In cities across America, black men are on the run. On April 4, 2015, in South Carolina, Walter Scott was killed while running away from a police officer. Eight days later, Freddie Gray ran from police in Baltimore. He was caught and later died in custody.
On this episode of Reveal, we explore the consequences of fleeing from the police through two stories, both set in Baltimore.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hey. It is your favorite host in all of pod custom. Now, for the rest of the year, I'm gonna be asking you to join us by becoming a member of reveal reveal is all about going deep, pulling on threads telling stories that matter for more than three years now reveal has been fighting a lawsuit. That's been jeopardizing our very existence of we're. We,
about an organization called planet aid. Our story raises serious questions about whether international aid was actually reaching the people. It was intended to help and what's more, our story was truthful and we stand by it. We believe it's our duty to fight attacks like this, but fighting a lawsuit comes at a huge costs, are legal fees alone totalled more than seven million dollars? Luckily, we have pro bono legal support to help our in house counsel, but it still takes significant resources, resources that should be used to do more public service journalists. This kind of investigative,
it takes time and it cost money. If you believe in the work, we do the absolute best way to support us is by becoming a member of reveal to do it just text. The word reveal two hundred and forty seven, four thousand seven hundred and forty seven standard data rates apply and you can text stop or cancel at any time
also all new members who donate at least five dollars a month. We get our facts, t shirt again just text. The word reveal two hundred and forty seven, four thousand seven hundred and forty seven
and all you who already support our work to offer offer a deep, sincere thanks. We can't do this work without being willing afforded twenty twenty. We have big things plan, so, let's go to some good work together from the centre for investigative reporting in p r. Ex this is reveal amount
Two years ago, the streets of Baltimore erupted in honour of it down in hot rod. Chronic honour would like a war. Hominem Bell rang. No one ever bother walking down the street they want for me. So I picked up a boy, the violent start.
After the death of Freddy Grey,
twenty five year old man made eye contact with police officer, took off running a group of
Jobs pursue him, arrested him for carrying a knife and load
into a policeman there.
Sustained spinal injuries. They killed him. Afterwards, unrest broke out in parts of the city. Its root causes would decades.
We make, but lots of people also asked
Freddie Gray, run in the first place in this. Our club.
Mission with W, why Pr Baltimore we look at you,
more cases of running from cops that reveal some truths about policing in courts will start
that night two years ago at the unit
action of Pennsylvania and North avenues in West Baltimore, which became the epicenter of protest and loot
you seem like a whole army of people. Just every stood taken, everything everything
Canada is actually show in ITALY was come now we're on appeals. They could come out with the tv off the world inside you reply, which I won
the police to spit blow a kiss do some, so I can do that. Do some moments.
Moth has? Are we don't shoot us pray get the utility proliferation does the evening after four degrees, futile and this corner notice. Pin nor police at first largely hung back. Is people's in bottles sack stores in burned, empty police car,
then the fire trucks started arriving. That we see the city s kitchen, fire slope, respond to that call than their throne or to buy for these people to see others undertake here their mothers and grandmothers, but that day we were nobody's frame. It was. It was greatly pleased him, tear gas protesters, linked arms and formed a line and an uneasy com fell over the inception in the haze, a line of police advanced on protesters beating their night.
Six against their righteous reporter Mary Wilbur lives more from there and reconstructed. What happened next at pen nor tat evening there was this image
an eerie photo the made headlines worldwide in the middle,
Smokey intersection a young man on the bike wearing a gas mask facing off against a line of riot cups, all kinds of people who are out at the intersection that protests doing or documenting we're just watching noticed the guy on the bank raising one fist in the air
we're not think of this area, when I think of pending overnight, think that arise. I think of him with the gas mask,
Ride around on biogas know, who is a gas, may fly handy in recital I made him a phone call and he was looking like a damn king in a middle when his hands up every night.
Tat I wish I was him it was just
great to see. No fear that same young man wearing a red and gray hoodie also appeared a few minutes before. In the background of alive CNN report, while a porter was talking to a community activist
How far is it going to go as far as well as they take us as far as they take
what does it mean to fear the reporter spun around to see water springing up into the air behind him?
if you just saw that they, just while we were talking there, just cut the new posts with a knife trying to and then ran trying to thwart the efforts of the authorities to actually turn out this fire. A guy in the rating gray hoodie took the hearse twice with a pocket knife.
What do you want to leave?
I'm not hungry
women who have any
man headed down the street on his by police?
for watching the couldn't spare the manpower to following the guy
the that was great butler
I met him shortly. Afterward he was twenty one confident bricks
Has two years. I've gone with him to a dozen court appearances, and we talked a lot about what he did and why here's how he remembers the scene when he arrived at day yet most umbrella.
Great alarm between the police
kids on vice chairwoman crying,
gas cousin our pollution, thorn bottles?
and I will use
bag, and just look at the sly. Why
in a world? No, we honestly
was gone. All of us and we stand for Gregg is from the more. He grew up in a rough part camp.
Two sisters, sometimes his death, who is in and out of prison and rarely is mom
not a prison and addicted to Herald mumbled been.
Five years old and I'm sleeping on the floor,
and I have seen my mom days- and I don't know my days and me-
system of feet and my little sister, the kids relied on each sometimes went hungry, but Gregg was bright, focused stay out of trouble. He became
Basketball star literally slept with the war like a pillow captain of a team, it,
more Polytechnic Institute for Polly, the most selective public high school in the city. You want a full right scholarship to college, then
dead lost his job rigged took on more hours at work with great slipped and he lost his scholarship.
Before the unrest, he landed back in his old neighborhood, no longer at Fort STAR apology feeling like a failure,
But at some point you feel defeated you feel beating, like I can't get over the hot and I'm
I am the first version and I family it go to college, but I don't
if anybody my family timber,
you can understand it. Now I need more than ever the night before the unrest. Pilots hit close to home for Gregg his good friends dad was killed, brig spent the
with friends, are talking about people, they lost
back home in the wee hours. He sat up googling wondering if she might have
to play in his city, not as a basketball star, but as some kind of activists of research
people kill my city.
I doubt that was born in a year.
Most worded in bottom, ninety, three, three hundred
Fifty three murders in one year, still the deadliest on record
between himself in the situation,
the next day when he heard what was happening. A pen north Gregg felt like he had to be there.
Heard what was happening. A pen north Gregg felt like he had to be there. A friend gave him a ride, most of the wet in London. A gas mask when he dropped Gregg near the smoky intersection. Grig says he spotted an abandoned bike and hopped on after riding around awhile. He saw this fire hose that had just been hooked up to a hybrid. He felt in his hoodie for the pocket knife he always carried and he ran up and stabbed once that a second time a year and a half later, he tried to tell me why he done the best way
We talk of everything is whatever I'm dome. Whenever I wanna do out is, is nobody can tell me, you know, broadcast media,
Nobody can tell me, you know your cash. Myanmar
a girl, a bender by the day I'll, do what I say
twenty one by one door again, but in a moment
nonetheless as well.
Evening. Twenty fifteen, as watering down strangers
Odin High five and he did little happy dance, there was caught on camera.
Then he hung around the intersection four hours. Having intense conversations with strangers about how to fix Baltimore, he taken a risk
appeared he'd gotten away with it. Nobody gotten her Debbie
fire chief Carl Zimmermann, was in charge of the fire grounded pennoned north that day afterward. He talk to me about what great had done. Why would you
put a whole in those
I had no idea what the results of his actions could be when you
away that water supply
You get as far lemon said not
nobody was out on the streets good service.
Baltimore went inside, he pointed to his fire, and then these guys were cleaned up. What was on his way home at night
in a small way, spotted alluded: seven eleven class front door smashed out planning inside, went behind the counter and picked up a pack of cigarettes. Suddenly, plainclothes police, we ve been cases still ran in. They ordered Gregg to the floor, searched in cotton and took him outside to wait for the transport van, but when it pulled up regulator,
second part. I took off gotta help me get in the way it close to catch me. The police
was it a big Kashmir me he used the bite there. If you don't get it
I will be able to go
Ask him why he ran there's two ass. Today,
political asset is there,
the landscape. What a day we do so
I don't know if the police had me what they were really do, but
so from the street point of view. They caught me too easy
You know a costly way too easy. You gotta work for this great new once they booked him. Tat was it, but if he ran he had one last shot: freedom,
me, if you ain't, just relax, get ready for your pain about us out. Great spent over
month in jail, he was eventually charged by the state of Maryland for running from cops and by the federal government for cutting the firehouse he faced up to twenty five years. For that, the morning of his state trial, the courthouse was a zoo, wide city, all waiting to get in word, not burden sporting will. Eventually, the defence will call the defended William Porter to the stand and William Porter acts. The first of six officers to be tried for Freddy Grace death was on trial,
three floors down from Gregg the line to enter the building stretched down the block the cafeteria have been converted into a media center and protestors gathered across the street. Shot does not deserve
broken a war of words.
We are in a constant, get off Scot free. The two guys beat up pretty great. They could get convicted and not go to jail for as long as he would go for african Waterhole get the hell out of here
first a real few days
December twenty fifteen bread was shut
back and forth between Baltimore City detention, centre and state of federal Porthos
while his lawyer in state court painted Gregg as a novice wrong, do federal prosecutor, Philip Self portrayed, Greg Trade Gregg
In criminal because Mr Butler providing areas
the earliest date of birth, Gillies hunters.
Coupled with this idea was law enforcement is the idea that he actually had a consciousness of bill associated with his hunger, one of Griggs Federal Public defenders, Lucius T outlaw counteract. He said it was important to consider Griggs actions.
Context. This is a day where there was protests.
Writing and looting, because a young man games point in cause impulse back there and then found dead.
Seeing a police officer. The natural instinct even me today,
There are three polish
today. My natural instinct is determined, go the other way because you don't know what happens
Mary Wilton were brought a great story later this hour.
We're here how it is.
The Justice Department, without a report on their investigation into the Baltimore Police Department, suggesting the young black men may.
Good reason to run for their lives when approach by Baltimore cops. When we come back
I have another made, ran and lost his life you'll
turning to reveal from the centre for investigative reporting and p r eggs,
from the centre for investigative reporting and p r ex this is revealed a mallet after the protests following Freddy Grace death two years ago, the justice
Parliament investigated Baltimores Police department. One of the main problems they found was the sheer number of times police
EAST African Americans import neighborhoods almost twenty years ago, the Supreme Court
it merely running from the police in a high crime. Neighbourhood is suspicious behaviour and police have the right to pursue them
reporter Mary rose. Madden covers the police for w wife. He are in Baltimore. She stumbled on
case about another man like pretty great ran for the police, but unlike grey
They ve got almost no attention when it happens. The story begins in an alley in West Baltimore.
It was the middle of the afternoon. In August of two thousand seven J Cook was getting into his car to go, get a money order to pay rent he could have walked.
Grocery store is just a short walk away, but he was skittish a week earlier. J was robbed at gunpoint right here behind his apartment building and someone who saw to people in the alley watching him.
He took off or blackmail, wait, Tinctured, that's the description. The police called in later. They report that J was holding his arm tightly against his body which to them signalled he was concealing a gun. Did you know they were cops? Accounts differ about whether or not they were in plain clothes or uniform, but it might not have mattered. Even if he knew they workshops, it's not uncommon for black men in Baltimore to take off running when the police start for them and cheat had some brushes with the law. In the past language like what
J was running through streets and alleys. Finally, he reached this overpass bordered by this chain link fence. Now that all your back on the roof, forty runs through West Baltimore jeez squeeze through a narrow opening here and clung to the fence. Seventy feet
back at the apartment J.
Fiance, Linda Hammond, who everyone
most precious started wondering what was taking J so long she went out
tied to look for him,
Lastly, one Jays friends and he's crying he's running
the back alley crying he's just saying. I'm sorry, I'm sorry,
I just a basket was wrong and he wouldn't tell me what was wrong. Precious found, the spare key jumped in the car and followed police sirens and helicopters to the bridge, and I looked Dame
Can I see a shoe, you see she knew he was covered fees. Hayin outside of the issue
In the police, after eggs me do
HU, this person is, then they took, the heat off of ham, J had fallen from the fancy, was clinging to and was hit
a car only thing I was told on that day. Was he fitted
corruption of a drug dealer there
somebody so how D J end up dead
and what happened in the minutes before he fell into the highway. The radio dispatches that day tell only part of the story. I went to see
His father, my name, is John Gideon could that there was
His name was John Gideon before we always called in check.
Mr Cook and I sat together at the dining room table. He
through the Manila envelopes he'd carefully kept for ten years. We would,
Letters to the department
justice to occur
asking. I everybody for some time to help on what what took place here, Mr Cook, and his wife even filed requests under the Freedom of Information ACT to get the answers they wanted. They were desperate to no more. I asked Mr Cook.
To tell me what he remembered about the day. J died as I warmer Fulton Avenue.
Some police activity.
I had no idea
was about my son, who had just passed away.
When I got to the house
for me and surely the earth and my wife came up here to tell her.
It hurts so much
I mean so so so much.
We didn't know why we didn't know what happened. We had no idea,
but all we knew.
Is it our sun was no longer here. Mr Cook said he went to the police station for an
There's couldn't even get an incident report because he kept
installing me with it: well, we still working on it
we haven't completed. Yet the cops did tell Mr Kok that they found a gun on J, that's impossible. His dad thought no way was his son packing a gun years went by and the cook family wasn't any closer
finding out what happened to J. That's why we dug in
initially we were
looking to sue the city, we
this one and answers, but because-
three couldn't get answers. We then felt as if we needed to get some legal counsel.
The cooks hired a lawyer had been recommended by relative.
Abby Yonah works out of a row house in Philadelphia. His first floor office is crammed with second hand furniture. He sits down at a large oak desk and starts to describe the case and he says blew his mind.
Eight years ago, when I think back to what happened to Mr Cook
sometimes it gave me offset Abbe Yonah told the cooks to consider a civil law suit, but he told them they didn't have much time. Let me immediately
this incident happened back in two thousand and seven, but it was
Some time in two thousand and nine that my clients first contacted about it.
The years. The cook family had spent trying to get answers on their own had put them dangerously close to the three your mark, when the statute of limitations would run out, I'm gonna have to act quickly, but he didn't have much to go on. First, he sent out a private investigator and he found two witnesses who said they saw what happened that day at the fence the Baltimore police had. Finally, given the cook family, the incident report
from August? Two thousand seven, it said quote officer, Dwayne Green was in the area when he noticed an individual. Who is this?
did was in possession of a handgun a slight for pursuit ensued with just the two witnesses and the police report. Abbe Yonah filed a suit. It claimed that Jays constitutional rights reviled.
Starting when the police first spotted Jane the alley and chased him a move. This said that
The way he appeared it looked like he might have had a weapon
Nor is it he saw a weapon, that's
was racially motivated and evaluation of its constitutional rights. Abbe Yonah filed a civil rights suit against the police commission.
Officers, Dwayne, Green and Raymond Howard, who are named in the incident report and the city of Baltimore pretrial process, got under way with discovery. Both sides are supposed to turn over evidence to each other by a mutually determine date, but the police department in turn over much at all, so Abbe Yonah felt a subpoena to get them to produce everything they had related to the cook case. He also asked for the departments, policy and procedures on excessive force, stoppin frisk.
And how officers determine reasonable suspicion and the onus as this information was crucial to his case. If you look at the police department, where we have a custom and practice of Jos, stopping I'm frisking black people
more than eighty percent. Of that stop I'm phrased does not in fact
resolved in an arrest. That's it.
Screaming tourist above, whereas it is richer profile which is
mobilise gaze so on.
Asking them to produce information that my support that leave the police said the documents about the departments, policies and procedures were privileged, but they said they would provide the files relating to J staff. The judge quickly ruled he said the police quote shouldn't be put to the expense of assembling the files, but he went further and said the police didn't have to turn over anything. Even the materials related to J Cook, the pre trial process wasn't going well for Abbe Yonah. He had to begin the depositions with little evidence, and only one of his witnesses would testify against the police. Sheridan signal Rwanda, deposition of should be Kosovars, should make a summers lived across the street from the roof, forty overpass and said,
on the afternoon of August Fourteenth two thousand seven. She was sitting outside on the steps to her house till they do. What did you observe what it is as a home run? She Mika had a bad to think she speak slowly and in the deposition, video. You can see her holding her cheek, a warning. There's some offensive language here, ass, all cops running behind them, ass long, walk up like on a bridge.
What happened. What you saw that he was trying to hide in the bushes Fettes found a police they saw was shaken, offence was shaken, defense was a white cap. Shaken offence was shaken assessment com colleague, wounded chance. Annual down mega was saying, do was dominated the cap, nor could I heard
The lawyer for the Baltimore Police Department also question shimmy God, given that you weren't eye witness to this man falling. Did you think it was important to go over and tell the police which he saw at the time? No, sir?
I want to talk to the police. Are we not in the video deposition? You see, should take a look at the lawyer for the police department in disbelief her eyes wide, as if she saying are you serious, as did the tall,
you're gonna, tell me to say where they did. So you afraid
the police, because they would throw you over the wall to the high with love. What they may be sent back to the cap with the red hat that should make a mentioned a beyond showed her photos the police had taken. Now I want you to go through the pages one at a time. Tell us if you recognize any other people there. That was among the first day,
I recognise that caught was that's. Why was chasing budgets you want choosing during those for the officer should make a summers circled was carried freed.
I'll be on ahead. It named him in the lawsuit because his name wasn't in the police report. The cops who were named in the report were officer. Raymond Howard, an officer Dwayne Green. So what did they say in their depositions Abbe Yonah questioned Green first in the report he's the one who chased
the did you ever participate in any way, shape or form regarding an incident at the root, forty overpass on all those watching, two thousand or so.
Yes, you upon hearing the four pursued I drove on the highway and they went thither. He was going to proceed to run on our way Green said he didn't chase J. He wasn't even at the fence that same day officer, Raymond Howard gave a deposition he's. The officer who wrote in signed the incident
in preparing your report, did you talk to any police officers to get information as to how the accident happened? Yes, we drove us as they do talk, how we're told Abbe Yonah that he talked to a detective who derived after Jeez death was to talk to.
I didn't talk anybody else. The information that was given to me was that officer Green was the person that was chasing job so officer, Howard wrote the police report using only second hand, information. One more officer gave a deposition officer. Heyward Bradley testified that he heard
the dispatcher on his radio and arrived to see J hanging from the ledge of the highway overpass. He said
he immediately started trying to rescue J a cut. My shoe my pants didn't over the fence. I finally got over the fence. That's when I saw him his face was looking up.
And I was telling import or man I'm coming just hold on reached out the gravel self. Let you take a minute in the video deposition you can see. Bradley
wipe away tears, wash them for over a status
the Sahel Bradley, whose african American described what another officer said to him after J fell again, a warning here about offensive language.
To me you need to calm down. I don't know why you are right, it's just one less drug deal. We got to worry about one less piece of shit. An officer said
This is one less nigger we have to do is say that too, when Bradley described what happened at the fence, he named other police officers who worked in the incident report. Two of them were named Angela, Joy and Jared free.
Remember freed was the officer should make US summers identified as chasing J to the fence. That day, did you see over so doing green others- and I do not at this point- is clear: Abbe Yonah had named the wrong cops and the lawsuit, because the wrong cops were named in the
didn't report. The report's daddy gave to my client was totally false.
There were other police documents and they confirmed what officer Bradley had said officers free
enjoy were at the fence. The day J died the police
parliament had that evidence in their custody the whole time and it
I've been handed over during discovery, abalone, try to add freed
joy to the lawsuit
filed a motion to the George, letting them know this. I just newly discovered evidence
that we do not have.
Changes everything because
We have been leading us to think it was always a green that was initially involve with my client,
There was no other way to know that the judgment
I'd Abiola's motion he said,
the procedural rules and Billina had Miss the deadline to add new parties to the suit and beyond. It had had what he called ample time tunnel.
When the real identities of the officers involved before filing the judge said the plaintiffs had no one but themselves to blame the police abroad with international
light and life for years, and we ve got told the truth from the beginning.
Don't be an issue of a deadline, be missed, abalone did make mistakes. The most glaring was that he sued a black officer for chasing J, even though the witnesses said the cop was why,
in February, two thousand eleven the judge dismissed the lawsuit he wrote in his opinion,
that now Beyond hadn't shown due diligence that the police hadn't acted in a way that shocked the conscience to the cops J was a suspicious
order just another black guy running in Baltimore to his parents and precious. He was their kid. Their love scared for his life. He didn't have a gun.
He was born to the store to get a money order, for it did j have a gun
none of the witnesses. Even the police saw him with one. What they did see was officer.
Joy, removing a guy from his body- and there are more questions where the officers chasing J in uniform or in plain clothes. I try to interview officers join freed
the police department, wouldn't make them available and they never responded to private requests. I wanted to ask them: did officer freed shake the fence J was clinging to when I found this case in the local law library. I searched for any news stories I could find about it.
Baltimore son ran a short brief back in two thousand seven, the man who was killed Tuesday after he fell off a bridge over. U S, forty. Unless Baltimore, while fleeing from police officers, was identified,
yesterday as a twenty five year old city man
a byline at the time- and I worked at the Baltimore Son- was Gus G sentimental Gus used to work for the sun on the crime, be hearing
I the story right away when I asked him about it because it was so chilling, but he told me the circumstances around Jays death warrant unused
back in two thousand seven, the police,
We're really requiring these officers to to do stop and frisks
You would have to submit at the end of your chef, how many stop and frisks you dead, but a lot of
was tied to officer incentives. I dont think a lot of people
understand how much of a numbers game policing
became in Baltimore Gus says the police Union President told him that police officers called their work, vcr detail for violation of civil rights,
about ten years later, the Justice Department came to Baltimore in the wake of Freddy Grace, death
morning today. The department of Justice announces the outcome of our investigation, and
is a hundred and sixty three page report detailing our findings, their report,
made national news when it came out in August of two thousand sixteen. We conclude that there is reasonable cause to believe that eating engages in a pattern, a practice of conduct that violates the constitution and federal antidiscrimination. The report confirmed what Abbe Yonah was trying to prove and his law suit for the cook family that the police used racial profiling that they used force excessively. The report even confirmed that some officers use the inward went on the job with no repercussions. The deal J Report also said the Baltimore Police Department needed a clear,
caught policy on foot pursuits. I asked Police Commissioner Kevin Davis to respond. He took command of the force and twenty fifteen. So I wanted to ask you if there's a foot pursuit policy to guide officers, conduct Ambrose, there's trimming, but there's no specific policy police
there's chase bad guys. That's what we do so
We see a person whose engage in suspicious conduct and if that person runs
police officers should engage in four proceeds. That's what we do: war crime fighters. The deal J also identified the police departments, serious lack of oversight and Jane case, someone filed an incident report that was inaccurate at best falsified at worst. I asked Commissioner day
about this, sometimes, if the report's don't match its training issues, sometimes it's a disciplinary issue and then from TAT
the time its. It say it's an issue with truthfulness and and honesty. David said he has no problem holding his police officers accountable. He said he fired twenty three officers
in two thousand. Sixteen they didn't deserve to to represent this agency in our community.
So what happened to the officers and J cooks case Officer Howard, who got the facts wrong, and the report of juice death left the force a month after the insight,
to become a police officer in Delaware. He would Bradley the black cop
there when she died, filed a discrimination suit of his own against the department. Several years later, this year,
was dismissed and Bradley is no longer a policeman. Angela choice,
is still on the Baltimore police force, so
Jerry freed, the cop a witness said, shook the fence,
J was hanging onto
that was reported very rose, maddened w why Pr Baltimore Jacob died after running from the cops but bread, but Lisbon.
With the police had a different it in court.
The values principles and
Body who doesn't bring me harm doesn't deserve from the surprising into Gregg. Storing coming up next revealed
therefore investigative reporting it p r ex this is reveal a mallet at this hour.
We're following the stories of two different black men in Baltimore who ran from cops.
We're gonna returned out a great butler he's the young man who became the poster child for the unrest in the city two years ago. He was twenty one at the time and cut a hole in a fire. Hose live on CNN
when we left Gregg. He was on trial for running away from the police. That night has also been charged by the federal government for cutting the files reporter Mary Wilton Burg picks up Gregg story he's on trial. At the same time as the first officer charged in Freddy Grace, death and the city is bracing for protest outside Baltimores Federal
the House, the city, was tense Sawyer, but inside you're becoming caused the case of the United States Forces Gregory, Leave Butler Junior, wait Butler facing two federal counts: obstruction of fire fighters during a civil disorder, one that carried a five year maximum sentence and aiding and abetting arson which carried up to
Twenty years desire as the hearing got under way. The prosecutor explained the Gregg was also on trial in state roaringly butler. Do the job
interrupted. I wish it all over
ongoing trial right as we speak, your honour their? I lunch break ensuring that much
Your father was brought over symbol
this marvellous. If you understand just, then he would be brought back over to circuit court at two thirty. This afternoon the judge was incredulous.
As I say in Austria, and I feel it I know I know I think is right with problems. The judge had Gregg fitted with an ankle, monitor, told him to come back when his other trial was over and released him with just minutes to make it the seven blocks
back to circuit court. I started running with him through the midday traffic of downtown bottom, because that bag a look,
like how we move, and you know who's Britain Corner on a quorum is. We ran. Gregg talked about the serious federal charges you now
I was gonna do matter my head because again, I haven't seen any choice papers until I got typical over so I became rumours of five. This ended there, but a news to charges so our kind of this kind of problem
they could add up to twenty five years before DAWN Gregg said it bothered him that the Baltimore police officer being tried at the same time for the day
the grey was enjoying more freedom, and he was all I know. Is he swung
I got a resolute the net
morning. The jury and Gregg State case found him guilty of two charges. The first was attempted theft of under a hundred dollars. That's when he tried to take a pact.
Cigarettes from alluded, seven eleven. The second was escape in the second degree, for running from the Copsewood arrested him, citing Griggs Youth and the fact that this was his first offence. The judge gave him probation. The charges could be expunged.
From his record after three years of good behaviour. Craig and I set off again so now- really restricts the surgical, alright city federal court.
Format attention here and we're going to see. If I can use some array
set up with dark ass. They only three. They will have no friend in the baby and give out my boy in six months rig was going to be a father for the first time it hit home that he might not be
to meet his child. I feel that we want nor to the ground, and I was yesterday- we got back to the federal Court House Gregg set before the judge, his sisters in the gallery. The prosecutor, Philip seldom argued the Gregg, should be locked up until his case came to trial. He brought up the CNN broadcast reasons.
The cutting the house, because I thought you saw if you just saw that they just while we were talking there, just cut the hose with a knife and humans round. He had a clean
You will see him on those cameras. Actually,
engaging the camera when the camera does not engage him. He then takes the acts of kindness coastlines. Following that, color
Mr Mulder, has seen actually dancing industry then leave earlier Greg's public defender rose in question.
Why Gregg was even being charged. Federally on air
The way the government is handling this case is really just reinforcing their dynamic between law enforcement and residents of a city that got us here. In the first place, it was important I have said to take into account what had happened in the sitting in April twenty fifteen and why it had happened to her. That was a historic,
he did emotional and volatile moment in the history of this city is what Mr Bother is accused of doing here is to be understood. Against that background, the prosecutor, the said it didn't matter what the context one was a great couldn't be trusted he'd like to police and tried to run from them. Then the prosecutor reeled off a list of petty your complaints like a mist, appearance and traffic Corti. Looking bricks
They are fed bringing met up suggested. The government was out of touch with the city. You lock up. How
the young man in Baltimore Sea, based on the same fears that the government is asserting here? That was day two of Griggs Federal case
the next three hundred and thirty one days were justice fractious. The lawyer Square
emotions and hearings. Meantime, all
six cases against the police charged and pretty grace. Damn ended without convictions and
more unrest in the city and grant and his girlfriend chastity became parents to a fund highly butler withdrew into what are. Our souls are presently
I was so surprised it make me cry, you just overwhelmed just trying to figure out what is what is my legacy going to be fed? What am I going to leave him? What am I going to help him grow into what kind of man I want to be?
you questionable. What kind of man are you?
What kind of man is Gregg? It's the question his federal case boiled down to what kind of guy pokes holes in it
our host, a criminal bent on hurting people or a frustrated kid who seized an opportunity to strike back
Two years, I've known grant he's been wrestling with the question. What kind of me,
Do I want to be his background pointed one way to wash your parents is drugs,
for drug. You know it's no reason for me to go and because I'm a Downing street regardless
I'm ready to go in any day, but these days his choices point in another day
for my son to be in a place where I want him to be to excel academically to be a good person in our community. I have to lay the groundwork. So that's my life's work at this point. Eventually, Greg's lawyers persuaded the judge to throw out the more serious charge against him. He played guilty to the lesser one obstructing firefighters in November. Twenty sixteen days before the presidential election Gregg appeared in federal court one last time
to be sentenced. The prosecution wanted three years of jail time and restitution to the tune of almost three million dollars. Nor followed your story. He was,
he was giving it already has. He was given a record
wasn't allowed. At this sentencing. Hearing things looked bad for Gregg, then something strange happened,
Gregson lawyer asked the judge if she could call a witness who is supposed to be testifying for the prosecution.
Baltimore Deputy Fire Chief Carl's in a year
earlier Zimmermann had spoken to me about Greg's, cutting the fire hose and the danger that put his firefighters and to turn around and port
their lives in jeopardy because you feel like you need to be liberated, doesn't really how a lot of water with us we're not realise that they are on the stand. Zimmermann took a different tone. He testified that granted showed up.
The drugstore had nearly burnt down so stabbing the hose hadn't heard anyone then Griggs attorney asked him. Did he have an opinion about what Griggs punishment should be an Zimmerman, shocked the room by saying yes, community service with the fire department,
supervised by me when it was Griggs turn to speak. He stood wearing black framed glass
a new Navy suit and about the spitting image
one it is idle, Malcolm X, a few nights earlier. He had sounded like Malcolm when we talked about why he thought people in Baltimore,
taking to the streets, lively work and live in this way since the firstly, we just saw, we live
Somebody's wasn't from sleep,
Jim Crow. So when you were black people film, like yeah, you watching me, but you can't stop me
is no tell it was
wanna come archaic. My ancestors this week, a demi at this point later on rate, would tell me
He was thinking that moment in court when he stood to address the judge
If you never said anything important in your life, this is what the hell you gotta. You don't owe me in our can aid to partly Rebecca my thinking, like are the press all, and this is the point
We have people, you know what I mean. This is a poor people, tobacco and cry the great didn't. He started to apologise for the judge interrupted him. Why did you do it
said next, will gentler version of something he said to me a few nights earlier,
had been wrong to lump fire fighters and police together in his mind that day, through bars at the police. I saw because I was then put everyone, but fire fighters. There
different firefighters likely will burn and buildings. So for many years back, I kin.
Be sorry I can't do no want to make amends because at end of day, I'm a man of values and principles, and
anybody who doesn't bring me harm doesn't deserve our minds. When Gregg set down the judge delivered his sentence communities
no further jail time and a million dollars of restitution for the burned CBS drugstore to be paid a hundred dollars a month,
He wasn't condoning Greg's conduct the judge said, but the whole city was a victim of what had happened: people in the community, the fire fighters and the police. He said to Greg,
I don't want to make you another victim,
I spoke to Griggs lawyer Liz Lawyer later in her office. She talked about how she felt when the Deputy fire chief agreed to testify on Griggs behalf it never,
works like this, she said is also the first
I'm in my career in this office have been in the office for a little over four years that I have seen anybody just going to.
The situation and do what they thought was right, regardless of how it might come back on them. Negatively
reaffirmed my fate humanity, a little as we know we don't even alive and Linda really
Never prior to this, but this time was different behind the scenes, Greg situation and come to the attention of the city's emergency manager, who got to know him and like him, he lobby, colleagues, in the fire department, until they got behind the idea that sometimes a person needs a second chance when Greg thinks back now to April two thousand and fifteen. He comes back to the two famous images of him that day, the one of him in a gas mask stabbing a fire hose and that other one he's on a bike in a haze of smoke facing a line of cops in riot gear. Raising his fist in the air.
That picture says something about the kind of man Gregg wants to be from their moment on a bike. It was this. He was a power that I had really heralded at that very second read two seconds it. I am afraid that I was the leader of the community. In a moment, I thought police in opposition there. I've never seen him on the defensive,
just today he's doing his community service, the Baltimore Fire Marshal Office. A couple final notes to our show. In March, the FBI indicted seven Baltimore police officers,
Rick story came to us from Mary will timber recently Gregg met with the firefighters, whose homes he cut and apologized.
Day. He's doing, is community service in the Baltimore Fire Marshal Office,
a couple final notes to our show. In March, the FBI indicted seven Baltimore police officers on federal racketeering charges. The plainclothes cops were charged with robbing citizens after chasing them on street, during traffic stops, and sometimes while searching their homes right now more than ever.
Twenty police departments around the country, including baltimores, are operating under legal settlements. With the Justice Department, newly appointed attorney General Jeff sessions,
Is this demoralising for law enforcement? He wants the federal government to stop policing the police,
but after years of police misconduct or black citizen stick around to see how things play out, or will they just keep on running
Mary rose, men and Mary Wilton Verb reported produces, show endeavoured. Joyce was a senior editor. Today show was a cobra
with W wipe your Baltimore are sound. Zante is Jim Briggs in clear moment there
this week from Kevin Raimondo merrily Williams, ahead, Asturias, Chris Sharper Amy,
is our editor in chief Susan
whereas executive editor and our executive producer scam. Solving our theme is
by come around like support for reveals.
By the Raven David Love Foundation, the Fort foundations, the John D and Catherine
He Macarthur Foundation, the genus and James
It foundation and the ethics and excellence and journalism foundation reveals a co production centre for investigating reporting. Mp are ex about letter.
There is always more to the stone.
These are last few shows of the year, and let me tell you in twenty twenty we are bringing the fire launching some of our most ambitious projects we ve ever done. I can wait for you to hear them reveal, is all about going deep, pulling on threads
telling stories that matter and this kind of investigative journalism. Well, it takes time and it costs money. These are the final weeks
for end of the year membership campaign. We depend on listeners like you to help make this work possible to support us just text. The word reveal two hundred and forty seven, four thousand seven hundred and forty seven state of data rates apply and you can take stop or cancel at any time again just text the word
I'll do for seven four, seven, four, seven, let's go! Do some good work together.
Transcript generated on 2019-12-21.