Some police departments are embracing a set of tactics designed to reduce the use of force – and prevent police shootings. Rather than rushing in aggressively, officers back off, wait out people in crisis and use words instead of weapons.
But this training isn't required in most states. Reveal teams up with APM Reports and finds that most cops spend a lot more time training to shoot their guns than learning how to avoid firing them.
This episode was originally broadcast on May 6, 2017.
Don’t miss out on the next big story. Get the Weekly Reveal newsletter today.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hey. It is your favorite host in all of pod custom. Now for the rest of the year, I'm gonna be asking you to join us by becoming a member of reveal reveal is all about going deep, pulling on threads telling stories that matter for more than three years now reveal has been fighting a lawsuit. That's been jeopardizing our very existence of restore. We,
about an organization called planet aid. Our story raises serious questions about whether international aid was actually reaching the people. It was intended to help and what's more, our story was truthful and we stand by it. We believe it's our duty to fight attacks like this, but fighting a lawsuit comes at a huge costs, are legal fees alone totalled more than seven million dollars? Luckily, we have pro bono legal support to help our in house counsel, but it still takes significant resources, resources that should be used to do more public service journalists, this kind of investigative,
it takes time and it cost money. If you believe in the work, we do the absolute best way to support us is by becoming a member of reveal to do it. Just text. The word reveal two hundred and forty seven, four thousand seven hundred and forty seven standard data rates apply and you can text stop or cancel at any time.
Also all new members who donate at least five dollars a month. We get our facts, t shirt again just text. The word reveal two hundred and forty seven, four thousand seven hundred and forty seven.
Doll. You who already support our work. I want to offer a deep sincere thanks. We can't do this work without you were looking forward to twenty slash. Twenty. We have big things planned, so, let's go. Do some good work together.
From the centre for investigative reporting and p r eggs, this is revealed amount. Let's just about a month ago, in Toronto, White Van barrels down a busy street, it jumps a curb and greens onto a sidewalk
Cotter with a breaking story coming out of Toronto right now, a number of people struck by a ban in the young in Shepherd area about twenty four miles away, might fitter Regos at home
Recently retired cities longtime deputy police chief. He watches the scene
hold on a tv screen and
Actually, it seemed like a traffic incident
motors ten struck a number of pedestrians bit of information
came out. It sounded like the event
was more deliberate them.
And travels. Sixteen blocks its work,
on and off the sidewalk pedestrians die for cover. It hits twenty six feet and kills
after about a mile, the van stops in front of a high in Congo town. That's where police officer confronts the driver, people watching take out their cell phones and start recording and the video captures purse making movements that looked like drawing a fire
and pointing at the police officer the driver stands beside the van. He has a dark colored object in his love,
sir stands behind his car sirens Blair
police officer I should mention: has his firearm out therein stand on the officer pointing a gun,
and holding his arm like he has one to the officer yells gift.
The man yells kill me any seems like this is going to
with some one getting shot, but then the officer does something
unexpected, he turns off the siren and that, of course we
Uses the noise and the distraction, and then that lowers the stress levels and, of course gives you the opportunity actually communicate with the individual. Now the two can hear each of the driver still
aiming at the cop says he has a gun in his pocket. The cop says doesn't care and then the officer makes another surprising decision.
The video shows the officer Hoss during their firearm, pulling out his baton
and then it within a few seconds. Moving in on the subject,
Making the arrest the off
raises his baton and walked toward the man. All of a sudden, the man drops what he's holding it looks like. Maybe it's a cell phone he gets down on the ground, as he's told and puts his hands behind his back. No shots fired. No one else gets hurt. The man's name is Alec. Manassa he's facing ten charges, a first degree murder constable can Lamb is
Hailed as a hero, but retired deputy chief might Federico see something more than bravery of a single officer. He sees the officers training at work, the demonstrated to me that the officer absorbed the training took it to heart. So I was. I was proud of that
three years ago, Federico led an overhaul of the departments training programme. Now, every year Toronto officers receive training in a set of techniques designed to de escalate tense situations. They learn to back off, slow down and use their communication skills to resolve conflict.
The new training tries to get the police officer to take the situation in the person under control without resorting to force or
with resorting to the least amount of force,
the Toronto. Video got a lot of attention here in the U S were nearly a thousand people are shot and killed by police every year,
recently, some? U s. Police departments have adopted a train programme like the one in Toronto, but most of US police departments still
doing their train? Most states don't make them
today were teaming up with a group of investigative reporters from american public media to look at why
we spend more time learning how to shoot their guns. They learning how to avoid shooting
This is a story we originally brought you less you. We start off with a pm reports, corresponding Kurds, Gilbert visiting South Georgia town.
Please don't do much de escalation training in spite of what
heaven there in TWAIN fifteen, mostly,
life in Arlington, Georgia is pretty uneventful. It's a farming community! Thirty
I am from the Alabama border. Arlington has fourteen hundred people and one grocery store. Jerry's country meet Jerry. Scarborough owns the store. He recognizes
It's about every customer who walks through the door. Everybody knows everybody know we're to go to church. Where do children go in adult name? It jerry?
A couple of rocking chair out front, he's happy to sit down for a few minutes and talk about the day a couple years back when a stranger walked into his store. The man was in his late fifties and he was acting bizarre in Gothenburg.
A good bit and singing only. Thank you say to me when I say unto him was that I was fired, turning monkeys o fourteen of them. He is acting like you on the place near basically asked girls front of a belief in God and when they say years he went
written Raven Adam was he threatening them are just saying this crazy scripture thing in train a fireman physically threatening, I'm no
center get out and he left and went back to the daily in store,
no Madeira, girls back air, so long
because they were fired in any went back at the door and I
it's one of Jerry's employees called the police about the man, something fundamentally wrong with in theory they, like you finally sergeant Mickey White, was off duty driving his skin
car home from his job at the early county sheriff's office. There were no other police near by when the call came over. The radio, so white took
by the time he rolled up, the man was in his car trying to get through a constructions weights
can video shows what happened next, drivers, body guards giant weren't, but a mother.
Instead, the man gets out of his car and walked slowly toward sergeant. Why? But I got out of the car now then just ass, he had in the grocery store. The man begins to sing it's a hymn greatest Thy faithfully
put your hands on the car. I am going to tell you
your hand on the car. If I'm going, I'm going, you tell the teacher
Is it not the man to the ground? It just makes him mad. He stumbles back then Cox's fist and charges at sergeant white, the man lands to glancing blows. As the sergeant process gun
Ninety seven J to have a shots by subject dial the man is dead,
urgent, making white had been on the scene for a total of thirty five seconds. Last summer a grand jury ruled the shooting was legally justified, but right after he killed the man sergeant White wondered out loud whether he done the right thing by having about
the dash camel accorded this conversation with another officer about twenty minutes. After the shoe, notably those of all I could have fought it sergeant White says you did what licking had
did what he was trained to do. If
left wondering whether all could have ended differently if he taken another approach- and I am not the only one who has that reaction after watching the video is did over that shot twice. It makes no sense,
Collins trains police to resolve situations without violence. One of these have a weapon on them that
the citizen did not have a weapon on them. That shows like a danger to himself or to other people. Things don't have to be resolved within the first
three seconds. Let him sing all day comes even in this, his car and sing until seems comes
even in this Post Ferguson World, where it seems like every police shooting of an unarmed person, gets dissected and analyzed the strangers death didn't get much attention. It happened.
Far from any no one demanded,
the video there were no protest, marches databases of police.
Misspell maintained by the guardian and the Washington Post, both didn't his name. It was I'm a farce. Large family didn't file
suit mean I'm a farce. Large, where you know I don't care Clint touched in is dairy Son Clint was twenty eight when the shooting happen and for most of
life. He didn't have much of a relationship with his father at the time:
shooting it had been about ten years since I last saw his dad, as is the lottery
at that time, coming out
I deal with it, for that was selfish,
now and then the
the yellow, Elie, he's gone and never gonna say,
down on me, then I kind of got like calling. You know it took a toll on me and I kind of mess with me.
Because there were so little media coverage of dairy touched in Staff Clinton.
We know there was a video of the incident when I tell him
have a copy on my laptop he ass. If he can watch it, Sir
We want to see that
employed in the
there's teased and takes a swing. It sergeant. Why? When the shortest fire
silences his father's teased and takes a swing it sergeant. Why, when the shot is fired, his dad and sergeant wider half camera was on it. Now
I need say now and as we know why things like it was on God for the whole say not just another spores the police know Human AL.
Or the whole the whole say not just another. As the police know, human our rights, mind boggling, you know my word
I come from in are never may near, maybe maybe not at home. You know
It's always at their own him with the law
Not here, we never had no trouble with love
cons. Father may have been a stranger in Arlington Georgia, but half an hour up the road where he grew up in Newton. Just about everybody knew dairy touched him. Friends say he was
popular in high school, his family had money was younger, but his father made some bad investments and lost the farm.
Marquis De Buller used to own the trailer park where dairy lived until a couple years before he died. She says
She loved good days. You couldn't hope for a better friend. There goes.
A black eye, he loved and she loved him, and they were both haven't hard financially before he disability started and he would go catch fish
the river and bring him to her, and she would cook for both often ammunition second person bomber.
Peter, was also familiar with dairies problems. She was one of the counsellors at the local mental health clinic. She says he was bipolar and occasionally suffered from delusions. Dairy once told friends. He punched a hole through a concrete wall. Another
he said he want a baseball scholarship to the University of Georgia.
It is as a mental health worker she took training
How to deal with people like dairy and she wishes more police did too
I have a lot of respect for most law enforcement people, but we would like them to reckon
as is thy need training in this area.
Not just for mental health reasons, but lot dealing with
Pollux and drugs.
Dealing with domestic violence, data of parents who are upset
they have to go and take their child our home. All these are volatile situations and they have the potential to blow up in your face. The officer who killed dairy had been involved in other volatile situations after the shooting sergeant Mickey White had to tell agents from the Georgia Bureau of investigations about. One of them has evolved
similar to shape the macro. My family was having another squabble, Orchard Macarius Sixty two and he lived in a trailer at the end of a muddy dirt path for most of his life he's got a thick South Georgia.
Accent and he can talk pretty fast- may be made his own tat. We all agree without I get says his argument be made. Sometimes we don't agree, sometimes he's talking about his brother, Terry, Terry, used to live next door.
And he used to get to arguing with other members of the family
get out sometime. We just got reproduce, show me cylinder
He went to their he'd, get out of hand, sometimes and they'd call. The police police would come in settling down. He go home to his house as a valid thing is just a family thing. That's all,
at night in two thousand nine. It wasn't the usual officer who responded. It was Mickey wife. He taken a job with a Baker County Sheriff's office earlier that year, White tried to arrest Harry, but he told the investigators Terry Wynn cooperate right. That was re elected out here with the mode of legs toward me. I've got a heck of road vehicles, uplifting that rail judge lay on his back. He sat a modem somewhere during the bay
Oh, your account and jumped on the back of the London as now leave me me. Terry Macaroni survived, but he still has a scar on his chest from the bullet wounds. I'm feeling
First, I do went down. Are they went down and we got we, but you know
Fear when our well well, you know been after a building. Terry eventually pleaded guilty to obstructing an officer and investigation.
Cleared Mickey White of any wrong doing in the shooting. He wouldn't talk to me for this story. Mickey white has been a cop for more than fifteen years. In that time he shot to unarmed people before the shootings he'd never taken a course in de escalation, but he taken more than six hundred hours of training
in other subjects. In fact, on the day, sergeant white shot and killed very touched in white, had just attended a five hour training session
and it wasn't just any training. It was called firearms requalify and use of deadly for
He spent part of the morning doing target practice on the shooting range and the other part learn
when he could legally opened fire on someone describe, it
but I do and form a Powerpoint presentation. Captain will coddle taught the deadly first class at the early canny sheriff's office. That day he's been doing since twenty ten, the training on data forces focus
alma the code sections. Basically, so it's coming right out law, Attica book as well. We need that training from have there been any significant changes to like the kinds of topics your covering with officers.
Not many changes in the law, so our training one of changes force which required when you, when you're authorized in Delhi Force when police use deadly force
The law is generally on their side. If an officer
reasonably believes there is a threat to his safety or someone else's. Then he's allowed to shoot. Coddled didn't spend
any time teaching officers how to resolve situations without firing their weapon. Mickey whites training history is pretty typical. We looked at training records in other states that, like Georgia, hadn't historically required police departments to train office
Cynthia escalation. Those records show that officers usually don't get that kind of training. Just like Mickey White in TWAIN
seventeen. We reviewed training records for every law enforcement officer in the state of Georgia, its remarkable how
of their training was devoted to the escalation at the time it accounted for about one percent of all the training hours over the previous five years early county.
We're Mickey White works did considerably less than that. I went to see the
really county sheriff to find out. Why endure day they William Price, has held this office since twenty twelve. He was the first black sheriff ever elected here. A very big got about. Well, it was basically say it was impossible to price, has a hand made placard on his desk to it says back the blue open. I saw similar signs around town. You know our lot matter. You know my work only
Sheriff Press describes Mickey White as a good old country boy and a great employ there's megawatt like a day. This is a good officer. He isn't.
Trusted in second guessing the shooting of dairy touched in more. How sergeant might was trained, but you can?
What, if that situation from now to forever
a lot of wholesale real ass. We have two seconds to make a decision
sit round. The table is all day. You know
was just fired, shoot nest. That's no, as is basically so, has nothing to do with this training he's well trained.
This whole, like line and training that you know slow down. The action give yourself some space car to give yourselves
or time don't try to resolve the situation is quickly. Do you think that an approach like that might have
led to an outcome where that guy isn't dead there, that's the important and search it waiting at you.
You can't go in approach asserts it was way, but in essence, waited long bam. It happen
I just like to pause there for a moment. The ship
says de escalation. Training wouldn't work because the situation unfolded so quickly, but one of the key things officers, learning de escalation training is too slow. Things
so out of six hundred hours of training. Why didn't sergeant whites
and even one of them learning about ways to avoid shooting people sheriff price question
the value of formal de escalation training. He sees that as a skill that simply comes with experience. The first five years of my life was clear about it.
Fight everybody to put to in him in declaration that makes five years
It was ladys atop emigrated from to get over twenty seven years of experience on the job training as a base. You can get came about a tea,
to how to de escalate nobody other than the streets. You learn quickly, I think
The homeward bs police de escalation, trainer Derek Collins, says the skills he teaches don't come.
Actually to every cop, in the reason why this area,
but he's not as emotionally intelligent as other people after developing is training course Derek's organization,
contacted more than one hundred fifty law enforcement agencies in Georgia to see if they were interested in putting their officers through it only to police
apartment signed up. We should have had at least a hundred times more officers in his training and
no one saw us out the people that we got in training, we all saw them out and is a shame. The whole experience left Derek feeling, cynical, especially when he sees all the other training police are doing. Let me go to police
meaning that net you. He pulls up an online calendar where police trainers advertise their classes. We saw one years
haitian right, ok, there's two! So let's keep scrolling down
you ve gotta emerging line for some legal trends, internet tools or criminal investigators. Hands on electrical fire varying officer involves shooting statement, analysis career
protection, resiliency, criminal patrol drug interdiction.
And then there's an and ask me so we saw three so over of I don't know. Maybe a hundred and fifty
With all these shootings does happen. You would think this board will be filled with the escalation trains, but is not
Derek says: if police chiefs aren't willing to make the escalation training a priority, someone is going to have to make them do it and in Georgia someone now has starting last year, the Georgia Peace officer, Standards and Training Council
I would every officer in the state to take at least one hour of the escalation training every year. It's not a huge amount, but it's a lot more than most Georgia. Police departments had been,
Curtis Gilbert is a corresponding with eight p m reports. There, an investigative journalism from faced american publication after
Curtis takes us to Minneapolis where we need cops,
changing their approach to people like very touched
was very honest with them and let him know I thought that his behavior,
paranoia, he basically started crying. That's in a from this
therefore investigative reporting of key or.
From the centre for investigative reporting in p r ex. This reveal a mallet thirty five. Second,
that's how long it took between the time sergeant, Mickey White,
build up in his squad car. In the moment he shot and killed very touched in rural George
in Ferguson, Missouri the shots that killed
Brow were fired less than two minutes after the police arrived took just ninety seconds really decided later Brown was dead report the news for Philander steel in Minnesota. It was just over a mean old it in a one minute. Traffic stop in Falcon hides right for twelve year old to mere rice playing with political. At apart in Cleveland, it was less than two seconds between the time
please rolled upon the scene and open five one and a half your hands. It happened and the blink of an eye so is the dead of night, and that's for people did four minutes. Experts believe its milk,
whence that so many police shootings happen in so little time same Cisco, policed
I've been studied. The relationship between time is shots fired
The police chief, Tony chaplain keeps a chart in his office, guess what it conveys every time his officers open fire doing a five year period.
In under a minute forty five percent of the shooting occurred when you went to a minute you're up to ten percent. At two minutes,
You have five percent three minutes.
Literally the graph falls off a cliff with each minute.
You stole these things out. If we create this time and
distance, as you can see from this graph, we save lives,
they were taking it in depth. Look at one way: police departments are training officers to take their time through something called.
De escalation, Curtis Gilbert,
Colleagues. At eight p M reports found most police. The bar
spend hardly any time training in the escalation, even though they spend a lot of time.
Doing various other trainings for the next part of our story.
This takes us to Minnesota to see her
This train actually works
by doing this morning, like this training session
held in a nondescript government building surrounded by farmland on the rural,
fringes of the Minneapolis suburbs. More than forty people attended, including both cops in county social workers. This aid our course focuses on how to resolve a mental health care
without resorting to violence, slowed down back off, take cover. You don't have to win retired police chief hall. Nineteen is one of the instructors for this training on my hands. One way he teaches officers to slow down a situation is through better can
occasion. Munting advises them to avoid asking yes or no questions. You need the open end, those questions and, what's bothering you
mad how come you're mad so that people will tell you what their thinking about. At the end of the training session, the cops and social workers get a chance to practice. Those techniques game are going to work this about fifteen minutes.
So I sit in on one of the groups. Jean Remsen works in the county Human Services Department, she's assigned to play an agitated Alzheimer's patients mean trucks. Am I think it's ok, I'm having a temperate tantrum,
the nurses Mimi may deputy Ryan Edmunds from the sheriff's office place himself. Why does she may address? I just
I don't know, I don't know where it is. I haven't seen my stuff. Maybe Clare knows where its clarity, we can certainly ask learn whose Claudio Edmunds is trying out an active listening technique.
In the class. The idea is to show your paying attention by repeating the last thing someone says and turning it into a question sees it works. For me. She works rail stipulate. Edmunds, took another de escalation. Try
a couple years ago. He says he never learn this stuff when he started his career through training like twelve years ago
If we don't have any same or similar topics more of a hands on the use of force issues, not communication skills active us new skills whenever they touch much on that at all
I ve been to retrain like this before and have you had? An opportunity applies: molest scuffing, you everyday doesn't Moore S, yet virtually wealth
It's hard to measure exactly how well this kind of training works
especially when it comes to reducing deadly police shootings. That's because there
extremely rare, raw
employees shootings have gained a lot of attention? Usually after a video of the incident services? But the fact is most
police officers will go through their entire career without
were firing at any one. So you can't take a department, train the officers and then check to see
they shoot fewer people the next year because they probably wouldn't shot anyone anyway, but policed.
Since that have embraced the training say it's working in Dallas text
The year after officers took the escalation training. The department saw an eighteen percent drop in the use of force,
use of force means more than just shootings it also
please everything from wrestling with suspects to teasing them losses
it s also made a major push for de escalation and saw you
decline, but the most powerful evidence the training works, comes from the cops who done it. Jennifer Lazard joined the Minneapolis Police Department in the mid nineties. Back then she says officers weren't train to empathize with people lethargic remembers. She was taught three simple steps to get people to comply with her order
ask tell make asked them to do what you like him to do. If they dont, do it tell them to do what you like and then, when that doesn't happen, you make them make them means used physical force and all those fights have taken their tall
I stubbed my tool, one time in a fight which damaged my toe to the point where its now fused? I have a wrist issue that,
when I was trying to arrest somebody? He did the lakes wiggle out of his little coat thing and I fell landing on the palms of my hands and injured. My wrist it'll always hurt, but officer was arching, isn't getting into his many fights and she used to the reason she says is a few years ago the department put her through the escalation framing, and I strongly begin by having you just tell me:
where we are and what we do. You want me to tell you where we are working in the sky, ways of Minneapolis even count,
have a hard time, navigating the maze of the Minneapolis Skyways system. It's a series,
elevated, enclosed bridges connecting most of the buildings in the downtown business district you can
walk from one end of downtown to the other. Without
we're going outside in the cold of winter, the heat of summer picture and ate my along food court winding from the second floor of one building to the next. I met officer Lazard there, because it's one of the places she put her
the escalation training to work she and her partner answered and nine. When one call from a security guard here in twenty seventy, a homeless man,
was screaming at the morning crowds and the skyways, accusing them of trying to steal his cell phone loser,
chicken or partner, found him in the lobby of a financed room. As we approached, I could see kind of a group of maybe ten to fifteen people standing in a circle in front of that desk kind of between the pots in the pillar right there at the center of the circle,
the man still agitated and screaming. He was sitting on the ground I'm twenty years ago.
That would have been ok. You go on one side of a model on the other. Will both crab in Armand will come in and take him to the hospital most of the time? That goes, ok, but there's those few times where it doesn't go k and they start to fight with you. So instead officer was Archduke asked the crowd to back up she kneeled down in front of the man made I
contact and started a conversation. I just was very honest with them and let him know I thought that his behaviour appeared paranoid and
pointed out that he was swearing and that it was called
I wasn't normal and he basically started crying in having this car
station with him and were continually reassuring that I wanted to help him and not hurt him. He started talk about wanting to go to the hospital officer was our track, so she
the ambulance without even using handcuffs, and nobody got hurt. Listening to this story
I was struck by the parallels with dairy, touched him. The man in Rural Georgia, who is
by a sheriff deputy, like the guy in Minneapolis,
he was mentally ill and causing a disturbance and some
called nine one one, but when the office
in Georgia, arrived, he went old school ask tell make it ended. Thirty five sex
later he dairy dead in the middle of the road, not on his way to the hospital,
like the man in Minneapolis officer, Lazard Check says she spent at least thirty five minutes talking down the homeless man, not seconds minutes
now she's helping other officers in Minneapolis learn how to do the same thing, and she says some of them were deeply sceptical at the start of the week long sessions, I will say I had so many-
people that were negative old timers who had been trained in the old way. That would argue,
with me during the scenarios. Isn't I'd never do that? I would never do it that way. That would never work for me and we would talk it through and
at the end of the training would say, while you know what I get it, that makes sense, I'm gonna try that next time
more Minneapolis police. My try that next time since
We first hear this toy last year: the cities,
clean it putting all eight hundred of its patrol officers through a week long, the escalation drink, but that's not the norm when we come back
we'll find out. Why so many police departments spend so little time on this type of training, nothing's,
if goodly broken law enforcement right now we are better trained, better selected, better educated. They
ever before in the United States of America, history yet were in the toilet. Right now, why that's an amended on reveal
from the centre for investigative reporting and p r eggs from the centre for investigate, reporting and p r ex this is reveal. I'm outlets
for Obama, made improving the relationship between police departments and the black community major priority. His task force on twenty first century policing recommended a variety of changes to the way law enforcement agencies train.
The goal it will be good for police and it will be good for the communities involved. Shootings, therefore, which will be good for the recent
this hour we ve been focusing on one of those training reforms. It's called de escalation. The goal is for police too.
This less often in to prevent the kinds of shootings that have put between police
unity in recent years. But America has a new president now and Donald Trump. Doesn't
like the Obama administration approach. They are dangerous and die police atmosphere in America at all throughout America, from promises to support them,
and not question the way they do their jobs, the war on our police, Mars and added much and
Now, when the Trump the Justice Department has steered its focus away,
improving police community relations and back to more traditional crime. Fighting programmes
even when Obama was in office. He didn't give police to change much piece. Federal government can't tell local police departments what we want to find out.
Within half of them required the escalation training. Almost every state has a small group of people in
In of making that decision, his called a again of
Andrews and Training Board or Post board we wonderful
and out why they don't require police departments to train officers
Indeed escalation. So we contacted all of the post sports, his Curtis Gilbert again of a reports to tell us what they found. The escalation is a controversial subject in the law enforcement world. Might Sherlock spent thirty years is a car
he held just about every job on the force actually worked robbery, homicide for a while when you call a witness or so
they on the phone and go hey. This is detective sherlock. They dont believe
view very often. Let me put it that way almost had to be a cop when the last financial year I did it. I was destiny here now Sherlock runs the Nevada Post, Commission, it doesnt mandate, de escalation, training and Sherlock doesn't think it should, I think, is based on a false premise. The false premise is that officers are prone.
To excessive force. Sherlock says: Nevada, police officers are already taught that communication skills are key and force is a last resort, but he's
over emphasising that could be dangerous
they could lead officers to hesitate when they need to be decisive. I want officer
in my neighborhood who make legal moral, ethical decisions,
and it may mean that they have to escalate what they're doing to save my daughter or
save my son and my point is: we have to be very careful how we couch this. If it's about
using no force we're gonna have officers her we're gonna have citizens her. Do you think, though, that with better training, you could save a life or too, though
You know every once in a while, there is an officer, and
what did he do? Anything
legal or immoral, but just that,
He went in their charge and in got himself into us,
Duration, where there is only one option left and that was the uses firearm
and that be with some better tactics, calling for back up taken more time. That may be, they wouldn't
to have that be the only option you know. I agree with that
but again I go back to we do do that, don't mean that is what were teaching
doing exactly what you're talking about training exactly what you're talking about.
The reason that we have so few use of force.
In this country. This is a pretty common attitude among law enforcement officials.
We already know how to de escalate. We do it every day, but doing it too much could get us hurt or killed. When a pm reports reviewed training records from police departments around the country we found most of them had devoted hardly any time to the escalation trains and most postcards don't make them. Many post ward leaders said they have no problem with the escalation training, but they do have a problem with mandating it. They want. Let local police differ
decide how their officers spend their time and then there's the cost of forty hour de escalation. Training can easily run more than five hundred dollars for officer, but money and time aren't the only barriers,
frank simmering is a law professor at you see Berkeley. He studies, police, shootings, Zimmer points out that most of the seats on state post are
held by current or former law enforcement officials, one
the reasons why these fancy looking boards are not aggressive is because they are essentially representatives of local governments, so you're saying because their local police
peace they don't wanna pass mandates on themselves or their peers. You bet that isn't rocket science, that's basic political science. So that way,
up to local police chiefs to decide what training their officers need, an simmering says
reducing the use of force doesn't seem to be a priority for most of them.
The escalation is gonna work only when saving civilian lives but comes in important objective of police administration and training, and you think that basically, they have not shown that they care about this issue, not to date.
We found police departments, often don't change until they have a high profile shooting
John all led the police department in the Minneapolis suburb of Saint Anthony for more than a decade when,
he retired in twenty sixteen he gave him
to view tour reporter at a community newspaper, your in the interim
You always dismissive of the Obama administration, push for police reform, nothing
significantly broken and law enforcement right now we are better trained, better selected, better educated, more help to more standards higher accountable with
better policy than ever before in the United States of America. Is history yet we're in the toilet? Right now, Y all told the reporter. His department was already doing ninety percent of what the.
Recommended just read: I got ya doin doing some people don't do that enjoying going, but when it comes to de escalation, training the Saint Anthony Police Department did significantly less than many other twin cities. Suburbs. Saint Anthony officers, did plenty of other training, though in twenty fourteen to Saint Anthony officers went
for a course called the bullet proof mind. It was designed by former army, Ranger and West point. Psychology. Professor Dave Grossman gave Grossman begins the sharpening of your bullet proof mind with a glimpse into the world. You enter every time you put on your uniform and gun belt. It's a world. You need to better understand the go home safely at the end of every ship. This version of the training was posted to you to back in two thousand. It we're living in the most vile at times
human history in it Grossman paints a frightening picture of police life, you're not dealing with ragtag odds and ends criminals out there you're dealing with individuals who are motivated
to kill in a way that we have never seen before. The training is supposed to prepare officers mentally, so they won't flinch if they need to shoot we're going to explore the dynamics of another human being. Looking at you across the sites and you pulling the trigger s, nothing there like Grossman, says police need to think like warriors and prepare themselves for combat that's pretty much the op.
Said of the kind of the escalation training Obama's taskforce recommended in the summer of twenty seventeen one of the scene.
Any police officers who took the bullet proof. Mine, training, shot and killed a black man named Philander Castillo during a traffic stop, it was captured on police dash. Can video
We have the door. We break my girl,
you might remember what happened at the Castille told the officer he was carrying a gun reach for seconds later, the officer open fire
in the offices.
You shot Philander Castillo was her random. Oh, it is a joy, acquitted him
second degree. Manslaughter last summer, steals mother was outraged when they get done. Would that coming from you for you? But you are you're in a way
your children are next and you'll, be standing up here, fighting for justice just as well as I am. I am so disappointed in the state of Minnesota. My son love this state. He had one tattoo on his body and it was of the twin cities, the state of Minnesota, with TC on it. My son love this city in this city kill my son and a murderer gets away.
The steel family received a three billion dollar settlement from City of Saint Anthony and the city gave off. So young is a little less than fifty thousand dollars in exchange for his resignation, the city's working with Justice Department, reformist training practices, the work is continuing, even though the Trump Administration has said it's overhauling the programme funding that effort reverse air. This episode reveal a year ago and Kurdish Gilbert joins us now to explain, watch chain
since then a Gerdas Pedro, I'm doing great at so that a year ago there were sixteen states requiring de escalation training. So what's a number, and now it's up to twenty one and that's pretty significant in just one year for five additional states to add de escalation, training requirements,
and those states are Minnesota, Colorado, Oregon, New Jersey in South Carolina? So let those states make the change. You know if prowling varies a bit from state to state
couple of em they're gonna sound familiar Minnesota, we were just talking about the Philander Castillo shooting. That was a big catalyst in the state of Minnesota South Carolina. There is the Walter Scott case mean both of those are situations where a police officer was actually criminally charged.
For shooting a civilian, and so I think that was definitely on the minds of legislators when they put those requirements in the place, see us
reporting on psychological evaluation that police officers have to go through which they came up with another high profile,
issuing a Minnesota in Minneapolis last summer. What is a story that,
getting international attention and Austria, because when you, those economic but also processing, another borderless polytheism, skipping USA shocking killing, it is its inexplicable people may remember this case. The police shot and killed an australian woman named Justine Damon Roost Chick. She called the police to report what she thought might be a sexual assault on the plea showed up. One of the officers say they got spooked by noise and someone approaching their car, the other officer open fire killed.
The woman has been charged with a third degree, murder, so Curtis. What did you find when you started looking into this case? You know this already started with a single piece of paper, which is the license application
in that officer, Mohammed, nor the officer who shot Justine Damon reject, had dared to submit to become a licensed police officer and state a minute
and on that was one line that said name of licence psychologist approved for higher, yes or no, I thought always net interesting, so he had to go.
It was psychologists, actually hadn't didn't even know that and that
show me down this long rabbit hole and when I discovered is that the city of Minneapolis was giving police officers, including officer under way fewer psychological tests and they used to they used to put police through a whole battery of five psychological test and, over the last five years, they'd scale that back to just a single
psychological test. So why would the city do that? Yeah? It really came down to a change in personnel, so it happened at the same time. The city switched psychological screening providers and they went with a pro
eider who, for whatever reason, decided that one test was going to be sufficient. So all the other tests kind of fell by the wayside
How effective are these psychological screenings mean do? Do we actually know? Yes, there is actually a lot of research that shows they are extremely effective at identifying which officers are going to be good officers and which officers are gonna, potentially cause problems on the force and in fact there is good research that shows that doing more than one past is more effective at doing that. So there really are
stakes. To a decision like this Minneapolis did a review at it found that minority candidates were being screamed out at a disproportionate rate when they were using these.
Test. We know why that is exactly why it was happening is something that
One seems to have a really good answer for, but I can tell you is: it was a huge concern for
The leaders and the police Department, Janee Harteau, was the chief of police in Minneapolis. At the time
and she was really alarmed when she saw that racial disparity in the psychological testing and we're not necessary thing.
There's anything wrong with those psychological testing evaluations. But why is it that consistently white males pass more frequently was very consistent when you look at the data two percent
Jews were always there and that really lead the Minneapolis Police Department. To start looking for a new psychological provider,
so what's happening in Minneapolis. Now, as anything changed yeah they found a new provider. Is Germany,
Jan Thyssen Roberts she's committed to doing a broad array of psychological tests looking at a whole bunch of different personality traits,
characteristics such as dependability, integrity, stress, tolerance, teamwork, social competence, and the other thing I should note is that Jantzen Roberts is the first african american psychologist to do these screenings in the many apples police department,
How does this work across the country? I mean the psychological screenings work like the escalation training, where you kind of varies from one police department of the next year, so it definitely is a patchwork of varies from one police department to the next. There are thirty eight states
that require psychological screening, even more police departments, even in states that don't require
Do it anyway, so it's a pretty widespread practice, but when you
down to the nitty gritty and look at what s you giving are you following national best practices are following research base techniques,
One department might be the next one might not be, and that's really a symptom.
The way that law enforcement works in the United States? We leave it up to local control, and it's hard to imagine that that
and a change in a big way. Anytime soon, Curtis Gilbert correspond with eight p m reports. There, an investigative, John
as group based out of american Public Media Curtis thanks Covenant, you bet
today shows report produced by courtesy and edited by Catherine Winter that help from their colleagues that opium imports Jennifer Fogel Emily Havoc in each Nelson
along with data, were, will grabbed a PM reports editor in Chief Chris weren't, where production help from Smith fields.
To see what police training your state requires. Visit, APL report startled
are sound design team is the dynamic. Do J reason to Jim Briggs
Man, though my man, your router, they help this week from clear,
Kevin Raimondo a Merry Lee Williams,
See Yo Whiskers sharper Amy.
Editor in chief executive producers, Kevin Solomon, R C music by around like
support for veal is provided by the River David Logan Foundation. The John Dene Cavity, Macarthur Foundation, the Jonathan Logan Family Foundation before Foundation, the hiding Simons Foundation and the ethics and excellence and journalists foundation reveal is a cop
actually the centre for investigating reporting and p r eggs analysis and remember, there's always to this
These are last few shows of the year and let me tell you in twenty twenty we are bringing the fire launching some of our most ambitious projects we ve ever done. I can wait for you to hear them reveal is all about going deep, pulling on threads
telling stories that matter and this kind of investigative journalism. Well, it takes time and it costs money. These are the final weeks.
For end of the year membership campaign. We depend on listeners like you to help make this work possible to support us just text. The word reveal two hundred and forty seven, four thousand seven hundred and forty seven state of data rates apply and you can take stop or cancel at any time again just text
I'll do for seven four, seven, four, seven, let's go! Do some good work together.
Transcript generated on 2019-12-20.