In cities across America, black men are on the run. On April 4, 2015, in South Carolina, Walter Scott was killed while running away from a police officer. Eight days later, Freddie Gray ran from police in Baltimore. He was caught and later died in custody.
On this episode of Reveal, we explore the consequences of fleeing from the police through two stories, both set in Baltimore.
Head over to revealnews.org for more of our reporting.
Follow us on Facebook at fb.com/ThisIsReveal and on Twitter @reveal.
And to see some of what you’re hearing, we’re also on Instagram @revealnews.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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From the this for investigative reporting in p r ex, this is reveal a mallet in April twenty fifteen,
of Baltimore wanted under a thought it down in IRAN crawling around like a war hominem Bell Rang, there was ever bother walking down the street, they won't poor meal. So I picked up a boy. The protests started with death, pretty green between five you'll. Let me make eye contact with a police officer into government.
A group of cops chase and arrested him for carrying a knife. They loaded, Freddy, into
Please can where he fatal interests of day of his funeral unrest broke out its root causes with decades in the make, but many
People heard about what happened, afraid, gray and asked
Why did he run in first place in this?
We look at two cases of running from cops to try to answer that question its collaboration,
with w why Pr Baltimore, that was first broadcasting April of the two you innovate
of the unrest. Weeping
In on that night, twenty fifteen, the intersection of Pennsylvania in North that was Baltimore, was the epicenter of protest.
The whole army. If people ever stood taken, everything carried airbags. Actually, german leaders come now we're on appeal as a good come out with the tv afterwards honey, which I want. One apologies to spit blow a kiss. Do some sluggish do some good? Why do some all mom is wont to do everything we possibly more
not only has a we don't shoot us pray get the utility proliferation us the evening after four degrees, futile and this corner, Nunez PIN nor police and first largely hung back, is people's in bottles, sack stores in burned, empty police cars.
Started to write that we see the sea. Yes catch all far snow boomer respond to that call than their thrown to buy for people to see. Others could refer here, their mothers and grandmothers, but that day we were nobody's for. I was greatly pleased and tear gas protesters linked arms and formed a line and an uneasy com fell over the inspection in the haze, a line of police advanced one protesters beating their nights, dicks against Iraq.
Their night sticks against their right to choose reporter Mary Wilbur lives a mile from there and reconstructed. What happened next at pen nor tat evening. There was this iconic image.
An eerie photos and made headlines worldwide in the middle of a smoky intersect
a young man on the bike wearing a gas mask facing off against a line of riot cups, all kinds of people who were out at the intersection that protest doing your documenting, we're just watching noticed the guy on the bank raising one fist in the air.
We're not think of this area. When I think of pending overnight think that arise. I think of him with the gas mask.
Ride around on biogas know. Who is a gas may fly handy in recital I made him look phone call and he was looking like a damn king in a middle when his hands up every night,
tat. I was I was him. It was just
great, to see no fear that same young man wearing a red and gray hoodie also appeared a few minutes before. In the background of alive CNN report, while a porter was talking to a community activist
How far is it going to go as far as well as they take us as far as they take
What measures do you fear the reporter spun around to see water springing up into the air behind him?
if you just saw that they, just while we were talking there, just cut the hose with a knife trying to and then ran trying to thwart the efforts of the authorities to actually turn out this fire, a guy in the rating gray. Could you put the hearse twice with a pocket knife
What do you want to leave?
I'm not hungry,
man headed down the street on his by police,
were watching the couldn't spare the manpower to following the guy on the vital that was great butler,
I met him shortly. Afterward he was twenty one confidence trick smile.
For the past two years. I've gone with him to a dozen court appearances, and we talked a lot about what he did and why here's how he remembers the scene when he arrived at day yet most umbrella.
Great alarm between the police.
Kids on fire here, women crying-
gas cousin, our pollution thorn bottles.
sit back and just look. This is like why
This is my city
in the world now we understand,
was gone all of us and we stand for Gregg is from the more. He grew up in a rough part can with his two sisters. Sometimes this guy who's in and out of prison
rarely is mom who was in and out of prison and addicted to Herald mumbled being fought.
Five years old and I'm sleeping on the floor.
I see my mom days and I don't know my days and me,
our feet and my little sister, the kids relied on each sometimes went hungry, but grid was bright, focused, stay out of trouble
He became a basketball star literally level to war like a pillow captain of a team it.
More Polytechnic Institute for Polly, the most selective public high school in the city, you want a full right scholarship to college. Then
dad lost his job rigged, took on more hours at work with great slipped and he lost his scholarship shortly.
The unrest. He landed back in his old neighborhood, no longer s Fort STAR or college kids feeling like a failure
play some point. You feel defeated, you feel beating, like I can't get over the hot and I'm
I am the first version of a family go to college, but I don't
anybody, my family, Kimberly.
You can understand. It now needs more than ever the night before the unrest. Pilots hit close to home for Gregg, his good friends dad was killed, brig spent
evening with friends in a bar talking about people. They lost
back home in the We hours. He sat up, googling wondering if she
have a role to play in his city, not as a basketball star for some kind of activists,
every search the number of people killed. My city enough
Find out that was born in a year
the most worded and bottom line three three honey
and fifty three murders in one year still the deadliest on record
The familiarity return himself in the situation
Almost method is the next day when
heard what was happening. A pen north Gregg felt like he had to be there. A friend gave him a ride, most of the way in Luanda gas mask when he dropped Gregg near the smoky intersection. Grigg says he spotted an abandoned bike and hopped on after riding around awhile. He saw this fire hose that had just been hooked up to a hydrant. He felt in his hoodie for the pocket knife he always carried and he ran up and stabbed once then
in time a year and a half later he tried to tell me why he done it. The best away, the others plane is slight. We thought of everything
is whatever I'm done whatever I want to do,
nobody can tell me you know your cash me to my astonishment
You have been done by the day I'll do it am I what has been said
You wanna buy one door again, but in a moment
Ours, is a well an evening in twenty fifteen as watering down strangers.
Hi five and he did a little happy dance. There was caught on camera,
then he hung around the intersection four hours. Having intense conversations with strangers about how to fix Baltimore, he taken a risk and it
peered gotten away with it. Nobody gotten hurt them.
Fire chief Carl Zimmermann was in charge of the fire ground at Pennoned North that day afterward. He talk to me about what Gregg had done. Why would you.
Put a whole in the
had no idea what the results of his actions could be when you
away that water supply.
You get as far lemon said. Not
Nobody was out on the streets good service.
The went inside he pointed to his fire, and then these guys were cleaned up. What was on his way home at night,
smoke wait, spotted alluded, seven eleven, its class front door smashed out planning inside, went behind the counter and picked up a pack of cigarettes. Suddenly, plainclothes police, we ve been cases still ran in they ordered grid to the floor, searched in cotton and took him outside to wait for the transport van, but when it pulled up regulator,
Second part at all. You gotta, given the way close to catch me. The police
the catch me he used by higher if you didn't, buy our big guy.
I asked him why he ran this too early to Morrow.
Local answer is there
the landscape. What a day we do so
I don't know if the police heavy would they were really do, but also from the street point of view. They caught me too easy
You know a going way too easy. You gotta work for this great new once they booked him. Tat was it, but if he ran he had one last shot of freedom,
me either. If you ain't, just relax, get ready for your pain about us out great spent over
month in jail. He was eventually charged by the state of Maryland for running from cops and by the federal government for cutting the firehouse he faced up to twenty five years. For that, the morning of his state trial, the courthouse was a zoo, wide city, all waiting to get in word nine. Thirty this morning will eventually the defence will call the defended William Porter to the stand and William Port of first of six officers to be tried for Freddy Grace, death was on trial. Three floors down from Gregg the line to enter the building stretched down the block. The cafeteria have been converted into a media center and protestors gather
History does not deserve to go to work in a war of words,
we are in a constant, get off Scot free. The two does beat up pretty great. They could get convicted and not go to jail for as long as he would go for african Waterhole get the hell out of here.
first, a real few days
December twenty fifteen bread was shovel. Beckoned
with between Baltimore City detention, centre and state of federal courthouse
while his lawyer in state court painted Gregg as a novice wrong, do federal prosecutor, Philip Self portrayed Greg.
Criminal because Mr Butler violent areas,
the earliest date of birth, Gillies Hunters,
coupled with the fact that he was law enforcement, is the idea that he actually had a consciousness of bill associated with his Humph one of Griggs Federal public defenders. Lucius T outlaw countered. He said it was important to consider Griggs actions
context, this is a day where there was protests
writing and looting, because a young guy was put cost in terms of back there and then found dead
seeing a police officer, the natural instinct. Even me today bought agree.
Always even today. My natural instinct is to turn and go the other way because you don't know what happens
Mary Wilton, were brought a great story later this
our were here how it is,
The Justice Department put out a report on their investigation into the Baltimore Police Department, suggesting the young black men. May
a good reason to run for their lives when approach by Baltimore cops. When we come back to
I have another made, ran and lost his life you'll.
To reveal from the centre for investigative reporting and p r eggs
from this point of
investigative reporting and p r ex this is reveal a mallet after the protest following Freddy Grace death. Two years ago, the Justice Department investigated Bob
was police department. One of the main problems they found was
sheer number of times police chased African Americans import neighborhoods. Almost twenty years ago, the supreme
court said? Mealy running from the police in a high crime neighbourhood is suspicious behaviour and police have the right to pursue them.
Reporter Mary rose Madden covers the police for w wife. He are in Baltimore. She stumbled on it.
Case about another man like forty gray ran from the police, but, unlike Grey,
They ve got almost no attention when it happens. The story begins in an alley in West Baltimore,
It was the middle of the afternoon. In August, two thousand seven J Cook was getting into his car to go, get a money order to pay his rent. He could have walked
The grocery store is just a short walk away, but he was skittish a week earlier, J was robbed at gunpoint right here behind his apartment building and someone who saw to people in the alley watching him.
He took off them. Blackmail, wait! Tinctured, that's the description! The police called in later. They report that J was holding his arm tightly against his body, which today
signalled he was concealing a gun did Jane. No, they were cops. Accounts differ about whether or not they were in plain clothes or uniform, but it might not have
I don't even if he knew they workshops- it's not uncommon- for black men in Baltimore to take off running when the police start for them, and she had some brushes with the law in the past by wonderful J was running through streets and alleys. Finally, he reached this
overpass bordered by this chain link fence now that under rule forty runs through West Baltimore,
J squeezed through a narrow opening here and clung to the fence seventy feet above the highway.
back at the apartment, Jane fiance, Linda Hammond, who everyone
Most precious started wondering what was taking J so long.
She went outside to look for him. First,
want to friends and he's crying these
the debate. Galleys crying he's just saying. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I just a basket was wrong and he wouldn't tell me what was wrong. Precious found, the spare key jumped in the car and follow police sirens and helicopters to the bridge, and I looked dame-
and I see a shoe, you see she knew he was covered. I see his hand outside of the sheep and the police after eggs me do. I know who this person is and they took the sheet offers him J had fallen from the fancy was clinging to, and was
buy a car only thing I was told on that day. Was he fitted description
of a drug dealer. They robbed somebody.
So how did J end up dead and what
happened in the minutes before he fell into the highway. The radio dispatches that day tell only part of the story I went to see. You
father. My name is John Gideon. Could there
His name was John Gideon could before we always call them check.
Mr Cook and I sat together at the dining room table. He
through the Manila envelopes he'd carefully kept for ten years we would,
letters to the department
as this to our congressmen to the governor.
Asking I everybody for some time to help on what what took place here, Mr Cook, and his wife even found requests under the Freedom of Information ACT to get the answers they wanted. They were desperate to no more. I asked MR cook
tell me what he remembered about the day. J died as I warmer Fulton Avenue
some police activity,
I had no idea. It was about my son, who had just passed away.
When I got to the house precedent for me and surely the earth and my wife came home, but he had to tell her.
It hurts so much
I mean so so so much.
We didn't know why we didn't know what happened. We had no idea
But all we knew
the sun was no longer here. Mr Cook said he went to the police station for an.
There's, couldn't even get an incident report because he kept
installing me with it. Well, we still working on it.
We haven't completed yet the cops did tell Mr Kok that they found a gun on J, that's impossible. His dad thought no way was his son packing a gun years went by and the cook family wasn't any closer to finding out what
d J. That's why we dug in an initially
We were looking to sue the city we
just when it answers, but because
we couldn't get answers. We then felt as if we needed to get some legal counsel
The cooks hired a lawyer had been recommended by relative
Abby Yonah works out of a row house in Philadelphia. His first floor office is crammed with second hand furniture. He sits down at a large oak desk and starts to describe the case and he says blew his mind.
Eight years ago, when I think back to what happened to Mr Cook. You know sometimes
It gave me offset Abbe Yonah told the cooks to consider a civil law suit, but he told them they didn't have much time. Let me make it clear
this incident happened back in two thousand and seven, but it was
sometime in two thousand and nine that my clients first contacted me about it.
The years the cook family had spent trying to get answers on their own had put them dangerously close
to the three your mark, when the statue of limitations would run out IBM
had to act quickly, but he didn't have much to go on. First, he sent out
Private investigator and he found two witnesses who said they saw what happened that day at the fence. The ball
more police had. Finally, given the cook family, the incident report from August two thousand seven, it said quote officer,
in green was in the area when he noticed
individual who is suspected was in possession of a handgun a slight for pursuit ensued with
the two witnesses and the police report. Abbe filed a suit. It claimed that Jays constitutional rights were violated, starting with
Police first spotted Jane the alley and chased him. This said that the way he appeared it looked like he might of
a weapon on game is, it is saw a weapon. That's
enough is self
racially motivated and evaluation of its constitutional rights. Abbe filed a civil rights suit against the police commission.
Officers, Dwayne, Green and Raymond Howard, who are named in the incident report and the city of Baltimore.
The pre trial process got under way with discovery. Both sides are supposed to turn over
patents to each other by a mutually determined date, but the police department Didn T
over much at all, so Abbe Yonah felt a subpoena to get them to produce.
Everything they had related to the cook case. He also asked for the departments, policy and procedures on excessive force, stoppin frisk and how officers determine reasonable suspicion albuminous, as this in. For me
and was crucial to his case, if you're looking at the police department, where they have a custom and practice of just stopping I'm frisking black people more than eighty percent of that stop I'm phrase
does not in fact result in an arrest. That's it.
Skimming, stop turbine phrase. It is richer profile, which is part of my gaze, so
asking them to produce information that my support that leave the police said the documents about the departments, policies and procedures were privileged, but they said they would provide the files relating to J staff. The judge quickly ruled he said the police quote shouldn't be put to the expense of assembling the files, but he went further and said the police didn't have to turn over anything. Even the materials related to J Cook, the pre trial process wasn't going well for Abbe Yonah. He had to begin the depositions with little evidence and only one of his witnesses would testify
The police Sheridan Save number one in the deposition of Should because summers should make us. Summers lived across the street from the roof. Forty overpass and said that
afternoon of August Fourteenth two thousand seven she was sitting out.
On the steps to our house till the jeweler. What did you observe what it is as a home run? She Mika had a bad to think she speak slowly and in the deposition, video. You can see her holding her cheek, a warning. There's some offensive language here, ass, all cats running behind them, ass, long, walk up like on a bridge part and on what happened when he saw TAT, he was trying to hide in the bushes Fettes from the police they saw was shaken, offence was shooting, defense was a white cap. Chicken offence was shaken, assassin, com colleague, wounded, sunny was done mega.
Was saying jealousy, dont Nigger caught knock, the lawyer for the Baltimore Police Department also questioned Shoemaker, given that you weren't eye witness to this man following did you think it was important to go over and tell the police what you saw at the time? No, sir,
I want to talk to the police. Are we not in the video deposition? You see, should take a look at the lawyer for the police department in disbelief, her eyes wide.
As if she saying are you serious, I didn't want to talk.
It could do men say when I did so. You were
the police, because they would throw you over the wall to the high with love, what they may be sent back to the cap with the red hat that should make a mentioned a beyond, showed her photos the police had taken. Now I want you to go through the pages one at a time. Tell us if you recognize any other people there. That was among the first day
I recognise that cop was ass. The lungs chastened dodges want choosing jury knows what the office
I shall make a summers. Circled was Jared Freed Abbe,
I hadn't named him in the lawsuit, because his name was
in the police report
Cops who were named in the report were off.
Two Raymond Howard, an officer, Dwayne Green. So what did they say in their depositions? I beyond question green. First in the report he's the one who chased J to the fence to do
participate in any way shape or form regarding an incident at the root, forty overpass on all those watching, two thousand or so yes, upon hearing the four pursued I drove on the highway and they went thither, he was going to proceed to run on our way Green said: Keaton Chase J. He wasn't even at the fence that same day officer, Raymond Howard gave a deposition he's the officer who wrote inside the incident reporting in preparing your report. Did you talk to any police officers to get information as to how the accident happened? Yes, which offers digital power
He was on the procedural Green said he'd in Chase J. He wasn't even at the fence that same day officer, Raymond Howard gave a deposition he's. The officer who wrote in signed the incident report in preparing your report. Did you talk to any police officers to get information as to how the accident happened? Yes, we drove assisted her talk.
Bradley testified that he heard the dispatcher on his radio and arrived to see
hanging from the ledge of the highway overpass, he said
he immediately started trying to rescue J
my shirt, my pants getting over the fence. I finally got over the fence. Now when I saw him his face was looking up and then I was telling import or man I'm coming just hold on reached out the gravel fell. Like you take a minute in the video deputy
and you can see Bradley wipe away tears awash with full status, going the Sahel Bradley, whose african American described when another officer said to him after J, fell again a warning here about offensive language.
He said to me: you need to calm down. I don't know why you alright, it's just one less drug deal. We got to worry about one less piece of an officer said
This was one less nigger we have to do is say that too.
When Bradley described what happened at the fence. He named other police officers who worked in the incident report.
Two of them were named Angela, Joy and Jared freed. Remember. Freed was the off.
We should make a summers identified as chasing J to the fence that day zeal for so doing, green others- and I do not at this point- is clear.
You wanna had named the wrong cops and the lawsuit, because the wrong cops were named in the incident report. The report-
They gave to my client will totally false. There were other police documents and they confirmed but Officer Bradley had said
this freedom choice were at the fence, the died, the police,
parliament had that evidence in their custody the whole time and it
I've been handed over during discovery. Abalone, try to add
freed enjoy to the lawsuit
While the motion to the George letting them know this, I just newly discovered evidence.
That we did not have
changes everything, because
have been leading us to think. It was always a green that words immediately involve with my guide.
There's no other way to know what the judgment
I'd Abiola's motion. He said,
the procedural rules and Billina had Miss the deadline to add new parties to the suit of Vienna had had what he called ample time to
or in the real identities of the officers involved before filing the judge said. The plaintiffs had no one but themselves to blame the police abroad with internationally lied alive for years.
When we are told the truth from the beginning. There will not be an issue of a deadline, be missed, Appiano did make mistakes, and most glaring was that he sued a black officer for chasing J, even though the witnesses said the cop was why
In February two thousand eleven, the judge dismissed the lawsuit he wrote in his appeal.
That now Billina had shown due diligence that the police
acted in a way that shocked the conscience to the cops J was a suspicious character,
just another black guy running in Baltimore to his parents and precious. He was their kid. Their love scared for his life. He didn't have a gun.
He was born to the store to get a money order for different,
J have a gun none
The witnesses, even the police, saw him with one. What they did scene was office
a toy. Removing a from his body- and there are more questions where the
search chasing J in uniform or in plain clothes. I try to
have you officers join freed, the police department,
make them available and they never responded to private requests. I wanted to ask them: did officer freed shake the fence. J was clinging to
When I found this case and the local law library, I searched for any news stories. I could find about it. The Baltimore son Rhenish,
brief back in two thousand seven, the man who was killed Tuesday after he fell off a bridge over. U S! Forty, unless Baltimore well, fleeing from police officers was identified
yesterday, as a twenty five year old city man by violence,
at the time when I work at the Baltimore son was Gus G sentimental Gus used to work for the sun on the crime, be hearing
I heard the story right away when I asked him about it because it was so chilling, but he told me the circumstances around Jays death warrant unusual.
Back in two thousand seven, the police.
We're really require in these officers to to do stop and frisks
we'd have to submit, at the end of your chef how many stoppin frisks you dead, but a lot of this was tired
officer incentives, I dont think a lot of people understood
and how much of a numbers game policing, because
Baltimore Gus says the police Union President told him that police officers called their work,
vcr detail for violation of civil rights,
about ten years later, the Justice Department came about more in the wake of Freddy Grace death. Good morning today, the Department of Justice announces the outcome of our investigation and issues. A hundred and sixty three page report
detailing our findings. Their report made national news when it came out in August of two thousand sixteen. We conclude that there is reasonable cause to believe that BP engages in a pattern the practice of conduct that violates the constitution and federal antidiscrimination. The report confirmed what Abbe Yonah was trying to prove and his law suit for the cook family that the police used racial profiling that they used force excessively. The report even confirmed that some officers use the inward went on the job with no repercussions. The deal J report also
said: the Baltimore Police Department needed a clear cut policy on foot pursuits. I asked Police Commissioner Kevin Davis to respond. He took command of the forest and twenty fifteen.
So I wanted to ask you if there's a foot pursuit policy to guide officers, conduct impossible, there's training, but there's not a specific policy police officers chase bad guys, that's what we do so when we
a person whose engage in suspicious conduct and if that person runs, police officers should engage in four pursuits. That's what we do: war crime fighters. The deity also identified the police departments, serious lack of oversight and Jane case, someone filed an incident report that was inaccurate at best falsified. At worst, I asked
Commissioner Davis about this. Sometimes if the report's don't match its training issues, sometimes it's a disciplinary issue and then, from time to time it's it say it's an issue with truthfulness and and honesty. David said he has no problem holding his police officers accountable. He said he fired twenty three
officers in two thousand. Sixteen they didn't deserve to to represent this agency in our community.
So what happened to the officers and J cooks case Officer Howard, who got the facts wrong, and the report of juice death left the force a month after
the incident to become a police officer in Delaware, Heyward Bradley.
Cop who was there when she died, filed
discrimination suit of his own against the department several years later. The suit was dismay.
And Bradley is no longer a policeman. Angela,
It is still on the Baltimore police force. So is Jerry freed the cop a witness said shook them.
And J was hanging onto
That was a border very rose, maddened w why Pr Baltimore Jacob died after running from the cops but grid
those running with police had a different it in court.
Values principles and
who doesn't bring me harm, doesn't deserve. From my the surprising into Gregg. Storing coming up next com revealed
from the centre for investigative reporting it p r ex this is reveal a mallet
this hour with following the stories of two different black men in Baltimore, who ran from cops
We're gonna returned out a great butler he's the young man who became the poster child for the unrest in the city two years ago. He was twenty one at the time and cut a hole in a fire hose live on CNN,
when we left Gregg, he was on trial for running away from the police. That night has also been charged by the federal government for cutting the files reporter Mary Wilton Burg picks up Gregg story he's on trial. At the same time as the first officer charged in Freddy Grace, death and the city is bracing for protest outside Baltimores Federal,
The house, the city, was tense Sawyer, but inside you're becoming caused the case of the United States Forces Gregory, Leave Butler Junior, wait Butler facing two federal counts: obstruction of fire fighters during a civil disorder, one that carried a five year maximum sentence and aiding and abetting arson, which carried up to
twenty years desire as the hearing got under way, the prosecutor explained the Gregg was also on trial in state roaringly Butler do the job
interrupted. I wish it all over
ongoing trial. Right as we speak, your honour their. I lunch break ensuring that much
your father was brought over symbol
this? Marvellous? If you understand just, then he would be brought back over to circuit court at two thirty. This afternoon the judge was incredulous
as I say in Austria, and I feel it I know I know I think is right with problems. The judge had Gregg fitted with an ankle, monitor, told him to come back when his other trial was over and released him with just minutes to make it the seven blocks
back to circuit court. I started running with him through the midday traffic of downtown bottom because that bag, it look like
we move and you know who's Britain Court on a quorum is, we ran. Gregg talked about the serious federal charges you now
I was do rather my head because again I haven't seen any choice papers until I got typical over so I became murmurs of five. This ended there, but a new charges so our kind of this kind of problem
they could add up to twenty five years before DAWN Gregg said it bothered him that the Baltimore police officer being tried at the same time for the day,
Freddie Grey was enjoying more freedom, and he was all I know is he's longer
free and I got a resolute.
Morning. The jury and Gregg State case found him guilty of two charges. The first was attempted theft of under a hundred dollars. That's when he tried to take a pack of cigarettes from alluded, seven eleven. The second was escape in the second degree, for running from the Copsewood arrested him slighting, Griggs Youth and the fact that this was his first offence. The judge gave him pro
the charges could be expunged from his record after three years of good behaviour. Craig and I set off again so now really were straight from the surgical, writes a referral
format attention here and we're going to see if I can use
arrangements set up where's darkest they honestly and they will have no friend in the baby and give out my boy in six months rig was going to be a father for the first time it hit home that he might not be.
To meet his child? I feel that we want nor to the ground, and I was yesterday- we got back to the federal Court House Gregg set before the judge, his sisters in the gallery. The prosecutor, Philip seldom argued the gregg- should be locked up until his case came to trial. He brought up the CNN broadcast reasons
the great cutting the house, because I thought that you saw if you just saw that they just while we were talking there, just cut the hose with a knife and humans round. He had a clean,
you will see him on those cameras. Actually
engaging the camera when the camera does not engage him. He then takes the acts of kindness coastlines. Following that color
Mr Mulder has seen actually dancing then leave earlier. Greg's public defender rose in question,
Why Gregg was even being charged federally on air
the way the government is handling. This case is really just reinforcing their dynamic between law enforcement and residents of a city that got us here. In the first place it was important she sank to take into account what had happened in the sitting in April twenty fifteen and why it had happened to her. That was a historic
he did? Emotional and volatile moment in the history of this city is what Mr Bother is accused of doing here needs to be understood. Against that background, the prosecutor that send it didn't matter what the context one Gregg couldn't be trusted he'd like to police and tried to run from them. Then the prosecutor reeled off a list of petty your complaints like a mist, appearance and traffic Corti, looking bricks
they are fed, bringing met up suggested. The government was out of touch with the city. You lock up. How
the young man in Baltimore Sea, based on the same fears that the government is asserting here. That was day two of Griggs Federal case
the next three hundred and thirty one days were justice fractious the lawyer square,
GA emotions and hearings. Meantime, all
six cases against the police charged and pretty grace, damn ended without convictions and
more unrest in the city and grant and his girlfriend chastity became parents to a son, highly butler, withdrew into what are our souls are presently.
I was also made me cry. You just overwhelmed.
Just trying to figure out what is what is my legacy going to be fair, and what am I going to leave him? What am I going to help him grow into? What kind of man do I want to be?
leave unquestionable. What kind of man are you
What kind of man is Gregg? It's the question his federal case boiled down to what kind of guy pokes holes in it
our host, a criminal bent on hurting people or a frustrated kid who seized an opportunity to strike back?
two years. I've known grant he's been wrestling with the question. What kind of me
do I want to be his background pointed one way to wash your parents is drugs,
their price for drug addicts
there's no reason for me to go and because I'm a Downing street revolves
Oh I'm ready to go in any day, but these days his choices point in another day,
for my son to be in a place where I want him to be to excel academically to be a good person in our community. I have to lay the groundwork, so that's my life's work at this point. Eventually, Greg's lawyers persuaded the judge to throw out the more serious charge against him. He played guilty to the lesser one obstructing firefighters in November twenty sixteen days before the presidential election Gregg appeared in federal court. One last time
community, I have to leave at groundwork. So that's my life's work at this point. Eventually, Greg's lawyers persuaded the judge to throw out the more serious charge against him. He played
he was giving it already has. He was given a record,
wasn't allowed at this sentencing. Hearing things looked bad for Gregg, then something strange happened
Gregson earlier asked the judge if she could call a witness who was supposed to be testifying for the prosecution,
Baltimore Deputy Fire Chief Carl's amendment a year.
Earlier Zimmermann had spoken to me about Greg's, cutting the fire hose and the danger that put his firefighters and
turn around and put
their lives in jeopardy because you feel like you need to be liberated, doesn't really how a lot of water with us we're not realise that they are on the stand. Zimmermann took a different tone. He testified that granted showed up
The drug store had nearly burns down so stabbing the hose hadn't heard anyone then Griggs attorney asked him. Did he have an opinion about what breaks punishment should be and Zimmerman shocked the room by saying yes Community service, with the fire department
supervised by me,
when it was Griggs turn to speak. He stood wearing black framed glasses, a new Navy suit and a boat
the spitting image of one of his idle Malcolm X, a few nights earlier. He had sounded like Malcolm when we talked about why he thought people in Baltimore
you can tell the streets lively, work and live in this way since the firstly, we just saw we live.
Somebody's was fiercely religion Croton. So when you were black people film, I hear you watching me, but you can't
There is no telling what
wanna come archaic. My ancestors this week, a demi at this point later on rate, would tell me what he was thinking that moment in court when he stood
again, if you never said anything important in your life, this is what the hell you got. A lot of me in. I can add to partly in the back of my thinking like are the press is all- and this is the point-
we have people, you know what I mean. This is a poor people, tobacco and cry the great didn't. You started to apologise for the judge interrupted him. Why did you do it? My way
said next will gentler version of something he said to me a few nights earlier,
had been wrong to lump fire fighters and police together in his mind that day, through bars at the police, I saw designs then could everywhere, but fire fighters there
different firefighters likely will burn and buildings. So for many years back. I kin
be sorry. I can't do no want to make amends because at the end of day, I'm a man of values and principles and
Anybody who doesn't bring me harm doesn't deserve our minds when Gregg set down the judge delivered his sentence. Communities
no further jail time and a million dollars of restitution for the burned CBS drugstore to be paid a hundred dollars a month.
He wasn't condoning Greg's conduct the judge said, but the whole city was a victim of what had happened: people in the community, the fire fighters and the police. He said to Greg
I don't want to make EU another victim
I spoke to Griggs lawyer Liz Lawyer later in her office. She talked about how she felt when the Deputy fire chief agreed to testify on Griggs behalf. It never work,
like this, she said is also the first time in my career in this office. I've got an office ruler or years that I have seen anybody, Scotland,
the situation and do what they thought was right, regardless of how it might come back on them negatively.
Reaffirmed my fate humanity, a little as we know we don't even alive and Linda really
never prior to this. But this time was different behind the scenes, Greg situation and come to the attention of the city's emergency manager. Who got to know him like him. He lobbied colleagues in the fire department until they got behind the idea that sometimes a person needs a second chance when Greg thinks back now to April two thousand and fifteen. He comes back to the two famous images of him that day, the one of him in a gas mask stabbing a fire hose and that other one he's on a bike in a haze of smoke facing a line of cops in riot gear. Raising his fist in the air.
That picture says something about the kind of man. Gregg wants to be from their moment on a bike. It was this. He was a power that I had really heralded at that very second read two seconds it. I am afraid that I was the leader of the community. In a moment I thought police in opposition there. I've never seen him on the defensive
This freedom took over freedom took over and I wanted to let everybody around me. You know the day was reading. A great story came to us from May. Well, tomorrow, after the trial, Gregg met with the firefighters, whose homes he cut.
A file notes on our show. Earlier this year, the FBI
I did seven Baltimore police officers on federal racketeering charges. The plainclothes cops would charge with robbing citizens after chasing them on the streets. Doing traffic stops sometimes while searching homes right now more than a dozen police departments around the
country, including baltimores, are operating under illegal settlements, get the Justice Department attorney General
Session says this,
demoralising forlorn, for he was the federal government to stop policing the police, but after years of police misconduct or black citizen stick around to see how things play out or will they just keep on running?
Mary rose, Madden and Mary Wildenberg reported produces, show endeavoured. Joyce was a senior editor today show was a cobra
with w are your Baltimore are sound. Zante is Jim Briggs in clear moment there
this week from Kevin Raimondo, merrily Williams, our heads studios Chris Sharper Amy POW
editor in chief Susan,
whereas our executive editor and our executive producer scam in solving our theme, is ex by come around like support for reveals,
By the Raven David Local Foundation, the Ford Foundations, the John D and Catherine T Macarthur Foundation, the John
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always more to the story.
These are last few shows of the year, and let me tell you in twenty twenty we are bringing the fire launching some of our most ambitious projects we ve ever done. I can wait for you to hear them reveal, is all about going deep, pulling on threads
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Transcript generated on 2019-12-21.