« Revisionist History

The Powerball Revolution


In Bolivia, a political activist radically reforms the voting process for... student council elections. Who else does he convince? Revisionist History. And maybe a fancy private school in New Jersey. Get Revisionist History updates first by signing up for our newsletter at pushkin.fm.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pushed her question was nagging me: who killed choose this truth problem. It isn't just bad its deadly Angela, poor and I'm a historian of Harvard and staff writer at the new Yorker has been a lot of time trying to solve mysteries like this one, so I decided to start a podcast. It's called the last archive hotel ten stories from last hundred years, a history of America and of our arguments about truth and evidence. The last archive brought to you by Pushkin industries. One day, not long ago, I went to visit the Lawrence will school just outside Prince to New Jersey.
A very old, prestigious private school leafy campus gothic. This in that I asked one of their dean's. Could I come and meet with some students? She said yes. Does everyone have piece of paper and then Cadena put together a group of twenty kids? They met in a conference room looking out on the campus line on a scale of one to interpret your name on it. Like you to rank your happiness, the Lloyd's we'll schools, current electoral process. Ten, is you think it's perfect one is You think it's maybe time to bring it. Adam Adams, Adam Crock, right, He was the reason I was there. Hurry. One thanks for coming my name is mountains, so you, as you know, I'm a writer and I have a pocket got a vicious history
that's how the afternoon began. I said I wanted to run an idea by them. An idea field tested by this prestigious met, Adam Cronkite, about talent and check. And how we choose others to lead us, and I would, hurried you all to be. If you think I'm crazy, you should say how come you're crazy Maybe this idea could change a lot about what's wrong with the world right now or maybe not really, History is about the overlooked and misunderstood, usually side what belongs in either of those categories. This time I thought it, This run. Adams idea by the students have learned spill and then decide. All this has to do with the way they elected their student council. I thought they should call a constitutional convention and start
there is no right answer or wrong answer, but I want to make a case for something and see how you that, possibly relates to the way you guys do things here, eyes, fill they listen to atoms idea, argued about it for close to two hours. I'll be honest, I didn't think I get anywhere student council was there as well or people who have profited from the Lawrence Bill electoral status quo and what was wrong with the status quo. In theory, not Such loans will elected leaders to the perfect democratic system campaign, speeches, open election The constitution might as well have been drawn up by the founding fathers. For all. I know one of the founding fathers went to Lawrenceville, but then, at the end of the afternoon I said Ok, now that I've, given you an alternative, how happy are you with what you have scale of one to ten
one is totally miserable with the status quo and ten is delighted. Everything's perfect, only see another number off and handed to me Elkton MI where the students handed in a little slip of paper. I glanced at a few I was taken aback. Lawrence will have the perfect democratic system and upon reflection, upon exposure to a little of Adam Kronk right subversion, there students in that room who decided they didn't like it anymore. I told them. I do an official tally later after I got home but happiness in this room and it They seem discontented with democracy in the gilded corridors. The Lawrenceville Phil School
I can only imagine what it's like elsewhere. I first ran across Adam contract online. I was just rummaging around Google one day and what was doing struck me as so interesting that attract them down cold called him? Are you ever in New York city? This was November. He said yes, he'd, be there. February, so he settled on a date and he came to my apartment, young guy beard, big backpack hiking puts so tell me actually before we get into the crush you. Where are you from from the outset of Syracuse, near yeah, sent in New York. How did you could end up in Bolivia, coach Bomba to be more precise, a mid size city in the mountains of Central Bolivia, it turned out to be a long story, starts in Canada, across Lake Ontario, from
his home town tomorrow? I wasn't, I thought they d like where were you? I was sir. I was outside Victoria Hall. Walking on I'm queens Campus and it was spring? It was two thousand and nine Adam was finishing colleges Means University in Kingston Ontario: he wanted to be a politician. He had, as he puts it, a pretty big hero company. He's going to save the world in coming to. Consider this idea, like you, know the difficult to get to the height of power without to make some serious compromises externally, internally and in southern Africa. What am I gonna do? What are we gonna? Do he began to read history, political science turned it over in his mind. Looking for a big idea, you re all the wrongs, but I wasn't that involved in anything
He was more of a dreamer than dewar. Adam graduated. The world was in a financial crisis occupy Wall Street was one of the protest movements to grow up in research There was a tent city activists insecurity park in lower Manhattan Adams. It's a good entity or can join them. There were king panels and panel discussions and one speaker in particular stuck with him and activists from Bolivia who talked about an epic struggle there over water, Adam that insecurity for five weeks until everyone was evicted, Buddy Nypd his experience with occupy left him frustrated. He understood what they were fighting for, but not how there was no
how in occupy. They didn't have a plan to seem like it could actually reform the systems that it failed. During the financial crisis, had a move to Brooklyn slept on someone's couch and all the while, skyping with his new friend from Bolivia, the water activist West. Allah Bella share with allows feel a bit burnt out disillusion from what I've seen it. Will you come down oblivion and in check social movements firm. So he did Syracuse to Kingston to security park. Two Bolivia. He made his way to coach Bomba and there he met my cell s, brother Oscar, who runs a foundation such work. Them for for a while, and then ask her one day colonies. Ask me: what are you into a certain about democratic lotteries and he had never heard concept democratic lotteries? That's Adams idea
replace elections would lotteries. Adam tells Oscar about it. Oscar says we could test in schools, The sign up a rural, elementary school and too high schools. Nights An irregular high school and Adam sells them on this new way of picking the student council Anyone who wanted to be in the lottery put their name forward and then the whole gathered in the gym to hear the results. We wanted something. Was very visual that could generate buzz, and so they had some clay pots and we used fava beans as a crop that grow their biggest beans. You can find and till we have two colors green and purple the students who put follow beans in the pot and it
with a guy in a traditional cloth from there and others can visually beautiful if they would. Two hundred students running for eight students, council positions. They would put a hundred ninety two green fava beans in the pot and eight purple ones. Then all the candidates would liner the kid reaches increases under the class grabbing. Do they hold it up if its purple behold it up if it her bordering the whole day. This most to hold it up, so school could see. No campaigning. No speeches are posters, no glad handing ballots, no recounts, the whole selection was over in twenty minutes. Those who picked out the purple fava beans were on student council done.
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Adam Kronk right learned three important things from his work on school lotteries in Bolivia, I'm gonna to call them Cronkite's laws. None of them, I think, are obvious beforehand. At least they were not obvious to him first numbers as in number of candidates. Typically, what percentage of the kids want to be part of the latter, It varies by school, embraced by the school and so at the night. High school. You know these kids after work. Even on saturdays, like they're gonna falls, so we would usually get between twenty and thirty students were volunteering for, like twelve, right, greater, wasn't a huge huge turn up and then at the girl Kathryn school, it was literally like every student that could participate, participated in every lottery and then you know it
another school? We worked out later on urban high school, but in the morning you know their you had at least half of the school after the student council members finished their time in office. Adam always asks a simple question. Would you have run if we had done things the old way, with campaigns and speeches about three slash? Four, who sang know right away? Why? Why do they say no when I say that nobody would have voted for me. I was noon School didn't have a lot of friends. You know not want to run a campaign nine after the vote. For me, you know how is the things that you can kind of guess are impediments. They like serving in office. They just didn't want to run for office. The demands of the campaign were filtering out. All kinds of people who would otherwise have been very interested in,
didn't council politics overwhelmingly those who win the lottery one year in fact run again the next so yeah they re Tenter, Toulon Backup, but when we asked them, you know we'd be normal elections done it majority signal was interesting is the extent to which. Running foreign office and running an office are two very, very different things and someone may be both capable uninterested in running an office but have no interest in running for that's. The first law in a democracy. Elections are supposed to encourage participation, but they don't. They sergeant lotteries, encourage participation, we'll get drunk rights. Secondly, You choose your student government by lottery. You see a change
the kinds of things the government actually does in my high school. This The council basically organise dances, not at Adam Schools and Culture Bomba. At the night school, for example, the student government tackled all kinds of fishes human he's a big problem there, and so they now organised workshop on human trafficking that had like cam, theatrical production and break up groups and stuff they ve got in first aid kit for their schools. This goes on to new, haven't they ve organised educational? trips. The student council put together soccer tournaments and poetry, competitions they opened alive. Sk couldn't have one, and so this listed look donations from institutions and dvds and they were able to get a computer donated from them mischievous station and I set up and they ran it. There oh, create their own student Descartes. Because S Golden have
I d cards and didn't have uniforms, and since I went to school at seven p m the transportation workers didn't believe that there are students, since the charging double the first thing that they work, and I was like part Fraga students was. We wants to ninety car. And so they made their own agenda. And distributed those two Adam. The crucial thing about that long list of accomplishments was the range of things the students were interested in. What do you mean better? That's a more diverse group. They come from different social circles, verses typically at least in Bolivia, you know it to be like a group of friends runs for election right and so have similar perspective on this. Who or what schoolmate neat and or what they're going to offer to win people's votes, stability more case, and so a group that brought the button tells who lottery none of the students to get to know each other. Prior. To that first meeting
They often have very divergent interests in the EU. Have dachshund and artists. You know like from the whole gamut the whole gamut democracies. Posts to be the best system for ensuring that a whole gamut of interests are represented in government Cronkite, secondly says that's not true. None of the gun what is drawn from the same narrow band of society year after year. It's the lottery that gives you a truly representative sample of leaders. After the success of a few experiments, Adam Help set up a nonprofit called democracy in practice to work. Good student governments in Bolivia. I can't tell you the number of times that fresh off of a lottery selection we had the first couple orientation meetings and my co founder role and I will come out and we will be working gather and we'll be saying all you know so, and so they're going to be a really important part of this team. You know,
They present themselves when they speak, where the confident and they don't even finished the term of office. This brings us to Cronkite third law, maybe the most important of all. Nobody knows anything. A number of times- and we walked on those meetings and been worried about particular student who seemed really unplugged no, just kind of was body. Language. Uncomfortable didn't, participate much an amateur gonna, work cut out with our students and now they within a couple weeks, they figure out expected of them how they can plugin and by the end of the term there even voted by their peers, is one of the most important members, a team, and so that's experience. We have had over and over again still kind of get fooled by that. Now the charisma that that's that's, students or have the confidence to her. So the prediction
The mechanism will using for predicting who will be a good leader is just flawed don't even you even you sometimes found this trap of of thinking it because a kid presents herself very well in this post, spoken in here like that she's gonna be a good later yeah dad it's really difficult to. Turn, it buys Obviously, not every student, whose confident charismatic you know, has a big when count work well with others and doesn't show up. You know we ve, had we had several students who fit them Odin and were great team it but generally, it's a lot easier to to teach a shower student Student was not to popular sluggish
It isn't overcome those fears and kind of out a few more leadership skills to their their skill, set. Then it is to teach some of the more confident charismatic students to kind of set aside their ego and like the good member of a team how to steal the limelight in into others not dominate conversations democratic election are based on the idea that voters are good predictors, so they can look at a slate of candidates and accurately predict who will be the most effective later. That's why we have campaigns and speeches and debates to help us make that prediction, but in Bolivia, adamant seen discover that people are lousy. Predictors the teachers soup often are in the meetings, are constantly by no one when the calamity- oh that's what a great leader not even aware that their
the student governments about to kick them out. I've had enough of of some of their behaviour in one student who got picked lottery and during the latter had a teacher turned to me under his breath, say at students at that can work out. I found out afterwards he was the one student from his classes, students who had failed the previous year, and he was one of them one of the more kind of outstanding example, silly that need just really loved to work on a meaningful projects in and they parted now. I know what you're thinking it's Bolivia. What works for teenagers in Cochabamba doesn't necessarily work for the rest of US apples and oranges and all that, except after being schooled Adam? I began to see versions of his logic everywhere.
Hello. This is MIKE glowered, an age delighted that you phone time to chat with me. I just ran across your papers on peer review and citations and found them absolutely fascinating and they feel very much in it theme I'm exploring in my pockets to cease inside. I wanted to chat Michael, our is deputy director of Extra Miro research at the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda. If I had to make a list of the most important Americans you ve never heard of flowers in the top ten he's way way up. In what you might call- and I mean this in the nicest possible way- the biomedical deep state his office hands out around Thirty billion dollars a year in research grants to scientists across the United States. Basically, if you walk through any biology or chemistry department or any medical,
or any medical research Institute lowers office is what's paying for so every year his office gets eighty thousand grant applications from around the country. They only have money to fund about twenty percent of those, so they hold the equivalent of an election. Each of those applications gets assigned to a small group of reviewers. The review is vote for the ones they like and throughout the rest, then those finalists are turned over to a second group of voters, the Yours who were assigned to grant, will give a brief presentation about the grant itself in what they thought were the strengths and weaknesses. This is dead, followed by an open discussion after discussion is complete. There is, then, a scoring, so first round is you're. Throwing out the bottom bottom half that's right! That's right! Second round is your scoring the remainder and how would what is the score,
This goes on a scale of one to water. How's school represented. This is like Gulf, so a lower scores, better ass. A score of ten would be perfect. That means that, as far as the reviewers are concerned, they they can't think of anything better. A score of ninety would represent the absolute worst. Those scores our predictions about how good a scientist proposal is in exactly the same way that the choices voters make our predictions about how good a leader a candidate will be Cronkite. Stirred law says it: voters on very good at that protection. So our wonders what about the end H his grant reviewers? Are we any good at it? Does the proposal the gun, perfect ten from the voters, grant approval time actually end up being the most influential or innovative research. Once it's finished, Lauer looks around. He can't find any definitive answer to that question. This peer review process, as you
is described, has been in place at an age for how long seventy five years, thirty five years, So we had a situation where we have a process in place. For many many years, seventy five years, which is feminine political perspective, unexamined as well, that that's right, so Lauer says: let's take a look, His method is simple: the standard way that science measures designed You of a bit of research is how often cited by others. Scientists in their work. So if I spent five years working on an x parliament, and no one mentions that experiment again. It would be considered a failure and if its mentioned a thousand I'm it's considered a home run. So what is the correlation between the score of your grant applicant she and the number of citations your work gets. Was it's finished. I think you know what this is.
We did not find this correlation between the Peer review score and does the citation metrics of the other subsequently funded grant. Now it's worth pointing something else: doesn't go into this thinking that the end age is going to be subject to Cronkite, stirred law. Nobody knows anything after all powers, not talking about Adolescents, judging other adolescence, he's talking distinguished scientists, judging the potential of other distinguished scientists we had assumed that we would find that a reasonable? strong correlation between the Peer review score and the grand productivity really young, I I assume that you went in skeptical, though, but then again as I said, if we knew what we were doing, we wouldn't call it research
Great stirred law applies outside of coach Bomba. It applies even at the National Institutes of health to the process by which billions of dollars of research money is distributed. It's not concrete. Third love, it's crock rights, universal third law when our publishes his research lots of other scientists look at his results and say: if he's right, our electoral system in science is broken. I mean why bother voting on grants at all people throughout the scientific community start talking like Adam Start saying. Let's just do a lottery, let the reviewers make the first cut and get rid of the obvious losers then put the rest in
my favorite article ran in the Wall Street Journal by two microbiologists Ferrok Fang and Arturo Causative, all entitled taking the power ball approach to funding medical research, power ball, for goodness sake, with the subtitle. Winning a government grant is already a crapshoot, making it a fish by running a lottery would be an improvement. There is a famous line for the eldest, born and also attributed to yogi bearer. That prediction is very hard, especially about the future. By its very nature, sciences, unpredictable, and essentially, what we are asking scientists to do is to make predictions about something which is it. Self inherently unpredictable. Well, so is leadership. Leadership is even more unpredictable and scientific merit. So why do we insist on making predictions about something which is inherently
unpredictable along these lines. I did something fun. Two days ago I went to up to the lords for school. I fancy school in New Jersey and I spoke to a group of kids seen using juniors a random group of kids, but including the student council sitting. At present, and I told them about your work- describe it to them and I said you know at when will you have a very similar situation? This is a pre selected group of highly able, which you use essentially a peer review process who decide who is eligible for the student council right? They have the phone and, I said well, given effected, doctoral hours work, suggest that were bad at making those kinds of predictions at the very top. Would you
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After your first purchase of a hundred dollars or more article prices solo, you can get everything you want. Accepting ego trip. Taught comes something you ever think of trying here, you think, is different than New Jersey. Students at the loans will school take the argument. I brought them very seriously. They lots of questions democratic process at Florence Bill. Steeped in tradition there little Leary of leaving the process up to chance, especially for the top student body president, you don't want I have to go to the first school meeting and have a president who is a little bit shaky because the fur it's time to go to school meeting. You expecting the freshmen to be ignored Is about through your head and the senior Everyone between two weeks I got the Swedes, have you dont, want
the learned with them. The students are crammed into a small conference room. Some sit at a long table others stand along the walls, the headmaster. And one of the schools dean stand by the door, a microphones. To remember wants to speak. This is a student named Sully, have someone initially, who is a figurehead, who can immediately be put into us stressful situation of talking to the entire school and basically entire faculty, performed at the highest? One of the president's most important functions at Lawrence Bill is the school meeting. What happens in the auditorium every Thursday morning, forty five all the student show up it's a central part of the school culture. I'm clean. I think that a good the speaker is someone who is willing to be vulnerable with the audience which is
so I think that being a good public speaker and being a sociable, energetic person is really important and of being a good leader, because when you're vulnerable on stage like tail, sure rapped on stage, which was off when Goddess really excited TAT, Lord spills, current student body president, he standing at the back of the room later tat. I learned he's half Nigerian, have Canyon group in London, notice that we have not heard from the currents presents do council quickly Tat is the only one in the room wearing a suit. A little bit his english formality tell me why you think you were elected, what I think a lot while as elected is the fact that someone who has made sure that I'm very present on campus all my speech as many people as possible.
God, no four dinnery being someone who does speak the people and looks to make change and help people Did you really wrap in your speeches? My my closing speech, the personal guess who was a phenomenal speaker? He he partakes of it. So he was, if not as good NEWS, that an immediate- actually, I would actually say, is a better public speaking, and I was so. I knew that I had not made public speeches by the way. Do the exact they claim that others have better public splore oil. Nobody genuinely He he is someone who who speaks Anastasia. He is a theoretical, so he is he's gonna public speaking, so I knew tat. He was going to come in essence, organs, please produce, a phenomenal speak, so I knew that there was some way in which I had to say the Imo quota of one guy and so that a suitable you can relate to so I decided
to go out with a record. My closing statement, I have to say I really like today- is incredibly thoughtful and charismatic. My first thought after talking to him was, would I have voted for him. I think it would have But then I thought our time making the same mistake that item Cronkite warned about am I and fairly ruling out other students, who might be just as capable of being a great student body. President back when I met with Adam cried, he talked about this one student at one of his schools and coach Bomba. What happened to him? Look what happened! I released a played, this tape for the lorens he'll students. He just he started off. He looked bored he looked uncomfortable in know. Dislike, like slouched in his chair, didn't know, he's listening instead the moment that they started to do some of that work. He just wouldn't Wake up in the meetings basically in and
bottom line and thinks he said I can go in. I can go let it not the merest office, I can go. Do they go to that end? It do it. He fell through. You know that sometimes in short supply. When you work with teenagers, you Know- and he really liked to to do those types of things I need to follow through, and so then people started to count on him and they realized come on him and he took on a lot of responsibility. Adam Cronkite also told me about another student name, Richard New, in school, completely introverted who, then summed and turned out to be one of the most effective student council members. Remember a and with him after the first meetings- and I told them- you know This is your opportunity. Everyone else in the group is looking to you as a as a leader and he stopped dead in his tracks. It looks at me all confused pieces. I'm not a leader
not always out front and no me Nanda like dominated conversation, and I don't like that's not that's, not our conception of leadership, leader Some develops leadership and other people ran works well, my team, and I think this is the key. The larger listen behind Cronkite three laws. It isn't just that were bad, making predictions it's worse than that it set. Our whole system of prediction is screwed up because we require that are candidates perform for us, we'll never get the riches of the world or the student who everyone thought would be a dud. Neither of them could win an election, could day bid slouch in their chairs and look boarded uncomfortable. They get blown off this age, even though both those kids could end up being great leaders in their own right in that room at Lawrence will they were indeed,
and korean and Chinese. In African, an african american and white american kids. They from all over somewhere money somewhere serious some sounded like they were five years old, some seem very young. They were as varied and idiosyncratic as any group of teenagers anywhere would be so why, when it came to leader. Did they cling to a system that ensured that only one type the performer could win? Now, even if you accept those arguments there still the problem that a lot doesn't feel right if you win in an age grant under the old system you get to around and say my grant was selected over thousands of others. It feels earned If you win an election, you get to say the people chose me and the people get to say. I chose her. My name's frankie- and I think I am another aspect of
the sort of arbitrarily pegged lottery look it's a fact. I think it's worth thinking about its effect. On like the students themselves and their kind of response in terms of their lack of control or say over, who is sided to be the leader, but here's what I think Adam Kronk right would have said to Frankie you can't pay attention to the legitimacy of the end result. You have to pay attention to the legitimacy of the process. Suppose we did this hidden. No, we chosen as a big stick. People and then chosen our present by lottery? What percent of. Miracle presidents, would have been female fit. So wait you guys twice. I've heard this argument it by in depends on elections, but
when it comes to President's theirs. It seems to be. The opposite is true that if we had a lottery a whole lot of people, right now who feel disenfranchised would feel enfranchised. It was at that point that is software names summer and suggested a hybrid plan kind of like the law spill version of the idea that has been floated for the and age. Have voters make a first cut then pick the final winners by lottery, who has the potential to learn and to grow and is open team, other viewpoints, where's somebody who is already stuck in their ways summer laid out her idea, then stopped looked round the room rate summer. Don't talk about this is this? Is I love us? Keep going so walk me through, I'm gonna make you d, have students for the day by the way the fact that summer stop like that, while exploring her idea. That's exactly the point.
Of Adam Cronkite lottery work with students in Bolivia, because the electoral system does not reward the candidate who, midway through explaining her idea during a debate, pauses together feedback and take the temperature the room and reflect on whether what she saying is actually what she wants to say. No, the system rewards candidate who blunders ahead. Convinced of the room brilliance, I want more candidates like summer, keep going so described to me how this works like this ideology, so I think the parliament report, like I said, would be an anonymous procedure where people can prepare a piece, any peace. They wondered whether it be a project, and I say a bit now and then from there. I was I to thinking that there could be a lottery system from their because at that point you know the people chosen are ones you're equally interested in representing the unity rates of summer, when it causes the summer proposal,
What you're saying is suppose all students look at these fifty projects and then you're saying that they would vote on the ones they like the best yes and then from that pool you would do potentially a lottery. Yes, of this idea now that they had thought about their electoral system and talked about the alternatives. How happy worthy with the status quo? I wanted to vote have a show of hands scale of one to ten ten men happy one meant this Lucian. What do you mean what you may be, but I'm a leg. You know how to do this and I got them to agree it. Six should be the threshold anything less than six so far, anything less than that they should concern calling their own constitutional convention and real adding the rules half way up way up way up where I carried the day pubs.
All right I'll? Let you know that you are less. I went home and counted their average happiness score with the electoral status quo. Five point: three: a tried and true did democratic process honed over generations at one of America's most prestigious private schools and when you the students even for a moment, to think about how well it works. They say when us assure up, I forgot to mention one think kind of it exciting ways. So do you think colleges should wherever they want to push this discussion was? Maybe colleges should choose their students by lottery I think there is a lot to be said for the or you might you look good idea, Mikhail. I think I do I'm not prepared to give you a full answer on it. You can write.
Age. They were mostly juniors and seniors either on the cusp of the endless college application process or in the middle of it, and college selection is the student body president problem times. Ten right, the student runs for a highly coveted position. The university makes its prediction, but if an age of Europe can predict the best scientists based on grant proposals and if voters pass over- perfectly good candidates because they slouch in the corner. How on earth can universities picked a best students based on college applications? There are much much bigger fish to friar yeah? I like it. I like the idea lot another revolutionary I was suddenly so giddy with excitement that I didn't catch his name lanky kid. Big head of curly hair. Do you think that the reason unite? Think alike? So much is that our hair is similar I think I was a cop or another vote on support-
the college admission lotteries show of hands up most of you. Well, The revolutionaries are not at the gates of loans. Will there inside the gates? Next stop for Adam Cronkite, New Jersey, provisions history is produced by mere Labelle and leaving us do with J Smith. Louise and on a name are editor, is due Barton original scoring by Louis scare up mastering Foreign Williams fact, checking by Beth Johnson Especial thanks to the Pushkin crew. Had a thing. Kali make Liore play a caning Maggie Taylor
Jason, Gambro and, of course, I'll? Have it whispered? Oh and big thing. The staff and students of the Lloyd's will school for really fun afternoon. I'm not It would have been so much clever if I had them, they have a lottery site or whether to have a lottery that would have been so matter and great, but I missed an opportunity.
Transcript generated on 2020-07-22.