The delicate science of hiring nihilism, examined in five deeply-personal case studies.
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Pushed a question was nagging me who killed truth. This truth problem it isn't just bad its deadly Angela, poor and I'm a historian of Harvard and staff writer at the new Yorker has been a lot of time trying to solve mysteries like this one. So I decided to start a pod cast. It's called the last archive hotel ten stories from last hundred years, a history of America and of our arguments about truth and evidence. The last archive to buy Pushkin industries whose only doing today ready, but I did I'm doing episode. Revision is history. I think, I'm obsessed with higher, I've always been obsessed with it. So
what I'm doing is I'm energy all people I ever higher and you you're the first president aware that bad pretty proudly on so you're Stacy killers. My first assistant had never had an assistant before that, maybe fifteen years ago, right after washing my second blink, I really I was spending all my time answering emails and booking travel instead of writing. So I decided I needed some mail I didn't remember the circumstances under which you can or for me, so I I thought I would just ask you remind me again how I found a big seem of what follows is it I have no memory names faces dates. I basically forget everything. A normal person doesn't have to do research on their own life, but I'm afraid I do ok sites.
Finally funny memories around the whole hiring situation, so you found we hop how it happened was I had just finished grad school and is looking for a job. Stacy new someone who knew someone who had an assistant, who, me or something like that very complicated anyway, I got Stacy's name and just emailed her out of the blue. We like you, don't know me what I'm looking for an assistant. You know, would you be interested? We met the next day for coffee. We chattered for literally- I'm gonna say all of thirty minutes here, So, yes, we were you going to. You are travelling to South Africa always spoke about of what I can remember is
you had said. Oh, you haven't acts that you have an accent on. My guess is born in South Africa and then asked me to move to a stranger that ongoing South Africa for business or we are for Europe speaking edged with the next day, and so I think, about twenty minutes all we talked about was like recommendations of what you should do in South Africa and pretty much I think was the rigorous job and rigorous like yes, you really vetted me through and through my knowledge- where best to eat. In South Africa who talked about that and I remember hilariously, being very concerned because I just got a nose ring thinking on all we know is he gonna that should take the nose ring out for that view. Will he notices this Europe, which is a proper professional of me and I live a little remember like be six months to a year later, when I was ever sleep had me work of your time.
And I said to you something about like: do you ever notice that or something about my nose ring came out you're, not all I don't even know you had one bright and agonize over whether keep this nose ring in or not for fear that it will. Do you know? I don't know if it would be a bad luck and you did not like the entire Here, the first you that I worked for you did not even notice that I had a nose right. I didn't it is then I remember now this is getting off to a bad start. My name is Malcolm Global Europe, sing to my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood in this episode, turn the unflinching, analytic gaze. That is, revision is history. Upon myself, Let us use our text. The
lines for the new testament Matthews, seven. First, five zau hypocrite first cast out the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the moat out of thy brothers You had emailed me we met the next morning because, if you are leaving shortly after that for South Africa, we spoke for about thirty minutes, twenty twenty five of which was about Africa. Then you left me, oh, you said to me, said: ok grade arm you. I got a couple of people, the interview and saw guess I'll be in touch when I'm back from my travel and like two weeks, Osama, okay, now good to meet you a movie
cotton nervous? You left him after wait now, two weeks to find out about Crusades, Ten to fifteen minutes later my phone and I also heard in your life, it's Melcombe again. So listen! You seem nice enough. Why are you just come? why and start tomorrow who's that least professional hiring story. The roadmap, as well as I was like. This must have been like a blink moment for him. I mean just finish riding bling. That's when I started with you like two thousand and five right after that bug- and the laughing with you again a few months later well into you, know the job and saying to you. When you hired me you're, we didn't you didn't really very much
Was it like a blink moment? You just new, and you said to me now I could be bought going through anymore, intervene And you see rising up, I was like you see myself, You like guinea, viewing anyone else. As I stated, I remember none of this but it all seems a little strange, isn't it I was about to handle the access to all of my business credit cards. Male media requests I would soon make her my main intermediaries with the entire outside world, appear to have read your resume. Skimmed, maybe did I ask you to bear if I asked you any questions about your schooling? Now did you Have any previous work experience that was relevant? I had in turned and worked at front line, but that's more
documentaries now really was a mechanism, so obviously didn't work, who knew very well if I'd known that it might have been, might have hired you in ten minutes and this supposed to twenty five. No, my first defensive react what Stacy was telling me was. This was my first tire. What did I know then she reminded me someone else, do you still work with the bad neck? Mama god I'd forgotten that story, the bottleneck, dont bottleneck, even though I barely got started here. This requires a digression. Well, that's a funny story from I am wearing like we re I'd like you to tell us why all white year, which allows in five how can pull member, because I'm so fond link had just hit the shelves.
In case you haven't picked up on it- is about the power of first impressions. Don had just read it and liked so anyway, one day I was out for lunch or I went to the bank or something I'm walking back to my office and there and there you are I thought you walking down the street in the opposite direction of me and I know immediately who you were, but I couldn't think of your name. Couldn't think of your name. Couldn't think of your name, you passed by. I turn I'll. My mouth, a yellow, hey, Malcolm, but I didn't know your name. I just yelled out hey Malcolm you're, just just like in the book point and you stopped and you turn around and seemed like a nice enough. You picked up on my energy of being excited by the books were standing on the street talking for a while, and I said she I would love it if you would autograph my book form and then it dawned on me
We were around the corner from my office, so I said you know what were corner from my office and you came up to my office is still didn't know. My name, you didn't know who I was. I was just a nice guy in the street and you come up to me office. I was sitting there talking and that's when you notice things on my desk and you see that the initial see Pierre and you say to me: oh you're, an account as a german accountant and use gee, I'm really not that happy with the accountant from using right now, Can I hire you? and I was a little like excited and dumbfounded. At the same time- and I said, slowdown, I said I said, will make an appointment for certain will talk about what you're situation is and work on her advice, I could possibly give you an answer.
You'll figure out. If you want to hire me- and he said now- I want to heart- and I said no, we're gonna. Do this right, we're not gonna. Do this impalpable in eventually, you came to my office and I gave you a consultation and you hired me so perfect, danger shock. I read here runs up to me on Madison Avenue, Malcolm Malcolm and five minutes, I'm trying to hire him to handle all my most sensitive affairs, who am I
you wouldn't let me I was a girl. I want to hurt you, wouldn't let me I wouldn't like one year, because I wanted to have a serious conversation where, where I gave you a consultation, and I discussed what what planning ideas I had for you, I wanted to make sure that you made your decision not faced on impulse but based on some knowledge and trust and confidence that I knew what I was talking about parameters told you didn't like me all the grounds, because a big going about accounting, for how could I
Now the computational review about whether we should be my account, he had never had caused a conversation with an account, but I will do my account precisely in those around and around and around whatever. This is getting. It bears no comes support, we're trying to send in every sees. Never vision is history. I followed, with so many interview last season. It was Tony doubly the tea connoisseur who accuse me of being a t bro meeting Tony for reasons, I dont entirely understand made me very happy decision before that it was Casey the musician from Nashville who sang a song? That brings me to tears every time a hearing Gallagher. dream and see how
k a c I b, O L, L S son when this is over. Look her up season the interview that surprised me the most was with someone and Adam cried. I talked about him the episode, undemocratic lotteries Adam has made his life's work to convince grade school kids to choose this Didn't council governments by picking names out of ad actually Adam works in Bolivia by picking Father beans out of a clay pot to ask you if your question that's out of hand talked. He seemed slightly mystified about why I had emailed him one day out of the blue, so how'd you find out about selection like democratic lottery concept I just I was interested in lotteries and I just was running around alone. I ran across Turkey, we're doing a mere two simples ice
sitting in my coffee shop over there? I was a day I contacted you us like this is really interesting. Study random. Now, there's a very important distinction with his whole lottery thing it's between agnosticism and nihilism. Agnosticism is about indifference. It's an elaborate, gallic shrug diagnostic words The reason to choose people randomly propositions of leadership is that, basically anyone can do the job the Me in wartime has an agnostic position. They believe is it can take almost any able bodied person and turned into a reasonably effective soldier, but that's not Adam trunk rights position. He absolutely thinks that there are good leaders and bad and not everyone is cut out to be student council.
He just doesn't believe that the systems we currently use or any good. So he says why bother just pull a name out I know would argue that in the interests of a fairer system, but let's be clear, he's a nihilist, he does not look at the best apparatus of democratic selection. Honed and perfected over many centuries and shrugged that's what the agnostic would do. No, he looks at those elaborate rituals, any rules, his eyes. He says, Gimme a break. That's my position too, when it comes to hiring. I look at all the folklore and ritual around predicting how well people will perform, and I say break a fireman. I roller not a shudder. I'm analysed and my task in this episode of revision is history is taken.
Since you to be analysed two. I had a long chat with no or resuming yet tat now, I don't know if you realize it but he's getting the art back together. I kind of don't blame him. He said to me, Malcolm I'm, having a time filling the boat. Getting my hands on one very living creature is hard enough in the middle of a pandemic, but only two Many to the skills, we're gonna need to stay out there for the next couple thousand years. It's a logistical night. You try finding the right of workers, Reggie Noah, says to me: I need a tool with powerful matching of technology. Could help me find the right animal for the right job. I said Noah.
One word: zipper. Four out of five employers who post tangier procurator get a quality candidate within the first day. That's how good their matching system is an I'm pretty sure, though, not a hundred percent positive that it will
friends, to their awfully ingenious over there to procure H, Q, zip recruiter, helps find you the right person for the right job, maybe even in cases where the prisoner looking for is a rhino Lucas patching see housekeeper could I can help. You hide, try it now for free, add, zip, recruiter, dot, com, Slash Gladwin, that's zip, recruiter, dotcom, slash, geology, W, yellow one more time, Zapruder Dotcom, slash power is an old adage which ensures being quoted to so many times he sick of price service quality pick any too can have everything.
Actually had an argue with. Some guy recently gave you that lie, and I said why do I have to pick two and he said, because you can't do our three name me, something that is inexpensive, easy to use and install and of high quality. He thought its dumped me and, I said simply said, simply saves, got everything you need to protect your home with none. Drawbacks of traditional homesick here it's got an arsenal of sensors and cameras, blanket every room window, indoor tailored specifically for your home professional monitoring, keeps watch day and night married. Police fire or medical professionals is an emergency.
And set it up yourself in under an hour just peel and stick the sensors exactly where you need them. No technician required and there's no contract, no pushy sales, guys no hidden fees. Your fine print another starts at fifty dollars a month price service covered up pickles, reefer change, try simply say today simply safety, comes lashed Gladwell. You get free shipping a sixty day. Risk retrial there's nothing to lose that simply safe dotcom, Slash Gladwell, the patron saint of hiring nihilism without question was
author and educator lines, Peter all of us in the hiring nihilist community worship at his feet. When I was a boy I used to read my parents and believe my teachers, they show respect for your elders and better than that, the men upstairs knew what they were doing. That's Peter, He was a Canadian, as am I of course, and I dont know if you remember from the lottery episode, but Adam Cronkite went to University in Canada. The nihilist strain runs deep in the land of the frozen prairie anyway. Lawrence Peter was a great effort. Famous for saying things like The noblest of all dogs is the hotdog. It feeds to hand at bites it also deeply involved in something called the kinetic sculpture race in Humble County, California, which is really hard to explain, except to say that it's kind of like the triathlon of the hour
world involving sculptures on wheels that are required to perform certain feats, Peter famous. He proposed a special prize called the golden dinosaur, hard to be given to the first machine to break down immediately after the star which, if you knew lords Peter, you would recognise as being very Lawrence Peter, because his great professional obsession was with incompetence. He had harnesses I, for it and ass I looked around me. I saw a sign on that said emergency exit authorized. Personnel, only I wondered who'd written that, but then Later I saw another sign that emergency exit not to be you used under any circumstances. Lights. Peter funding,
It is one of the most famous laws in social science. He called it the Peter principle. The painter prince, was very simply than in any hierarchy and employ tends to rise to a level of incompetence. That's real estate. People get promoted, based on a prediction about their ability to handle the next job on the hierarchy and they keep rising until the prediction is wrong, in any organization where competence is essentially eligibility for promotion and incompetence is a bar to promotion over them rules apply. People will rise to the love incompetence and tend to stay there. No, it's Peter wrote a book called Peter PAN.
In nineteen, sixty nine and it is delightful exactly in a Lawrence Peter sort of way like he has a whole riff on the special case of someone who is incompetent promoted anyway, kicked upstairs a movie calls progressive, sublimation, or case when an incompetent person is moved out of the way, but given along job title as compensation, Peter call that a lateral arabesque, no chances are you ve heard of the Peter Principle, I'm guessing as a kind of ha ha. That's why my boss is so bad, but it's not a joke. Allow me to direct you to the work of a fellow member of the hiring Nihilist club, Helen, Benson economist. The University of Minnesota, while he was,
doing his doctrine at MIT. He got bitten by the Peter Principle Bug I started to go to fails management conferences and I found there is this adage that the best sales person doesn't necessarily make the best manager. But then people laugh and say, but we do it anyway and I wanted find out why the greeted them, of using salespeople de validate the Peter Principle Benson. As it is you can measure performance really easily. It's not like assessing the performance of engineers or politicians know its supervision. It forward. You just look at how many sales assails person is made It is also easy to measure how good a sales manager is. You just add up. The sails of the salespeople manages managing So Ellen Benson finds a tech company itself,
What are those software platforms for sales organizations, kind of like sales force, dot com and he gets access to all of their customers data four hundred firms hundred thousand salespeople? The first thing he finds is a confirmation of the famous eighty twenty rule that twenty percent of the salespeople are responsible for eighty percent of the sales across the board. It's not that we don't know who is a good salesperson. We definitely know some people are really. The good second thing he finds that those superstars get rewarded. What we found in the data of that topsails people are far far more likely to be promoted into fails management than people who are outside of that top twenty percent or who aren't the best person on the team. Of course, the mix since you give the stores of promotion. That's what everyone
ok now it s interesting. What happens when those stars take overs manager, fair, salespeople themselves, equal who they manage their performances becomes worth under them than it was under their prior managers, the stars get promoted and their terrible managers. How terrible really terrible Benson looked at an alternate promotion scenario where companies decide to promote not the stars, but the salespeople, who are good at collaborating nice friendly people who work well with others, and teams managed by the friendly people, do thirty percent better than the teams manage, but a super stars? Thirty percent is huge. Now you might say what does this have to
nihilism. This is just an argument: promoting friendly people over superstars, that's not by rolling or even shrugging. Well, I haven't told you about Benson's last finding because Benson found a fatal flaw in the ultimate promoting scenario, the one that seems to work thirty percent better, which is this. If you promote the friendly sales people over the top sales people than the top sales people get ups so upset that their performance suffers and they aren't so talk anymore. The whole thing is Oh magnificently, perverse, isn't it oh you're sales come from the same small group of people who expect to be promoted as a reward for their excellence, but if you promote them out of sales would you get return, is a lousy manager and if you don't promote them and you pass them over,
favor of some warm and fuzzy into personal, was the top. Farmers will pout and stop trying. So what he supposed to do, You could pay the superstars more more and give them fancier titles, the maneuver Lawrence Peter called the lateral arabesque, but you still insulted them by passing them over, for the friendly was another idea that some Peter Principle terrorists have floated his lotteries. They end up or Adam Cronkite ended up put everyone's name in a hat and promote the winner. I mean why not, but then, why have a boss at all the concept of a bus? Is it a boss knows more than the people, their basic? There is even a school of thought in the upper reaches of Peter Principle World. A solution is just too man up. Forget everything else and deliberately promote the incompetent, because this way you won't
one of your superstars by turning them into a lousy manager. You'll just transfer an incompetent person from their present position of income to another position of incompetence upstairs somewhere, where they will occupy a position which, according to Peter Principle, was bound to be occupied by an incompetent person sooner or later anyway, did you Father Peter principle? Theorizing gets very matter.
Very quickly, which is why most people would Radner consoled themselves with the soothing banalities of merit and prediction and hurricane. Only a select few are willing to face the truth and who are those brave and lonely heretics. The nihilists people like me who look at the world with a cold and unflinching eye and say under the circumstances. Why bother to learn the first thing about any new perspective: job candidate Heller, TIM hoffered here with news cautionary tales, has returned with a special many season, as the world has found itself turned upside down. I've been searching for insight
great crimes, catastrophes and fiascos the past in the hope that they will teach us something about the challenges we face today. As always, there is tragedy, heroism and lessons to learn, as I weave together history and the like. Tis Social Science, the witness the scramble to evacuate, is great waves wash away whole cities sit in a crowded cabaret, is flames, keep closer and closer to the auditorium and visit the plague hit town where people calmly await death, so their neighbours will live and behind it all a question should we have seen the pandemic coming, subscribed, cautionary tiles and apple pie, fast or wherever you listen from Pushkin industries. Marijuana motorcycles, mayhem deep covers. True story. It began.
With an FBI agents going under cover like her gay and ends with well a war of food scale. U S, innovation, I'm Jake, helper, I'm a journalist and for the story I been dive bars horse farms, backwater swamps. What ought to have been agents to pirate reactors and a bunch of big time drug smugglers, listen to deep cover. Now in your favour, podcast app for deep cover, pod dotcom brought to you by pushing industries. Things went well with my first time, Stacy but eventually Stacy needed to move on, and so I had to go through the whole process all over again with Sarah. Basically. We didn't talk about anything professional, as I recall, that it was a little bit. Our family, and then I was half
african, and that I could hear that, I knew the fifty states in America in alphabetical order that Sarah, remembering my second ever job interview, and he told me a year. This word I taught you are yours. Are you wanted to know? If I knew about the aware, maybe you just I just landed, I dunno, but it's the word. That is the kind of the opposite, directional flow of noxious. So nothing the night, the joy, the children give you and this word being Lucas, yet the one that you give them. Yes, he s got us into your house. I I just given by having to speak, two, like some jewish organization in Boston and cause- I'm not you, are so
I was filled with anxiety, and so I say as well that I have to impress them early on, and so I began my speech by her something about the distinction between the US and nothing was not us right So there was schooling, you jewish person now about yet I hired Sarah by email. The same afternoon we met, She was another recent college graduate. I didn't really bring up the job description during the interview because at that point. I wasn't really sure what my current assistant was up to in how would I know her job was to do things so that I didn't have to do them survive. Knew what she was doing. She wouldn't be doing our job, which so Stacy Brief Sarah about practical things
much more apparently because now I remember that the two pieces of advice that she kind of impressed upon me, like tablets, were I respect for privacy and be nice to his parents as it turned out. Sarah was exceedingly nice to my parents. My father thought you just where the bee's knees thank you- are his five new are absolutely his favorite. I think I told you that strange and wonderful dinner that I had just the two of us with your mom, and I wonder what happened what happened? I would not just that it was it. Was I in New York a festival and you are flying off and I just went to see if they needed anything and I went to see there okay and they asked if I wanted to join the for dinner and now tell me what you're supposed to do in a moment like that, like I use both to go for it, we give us his parents, you absolutely not supposed to go for with you bust his. So I did
and they were just thirty- was so kind to me about him and to say very warm. An interesting, and that was that that was it. I think I'll write you about. It was when they asked the way trust if we wondered pepper on our soup- and I said he asks. I thought, that's what you're supposed to say in your dad said. I don't know, I haven't tried it yet, and it was just it just. It was it was brilliant to me that you could just ass. He was, he was being a man. Commissioner, a scientist about his soup, but it was such a nice All that somebody agent, I tat. I miss my father so much the soup agnostic says, go ahead, put pepper and it's not gonna make much difference either way the soup nihilist says pepper can make a great deal of difference, but it is impossible for me
find out whether the waiter is often the pepper, because the soup leaves the kitchen deliberately under peppered or because the restaurant offers pepper as an amenity, regardless of the pettiness of its offerings. Sarah took the nihilist position has what I, of course I always get the pepper. The grand Gladwell was not a suit nihilist. He was a soup empiricist. He tried to soup, then consider the pepper, but on all other men He took the same approach as I do. What do you think I get it from whence snowy day when we were going to his friends, my father took an off ramp too fast. Skidded down the embankment and landed on the honourable facing around direction, whereupon he drove off the on ramp. Onto a road that none of us had ever seen before, and then he announced oh
This is the way I wanted to go all alone. Did he mean that, yes, he did He believed that, if you're on a road for whatever reason, then that's the road you should take if an accountant appears before you hire the EC if Stacy, seems nice higher Stacy. That is the way Gladwell think This is, in fact, the subjective by eulogy from my father at his funeral. A few years ago, which was one those funerals that wasn't exists, We funeral in that there was so much Graham Global in the air that about halfway through we all forgot. We were supposed to be grieving. For my part, I got up and spoke about all the ways in which my father would have objected to his own funeral. This is meticulously planned service. So far, my father did not believe in planning any
the only reason anything in my life's my father's life was plan with, because in a spectacularly fortunate failure due diligence she married my mother, then I talked about one of my heroes, Albert O Hersman, who the true godfather of my kind of nihilism. Even more where the nor its Peter Hersman was an economist. And one of the towering intellectuals of the twentieth century. He help save the lives of count Jews in the Second World war. Later he travelled to exotic lands. He was a man of action as well as words is
but in principle was always the hamlet was wrong and by that her method, hamlet with someone who's doubts made he'd incapable of acting right. Emma was frozen to be or not to be. That's the question, but Hersman Point was the hamlet, had it backwards that your doubts should free you, because once you ve accepted that you dont know what happens next, that you can't predict or plan everything in your life, then you Meta ACT because, what's holding back what is there to be afraid of if you ve given up on the illusion of knowing what could possibly happen, I I person, because he reminds me of my father. I think my father thought that him. It was wrong. He believed in God, even though no mathematical proof exists got existence, doubt did not compromise his face. It was what gave him freedom to believe
He married my mother, even though the world told him not to do that He went on walks without knowing where he would end up. He never looked at a map. You just say I'm going to follow me he built a greenhouse, even though you didn't know think about carpentry. I remember once looking out the windows, a child, I saw the cat has cat streaking at top speed with his ears bag and following a cat, our dog, at top speed with years back, look of terror. It is eyes and then copy sprinting at top speed safety, the House and I thought what on Earth and then I saw the shoes swarm of angry bees. Happy felt the freedom to be a beekeeper, even though
didn't really understand how peace I like to think that I learned from the best hamlet, never kept me but never had any fresh honey I'll stop, because my if my father thought a speaker- had gone on too long. He would just get up and leave. He would if you taking a walk at this point My hiring nihilism failed just once it was. With the assistant who came after Jane Jane. With Sarah roommate. Go my heart because liked. Sarah and I thought under the transit of property, that if Sarah was great, surely that meant that Jane would be great because what are the odds, sir? It is no good taste in roommates and sure enough. Jane was great. Jane turned out to be the kind of person
who plan D day invasion and then checking with Churchill and Roosevelt at five on a Friday and say Do you need anything worth me before the weekend anyway, J want to move on, and I hired call her Susan Susan seemed super nice, but she was not a good assisted in spanish too few weeks she made one error after another, some trivial, some major then just ass, I was about to go out, look tour. She announced she was taking another job. Leaving me in the lurch. I recommended her. She knew it wasn't working out, she was upset and apologized. I forgot
about the whole incident. Until, in the course of my forensic analysis of my hurrying history, one of my old assistance reminded me, so I searched back to my old emails and found this an email from me to Susan. Dear Susan, please don't be yourself up. Some people are good at this kind of work. Some people are not. It has no larger significance. Like how high you can jump or whether you were good at bowling. You are probably best for more scholarly pursuits in the end, which is not a bad thing. I was probably exactly the same way as your age. I can't believe I wrote that email, it sounds so sweet and understanding, but I'm not Sweden. Understanding am, I know not really. What I am is a hiring nihilist and parents of graciousness is simply one of the wonderful side effects of hiring nihilism, because if you believe
said nothing in someone's performance in one job predicts their future performance in another job. If you believe that the whole protection system, when it comes to people is just an extravagant exercise in so delusion, then you are free to say to Susan, it's! Ok, the fact that you didn't work out is my assistant has no larger significance because it doesn't life's too short. You need an account. You made an account higher the accountant you need Stacy, and you cancel all your other interviews because you realize what's the point, the Nautilus believes that people are mysterious and unpredictable. That life is a big crapshoot and most of the systems. Put in place, are they are just to satisfy our illusion that we can see into the future. My email went on, I Sorry I was as harsh as I was with you. It's So this is a rather stressful time.
And I have a million things going on, but Jacob, I believe, is just the kind of anal obsessive detail, oriented sort who will certainly well smiley face. So all's well that ends well good luck with your next job. I wish you all the best him wait, Jacob, ass, Jacob Psmith, Susan's successor yeah. Do you remember where the unity was whose at your place, remember that You know me, I don't really like dress up dress up, but I had dressed up as much as I do, and I this. If we remember that you were, but you weren't shoes. I think I had to take off my shoes. Do you remember what we what we talked about? What I asked you about that too,
Obviously the thing that always stuck with me as he asked if I contrived drive, stick shift just yes, that was the big one. I'm a real asked when my parents did should, though, is a good question. I love your parents teachers, those two answers. Seal of farming Do you remember how long is yours? I remembered it was able one and am in being out of their nose like one twenty knows it while that either one really well are really poorly guess how its the fastest job interview had, and that's with like five to seven minutes of just probably small talk and kind of getting settled in yeah do three things in theory to you, you drive: stick your parents and teachers. Then you said something that has said good I'm. So I know that I would do something something I we he's. Of admitting to be able to test. It is exactly what I want is money. In retrospect I actually think that anal I think I was playing that up I think I was but actually, but do not see. If I might offend mice
I was interested in someone who understood They need to represent themselves as a no as I am someone who is truly right right You wouldn't actually want me to be here now and how did Jacob work out well for once in your life, listen to the cramps revisions, history is produced by Jacob Smith. You'll about with leaving us, do aluys that and on an aim, our editor is Julia Barton. Blonde Williams is our engineer fact checking by best Johnson music by Luis Gara, special thanks to Carl migratory. Had a feigned Eric Sandler, Maggie Taylor and L, half Jacob Chicken vicious history is brought to. You
push could industries and your resident nihilist, Malcolm.
Transcript generated on 2020-08-06.