Brian Williams made a mistake and Malcolm vouched for him. So why hasn't Brian Williams reached out to Malcolm in response? "Free Brian Williams" came in second place from our "Revisionist Revisited" survey. Stay tuned in the coming weeks to hear our last listener favorite.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This episode of relation is history is brought to you by eighteen t business and I'm having a conversation with a president chief marketing officer, eighteen t business mocha, we're talking about the coming five key revolution, a narrow, going to explore a little deeper when we start connecting everything. Ass, lightning speeds: what did the possibilities? Real time, translation via your device as I'm walking down the street exactly so the beginnings of that exist today, however, when you think about each one of those comments-
has to go back to some central cloud that might be hundreds or thousands of miles away from here verses in a five g world, its literally within dozens of miles, so its assent
really doing it in real time, translating on your behalf, yeah yeah, flawless communication. Well, what's the point in taking languages anymore,
school he should. This should come along thirty years ago and save be high school. French. That's the start is more leeway more
when we come back at low cattle and now, ladies and gentlemen,
episode, the same.
Hello, hello, loyal revisionist historians, Malcolm Glauber? Here, as some of you may know,
we're in the middle of a celebration. Europe Pushkin our new season, which lunches June eighteen will be our fifth, our fifth anniversary, I believe the traditional fifth anniversary gift is. Would we
depressing by the way. Five years is a long time. You think you could do better than would what's romantic about. Would what you gonna give you love when a cutting board place, which is why here revisionist history, we ve done something much better for if it ever three revisionist revisited a listener contest to pick the greatest episode of revisionist his
three. Ever last week we began our countdown with the bronze metal winner, a good walk, spoiled the episode that is,
in May the enduring hatred of golfers everywhere and this week the silver medalist chosen by you.
Free brine Williams from season three brine Williams is, of course, celebrated in pc.
The men who had a moment on the Lake Sherwood David Letterman Williams, told us
worry about being on a helicopter that came under fire junior Iraq war, but in fact it was in his helicopter. It was the helicopter behind him. The controversy
people called him. A grand standing liar. He was suspended from his job and I thought wait a minute and the podcast episode is about my wait. A minute I won't spoil a few,
if you missed it the first time round, but I feel I really should answer the obvious question here should now, which is Malcolm you. Did this big
the sudden brine Williams did he ever reach out, say thanks and the answer is I really thought he would. I mean I get little thank used all the time from the subjects of episodes notes, gifts after I did my episode Mcdonalds.
My heart in season two about how Mcdonald's ruined its fries when it stop cooking of tallow and how beef tell it was. Maybe too
to stick in the whole world. You don't. I got an email, the giant white tub of beef tell so giant, I'm still cooking with it from the coast, packing Company, Vernon, California, and on the label. It says pact, especially for Malcolm Gladwell, with gratitude for your appreciation of natural, healthy
beef tallow. May all your deep frying be golden Brown, Crispy, intelligence, Mcdonald's may a broken my heart, but the coast packing Company, a Vernon California, made it a whole again. My point is we take graft here at revisionist history, happily and willing, so in the weeks and months have followed the episode drop of free born Williams. I checked my inbox every day. If I saw package, my heart would leap, flowers, perhaps a box of Chocolates and NBC Toke bag. If the phone rang- and I didn't recognize a nun
I would think, is this Brian inviting me for lunch in the thirty Rock Commissary. I am still waiting. So just so, you know four.
Brian Williams, winner of the silver metal in the revisionist revisited contest, is an act of unrequited love Brian. If you're out there are, I have to go back and work in season five again coming June. Eighteen, we have Warsaw,
Is a lost Van Gogh, a couple of New grand unified theories, but before I leave you to my things, first
I want to encourage you to sign up for the revision. Is history newsletter at Pushkin DOT Fm? So you can fly
Oh all things, wonderful and revisionist, and second you know it just rolled out of Pushkin headquarters and not a season of against the rules last season MIKE,
Louis roamed, far and wide to bring a stories about the assault on referees and american life. This season he's looking at the rise of coaches.
Season, one of against the rules this season, even better. The story out this week episode to is about his high school baseball coach in New Orleans. I dont want to give anything more away, except to say it is everything that is genius
about Michael Lewis so go check it out. Meanwhile hears free
Brian Williams, honey,
evening of March twenty six. Two thousand and thirteen Rhine Williams appeared on late night with David.
I very happy to have this man? No other sea is the Emmy and if Anybody Award winning Anchor and managing editor of the NBC nightly. Newsletters. Gentlemen, here is our good friend Brian Williams. Mr William Rhine Williams looks like a tv anchor. He has one.
Those rectangular super handsome made for television heads maybe to size is larger than normal, like he inflates it with a bicycle pump before he goes on camera and he's charming. V
returning congratulations? Twenty years, NBC News? Thank you very much. Man tell me, will you
sits down next to Letterman and the two of them chit chat and tell jokes. There had been some big kerfuffle about the today show involving Matt
our and let him and tries and fails to bait Williams, into saying something juicy about Lauer Soft. Now
if I'm onto something blink twice, then let him and asked the question that will destroy brine Williams. Career
tell me if I knew this, I forgot it and if I forgot it, I'm ashamed.
Something happened. Ten years ago in Iraq tell people what that guy. I brought a photo which arrived in my email to mornings ago, of where I was tonight a decade ago. This very day. This very
day. My name is Malcolm global. You.
Thing to revisionist history, my podcast about things forgotten and misunderstood. This episode is part. Two of my
exploration of memory and are naive ideas about what memory is worth
If you haven't heard the previous episode, you should listen to it first,
is the story of an early morning raid on a Nazi hide out in eunuch arrayed that involve a world class harmonica player and a dashing Lee handsome undercover spy. The lesson of that story,
only a fool except the evidence of his own memory is gospel. The lesson of this story is where our food.
This was me ten years ago and a young command sergeant major. I was in Iraq now a couple of caveats here
as war correspondents go. I am the Herbert Mandrake of war correspondents, I'm I'm not too,
We're good at is not what I do full time. I mostly New York based, I do go cover the
two wars we ve been fighting, and when I do I like to go out on patrol I'd like to get out in it right, we worry in some helicopters. We were going to drop
some bridge portions across the Euphrates. So the third
Infantry could cross on them. Two of our
for helicopters were hit
ground fire, including the one I was in no our pitchy and an acre forty seven. What what
as you may remember, the helical
your brain Williams was riding was not in fact hit by ground fire
Williams was miles away in another aircraft entirely when the attack happened. One of the most respected network news anchors went on late night tv to tell a story about his near death experience and it turned out.
Be true. What happens the minute everybody realises you been hit? We figure out how to land safely and we did. We landed very quickly and hard and we put down and we were stuck for birds in the middle of the desert,
and we were north out ahead of the other Americans, all my handlin as it is as a guy as a journalist. What would you think this is a great position to be in a wholly crap? I gotta get out again more towards the holy crowd.
This is what we know for certain about the case of Brian Williams and a helicopter
Our colleague, Brian Williams, is back in Kuwait City tonight, after a close call on those guys over Iraq. Rand tell us about you got yourself into
I am, I am Tom if they give us a glimpse just after the? U S, invasion of Iraq began in the spring of two thousand and three Williams Father report for NBC News from the field:
he described, how he'd been in bed with a convoy of four Chinook helicopters flying out of Kuwait City? They were carrying bridge component,
so that the? U S, army troops, could cross the Euphrates. This is Williams, reporting March twenty six, two thousand
on the ground. We learned the Chinook ahead of us was almost blown out of the sky. That whole was made by a rocket propelled grenade or r p e g, as Williams describes it all for helicopters ended up on the desert floor.
There was a massive sandstorm. They were trapped there for three harrowing day
the main invading force
still miles away what
didn't know was we were north of the invasion
we were. The northernmost Americans in Iraq, Williams is account, is included,
the book published by NBC shortly after four years later. He tells it again in a blog post, written after the death of her attire general, who was in the helicopter with him. Only this time Williams uses a vague sense. There was small arms fire in a later blog posts in two thousand and eight he's more explicit. All four of our low flying Chinook took fire. We were forced down and stay down
then let him in two thousand and thirteen brine Williams, fateful appearance. So we got hit. We sat down. Every one was ok, our captain took a purple hard injury to his ear in the cockpit
but we were alone. They started distributing weapons. We
heard a noise and it was Bradley fighting vehicles and Abrams tanks coming. They happened to spot us
This was the invasion, got a? U S, innovation. They saw us suddenly a story that
It has been telling in bits and pieces gets told in the spotlight of late night tv and who sees it Lance around
the flight engineer on the helicopter. The got hit Reynolds responds on NBC. Facebook. Page sorry, do
I don't remember you being on my aircraft. I do remember you walking up about an hour after
It landed to ask me what happened one by one. The members of the flight crews involved come forward to say the same thing and then the scandal
tell me do you know where Brian Williams was at the moment the Europe
A copper was hit by the army, gee, that's Brien's Delta of CNN,
viewing Don Ellis, the pilot, the lead helicopter,
At a lot going on, but I am pretty sure he was not in our fly at all then still through talks to the power of the helicopter. That Williams was on his names,
Alan Kelly is right to say that by was aboard your helicopter and not
or the helicopter there was shot in Iraq that day, that's correct
He was aboard my aircraft that day in March. What was your
aircraft doing and was it ever within sight of the tuna there was shot out as far as the Chinook from big we need that was shot down. We were now
within visual range them. So what sort of distance was
between your helicopter with brainwaves aboard and the helicopter that did take.
Fire, so initial we're probably a half hour behind them soon, every pundits
The sun is wagging a disdainful finger whose Don Imus
and why do you think not remember whether or not you in a plane that gets hit
can, you not remember, remember, get punished in the face and fourth grade.
C, o Donnell? I think you wouldn't
you weren't a helicopter that was actually hit by a missile, so I dont think team.
Remember that I think he fabricated that story. John Stewart. We got case here of confusion
syndrome. It occurs when the celebrity cortex gets its wires crossed redeem,
Ankara dollar even would be Goldberg when he tell the story
all the story, as happened every.
I'm told it again. It got more exciting he always wore. This was more that an
Tom? He was when he was
Oh god, damn I'm sorry, you know
stolen, valor. You can get a ray of sorts. If you impersonator soldier, say you're in Combat Earl, you can actually get arrested and charge and put in jail for doing just what he did or now he's reprehensible is disgusting. Enlightened is lying. Coward he's been telling the story for twelve years city repeatedly. This goes on from months and b C suspends him
six months without pay, culminating with a public penance on the today, Show Matt Lauer in the interviewer seat. What have these past five months been like?
it has been torture now. Maybe you don't care about Brine Williams, a lot
what's happened since the scandal he currently has a nightly show on MSNBC at eleven Eastern he's going to be fine in the grand scheme of things. What does it matter? Well, it matters because of what the case exposes about
understanding of memory, Brian Williams remembered a traumatic event. One way, then, a couple of years later,
he started remembering that same event, a different way and the assumption
virtually everyone who waited on the case was this: if someone changes their original story, then they must be lying, but the change must be deliberate and self aggrandizing. Everyone assumes
Ray is a kind of time stamped video of what happened in your life and that, if you contradict the evidence of the video Europe to no good, I'm sorry, but that's insane free brine Williams,.
I back with more cared about president.
Marketing officer for eighteen teeth, business, which talking about five g, what it is, what it means and in this.
Segment, going to focus on one of the most crucial concepts in the five key revolution. What is latency as you use that word
as of whether your babblings,
on bees in your favorite game to save the world or you're doing robotic surgery. Latency matters
see how quickly the network responds to a command. So
I trigger a hey. I listen to revisionist history that takes about a hundred two hundred fifty milliseconds, because the copy
revisionist history sitting on some compute, that's hundreds or thousands of miles away from me with five g that latency gets to below ten milliseconds, so one tenth or more better
in one way to think about that is your brain processes reality at about eight milliseconds, so the network getting as fast as your brain is processing Ray
it will appear, instantaneous, truly instantaneous. What are they
areas where eighteen t has been doing a lot of work is hospitals. If to network can reactors,
asked as your brain. Then people would-
have to be in the same room to work together. That's the latency tipping point:
when man and machine can work together instantaneously. So am I
how that could help bring about, say, robotic surgery, so you get Layton
two under ten milliseconds and a dispersed five g network. Now, if the best
heart surgeon is in New York in your and allay using.
they can literally perform the surgery on you and it's?
that could arise the consequence of these low
Super low latency, when the when the
automated system is essentially acting instantaneously as fast as thought
ass? This then, all of a sudden, the job of doing something remotely becomes trivial,
no longer you no longer dealing with that delay. Exactly.
I want to ask you a series of questions about the morning of September eleven, two thousand and one I'm talking with my friend Didi Gordon. I have known her forever. How did you first learn
the attack on the towers, I had just taken my dogs out for a walk, and I had bought the near post, the New York Times and remember pairs.
And was on the cover than your post. I think, and am I what
and I took my walk around the block and I came up to my apartment and I was like sitting at my counter reading the newspapers- and I saw all these people standing out on Hudson Street, staring up.
In the Middle street, and so I poked my head, had out the window
couldn't really see what was going on and then I,
turned on the television
and saw what was happening. What did you do.
Next I went up and either college where I went up to your apartment. I can't remember was one of the. It was one of two things either. I think I called you, I think it is Europe Centres
Did he Gordon I used to live in the same building in the West Village above a bodega? Whenever she came up to see me, she
sing the theme song from the sick threes company common, not
No, don't wait. You called
before you went on street or ask you in the street. I called you before. Did I and did I picked up? You did and as I do need to look at your window and you did
turn on the news. Did you see me that morning or did you leave before I came now now? Where are we?
And you are like Y Gotta- go fly someplace today,
and I remember I said to you- I go what and when out of the airports are closed near like oh well, I guess I'll leave tomorrow morning and I said all like you're going to get
playing like. I thought you were crazy and new said Gordon. This is the safest time to fly, to remember that
you know who's. Your memory for this stuff is kind of phenomenal house.
And are you about all of those members? You just told me
How certain am I
pretty certain. Now, let me ask you the same questions. I was just asking daddy. How did you first learn about what happened on nine eleven? Where were you? What were you doing? How did you feel when you first became aware the attack, who is
first person, you talked about the attack. What were you doing immediately before he became aware of it? I'm gonna to that many of you
an answer every one of those questions, maybe not with the same specificities, daddy.
Because she has an amazing memory, but you
tell me where you were when you heard the news I was in bed, did he called me. I went down to Hudson Street and stood in the crowd watching a twin towers burn. Then I went down to a little coffee shop around the corner from my house.
And sat there with a cup of tea in NAM, silence nine eleven is, what's called a flash bob event. A big dramatic incident that Sears itself into our memories and as a whole, sub specialty in psychology devoted
the study of flashbulb memories. You ask someone where they were right after something dramatic or historic happened. Then you come back to the months or years later and asked them again and measure how accurate their memories are. There have been countless studies like this over the years when was done after the death of princess die another after the resignation of Margaret Thatcher, the challenger explosion, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the election of Barack Obama, the Oj Simpson
Not surprisingly, there was one done after nine eleven as well, so nine eleven happened and I got together with
a former sooner mine and why you lose Phelps deny Levin project was headed by Bill Hearst from the new school and Liz Phelps at New York University. I went to see Hearst and he told me that he in Phelps had come up with the idea of a dinner on September, twelve in a restaurant, close enough to the towers that you could smell us.
Her says that he in Phelps realize they could do the mother of all flash pop studies, so the next day they reached out to colleagues around the country, Boston, Newhaven, New York, washing DC saint Louis Palo, Alto and Santa Cruz. A total of three thousand two hundred and forty six subjects asked the same questions. I just asked you: where were you who you with? How did you feel the participants were ass, these same questions a year later and two years later and finally, on the tenth anniversary of the attack,
in twenty eleven. So what did the researchers find? Well, first, that everyone knows where they were when they heard the towers fell. Just like me, indeedy it burned into memory, but are those memories and accurate nother, not
especially in the first year after a flash bob event, all kinds of discrepancies creeping one of them.
Bond. Its first said she was in the kitchen making breakfast when she heard about the attack a year later,
she swore she was in the laundry room, folding clothes. Another said in two thousand and one that she said,
the attack, while watching the today show a year later, she was convinced that a girl in her dormant rushed into her room and told her
So when do you look at these kinds of
accuracy is inconsistency that creep into how
urges the variability among the subjects
Do we have
some who get everything wrong in retrospect and sound out every right. No, I
say that the very is fairly small. Some people get everything right. Some people get more wrong, but it's not a huge variability hearst fines on average
Sixty percent decline in memory, consistency, meaning sixty percent of the answers changed over time. You would
that everything about nine eleven would be seared into our minds, one of the most dramatic days of our generation. But everything is not second thing.
More crucial? Are we aware that our memories of nine eleven are flawed? No one on our confidence
in the accuracy of memories of that day, is sky high there super high and why
what weight means me so dumb question be locked me through. Why are they so high
her says. Nine eleven is like a death in the family. We feel we have a responsibility to remember,
If you had only vague memories of where you were when you found out your mother died. Well, I would think like what
the person- I you. How could you not remember that our new
workers, conference levels, higher forget everybody's consummated levels so high. So it's hard to differentiate, began to yeah, we're all absolutely sure about what happened to us on nine eleven. My friend Didi can talk about that morning, just as if it were yesterday- and I will say
They are on a stack of bibles that she called me on the phone and then I ran downstairs and then eventually
upsetting numb and alone in a coffee shop, and yet it is almost certainly the case that we are wrong on at least half of those details. It did not happen that way. Her says that the participants in Flash Bob studies refer.
Is to accept this fact. They will not admit that their memories are wrong. Take the flash Bob study done after the explosion.
The challenge of space shuttle indicted eighty six, the psychology
in charge, sat down with people months later and showed them how differently they describe things right after the disaster. He showed them what they actually wrote
He says it's. Is it there handwriting?
They say yes, but I don't know why I wrote that because it's wrong
You know, I agree, my handwriting. I agree. I must have written that, but
don't know why I like, because I clearly remember it. I was in the dorm, even though this piece of paper says I was in the cafeteria, so this
overwhelming confidence that people have.
Now. Why are we so adamant on the subject of memory? Because we're
We think our memory is a camera recording our life in real time, with a video time stamped and stored for later retrieval, let's not like memory,
when you remember something you retrieving it and it remains absolutely stable and then you put it in the footlights of your consciousness is
is more that it when you
private is opened up to the past. Him
the change. Every time we were treated
memory, in other words, there's a chance he can get contaminated. We hear some new detail somewhere about the event and without realizing it we just added in memory. Researchers talk a lot about what they call time. Slice
airs. A couple of things happen in the same general timeframe and we get the sequence all jumbled up
did he says she and I talked in person that morning of nine eleven I have no recollection of it, but she does. I must positively spoke inside the apartment
and then I really said I was getting on a plane in extent.
And you are like kind of cocky about it to your leg, you can look at me like court in stopping so neurotic
In your I don't you know, this is the safest timed again on an airplane. Is when something like this happen to you. I can be really quick lesson turns out. It's my favorite thing about you. I decided to do a little fat checking. I still have my date books from two thousand and one I'm pretty meticulous about keeping track of my travel and I did not have an airplane trip planned for September. Twelve now, maybe a mistaken, maybe did he's right, but according to my records, I flew the Montreal unsafe temper nineteenth eight days later. I think our
information about flights must have been right before that trip, because why would I say it's the safest time to fly on the morning of nine eleven? That's something I would only say after the airports should reopened with much tighter security. I think getting me the time times.
At some point, she mistakenly moved that memory to the morning of nine eleven, because it seems plausible that we would have talked about planes that morning now
does that make Didier liar issue.
Working some self promoting angle. Did he is one of those
people have ever met. She simply
what human beings do when it comes to.
there is our memory and there is a truth and the two are not the same okay. So what? If it's, not nine hundred and eleven? What if it's a couple years later at the very beginning of the Iraq war? What if I'm in a convoy of helicopters, deep in enemy territory, scared out of my wits
and the helicopter ahead of me gets hit and I'm a reporter, and I interviewed lots of people that day about what happened and we the story so many times that their details become my details, and I start to think that it was my helicopters
when I read your paper, the first
Personal kinda minded sprang Williams. Yes, yes, didn't eat is committed
incredibly normal human. Yes, that was my view
and was a view of most of the people in the memory feel that I know you
of the mind that
he genuinely believed the story, as he told it. Yes,
now do you see Brine Williams predicament? Everyone thinks he's lying in order to paint himself as some heroic war correspondent, but he doesn't think he's lying
he honestly believes he was in the lead helicopter with the same confidence we all have in our Flash Bob Memories didn't
remembers. Plane is day that I was catching a flight. On September, twelve people in Flash Bob studies look at their own hands.
Writing from years earlier and say that can't be right. That's not
I remember it. Anne
Thursday. Nbc news announced that brine Williams, twenty two, your veteran of this network, would not
Returning is the anchor of NBC Nightly news. He steps down.
Brian Williams. Does his penance on the today show in MID two thousand and thirteen he in math
our go around and around in circles, item
the story correctly for years before I told it incorrectly,
I was not trying to mislead people. That, to me is a huge difference here, but Matt Lauer is having none of it,
I worry that you say this Brian, the people who are going to have listened to your apology on air and in other areas, Facebook and Stars and stripes, who heard you use words like conflated aircraft.
Or made mistakes. With my memory of certain
things are now going to hear what you're saying now and they're gonna say he still saying he didn't intend to mislead people, and yet he didn't tell the truth, and he had to know is the guy who lived through those experiences that it wasn't the truth he had to know as the guy who lived through those experiences that it wasn't the truth. No, that's a hundred percent wrong. What should Matt lower have said he should have said
Brian memory is fallible Europe, public figure, for goodness sake. The next time you go on national tv to tell a war story, go back and check to see if your story is accurate, but Lauer doesn't say that the today Show interview was.
Is tough minded, uncompromising journalism. It was actually the opposite. An interrogation about,
Marie conducted by someone who hasn't the slightest clue how memories work and
his brain William supposed to do here is no defence. All I can do is debase himself
I understand it?
this came from clearly a bad place, a bad urge inside me, this
was clearly ego. Drift
The desire to better my role,
story I was already in
That's what I've been tearing apart and unpacking. This comes from clearly a bad place once again
wrong. It comes from the most human of places, a mat Lauer, Matt Lauer, for Heaven's sake, puts on the high had several
after you told the story on nightly news. You went on the air and you apologized, and I just said you use terms:
Like I mistaken, I was mistaken in my recollections. Did you give thought at the time
two going on the air and saying I lied not lower by the way had an entire staff whose job it was to prepare him for interviews this research on memory is not a secret
first, is it the new school on Fourteenth Street and Fifth Avenue in Manhattan, Hearst CO, author list, Phelps, is an end. Why you down the street from Rockefeller Centre. Whether today show is taped to of the world's leading experts on memory are for subway stops away on the beer de trains or a nice day. Lauer could have walked in
How hard is this not to put words in your mouth, but had you gone on the air that night and save folks, I lied and I'm sorry do you think the outcome would have been different. You think forgiveness would have come soon, except he didn't lie.
Lying in this instance, would be Brine Williams, pretending that he deliberately made up that story so mad.
Our is saying that
rather Williams had lied and confessed that he'd lied rather than having told the truth that he honesty thought he was telling the truth. The council of Cardinals could not make sense of the moral logic of that
with more Canada, we're talking about five g, the next great
you know, revolution the revolution beyond the fun today- an ambulance pulls up to the hospital and you ve got a hand off data to the medical professionals and
the hospital with five g, you can imagine that becomes an automated processing.
Which also helps patient lives. It's more vision.
And your handing off the data more precisely. It's a beautiful thing
and then more long term becomes. How do we think through
training doctors to become better surgeons faster in the
future using augmented reality. You can literally watch the best surgeons on earth, perform, search,
free and learn as if it's you doing it
with augmented reality you can overlay the scan of the past
and if you will see you never have to look away from them. A can help guide you on. The next thing you need to do is part of your surgery.
He would no longer have to be in the room as you train them you could.
Access to a wide number of people who are giving you advice because they get all watch through your eyes. You ain't exactly by the way
it's worth noting that the whole Brian, William Saga, is a case study in memory. Failure. Cnn sprains delta, in of use Don hell us the pilot, the helicopter, the got shot down. He asked us
when he first heard brine Williams, Miss characterizing what happened and Hella says. Oh a few weeks later, when I got back to Kuwait, meaning in two thousand and three, this is this is
crucial mister Hale us because, according to the time line that we ve been looking out for the past several days, it wasn't until about two thousand seven the-
I will began to embellish this story about being actually
nearby or even on the chopper. There was struck by the hour Fiji seriously.
You heard it on television in two thousand three.
To saying I heard on the internet that was an interview
over internet video of the television segment, yet still too is way too nice to say it, but Hell us can't be right. His recollection is off by four years, and does he realized how badly he's miss remembered? The dates? No he's adamant. Then another man comes forward. The pilot of Williams, helicopter and claims they did take small arms fire goes on CNN. Add some gossipy details then, a day later, the pilot takes it. All back quote the information I gave. You was true based on my memories, but at this point I am questioning my
memories, which might be the first self aware thing said by anyone doing his whole sorry affair. In the brine Williams case every
and was allowed to have a bad memory except brine Williams?
such a hard fight him, but I do think it is
he was treated very unfairly was, I think, absolutely
I'm waiting to see the formation of cartels
I'll for rightly says that a lobby group
thinking of doing it. I got so sorry for him
thanks for doing this rose. Thank you for joining us running and thank you everybody for coming here. Not long ago after the Harvey Weinstein's scandal broke, I went to a talk in Manhattan,
at the ninety second street why it was a conversation between rose Mc Gowan, who was the first actress to go on the record, with accusations against Weinstein's and run and fairer, who wrote the definitive devastating account of the wine steam case for the New Yorker magazine? It was a fascinating and sometimes strange evening. Mc Gowan speaks in a kind of elliptical. Poetry is not always obvious what she means. Pharaoh was a lawyer before he turned journalism, his rigorous I- and so I asked me if he were an US who would you be it? Would you be rehearse curtains? Island Vienna curtain
You're, not the member and the girl, you are the court, I am the curtain. The cartons very pretty carton gets used. Kicked aside, nobody really noticed this occurred in their appreciative that it's their package coinciding stuff, but it absorbs everything from
aside from this side, presentation away like so great to right. This is the curtain that you see from the backside. You see everything to, but nobody knows this occurred, the curtains taking notes mccrone as someone who requires an interpreter- and there was one moment that really struck me when Pharaoh talked about what being an interpreter meant, he was trying to get people at a b c where he worked at that
I to take Mcgowan's accusation seriously. I spent a year listening to a lot of powerful men. Call these women who
we're relating the worst experiences of a lifetime, crazy call them on state
call them unreliable, narrators and a lot worse things that I will repeat on this stage. You know that was something that was lobbed. Add your story countless times I sat and rooms and defend
The fact that, on the record, testimony from you matter and what you see
like I can we a few minutes later. The two of them start talking about what it takes for a story like Mcgowan's to break through all the scepticism and indeed
for I think, when women come forward individually and they do a blog posts or social media post until their story? That's great. The question is its then incumbent on
orders to do right by that, and the best way to do justice, I think to any person coming forward with a difficult story, is to interrogate it as thoroughly as possible and in a land cretin. Where is one of the battle cries of the fight against sexual predation has been believed the women but notice. That's not what Pharaoh is saying he did. He says the best way to do justice to any person coming forward with a difficult story is too interrogated as thoroughly as possible and lend credence where its due Pharaoh didn't believe, rose. Mc Gowan Pharaoh listened too rose Mcgowan. He took her seriously. That's what memory demands would it froze Mc Gowan had said it
he'd been assaulted by wine, sting in a hotel room in Paris and it turned out to have been in London and she said it had happened in March and it turned out to be July. Can you imagine her on today show twisting and turning as she tries to defend that lapse in memory to Matt Lauer use?
you were in Paris your miles away in London? You had to know
was the woman who lived through those experiences that it wasn't the truth.
But remembering yourself in one place, when you are actually in another, does
I mean that your lying. It just means that uncovering the truth,
Fires and understanding of what memory can and cannot do if we don't get the small cases right, the Brian Williams cases we're going to be helpless. The big cases looking back it had do have been ego that made me think I had to be sharper funnier quicker
Then anybody else put myself closer to the action
having been at the action in the beginning. Oh, please
top apologizing for a crime. You didn't commit free, prying, William,
the senior producer his meal about with Jacob Smith and Camille Baptista, are editor
is Julia. Barton flown Williams is our engineer fact checking by Beth Johns
original music, but we scared special thanks to any Bowers and Jake Voice, but I'm out
So what interesting is so? I'm sure you called me
and you're sure you called me
Is it only I'm almost a hundred percent positive? I called you- and I am I am too
There is a chance that you didn't call me. There is a chance, because I know I called you
I know you called me do it. I know it
It couldn't be hard to deal with its like there's a chance. You didn't. Let me there's a chance, you not to my door. You now
but I thinking about, did I really knock on his door, because I respect your privacy as he respected mine and I would have never just want, went up to knock on your door just in case that you have like a lady up. There are something so in respect for that. I would have probably called you first, just not even if ye
even if like the twin towers, are smoking on you. I would have now worked upstairs to interrupt your your intimate moment with a lady friend. Even if the
twin towers were on fire, but please Zippo conclude that in your broadcast,
was here: I'm back
With against the rules
last season. I talk about the attack on referees and the idea of fairness ran. This season is all about the rise of coaches in american life.
What are you doing?
that long ago, that we only had coaches in sports Siberia, lazy and work for your picture? I'm gonna? Kick your ass got it now. Coaches are everywhere, shut up yourself, I'll give you a puzzle.
Emily their people who call themselves life, coaches and others.
Well who call themselves death coaches as saying glitches is therefore, and catching is the passive laughed laughter
You can hire a coach to improve your executive skills,
your online dating performance and even your charisma. I am here to guide you and making sure you grow as a person,
but the rise of coaching is connected to unfairness. The riches best performing people in the world have the most coaching back. I would never have done to Yale, but this guy, who got all this
king did get into Yale. It just seems like anyone who can answer these questions has got to be coach. Goose coaching overdrive, coaching just end up making the rhetoric
Gatt join me for season. Two of against the rules from Pushkin industry is, I might even get.
Coaching myself so Michael, if you had somebody wants to be killed.
Over that, be I'm not telling released yet
against. The rules is back. May fifth, so
DR wherever you get your podcast.
Transcript generated on 2020-05-14.