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In March, in eighteen, eighty six and then go move from Antwerp to Paris to live with his brother Theo. In more marked the very soon became befriended with some of the other artists living there would become very famous within the next decades like for it. Ample pulsing yak. Only the Toulouse Lou take immediate them now and some others, and he learned a lot from them. Stefan cooled off german art expert. And that led to his willingness to make experiments in becoming an arduous when he pain and rather dark brownish grayish tones during his time before in the Netherlands, He now was willing to try out what to do with color how to form things with color in Van Gogh's effort to master oil painting. He painted still lives, mostly flowers. He couldn't afford me

rules in a space of a few years, he produced dozens and dozens of paintings. The Paris period means that from got just have decided to become an artist. He no longer wanted to try. Other professions, like you did before, like being a preacher or teacher or helping people. He now made the decision. I to be a painter, and he knew that Paris is the place to be let him his mouth and global listening to revision is history by podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This episode the continuation of my investigation into the hoarding habits of art, museums, it's about what those dozens of still lifespan go painted in his Paris period. Small canvas

Seventeen inches by fourteen inches Vas with carnations that little painting it turns out has a strange and troubled history. Bingo painted Vas with carnations right after his arrival in Paris at some point his death. For years later, it was acquired by a wealthy german couple at wish. Woman and her husband about women were one of the most important are collector couples in Frankfurt in Western Germany they made their money out of business. They vary only decided to invest money in works of art which were not commonly regarded as very important works, so they were very daring. Collectors.

That shows that it was not only investment. It was also the love of art which lead, Into buying works, for example, by fungal, but also by some Impressionist painters had with almond sold as of carnations on consignment to an art dealer who took it back to New York just before the Second World WAR that dealer in turn sold it to William gets one of the most powerful producers in Hollywood. Gets in his wife, Edith, daughter of the legendary Louis be mayor had one the greatest private collections of impressions, art in the world. My grandmother was covered, hostess Hollywood and she spent her entire life hosting a lavish than are highly complex, avoids ready a chemical party in your Brenner

That's gets his granddaughter Victoria bleeding. I knew I had dinner with me on the day when I was six years old. You know a visiting a month for France and mature and dig eyed and the many suppresses our childhood finger. Bowls and the home I hear, and then they would have movies in the living room and in the living room currencies in the pictures of a fairly necessary, though the Monet, the glue forecasts, the other bokassa was she had. A heart was going up and all his rival or another for me said the driveway in the living room on how to everything and that a painting will come off in a scream, come down and then move on smooth, whether my father's, the priceless or would disappear into the ceiling in a movie screamed would descend in its place. If that is the greatest metaphor for Hollywood, I don't know what is in nineteen thirty.

Six Kirk Douglas started a movie about Dango called lust for life. Few people know the real story of this intense wrong willed man. Now his tumultuous career is revealed for the first time with frankness, and it was with all. If you look at the corner of the movie poster from us for life there it is fast, is coming since, but by then gets it sold it. He didn't hang onto his Van Gogh the way he did his other treasures. It wasn't for him. The painting pass to the heiress to the Kmart fortune, Catherine Cresty, who, among other things, was once married to us yes baron. She convinced him to leave London and come live during her native Detroit. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the swedish barons order for Miss Gretzky did not survive the move to miss when crazy died and ninety ninety she will vote with carnations to the Detroit Institute of ART. She gave it without

stricken meaning the dossier as its known could do with it. What they wanted, salad traded. They didn't have to make it part of their permanent collection. Crosbie didn't care anymore, for the painting then gets did and neither did the DNA. They put it in a basement for twenty years. Since then go painted many remarkable canvasses. This is now one of them the also painted larger flower still lives in Paris, but this is a smaller one, thus kind of canvas which I think was not meant for sale or as a present for acquaintances or friends or his model or so it was just for. Trying out things are experts like too damn with faint praise, thus with carnations gets a lot of faint brace, it's very nice, it's very profound, but it's not very well of spectacular

composition or color combination. It's just a kind of. Let me try out would have If I do this, if I do this and certain in nice, but not really an important work, the current head of the Detroit instead, part Salvador seller ponds says the problem is advise with carnations. Just doesn't look like an ngo when you say it doesn't look like of anger. What do you mean? Does he look like the sunflowers yeah? I mean he's typical work like you would like the tough portrayed or the work that he did when he was in this. For France to the most famous works that the Public knows bongo did then there is the fact that the painting had a stamp on the back, a sign that it was painted on a fancy bit of stretch, canvas then go in his parish years was broke. What was he

with a fancy canvas it took years to resolve that particular discrepancy in Meantime, lots of people began to think Vas with carnations was a fake later we discovered that dad converse with the staff on the back was not actually part of the world was added later, so you had, the original can best than you have lining combats glued to the regional canvas, and they will you had this third canvas. We dispensing lorries on the back. So what would remove that? We understood that was not part of the original work So here we have a Van Gogh does not look like a Van Gogh debt, never intended to be sold or shown, or even given away that a Jew

when couple bought somewhere around the turn of the century and then sold that turned up in the home of a Hollywood mogul and served as a prop in a cook. Douglas movie poster then finally landed in Detroit. With a Kmart heiress who threw it in as an afterthought when she made her bequest to the dossier, whereupon the painting languished in a cellar for a quarter century because of a dubious bit of canvas glued to the back. What's your personal feeling about this painting, do you like it? Are you drunk? I like it, because I have a personal story connected to it. You know when I can. To the museum, the bank. It wasn't a storage as an option painting by Van Gogh with basically no value. I was able to bring it up to the galleries and put it together with the other four Van Gogh's them

die, has a word that looks like a painted by a Sunday painter She, thereby by a forger, would have no value, no monetary value but the minute we consider it as by hand, though he has a value of several million dollars. However, the treaty has not changed The painting continues to be what it is. Why has change is the perception that we have and that is a really interesting concept: the sea shore like the painting. I love for that yeah. But if someone said to you, when you retires directory, you can take one of the day. I stand goes with you, which one would you take not this now, so why should we care about funds with carnations? We shouldn't it's, not the painting, the matter.

The painting is just a Mcgovern about travel in case you know what I mean by Mcguffin: let's consult the Dick Cavett show one thousand nine hundred and seventy two, What's guests? Is the legendary film director, Alfred Hitchcock, the great proponent Mcgovern's? Explain what I'm a guy for years, a mug gaffin You see in most films about spies. This is the thing that the spies are often in the days of Rodger Kipling. It will be the plans of the fault on the Khyber Pass. It would be the plan

of an airplane engine and the plans of an atom bomb. Anything you like it always called the thing that the characters on the screen worry about the audience, don't care. The Mcgovern is an object used to propel the plot. To motivate the characters but which has no intrinsic value to any one else. Paused with carnations is Mcgovern each described in a shame. In an english train going to Scotland, one man says Julie, other offers emitted. What's that package about your head, there now elements with all that that someone got it's. What is a Mcgovern is one is an operator's. Crappy lie in the scottish where's your brother on land and the scottish it'd than that's no Mcgovern

thank you for clearing metaphors. I repeat: it's not the painting matters. That has always been that mistake with the way people of thought about visas with carnations, no more Mcgovern's after the break. Let's start to story again, what's the number one side of a bad home security system, home security system gets so complicated, you never use it. This is exactly the type of security system simply safe has spent a decade fighting against. They believed that simple is safer and it's exactly why simply safe is v home security for right now, when feeling safe at home has never been more important. Simply safe was designed to be easy to use while protecting your whole home. Twenty four

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Learn, more attracts Psmith, dot, com, slash revisionist history and use code, Gladwell check out for fifteen dollars off your first order of seventy five dollars for more there's. Just talk about your family, your great grandmother his headway omen. Yes, that's correct! Yes, she came from a family who had for a very long time lived in Frankfurt, many many relatives of very embedded history in the city. I'm talking with Sophie Alan. She lives in Melbourne. Her great grandmother was headache omen the first known owner of OZ with carnations headway was born in eighteen. Seventy two into a wealthy family in Germany, married Albert Omen, live with him.

In a grand residents caught the villa girl, luck in Frankfurt and together built an extraordinary our collection, so she collected with a great passion, medieval sculpture. There was a huge passion of hers. She collected porcelain. She collected over and she slipped Shi Ite population had different rooms for each of these passions in her home headway and Albert had two sons and many grandchildren, one of whom was named Claude serve his father, he remember headway. Ah, he was so attached to headway. Here he was, I think, the favours, and- and she was his favorite- always spoke of a really fondly, and I think he felt that that was probably personally love. The most did he but what she was like. Yes, a little bit yeah army for money. Could

members as a young boy, very warm and loving, and quite gentle incredibly interested in the arts, but the life of clothes and parents took a sudden turn because the omens were. Jewish Frankfurt was already starting to change and by nineteen thirty three and I'm not sure exactly what date. But I know that going to the opera became an issue if you had a jewish heritage, You couldn't get. There was a state where you couldn't go to the offer, and that was something that had big constantly. She lives around the corner from the opera house in her lost off how to change inside of my grandparents, so they left they lift first, and he didn't come to MILAN to write in a baby with six months

the last six months there were. There she's gonna belong at what year. Thirty eight of the thirty nine. What you're gonna do. I think it was the right at the end of nineteen thirty, eight, the end of nineteen thirty eight was, of course, kristallnacht the night of broken glass when at Hitler's direct mobs destroyed, hundreds of synagogues and you Shavers across Germany. It was impossible to be a german jus after Kristallnacht and imagine that you are safe headway sold off as much of her art collection. Is she could she fled to MILAN to join her sons, then

intentions of Mussolini towards juice, became clear and the whole family flat again this time to Australia survey they got out in the nick of time. Yes, they did, and I think I ve the Panama Canal, I'm ever my father. I dont know how, as he could have remembered that cause he was of just under two years of age, but I think it was about a six week trip and the two brothers with their families. They both had two children aged and head because the as the matriarch they brought her all up. So they were, there were nine of them. They made it to Melbourne change their last names. Omen became Alan may of nineteen. Forty five four days before the end of the war had died. My father, my uncle probably spent most of their lives. Just a similar. Eighteen and.

Embracing the life they had, and I think bearing the sadness as much as they could cause is that there is definitely a said. There's gratitude and this sadness the go they kind of almost they. They go along together and alive, and then it's come through my generation to in a way here then laid in his life Claude Alan decided to revisit the families passed to find a families are collection that had been lost in the desperate escape from Germany. What do you think motivated him, but was his how it here expressed his design to pursue these claims without signing dramatic. It's just. I that my father, all throughout his life, some degree. Maybe within it I keel. He struggled with the fact that the family had had to leave Europe.

Like a baseline in his life, that that there has been a massive disruption and and then at each car the sense of loss started what it would have started with the loss of head, vague. That would be the first was he could understand, because it was a love grandmother the one who gave him who dose it on him from the stories. I thought he was. These days. And he was closer to his Kate to head VIC than he was to his own mother? So Claude Alan sat down and went through his grandmothers papers, trying to reconstruct what artwork she and her family had owned in the years before the war and They had ended up. Some of the works had vanished. Others were in plain sight. You can find a few for yourself if you spend a few hours poking around the internet is a pogo gas. So by had big sister in law in nineteen thirty eight ass. She too,

fled Frankfurt that painting ended up at Toledo. Museum of ART in Ohio family had sold to go again. With a lovely Van Gogh called the diggers, the diggers, ended up in the hands of a department, store air who then gave it to the Detroit instead of art in the late nineteenth. Is this a virgin and child by Lucas Chronic the elder from the sixteenth century, now the University of Arizona Museum of ART. Then there were the four beautiful wall panels in headwind, dining room by the prominent Claude Alan, couldn't find out where any of those had gone. And finally, there was the small modest still life acquired by had wig and her husband back in the There was the small modest still life acquired by her and her husband back in the hay day of their collecting vas with Carnations Vincent Tango, eighteen, eighty six

I wasn't alive during headaches lifetime. I wasn't even born of involvement, quarter of a century even more, but she was very much a part of our lives, which was talked about constantly and very fondly, and ever the inner her life was all around us in some way? As Claude Ellen begin, investigation into had been lost or collections other hollow survivors in a family started to do the same thing. They were conferences. Laws passed Europe in particular, had a growing movement to reconsider the status of art, sold, lost or confiscated during the war, and it seemed that the world was changing. An investigation might be possible. My father was very excited and hopeful deeply hopeful about it.

Was I had it every different reaction. I was a young at all the time I was almost sort of like I don't. Let's don't get your hopes up, don't go there. It's it's! It's just going to bring up. I think it's because I thought it was gonna bring up. Please feelings that I knew were down there, but I know what they were and it's it's very it's actually. So someone who said generation is still very confronting and that's actually surprised as May and still continues to surprise me. I never met head week. So why do I feel like this? But I do it is very much a part of me.

It's almost inexplicable, it's I'm sort of trying to interrogate a little bit more now, because I have to face some of these things because some of these situations with the paintings and what to do with the legacy. I think it's a really interesting and important point, because it was when your father pursuits of these groups is not just about the art. It's about healing, oh yeah, absolutely its necessarily about material possessions, material possessions, a kind of like the market is its or everything orients itself around, but it's not actually what this is really all about. The art is a symbol near. I think it's important to understand what Claude Oven was up against in his attempt to locate his grandmothers lost or collection,

so digression about a man named Charles venerable some music, Venerable was named director of the Speed ART Museum in Louisville Kentucky. He was his first directors job and he decided to begin by taking a closer look. Museums, collection and started with our works and paper collection. Where we were just gonna get an exit you know gets an expert he's in and we will look at every single work on paper to help him venerable brought in a former cure. Or from the Cleveland Museum of ART, which has one of the countries best collections of works on paper by the time we went through everything she said, you have about fifty exceptional pieces out of one huge collection, but we probably had Couple thousand over

and then then she said and here's another group that are nice, but in the end it was light you she just get rid of all these keep two fifty good ones that places the rest vegetable sold at auction. If I'd ask you before that process began in Louisville, what percentage worry ass. What would you say, books and paper, not my territorial area, but nevertheless, I would have said you know you would have to have half of them, I suppose be exceptional works of art, or where would you ve taken vegetable? Next became the director of the The Annapolis Museum of ART or, It is now known new fields when he arrived, the museum had fifty five thousand objects it was adding close to a thousand new objects a year and was on the verge of, building a multi million dollar storage facility to how's its ever expanding collection. And vegetables main thought was what if Indianapolis was like, Louisville and

so the stuff they were storing at such great expense wasn't worth keeping so and is curators at new fields began coming through every one of these checks in museums, collection, they assigned each artwork a grade a for something that any museum in the world would want bees with things that mates Spur Indianapolis to have at its collection sees. Were these didn't belong at all the good stuff and a bad stuff were easy to identify, but it took yours to figure out the bees and sees the curators did tons of research debated and kept going piece by piece. Our collection is now about forty fourth, and works of art down from fifty five, fifty five thousand but vegetables still not finished, right now are collection based on six years of ranking is about

thirty, three percent aces right there. Those are going nowhere, so there's thousands works of art and then clearly we would want a good number of bees of works. We couldn't replace or their their consider, Were they to be an gallery for one reason or not? But if you take the seas and the rest of our ds? You know, there's probably I'm guessing will be it. Twenty five, thirty thousand works of art they have thousands. Ago to be auctioned off were given away. We had huge how big holdings in contemporary glass, we don't need four hundred pieces in storage, so we gave a hundred pieces of Every glass to the black Sea, for glass at Ball State University in Movements Indiana, so students could learn technique from them. Now, if you listen to the previous episode, you know that no one does this in a museum world.

No one tries to get smaller. No one If things away like that, certainly not The scale of venerable is doing in Indiana, because most art museums Alex smog the dragon, their hoarders, deep in their layers, fiercely guarding their treasures. Here's an actual headline from art news, one of the major publications of the art world Quote- is Charles venerable Democratizing, a great art museum in Indianapolis. Or destroying it are you kind of Mary Mary Condo have her? Is yours, Your apartment like minimalist, you get rid of old clothes, you no longer where the disease carry over to your private life. Why not particularly I mean My husband is much more than eat Nick, who would say, I'm gonna go. My clothes and get rid of all these things. Whereas I'm saying I I just love that shirt and it might hanging my closet for you know, years years it could be

years. Old choose even worse, But that's not running an army. Asean chose vegetable is different, not because you, some kind of weird need Nick he different because he sees the problem. His profession has and he's figured out. Where did do something about it? I asked Randy Frost about what it takes to convince a horror to thin their collection he's. The psychologist we met in the last episode who studies hoarding he told me that with horror, the first step is talking about the object, so you see in this case the act of voicing someone to conceive and verbal eyes their touch. The object helps them get rid of yes shatters. The bond in some way are well. I think puts their attachments into the context of the values of their life because we focused on values what

that you value in your life. What do you want your life to be like an once? You start talking about this and have these set of ideas about the value and where you want to go in your life. To gather It changes the that the violence of the object. This is what Charles venerable his curators were doing in Indianapolis as they work their way through the collection changing the violence of the objects they were asking. What is it that we value as a museum? Is this object consistent with those values, acquiring or cost money. The museum is a non profit with a mandate to serve the people of Indiana venerable doesn't see how collecting more and more stuff that the public never see not diminish spending. Millions of dollars to warehouse it somewhere is consistent without responsible

you know you need more conservators. You need more art handlers. You need more registrar if you need bigger computer system, if you ask Charles Venable to give up a work of art for some broader Rodger reason, he could do it because he's developed a system for giving things up. Asked him theoretically about how he and his curators might evaluate fuzz with carnations if it were in their collection of data by the famous artists, as you could find, but is very much a minor work of that. This. Is that not is that they are not a name knowing that particular painting- yes, I'm just thinking as it isn't that right, question famous hard is minor work. We wouldn't call it a day, we would get. We would give it a little bump because by then go a very famous artists, but it wouldn't make it an age is because it had his name on It would have it would be. A minor work by that art is done in the questions we would ask is

are we doing great art is by then in many ways change the course of western art. History are we doing his legacy and his work a good deed by showing. Pre minor mediocre work in a great institution and we are particularly attention than has much better works by Van Gogh where you can show an ape class at a place like the Troy, what Would you bother with a minor thing if we were offered a painting? I thought we would somebody wanted, we wouldn't buy it for sure, and if somebody wanted to give it to us, we would say well with. This is not something that's right to go in our walls. If you want it, give it to us. Are you willing to let a solid and then bring bring the money back? the collection by something that your name can go.

Charles venerable is adept at changing the violence of the objects in his possession. He can give things up, but he's exception The rest of the world is still in the grip of their compulsion, has the world slowly begins to be open nexus once again looks to people for inspiration asking a simple question: that's been on everyone's mind of all the places you're looking forward to. Where will you go first? your streets, but perhaps unknown roads or Creasy down Grand boulevards

flooring lanes along the coast or long interstate highways. A journey starts on the main, drag and ends on off the beaten path. Wherever you go is Alexis for a rerun Maybe today, tomorrow, will be the next month whenever you're, ready Nexus will welcome you back with exceptional offers on exceptional views, find out all the ways Alexis kinda yours access experience amazing should exist. You so backed Claude Ellen who, as a child

Europe with his family about fifteen years ago Alan started: ask any museums, holding headwind art to do a version of what Charles Venerable does at Indianapolis or what Randy frosts tries to teach hoarders to break their attachment to a specific object. By asking a broader questionable, its relationship to their own values. In essence, Alan told the museums, my grandmother, and her family sold some of their prize possessions in a moment of desperation and panic to help finance their escape from certain are you sure you feel right about owning an object with that kind of history? Alan started with the go again

street in two hundred and eighty and then go the diggers that were once owned by Hedwig's, brother and sister in law. All in and a group of his relatives approached the Toledo Museum and the Detroit Institute of ART with their requests. The family was forced to give these paintings up under duress in nineteen thirty eight. Could you get them back? And what happened the to museums turned around and suit the allowance? That was in order to- and this is one of those wonderful legal, euphemisms quiet, the title to the painting and when the case went to court, the music and one on the narrow grounds that the statute of limitations had expired according to the federal court into choice. The island's case would have been valid only if they had filed a claim for the diggers within three years of when the painting was for sold it was sold in nineteen thirty eight, so they needed to have asked for back by nineteen forty one. When

Those members of the Ellen family, who had not managed to flee for their lives, were sitting in concentration camps, Alan ass, the museums to consider the morality of their attachments? They responded by pointing to the legality of their attachments. They do want to make this about values. No Horta would Consider the story of another then go a spectacular painting called the night cafe was one's own by a russian collector why should exceed it when they took power in nineteen? Eighteen, it's worth hundreds of millions. Today later it was sold by the Soviets to the heir to the singers sewing machine fortune. The soviets collected a huge profit. The air later willed it to the Yale University ART Museum, then

the original owners. The Senate came together and said that painting was stolen from my great grandfather. Did he I'll give it back Costa? They suit the great grandson and one there is a bokassa in the Metropolitan Museum in New York, called the actor worth well A hundred million dollars it had been owned by Paul and Alice left meant a jewish in Cologne, Germany, who fled for alien, Eighteen, thirty, seven sound familiar: they saw the painting to pay for their escape.

There are great grandly suit. The man to get it back saying that it was given up under duress. The court ruled in favour of the met. The judge in the case said that the lessons learnt technically under duress, because dress for the purposes of the law requires quote fear induced by a specific and concrete threat of harm purposefully presented by its author to extort the victims. Consent, in other words,

in order for the lessons to get their Picasso back? An official in the Nazi Party would have had to come to them in nineteen, thirty, seven put a gun directly to their head and say, sell me your Picasso and because the fascist chose to be a touch more subtle in their methods of extortion. That painting still hangs today on the walls of the man and Vas with carnations. There's a legal loophole in their cases. Well had we gave it to an art dealer in nineteen thirty eight, but that was to sell on consignment and the art dealer took it to New York and didn't get around to selling it until after the war was over. Headway may have given it up under duress of nazi threat, but it wasn't sold under the direction of the nazi threat. Claude Allen had no legal claim divisive carnations. Just a moral claim

moral claims, matched up against the compulsion of the holder don't amount to much. In the end, it was not a museum. Tat returned any piece of headaches. Original are collection, it was a packaged goods company when it sells flower biscuits in beer. He occur group based three hours north of Frankfurt. The craft foods of Germany, the company's former CEO Rudolf August, occur, had an extensive. Our collection The company did a providence check of his paintings and they discovered that a nineteen fifty four Rudolf had bought one of the four HANS Toma well paintings that it once hung in head weeks living room. A large canvas of children dancing around a blooming tree when they out of the blue. Your father hears that wanted his beloved grandmothers paintings is coming back here, said a really hit him

the court the heirs did not know the whereabouts of the painting? I'm really now from the short statement released by the are group. After they contacted the islands, the company advise them, but the painting was in its possession and that it wished to return it to them on moral grounds. The heirs have grateful accepted geometric. Can you describe what what happened when he first dad would have cried here. He was quite emotional and whose emotional about that this aspect- and we had several conversations I read and any with chronically every single time. Is it a beautiful paintings? Yes get. It is it's it's a beautiful paintings, but it also starts to complete this. Call within our family. The stories we would tell because headache

A room where there were the date they their hands time a works. It was a dining room. They were painted around the room and pounced Hama, I think, was one of the artist love the most so to have a work returned was was it it was like. I owe MR completing the circle and near it, it was. It was deeply meaningful, especially to my father, caught Ellen died shortly after his grandmothers painting was returned as revised with colonel, since its still in Detroit, the islands are not pursuing their claims to that painting. They know they never win, and where is the painting currently? Is it now on display, or is it still in storage, whereas it now in the in a museum. It's on display is being on display and it was recently. Feature in an exhibition in the bar

really gallery imposed on next to Berlin. Better still lacks. The Detroit instead of art is in MID term Detroit Ass would would avenue from the main branch of the public library a beautiful building with an extraordinary collection. If you get a chance, go and see savers with carnations and if you like it stopped by the gift shop. Pick up a pair of values with carnation saw for one thousand nine hundred and ninety five one size fits all and buzz with carnations, aloe soap for one thousand six hundred and ninety five in a little around ten, with Van Gogh's carnations on the cover, but don't spend too much time. Thinking about the painting, the painting is Mcgovern think about where it came from and what it stands for and then do me a favor when you leave put a note in the suggestion box. I have seen far with carnations. It doesn't belong

religious histories produced by meal, a bell and leaning gets too with Jacob Smith Halloween Lit and on a name, are editors, Julia Barton original scoring by Luis Gara, mastering by flown Williams, fact checking by Beth, Johnson and special thanks to the Pushkin crew had a thing colleague, Mig Liore, Maya, caning, Maggie Taylor G, single brow and, of course, L, half egg Jacob iceberg. I mountain grab.