« Revisionist History

The Obscure Virus Club


Throughout the 1960s, a biologist named Howard Temin became convinced that something wasn’t right in science’s understanding of viruses. His colleagues dismissed him as a heretic. He turned out to be right — and you're alive today as a result.  Season Four ends with a bedtime story about how we should be freed by our doubts, not imprisoned by them.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Reception revisionist history is brought to by eighteen teeth business and of having a conversation with eighty anti business. President chief marketing officer mode about about the coming five g revolution. We started the conversation to episodes ago and in episode, I hijacked the conversation and make more talk about my personal obsession with people who think about medicine. People give anyone who thinks about sport, we do. We have an entire team who thinks about venue experiences. No two words have lifted my heart, quite like venue experiences we'll be back with no in a little bit and now examine episode. Ten avaricious history.
In the second half of the twentieth century, a group of scientists became obsessed with an obscure family of viruses. They weren't many people in the obscure virus club. They all knew each other in the rest of the world rolled his eyes at them. Read the letter ok, dear Bob, I regret that your paper on the t, sell retrovirus is not acceptable, for publication in the Journal of Iraqi exhibit a the archives of the obscure virus club, our rejection letter, I completely agree with reviewer number one. There is little point in perpetuating this controversy about the procedure.
Viral nature of this material? Not. Thank you very much. This is fascinating, but you're not quite there. Yet just no. I hope you understand. We can only accept definitive date To resolve this question therefore, have no alternative, but to reject this paper outright and advice. As we cannot consider the present manuscript in any form in any form If you are in the obscure virus club, you got this alot, it didn't stop them. Thank God, money Malcolm Gladwell, your listing to revisionist history, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This is the final
pursuit of season for a season of Jesuits and lawyers and gangsters and disputations musicians, iconoclasts sceptics, want to finish with the story of the obscure virus club, maybe the biggest band iconoclasts of all. This is a bedtime story for this season in its history and as with any story, you have to wait to the very end. To understand what it's all about. The obscure virus club had adjunct members honorary members hangers on, but I want to focus on the three people at its core Ludovic Gross Howard Timmins. Robert Gala Bob Gallo he's the only one still alive, eighty two years old, still at the office every day. He is pictures of his old compatriots on his walls, I think he sent to me
now there is life here is just an unforgettable character, but that that catches- you know first Ludovic Gross- had of cancer research for the Veterans Administration in the Bronx Gallo remembers asking him whether he wanted to get rich gross, told him. No, he had everything he needed and he counted it off. First, he had his car escape Poland in his car after the Nazis invaded he drove when it came to see me at an age. Dropped from New York is, first, experiments were in the back seat, trunk fiscal space number two I have my television, I can see. Pyramids was privation adding there were three I and my work, and there were four and my wife that that's love. That's the Crows
at scientific meetings in the nineteen fifties. People wouldn't sit next to look the gross. Everyone thought he was crazy. Next came the ringleader of the obscure virus Club Howard tension. Remarkable Howard ten in a really wiki the. Until I can do it right now. The young gets all conscious Where were the controls? You don't have any damn controls then you're, making too, when it rains with the hair, like you, the same hairdo Howard, timid, Ludovic, Gross Robert Gala, and what They have in common with me, wasn't commonly you got fist on fetish. We all had our I would say three scientists shunned by their peers. That was the price of admission to the obscure virus club,
in nineteen eleven, a young physician named Francis Peyton round set up a cancer research Laboratory New York, What is now Rockefeller University, a woman came to see rouse, she had a poultry farms just outside the city and she brought with her a hen with a large lump on its chest. The lump was cancer, a sarcoma that is a tumor, of the connective tissue. We dont know why a cancer doktor would be curious about a dying chicken, but he was roused. Remove the tumor ground it up Stick would say, line solution and injected the solution into healthy chickens and what happened to healthy chickens develop the same tumors. Thus was perplexed. Cancer is not supposed to be. A communicable disease is caused by a malfunction of genetic machinery inside a cell, it can't be passed from one person.
Into another like the flu, but this is exactly what seem to be happening. The chickens tumor roused concluded had two because by a virus, people didn't believe him. They said. Well, maybe that tumor Really cancer, or so what this is just some weird thing that happens with chickens Roscoe discouraged he stopped working on viruses entirely years later this same problem, whether cancer could spread like a virus came to obsess Ludovic. Rose. You work with mice. Sometimes mice came down with leukemia marine leukemia, which is a lot like human leukemia grosbeak mice to show how the disease was communicated from one generation to the next. He became convinced that the leukemia was caused by a virus passed from mother to offspring, but the same thing happened: other scientists,
didn't believe him. He was a strange emigre in the Bronx imagining cancer causing viruses in mice. Why couldn't that just be a set of faulty gene being passed down. He proved it was Arnold, Zis, arrogant, Are you in his cage user? Filthy. Technology whatsoever did not really what he's doing. It was that my bed more completely, essentially virtually a strike. Gross. Finally won the last grow, one of the most prestigious prizes in medicine. In one seventy four when he was seventy in the secure virus club. You often had to wait your entire career for validation after gross comes Howard, timid, the remarkable Howard in time and was the second of three sons of a lawyer and an activist from Philadelphia? The biologists David Baltimore mid term and when they were both part of the student summer programme at the Jackson,
praetorian made if you had a question or was a lecture. You understand something you ve gotta Jordan Howard knew everything he was an amazing intellect, and so I spent this in a sense. As his student he was famous, Swarthmore, actually because they said he had read of book in the library and they had to buy more for him Emily. I was the only one to notice that there was something very special about this, the kind of person he was TIM and donated his permits for money to a refugee camp years later, when visited the Soviet Union, he smuggled in Hebrew, prayer books, I met TIM and once when I was a cod rapporteur for the washed post. I happened to be in Medicine Wisconsin at the university Wisconsin, where he taught his whole career, I went to see him. I don't remember the specifics of what he talked about and I've lost my notes,
What I remember with absolute clarity is a feeling I have After leaving his office, which is had never met someone so completely in command of his own thinking I've only ever gotten a sense of command of mastery from watching great athletes. Never. Biologists was squeaky voices His wife Rayless says that when Timmins first got to a constant he would it in on seminars and other departments, and as soon as he got here, he drew attention of people because he would sit up in the front and then he would ask the most pointed brilliant important questions of the speaker. So everyone said well. Who was he? Who is he? But once you met powered term in you remembered how retirement one of his former graduate students. Sandy Weller says she could barely keep up with him. They wrote his back to work every day. He took me never to
the elevator eve he had to go to the ninth floor. He walked nine floors and several times he made me do that with justice I would do that with him. If we're going up to the seminar on the ninth floor term and could done anything walked into, the field in science and left his mark. Became obsessed by the chicken tumor that Peyton Rouse had discovered fifty years earlier, now known as rouse sarcoma virus, and so when I was in stood in doing was on this we have a virus causes cancer? That's too when in an oral history taken a few years before his death in the nineteen fifties, you could not have picked. A more obscure object to study than a cancer virus. People were so avoiding led the grocer conferences the universe Wisconsin. Had a viral GI position opened their cancer Institute no one wanted. It uses
when you came to his class and that the virology position had been offered to several people and they haven't been interested. How come these people had turned on position? Viruses at that time were knocked him. Very important needs in cancer research. They had always been assigned show for cancer research. His first officer Wisconsin was in the basement, next to the sum pump and my office was in in one Bennett Transfer room a little isolated room about the size of just. You're sitting a couple of square feet, but none of that mattered, timid was hooked. Ro sarcoma was a weird in puzzle. He began to notice all kinds of anomalies. For example, some I'm the virus would mutate. It would take honesty. Change new shape and then afterwards the sell it infected.
Take on the same strange shape as if the virus were just occupying the sell it infected the way say a flu virus. Does the flu just sits inside yourselves, multiplying, Until your immune system drives it out, the flu is a squatter. Rough sarcoma seemed like it was conquering the cells. It was infecting inserting its own, netteke information into the dna of its host, how it did that made no sense. At the time the field of genetics had something scientist called the central dogma. The central dogma held it. Genetic information only moved in one direction. Dna gave instructions to RNA which then use those instructions to make proteins. Dna to RNA
Ro Sarcoma was in rna virus. According to the central dogma, then it was impossible for it to insert is genetic information into the dna of the cells. It was infecting RNA, didn't move in that direction. We know the basic lifestyle most fires, but now the cancer dissing viruses stood out as different, then in hard to understand David Baltimore again. What was different and hard to understand about? Well that fundamental thing was that they had RNA as their genome, and yet they were Well, to establish a permanent peace inside the cell and run the so so he turned from enormous harder to Kansas, and so here was behaving like dna here it was an ordinary hers and that didn't makes its coward, had been driven by that question for ten years previously,
David Baltimore watched his old friend Howard TIM and stand up at conferences and try to convince everyone. To take this weird anomaly seriously. Why did it question assume such importance for him, because was thinking twenty four hours a day about these viruses, as he obsessed over the puzzle of sarcoma ten and decided, it could only mean one thing. The central dogma must be wrong. One of the fundamental facts about human genetics taught in every science textbook and every science classroom in the world had to be in air. There must be a class of viruses, like rose sarcoma virus that could somehow work backwards from RNA to DNA. It was as if he said,
ass. The earth rotates around the sun in an anti clockwise manner, but the only explanation what I'm seeing with rouse is that on occasion the earth must stop and go clockwise, and then he spent about ten years at inertia. Cancer trying to find an experiment. They would convince anybody else, and he couldn't TIM and had an intuition. A hunch button oh, and was going to overturn the central dogma, because some guy from Wisconsin had a hunch. It wasn't right. I'm talking to most cat about President chief marketing officer of eighteen business, about two feisty resolution. I made him talk about the implications for my favorite activity. Watch
sports and to use those two tantalizing words venue experience. Tell me more about the venue through okay, so exam pull five you coming to life in a venue is, you can do boy, literally hundreds of cameras around the venue and soon was a fan. When you go in five g enabled because of the capacity in the latency, you can process the video coming off of those cameras locally inside the venue, local cloud instance, and then you can give them and the ability to choose what at which angle they want to watch from, which is really cool and an. I love music and so for me, I'm excited about being able to go to a concert inside of any and I want to watch from the legal tourists you know written so allowing yeah yeah. Or because latency is essentially instantaneous. It wouldn't be like you you're you're. You can watch it in real time. From whenever perspective, you want exactly Zambia
the matter where you're sitting. So as long as you have five g coverage broadly, saleable across the entire venue. You can be in the sweet you can be in the club can be, Does he have the emotional experience of being in the arena, which is what Why does but also the actually of watching it from your own perspective, which Colonia Miramonte be duplicated, it helped develop. If you don't get to choose your angle to know it's better than science is a social process. People within a field are in constant contact. The show notes the gossip To compete for the brightest graduate students for grant money for prizes when you say something that the group doesn't believe, you pay a price
and with every year that passes with you saying one thing and the group saying another: the price gets higher. First of all, people fighting was crazy, mean even prove his theory for six years after using it Timmins form a graduate student Sandy Weller and that six years was a very difficult period for all of his students and for him he was a prior. They thought his students were nuts for working with him. I one point: Howard Tenant wrote Francis Crick, Sir Francis Crick Nobel Prize winner of Watson and click, the co discoverers of DNA, the authors of the sun, a dogma itself, turnin rights, Quick, a letter gently suggesting that an amendment to the central dogma might be an order. Crick rights back very kind
sending arrogant letter. Well, I'm sure you think this is true, but you must realize you're wrong and to talk like that to Howard with terrific that's jets at most, people would have given up, but he doesn't because he's how attention at the word that it comes to mind is righteous, which has a negative towns. When I don't mean to be negative. This is too starter Miriam, but he had a strong moral compass, and that was incredibly incredibly competent. Person was blessed with that, and so was not shy about speaking his mind and where do you think the what was the source of his confidence? That's right. I have my uncle Michael them in the south of his stick with it. This wise and his answer Well, he knew he was right and then one day and nineteen seventy. He came to his wife rail, a full of excitement he was going. To be away. Honor
over three, which was made twenty seventh and he was explaining why he had to leave and that we would celebrate later. I said: well, that's fine, that's fine, and he said then. Actually he had something that was a bombshell that he was going to announce that the meeting, but he couldn't tell me what it was. She said. Let me guess you found it he nodded after years of trying term and had located the part of the virus that enabled it to work backwards and by an incredible stroke, his old friend, David Baltimore, had found it to buy then Baltimore and fashioned his own equally brilliant career. At almost exactly the same moment, the two old friends independently discover a little enzyme
king in a distant corner of this strange class of rna viruses, an interpreter something it speaks RNA and can translate into DNA so that the virus had a mechanism for inserting its own genetic information into the cells it infected timmins. Finds the enzyme in roused sarcoma virus Baltimore went looking for it in mouse, leukemia virus, the same virus that at hunted led gross, timid and Baltimore call it reverse transcript tastes, and the class of viruses that had obsessed them all for so long now had a name retroviruses, because by virtue of their onboard translator, they had the ability to work in reverse. How hard was it to find this particular ends? I mean is a trivial. Oh really, it's really enjoyed a notion of two days or experiments two days. So
The idea of knowing look and what to look for and what to look for right, you have to design very specifically design your search. That it will show up this ends at right. If you dont looking exact, the right way? You're not gonna spot it right just like that. The great puzzle was resolved and I got to the point where I knew that the ins and was in the virus particle. The first thing I did was to call our and say I want to tell you about this. We did he. How did he respond? He should respond by say we're doing those experiments, democracy, nineteen, seventy Baltimore and TIM and jointly Russia famous series of papers in the prestigious journal nature five years late they were awarded the Nobel Prize, along with their old teacher, we're not o Dell Bacco
when trades in his two first class tickets to Sweden for coach seats, so we could take a look. Two daughters highway, seven when he got the Nobel Prize and one things I remember that his ants were too long and they are suitable bunched around the bottom of his talks at the sermon. Yes, did you go to the sermon? Yes, are you Guess I kind of remember meaning the king and I definitely remember a a very, very fancy in this enormous. Why the staircase, where the laureates came down and their spouses, all paired with somebody else of my father, had a, I believe, a danish princess on her arm. If I remember correctly, in along pink dress. I remember that and my mother was desperate by some lesser prince person. And the waiter kids? You know all this procession with the most beautiful food. It was seventy fifth
anniversary of the Nobel Prize, so all previous laureates were invited. There was a huge banquet in the Golden Hall by tradition. One representative from each set of new laureates was allowed to speak. Timid was chosen. He stood up with his baggy tuxedo trousers and his squeaky voice, and he went up to the microphone and frightened these twelve hundred people and thank them for we very much for the prize. You have given us for cancer research, his wife real. I was sitting in the audience with their daughters, and then Timmins said here we are
being rewarded for our work and understanding cancer and you're all smoking. The king was smoking. The queen was smoking, everybody there was smoking, so they were just a guess that he would get up and say tat in front of all the royal take. Did he put out their cigarettes yeah? I think many of them did cause. I was down in the floor and the table I was sitting next to the Prince of Denmark was my partner that night and I looked, and eight people just looked shocked when he said it by the look on the faces, and then they they stubbed out the cigarettes. The story of the obscure virus club could end here. Baltimore. In turn in getting their metals from the king of Sweden, then ten and calling out the whole crew for their hypocrisy, happy ending but there's a whole other chapters
come on. Canada and I have been talking for the past three episodes about five g. What did it and what it means so the sum he's gonna hit the business world first, yes, our perspective on my perspective is absolutely. Businesses are first businesses calling in saying hey. We want to understand how this technology allows us to drive different outcomes. Take up costs creating you you changed the experience for workers or our end customers, and so they want to play with it right. It's entirely new era, and if I, my kids, humor civilian wondering when this technology starts to move beyond the business world to the individual consumer,
you had to guess about a timeline. Why don't you guess why I'd say near the future starts with today and just like, we were talking about we ve forgotten winded ways come out winded air B and become our winded. These things that feel like magic now they weren't even things we imagined a few short years ago, the consumer experiences can be the same when a few years from now we're all gonna wake up and be like him. I toothbrush toxin when David Baltimore and Howard Timid, discovered, reverse transcript, tastes and shattered the central dogma, Bob Gallo, the third time Member of the obscure virus club was still in his early thirties. The son of italian working class immigrants lean ambitious raw.
Rising star to National Cancer Institute. He went to a scientific conference in Paris was stuck in a car when he looked at the window and saw how attention he he's again the streets in Paris like a well sort November member nineteen, these now Europe or the Euro Howard term and the hero walking down to Paris and one window shopping or something by himself seemed stiffer it yet where are you are, you think, is there. You are, I think, sometimes we overestimate the importance of ideas in science. Yes, you need a paper in nature and it changes the way you think about the central dogma, But what is it that really changes the way you think about the central dogma when you meet the person who challenge the central dogma and because
that person is so remarkable. You realize. Oh, I want to be like that. Bob Gallo met Howard, timid and decided that in their to join the obscure virus club It was a when I was a child. It was John Module Cape without, of course, our third pillar. That much older than me out of decade or so, but God knows I couldn't identify, wouldn't want that age, depreciated new hot, I was fascinated by. I was taken in by then I do so. You know I was very good these guys. It's you. Gallows specialty was leukemia cancer of the blood cells and what drew him to. Retroviruses was the fact that some many of them were leukemia is ludicrous his mouth to being the first and most famous, but soon people found others.
Bovine leukemia, feline leukemia given ape leukemia, plus chicken and mouse, so five different animal systems, all infectious viruses? What no one could find was a high Helen retrovirus. There was a growing feeling that they simply didn't exist. The baby here- and were somehow protected against this kind of infection, but Gallo didn't buy it. There had to be one, he decided to focus on a specific subset of leukemia leukemia that affected the blood cells, noticed cells at the time, no one knew how to grow t cells in the laboratory, and if you couldn't grow t cells, you could find or study anything get infected them. Gallows lab figured out how to grow t cells then he began searching and in
nineteen, seventy nine. He found it in the blood of a twenty eight year old african American from Mobile Alabama Gallo called what he found Human T lymph Tropic virus, one hd lp one. It turned out the man's whole family. Leukemia to Gallo then found a man in the merchant Marines with a history of sexual contacts in Japan and the caribbean same thing, Kenya, and a weakened immune system in his blood gallo could see traces of a virus with that tell Tale bit of reverse transcript. Is a human right of virus spread by mother to child sexual contact and blood to blood transmission previously unknown MA definitely obscure. Gallows submitted his findings to the Journal of Virology
deleting scientific journal in the field and what happened the same thing that happened to Howard, timid and Ludovic gross. The world wasn't ready to accept the idea of a human retrovirus. The paper was rejected. Gallo keeps that letter on his wall. Dear I regret that your paper on the t, sell retrovirus is not acceptable for public. Nation in the journal virology. There is little point in perpetuating this controversy about the process viral nature of this material for my goodness, and it will give it giving the dates of timber fifteen nineteen September fifteenth, nineteen. Eighty, that's the key fact because, what's happening in the fall of nineteen eighty, it's no
held and it spreading young. Previously healthy men were starting to die of a mysterious disease AIDS, a disease that has medical science battle. If you did not live through the early days of the AIDS epidemic, you have no idea what it was like it leveled. The gay communities of major citys around the world, people were way ding away their skin disfigure by strange lesions. Preachers stood up and denounced homosexuality from their pulpits. Doctors refuse to treat gay patients. Public health officials started talking about quarantine, in those early years. I once heard a presentation at a scientific conference from demographer trying to figure out if AIDS could cause the population explosion in Africa to go into reverse. No one knew what it was or how it spread. It was a mystery except to the obscure virus club who thought
Looked a lot like the leukemia viruses they had been studying for years. A one point in this place sister. You say I think it's a retrovirus goin in involved would the it was a solely by debt definition. I did they getting it by taking you to raise your voice. The paper by Bob Gallo, rejected by the Journal of Virology in September of nineteen eighty, was about human t, limb for Tropic virus, one hd, l, V1, and the possibility that this strange new retrovirus had found its way into humans. Now, a year later, Bob Gallo looked at AIDS and thought it was behaving a lot like a cousin of hd avi, one wife. What legit? I suspect there was a rush of our experience with age Sylvie one, and they let me give those waters that experience both six more. Let each all infected t cells check. It caused
You dysfunction, check it spread from mother to child check it spread to blood, to blood contact or sexual transmission check by nineteen. Eighty three gallows lab isolated and described the AIDS virus and figured out how to growth in the laboratory by nineteen. Eighty five they had developed a asked for it by ninety ninety five. There was a class of drugs available to treat HIV. That meant the virus was no longer a death sentence, That is an astonishingly short amount of time to detect, understand and treat a new disease, and Why was the progress so fast because we had a head start? in the mountains that have been said and written about AIDS, the use he'll tone is one of horror at the indifference and incompetence and resistance to greeted the epidemic. All of that
true, but you can also make the case that we got lucky not lucky in some ephemeral way massively unequivocally ethically lucky lucky, because look the gross insisted doggedly year after year than a virus could cause cancer because Howard Timid insisted that the central dogma was wrong. Because timid in Baltimore found a crucial little enzyme called reverse transcript is because Bob Gallo got it into his head that if they were my structural viruses and chicken retroviruses and cat retroviruses there had to be human retroviruses, and then he found a human retrovirus and learned, worked and learn to isolated and grow it in the laboratory and every one of those lessons turned out to be perfect preparation for the most terrifying retrovirus
known if HIV arrives as a force ten years earlier, what happens scientifically medically disaster? This is David Baltimore again, the worst thing that can happen, and it was proof then the HIV epidemic is not to know what's causing a disease, because that gives liberty to fantasy We could know it was infectious and no, it was a virus but not be able to. We couldn't find it couldn't find it. Remember what David Baltimore said of the experiment in nineteen seventy to lead him to reverse transcript. Is it took two days? It was a trivial thing but only because he knew what he was looking for. If you are faced with a retrovirus and you don't know what you're looking for your lost, you can't find it unless you know it's his particular class of
break. It was the search for reverse transcript days, in the virus particles that opened up the knowledge that it was a virus that was causing the disease. The world may not have been ready for HIV, but the obscure virus club was. Little bit gross died in ninety ninety nine, at the age of ninety five of stomach cancer caused by infection with the bacterium helical backdoor by which he himself had researched, How would term indict five years earlier in nineteen? Eighty four at the age of fifty nine of lung cancer, the obscure kind you can get, even if you ve, never smoked Bob Gallo is still very much alive with pictures of his old friends on the All of his office now there is life here- is just as this is not long before he died
so young, so sad, awful, a timid, memorial service Gallo tell the story of his first encounter with his friend years before in Paris, I found a copy of his eulogy. It's like the beginning of a love story. I was in a trap. Stall taxi with a few others, and we saw Howard, working alone and he was poking his nose in and out of the store windows. He was smiling. He was looking quizzical. He was the picture of happy boyhood curiosity retained in a man. I think maybe you ve been inside its alone. Do you miss how astonishing it is true as true my wife would put it in a mystery signal at this
the more powerful than you'll be or anything else, or look. What is dominant role towards Russia sceptics? There is no field. I started that too. I would start here what, if any of these people paint rouse the Gross Howard TIM and Robert Gallo in their pursuit of truth, had been motivated by the experts, Station of reward, where would we be or if they listen to what others said, as opposed to trusting in what their own experiments revealed or if they had only been willing to wander five years in the wilderness instead of ten. Many of the stories in the season and provision is, history- have come down. To the same issue, how we should act in the world in novel and difficult circumstances, how we should think about what matters for a profession
Well think about those who choose a cook path or dissent from orthodoxy or both The traditions of others or engage with someone loathsome I could go on, but if you are looking for one example to be your guide start with this one, the grace and persistence of Howard tension and the obscure virus club, Thank you for listening to season for of revisionist history, week under business history. I say the names of the but behind the revision is history podcast, and for this episode I wanted to let you hear them say their names for themselves. This is my team. Nothing would happen without them
me a low bow, Jacob Psmith, Julia Barton, flown Williams, Camille Baptista, Luis gather. Special thanks to colleague, Migliori Heather, Faint, Maggie, Taylor, Beth, Johnson, Maya, caning and Jacob iceberg. Hell happened. By the way you can hear a longer version of my interview with David Baltimore on the solvable podcast which Pushkin produces with the Rockefeller Foundation, Revisionist history is brought to buy Pushkin industries. I Malcolm grandma.
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Transcript generated on 2020-01-11.