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Revisionist History Presents: Against the Rules with Michael Lewis


Malcolm Gladwell presents Ref, You Suck!, the first episode of the newest podcast from Pushkin Industries: Against the Rules with Michael Lewis.

Rage at referees is all the rage in professional sports. Michael Lewis visits a replay center that’s trying to do the impossible: adjudicate fairness.

If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to Against the Rules wherever you get your podcasts.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hello, revisionist history, listeners, Malcolm Global here, I'm hard at work on season for or which is coming your way in June. In the meantime, I want to send you the floor. Episode of our newest show from Pushkin industries the audio content company. I found it with my good friend Jacob iceberg against the rules. Hosted Michael Louis, the author of money, ball, liars poker and the big short. I have always said that Michael is the greatest story, teller of our generation and in this series he considers a strange and troubling phenomenon affecting sports business law. Even the dictionary Michael's argument is that wherever you look the referee, the person whose job it is to maintain a sense of fairness is under attack. Everyone Pushkin is really proud of the show and hopes that, if you like it, you'll subscribe wherever you listened to,
You can also let us know what you think by giving us a review on Apple podcast. My favorite thing, though, is a tagline. It comes from Michael, lose. His son, don't pick sides unless it's my side, so we're walking across a parking lot is caucus. New Jersey were surrounded by concrete, nothing green. It took a lot to get me
place their chain hotel in motels in someone's idea of em all, but I have a hunch, a suspicion about the crisis that we find ourselves in filled with cheap chain restaurants and wish rapid on all sides by freeways. It's like what people think about when they tell jokes about New Jersey. I think you can see what's going on right here in the Caucasus, able compressing afore story, rectangular, otherwise, nondescript concrete, build, there's a discreet little sign here. That says and be a and shows a logo with a basketball player inside a recent concession to the world. We live in the replace, enter a place where basket
referees review the calls made by other basketball referees in real time to minimize referee error. The replace enter was built to persuade people that life was fair, I make a Louis, and this is against the rules? It's a show about. Look at me just a minute to get to that is, it is it it doesn't get. Asia doesn't like. This is a place where Brown is an exciting color. And the door is locked.
me this story really begins not in Secaucus but in Berkeley. California, with my eleven year old Son, his name's Walker, Walker, Louis he plays on a basketball team run if you can believe it by a japanese Buddhist Temple. My son is in a Buddhist the most of the time he could pass for. One is no conflict with his teachers or his class made certain his japanese buddhist teammates, I would say as mind, is exactly pure, but usually it's called. The exception is when he deals with rafts. Even Buddhist any time a rough blow, the whistle on and throws up his arms in astonishment and he jumped up and with a little fist, balled up in his mouth Clinton I'd. So everyone knows just how much injustices suffering Then he marges off with a scowl and it doesn't get over after a game the seas and he gets into the
It starts bitching and moaning all over again. How did it make you feel when the rough made those calls Madge? Do you feel any better now now coming out feels feels, like someone gives poking you in the back of the shoulder and then saying foul foul foul foul, have you ever felt out your career? now. Did you know that you are a risk of falling up gasp so I knew if I did. It would be unfair, because I knew that he was coined the stupidest vows Hell Hole, looked back and say: oh, I was being huge asshole play with a state of fresh way with the thing is
I know I, my son does what he does. He thinks he's Clay Thompson, the all start shooting guard the golden state warriors when clay hits a three clay pounds his chest and points to the sky, and so in Walker Louis hits ITALY. He two pounds is chest and points to the sky technical way. When clays call for a foul he scowls and throws up his arms in astonishment and sometimes even says something to the rough. It gets him slapped the technical Wonderingly Entire regularly c and plays the famously most laid back all star in the entire National Basketball Association. Something has happened in the relationship between referees and players of the last. I guess you're too, that's Ramona Selborne she's covered the NBA for the last decade for yes, p in its bent
frankly ugly this year, one of the warriors head, but it ref another chucked. His disgusting mouth guard offer rests chest be careful and some of the stuff I've seen when dream on green is, is getting fined for calling Lorna whole cap and can because on your bike ass, I think we already have a fucking bitch like like when, when he is saying that to a female referee and getting find in suspended for that man, that's an ex level, and I haven't seen that before this easy, it's the stars now who are really pushing issue right. It's Kevin Durrant, getting thrown out of games, its staff Currie Gang thrown out
in a single season. Bad behaviour got various golden state warriors tossed out of ten different basketball games, Kevin Durrant, their best player tied a league record by getting tossed from five games all by himself. The men who coach the stars are much better, even Steve Kerr, the warriors famously decent civic minded coach. I can snap I can lose it. If you back away from the goals they orders, I may their exemplary in the way people should be paid to the especially a star as they like impeccably behave people. I am so pleased to have my son emulating your players the only time their problems It is with reference. I can't imagine you in your life. Have
another relationship like you have now. He right, I would never say the thing said: I do to refugees to a person in normal life. It happens two or three times a year and I've been caught on camera amassing rough patio, my daughter or semi attacks like TAT, which do in its Oliver Twitter. I can read your lives, is the bear and I'm embarrassed. So why is you know it's a sense of right or wrong? You I've. I feel like there's like this personal fence, like something unfair as happening, which brings me to my hunch. It has to do with referees and not just basketball referees the people everywhere charged not just with enforcing rules
but with preserving a sense of fairness on Wall Street in the news in courts of law. In the many little disputes that pockmarked everyday life, there many different kinds of rest and most or into some kind of attack, so maybe the surprising that Americans one day woke up and thrill, to the message that life was unfair? you know. This is really exist. Ring a kind of banking re read a lot of things that are rigged in this world of ours, not of fairness. We grew ruling that America was about, which brings me what the show is about The people whose job it is to maximize fair- it is not just in sports, the most everywhere which happening to them tells us a lot about. What's happening to us.
You have to listen closely, but you can that same chance. In a lot of american life raft, you suck Here we go back at the NBA offices in Secaucus, New Jersey, someone
eventually came in and locked the door and then they, let me down a hall filled with a lot of old basketball, stuff jerseys in Babo, hedge and basketball, posters of Michael Jordan. The replay centre was the ultimate mankind. Man came back. Do you have any it's also the latest weapon in the battle, for fairness that his place just on. First, you is amazing, its wall, the Wall screens, one hundred and ten of them. With Them is whatever is captured by all the cameras in twenty nine NBA arenas across the country. This isn't the broadcasts, video commercials and commentary? The screens here don't even have the scores of the games on them or the names of the teams playing in their muted, which here is referees staring at basketball games. What you see is nothing but angles: unprofessional, basketball, courts nobody's ever then he walked down, satisfies sucks, I'm not gonna, say it succeed, that's job
who designed the centre back in two thousand fourteen and now runs it before he volunteered for Secaucus duty. Here For red and be a games, father was an MBA ref before him with a break in the late sixties, a Borgia has been nothing professional basketball games. Since nineteen forty six, you went back your dad beginning of his career and said this is what it's gonna look like. What do you figure If I told them, we would have replaced turnover in his grey forget about a reply centre right absolute. You see that used to insist on their authority in any everyone agreed that there was no better way to ensure the fairness of the game than to let the rough play. God. The replay centre is an admission that the rough is not God that he makes mistakes. I think dimension of replay. None of us like them
We first heard it it's a necessary evil, its necessary. You have to have today everything's tape. Now everyone pays more attention to the referees mistake so the NBA has to as well. Now when a rough thinks he might screwed up some call or didn't get a good look at the action. Whirls his fingers in the air. That's the sick! for the rest in the replay centre, who goes to work, reviewing the tape looking for the best angle, to figure out what actually happened. That's the thing is, everybody can see exactly can't have then be in a better position to judge the game. Efforts have the replay centres. What allows rests on a basketball court to change their calls, a lot of those calls or subjective like whether one player found another the rest on the court, still make most of those calls themselves the exception
when the FAO is flagrant sure degree interviewed angles, that's the first one, the other ones, there's blood on the screens. Kevin loves front too got knocked in love plays for the Cleveland Cavaliers and the question is: did the guy who put him in the mouth? Do it intentionally basketball point come along? I haven't sir move into where the guy's open. Who's going up. The rest need to decide if the violence was not just excessive but unsportsmanlike which sounds archaic because we sort of lost the concept, so the blood doesn't swear the decision. Contacts on a lot of its accident, I was accident possible following the
There's all stand around scratching themselves, while the rest put on headsets and talk to the replace it we're looking for the unnatural. Did he thro his elbow out, so the family leave with the fowl was like a lot. I thought it was our desire to smoke. He was motionlessly, quick. Second, like an ugly, the hall thing only takes thirty seconds thirty seconds in which players fans, coaches, get even more pissed off at the rest for takings along the only thing, stopping the replay centre from checking every decision. Is it it's The game down here in Secaucus is still trying to figure out how they might talk to the rest and they run up and down the court, because if they could do that to get a fix, every call on the fly special forces we found now we actually use a chip over the more
worked off the vibration about believing that we definitely we got a handful of Julie, referees moulded and we tested to wear a chip over their moment, but it wasn't one good enough because they didn't know where the voice was coming. It was just a voice in their ads I didn't know that a coach stock- and this is actually insane time and money now being spent to ensure the fairness of what, after all, is just a basketball game? Gillian MILES of fibre optic cable connect. This room directly to the NBA arenas around the country, offer to calls again at two holes again fifty million vows to build this? You have to get to construct a guy like you gotta, do you gotta do? Can I just pause here a moment just to consider with the NBA is done in the past few years to improve the calls. For example. They
brought in serious managers to hire and train the rest. Joe Borgia calls his boss, the general because she's, actually a general and an airforce pilot, Her name is Michel Johnson and before she. Supervised? Nba rest? She ran the AIR Force Academy. It sounds like overkill to use a general to make sure basketball games are well raft, but the NBA thought it needed over he'll, just morleys at least Adam silver. The NBA commissioner, did if people don't believe that the League office is unbiased and that the officials or on biased, you're gonna have a problem, regardless of the act c of the cause silver took over in two thousand and fourteen, and also higher Joe Borg to create the replay centre. Since then, the NBA commissioners taken a ridiculous amount of grief for trying to improve justice in basketball. There are group of people who think that, without this sort of transparency that we see in this day and age that it enabled certain officials
and maybe with it, with a touch of frontier justice to overall create more of a fair environment. Even if that were true I'm not sure it is those days are over and I think it's weather, in sports or other walks of life that you cannot turn the clock back on transparency. So here's. What else silver is done? He's Braun the pool of people from which rafts are selected. They used to be mostly widen. Mostly from the same background at one point, fifteen, ago. Four NBA rafts came from the same high school he's higher more black roofs and female rafts he's insisted that referees be physically fit, so they can get in position to see all the plays, while everyone else in America's getting fat or the rest were getting buff also not getting new feedback on all their bad calls. Silver decided
published the mistakes made by every ref in the last two minutes of every game, so everyone could see them. He gives the teams and the rest a private document listing every reference, all this new data on means that we and they know all sorts of strange things about their minds. Just as we now know that their calls have tended to favour, whichever teams losing their calls also favour the home team. Some large part of home court advantage is just the rest The analytics department of the Houston Rockets has even on a study that shows that the home team that gets the best calls is the Utah jazz. Why Utah, who knows but you can be sure that summit will figure that out is now bay. Only a small army of geeks analyzing. All this new data. Look. I don't really like riding papers about sports Federation met the economy. That's just in warfare is behavioral economist at the University of Michigan and CO author paper about NBA rafts bit. The thing is
This domain mine, where the NBA referees have tremendous, disincentives not to make the wrong call every error they make his tract Those areas determine where they get more games. Those games determine how much they get paid. This is arguably most analyzed workforce in the country, basketball, rough. These are now picked a part in ways that not long ago would have seemed preposterous, not just for the fairness of their calls, but for their unconscious behaviour. First took years of data from every and be a game. Then he set out to look for evidence of the raft racial bias. The question here is whether people are anti blacker, anti white, but with isn't in group, buys so if it is permanently black tee, is playing and referring crew is predominantly white. They more fowls called against them, then on its wind, the same team is playing with a predominantly black referring crew and it sends out the answer is yes, wilfers wrote his paper.
Can in two thousand seven before this new age of referee transparency well, the lesson for me. You can probably told my axe it Michael I'm in Australia, throws instinct social science. It turned out the eight the New York Times, pull on the front page in the Ba wasn't happy the commissioner at the time, attack the study and embarrassed the league by trying and failing to refute its findings. This morning will here the NBA Commissioner David Stern. I referees are the most reviewed, most rank and most raided, and that's why we take exception to what the time did you hear that stern on NPR in two thousand and seven the rest, out of all this coverage, single referee, was made aware of his unconscious bias. When the dust settle just in wilfers was curiously, oh if his paper it had an effect. He made another study of referees after the controversy had created and guess what the most recent study that we did seems to suggest that form Rachel bias is going away
He has no idea why maybe play making the rest of where the problem was enough to correct it But in the end this became a case study not in rough ineptitude, but reform. Nba arrests have achieved what police forces can only dream of race blindness the I have no choice, the world's not you good, seeing their mistakes there's no way any basketball, referees, gonna, be perfect so no way these rest or anything but more accurate than they have ever been. I mean even home court advantage means less than it used to, and yet these rest are treated as if they try to ring the games. The sound of those eighteen thousand people screaming nature, a booming. You did any different than it sounded when you started in ninety nine. Yeah, there's there's a little more,
anger involved, and you know it used to be sorted out of the garden variety. Your terrible you suck any of those kinds of terms. That's money, Mc Cutchen, who recently quit roughing NBA Games serve as a kind of life coach to the other NBA rest to talk them through their problems. Now you know, people do their research, they things are there on the internet, they know your record with the with their team. They they ve done all There's all these sites on all these different, no personal things about you sure of course threats are made from time to time and play off series and you'll get security all the way to to both. Hotel and then the hotel, the next morning out to the airport and security to the hotel, not every night, but when those threats are are a known factor that has happened in my career, secure, to your car is mandatory every night. The up these days, reft need body guards to escape after the game. Here are people who are mostly just trying to do these extremely
difficult jobs as well as they can at some point, you feel this question rising up in you in May. It rose up while I was talking to Ramona, shall burn the ESPN reporter. I would anybody want to be around seriously. I wonder that to me and the way it's this show they are not allowed to say anything. Do not allow to explain themselves are not allowed find themselves? Look, obviously they get paid. They started a hundred, fifty Grand a year and if their great at their job and work extra games, they can make as much as five hundred, but there are lots of ways to get paid without spending half your life and hotel room, and the other half being insulted by arena is filled with crazy people. Do you think the refereeing has gotten worse or better? I think it's gotten better. Of course it's gotten better. How could it not have
The mystery is why the stars in the coaches, in the fans act as if it's gotten worse. I have a hunch about that to which will here in a minute, there's a sense of pride that comes with being able to talk, confidently unintelligently about a subject and feel it truly understand it. That's what the great courses plus is all about. With this streaming service, you have the freedom to learn more about virtually any topic and not just get the basics, but truly master learn unique respect it's from top engaging experts in their fields, there's unlimited access to thousands of lectures on everything from the illuminati black death, nuclear physics, C, B, T and so much more and the best part, with the great courses plus there's flexible to watch or listen just about anywhere revisionist history. Listeners should check out the sceptics guide to american history. This course
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for thirty hours by going to the great courses plus dotcom, Slash Gladwell, that's the great courses, plaster com, slashed, Gladwell Sacramentos, checking up to their there. It cannot clippers golden stable check. Clippers will check then about nine thirty Russia. I'm back with Joe Border in the replay centre. The reps here sit dressed in black, staring at screens waiting for a signal from somewhere in America. The end of games is when they get most involved because there when fans and coaches and players are most likely, your cue some wrath of having made the mistake-
the change the outcome. Of course, a mistake at the beginning is just as much effect on a game is a mistake at the end, but the end is what people notice and get outraged about so? The justice at the end of the game must be more exact than it is at the beginning. These rights, send a rest. Have video technicians with them. Who can fly he's a moment on screen then zoo. Resume in, so that the entire screen contains only a players fingertips or his toes. Here you to scroll through tiny slivers at the game, not the game itself, the slivers where injustices might occur. In goodness, raises, if you don't, have slow motion and hear freeze frame very difficult Course in slow motion you can see things that the naked eye, MRS magician, is sometimes perform during half times of the India Games. When Joe Borgia slows down you can see how they do their tricks. It's kind of the same thing with suppliers exactly I know a second of a second time.
Take a lot of little facilities. Players are getting good at his greeting optical allusions if it occurs. The sort sort of things at a magician. That's all, isn't flopping an optical illusion. Flopping is what they call it when a player pretends to been knocked over by another player, tricking. The raft into making bad calls is now considered a skill replacing I gave up. So you just had a game revenue twirls his fingers in the air. Some players in a three point, shouted the buzzer, or has he the Houston reference? of the players tone was on the three point. Why and if he got off the shot before the buzzword, equipment, it's just now the Joe says I can work the equipment. Can I, decided to run on. If I get the red, the truth is about a big equipment guy, My first step when something needs to be assembled or operated, is to call someone
and say I'll pay whatever it costs. I start twisting dials just to see what happened. I stay. They appear to cause the pictured. Assuming a now watch the referendum on the screen. You gonna see that you have to see the referee. Doing like a great asylum is something we hear him call there's a lot subjectivity and reference you don't get, but a whole bunch of the questions there. Eyes on. The basketball court have objective answers like who touched the ball asked for. Out of bounds, or was it time on the clock before the shot left, the players hands This is one of those did the players foot touched the three point line when he left, for he shot did the ball leave his fingertips before the buzzer sounded acquires a one of the dials, or maybe it's actually joystick, lets me: choose which angle the court eyes. I need to find one still frame with the shooters footing and another with the clock in it. Then I need to freeze the picture.
In the one sixtieth of a second that the ball left, the shooters fingertips Just doesn't I realized, I have no, why HU the player is. How do you know which team is on. We all I know is in Houston. Can I get out of here These are all the same. I guess it's pretty much if you please just awaiting army, did they think it occurred to me at that moment that they were possibly actually using? What I was doing and that this is a little buildings, the coaches get to stop the game with pointless time out. The advertisers get to stop game to sell beer, but when ref stops a game to make it more fair, the crowd booze. Now to launch attacks on them is enough to be right. You gotta be fast, Borgia. Try! The average response time of the replay rafts it's between twenty and thirty seven of the report.
Officially confirmed successful treatment. You got the problems dealt with, I think it is a right away. Another one comes up like, whereas on a bunch green, showing one arena. All these people are jumping round in how're. You rest is enriched. The ruckus appears to be. Find clearly, but in here it feels like the entire universe is disturbed. It turns out. Lebron James is upset his argument. Areas, branches going from Rafter RAF seems to know which rest to argue with its arm on call time. So their talk again, I think they might change. James is James, any other. Had the best angle, you think that will draw James has any effect doing that
The rough in Cleveland is not twirling his finger. There's no signal to us to do anything in the replay centre. The bronze drama, king, strictly speaking, is pointless. It strange the way these players argue. They must think that if they make life unpleasant enough for the wrath, you'll think twice before the next call its then that it occurs to me just looking around the room at a hundred and ten tv screens, I've had a hard time following The games never mind the scores. I sum I don't even know it's teams are playing, but every time apply or gets up into a referees face. I recognise the player she don't know that many NBA players, but I know all the ones who pitch these has he fits because the we players getting up into the faces of the raft? Are the famous players or the cautious who protect them removed? Children put a finger on it, the more
Massive behaviour towards rest isn't coming from. Every player coming from the stars Here is not a question. How are you supposed to know what to do with your money? Very few of us Four exposed meaningful advice on how to manage our finances even further. We have the means to get professional financial guidelines betterment is a platform was built to do something radical to give accessible financial advice. That puts you first, if you're, like most Americans he's probably sitting in a savings Equally earning you next to nothing. Maybe you have an investment account that you're not really sure was to do with betterment, can help you mix and what you do with your money, investing, while the rest happy or the ins and outs of the stock market to start saving more restart, investing feel better.
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and right now, net suite is offering you valuable insights with a free guide and seven key strategies to grow your profits nets. We dot com, Slash, Gladwell, that's net, sweet dot com, Slash Gladwell, to download your free guide, seven key strategies to grow your prophetess net, sweet dot, com, Slash Gladwell,. So we just got really interest in a very simple question of: does the sense of being privilege make you disobey the rules of the road of the laws of the land that Decker killed, he's. A professor of psychology Cow Berkeley, As someone who wonders about the effect inequality has on people's behaviour and experience, I had at Berkeley, whereas writing my back up this hill and I
I got to the forefront, stop sign and I was half way through this for waste outside. and this guy and a black Mercedes role through the stop sign is halfway. There is afoot away from me about to take me out and is honest, and I look at him- I agree to take him on like all right buddy. This is it and what was most telling about this whole experience was he looked at me as if I was in the wrong, and I should get out of his way- and you know, even though I made it through the stop sign first, so dagger and a colleague dreamed up this weird experiment. They hid to Berkeley undergraduates in the bushes near for way. Stop sides the undergrad, no The makes of all cars coming through the intersection assign them numbers one to five according to their market value, A new Mercedes was a five hundred
The three in an old pacer was a one. We position to Berkeley undergrad by a pedestrian zone and we make sure they look like they across the street. Right, no sort of leaning ended a pedestrian zone, whereas required by California law to stop it's a game of one or one in California, crosswalk one car verses, one pedestrian and zero percent of the drivers of poor cars zoom through the pedestrians. Are they all stop and forty some odd percent, forty five percent of the drivers of defied the five that rich cars blaze through the pedestrian zone- and you say the rules don't apply to me I'll- carry on
This one study led to a bunch of others that showed basically the same pattern of human behaviour, nother experiment we bring people to the lab and, as they're leaving, there's big ball of candy, and it's like it. It says on it for the children of the Institute of Human development on the ball, and we shall have to take a candle to review as your leaving add. Well, do we count up how many candies they take after they leave experiment. Privileged people grab a big handful of candy Cooper. The poorer people. So, let's turn the calm say something much more importantly: basketball motivated foreign of oil in the last five or six years,
The NBA is embarked on a centrally the dramatic reform, a referee. At the same time, the friction between the players and some of the owners and some other cultures and the rest is going through the roof. How the source of the outrages, the star players, people get thrown out a games or Kevin Dorette Staff, Curry and James hardened and the warriors the most famous team ever walk on the court are the chief culprits, exhibit ay and bad behaviour towards rafts. So you got this weird combination, fascinating you! Don't I still remember being Lakers fan, you know the green magic Johnson teams and watching Larry Bird do his nine step. Lay up and am I come out, make the call Larry Bird was likely Braun the new
cities of his day. He played with certain assumptions about the rules and how they apply to him for most players of his era. Two steps counted as travelling. The inequality on a basketball court is not found, is profound and is more profound. There was a very birds era got Larry. Bird was a millionaire, Lebron James might be a billion yes, and these guys are global franchise yeah. So you got in a funny way a microcosm it cannot. Because I'm on a basketball cord, what's goin on the largest society, the NBA set out to refugee more objectively, more accurately, more fair this is in rage, the stars in their fans and coaches. You want to know why the more objectivity there is the less power they have objective rafts eliminate some of their privilege. The stars can't get the cause any more. Just cause their stars or any way, not as often
Braun James and Kevin Doran and staff currying Clay Thompson though. Survive better rafts, because there actually does better than everyone else. They don't need unfairness to win But what happens where there are no replay centres where there is no hope for pure objectivity or technology to improve calls. Where the rest can no longer defend themselves from the stars. Welcome The reason for our show, I think American I've. Just now has at least one thing in common with basketball, the authority of us, freeze is under attack. And when you have a weak referee, you have a big problem, a week referees a referee who can be bought or intimidated or simply ignored the situation goes from being more or less well refereed two more or less not, then one day you wake up in a world that seems not just unfair
but actually sort of rigged. That is its incapable. Becoming fair, because the people who benefit from the unfairness have the power to preserve it. Boom. Did you flip a switch and a hundred and ten screens go dark although small Spain's you gotta do manually too big tvs wing at their remote form, but the most nights Yo Borgia stays at the replay centre until almost two in the morning. Somebody just him than a couple of rest staring at tiny slivers of basketball game is trying to impose justice on powerful people who don't want it think. I'm not saying I am not certain others, all Russia, not she got it, you do. They have to be partially option. Two hundred negative this one hundred percent negative business, why my son doesn't want arose that, unlike EVA Allen, aiming at one day, a young borgian naturally becomes a referee the next he doesn't one
most people think the roofs are more or less fair or at any rate, the notes a lot of time, blaming them for all their problems. The next day they wake up to radical inequality. The people on top the elites think their special they behave as people do when they think they're special young people emulate them without even thinking about it. It's too soon. That's how you act if you're a star or want to be. My first question is: Why, when you hear three point shot, which you often do why, in the past you panted your chest and pointed to the sky? I did it because the people on the earlier in the early, I did it. What do you think they're doing? What does it mean? I don't know it's like I'm cool. Do you believe in God? No
I knew what I mean now. I know what it meant, but no I don't so what does it mean? Basically, it's like thank you gone for heading three points of view. You think I was responsible when Clay Thomson. Eighty three points are to be honest: if God was watching over every by you whenever they hit is three point, shot I'll thinking that he would be able to take action make make them make the shop. So do you have anything you like to say to the referees of the world before we turn this recording off? Don't pick sides unless it's my site, then you I'm Michael Louis thanks for listening to against the rules, is our first episode. We ve got a lot more to come again
rules is brought to you by Pushkin industries, the shows produced by Audrey dealing and Catherine Giraldo with research assistance from Zoe Oliver Gray. Our editor is Julia. Barton me, a low bell is our executive producer. Athene was composed by Nick Brutal, with additional scoring. Samuel mastering by Jason Gambrels? Our show was recorded at North Gate studios in Berkeley by Tougher Ruth special thanks to our founders, Jacob Lice and Malcolm Gladwell. Angela, tenth twenty fifteen, a young woman named Sandra Bland, was stopped by a police officer on a highway and rural Texas. Then everything went wrong.
I have written a book called talking to strangers. It starts with that encounter, but I didn't just right for the page, I recorded an audio book as well new kind of audio book. That allows you to hear the voices of the people I talk to and come with me to the places I go because you shouldn't just listen to an audio book. You should experience it talking to strangers. The audio experience available now, where ever audio books or sold.
Transcript generated on 2020-01-12.