If you're the kind of person who needs to be able to check things off the list, I want to make sure you know about my habit tracker the file to thrive habit. Tracker is signature item inside the rise of a community of people all over the world who are dedicated to the idea of doing our five to thrive practices every single day me show their hydrated practising gratitude, moving their body having a morning routine and constantly asking which parts of their life they me to stop adding to let go of or release also find guided meditations for on work out you can take a hike with Trent Shelton run on a treadmill with me. Do hit aerobics with coach Diana do radical, soothing yoga exercises and just about anything else, we can think of

also where you'll find our last ninety days, challenge filled with extra costs, tat. You can't get anywhere else lessons and meditation and really cool screen savers fallen wallpaper, you name it. The rise app is where you'll find it nine hundred and ninety nine a month so less than a single trip to Starbucks, and you can get it on Iphone or Android to keep you accountable to keep you motivated and to give you lots of options to feel great about yourself today, today on the show I am sitting down with Deborah Ter Keimer, a former pie, secure legal expert and leading authority on sexual violence. Examine, why we are primed to disbelieve allegations of sexual abuse and how we

can transform a culture and a legal system structured to dismiss accusers. Look it's a hard conversation to dig in to abuse and abusers and people that they hurt. But it's an important conversation to understand why, culturally we ten to believe the people who are getting hurt the most. In this conversation we look at it from a bunch of different angles and Deborah very graciously allows me to ask a lot of really ignorant question so that I can better are myself information that we should all have. I hull that you will listen, em and learn as I did from professor. Turkey eimer as we Sk Us a really important issue. I I Hollis, and this is my podcast. I

spend so many hours of every single week reading and listened podcast and watching Youtube videos and trying to find out as much as I can about the world around me and that's what we do. On their shall we talk about everything like and how to be an entrepreneur. What happened dinosaurs? What's the best recipe for fried chicken? What's the best plan for intermittent fasting? What's going on with our inner child house therapy working out for you, whatever it is, my guests are into. I want to unpack it so that we can all understand these our conversations. This is information for the curious. This is the Rachel Hollis hot gas. Never I love to start with the history of your career, because I think that really plays a lot into the car

station today and would love to get people back ground if they're not already familiar with your were absolutely size, started my law, cracked, as a prosecutor in the Manhattan District attorney's office on the kinds of cases that specialised in the probably now be thought of as special victims cases, we didn't really call them that back then, but I handled domestic violence and child abuse I'm an along with those cases where obviously sexual violence cases to an so I really am thinking about these particular crimes on this particular kind of violence. For a long time. I started in the deal office like back in nineteen. Ninety seven or something so as a long time ago and work in wealth, honestly, working with the mostly women and children who I know who were my my victims. My survivors my way,

says, is usually influential and it has continued to drive the work. I do condemn is to inform. When I write about when I speak about I think about really every day, I am, I'm fascinated by how you find yourself in that role. To begin with because I think the work that you that so many people do in these spaces is so crucial because you are giving voice to people who need it you're being an ally and a champion for people who need it, but they can be uneasy, to carry So how do you find yourself? Either? doing that work it. I think it does take a certain kind of a person to be both a prosecutor and to work. These particular he says, because there is a heavy opponent of what some night

covers as social work are. You certainly have to be someone who connect with people, and you certainly have to be willing to, as you say, Rachel. To take on a heavy load. Because these story, are excruciatingly, painful and what people have endured is on a map possibly difficult. And yet I have to say is also really, energized uninspired by the resilience of of people who picked up, pieces and went for with their lives under conditions that, you know many of us would would find unbearable and yet somehow the here, in Spirit kind of finds a way and so a found the work to be challenging, and so. hugely energizing and almost accelerating and at the end of the day, was able to make a difference. I thought in the lives of of many, if not most, of these people

and that that was what may worthwhile to come to work until two to to do this difficult job. I could help than I could help see justice now in that work over over all these years. At what point did you start to? so you see a through line or connect the pieces. I am thinking of the new again. This conversation that you're having in that we're gonna have today was that something that you started to kind of wonder about a long time ago is that to mean that you recently seen or set of where the journey to the work that you are focusing on today began. I have general answer in a specific answer so that the general answer is that I think I was sort of constantly preoccupied with the ways in which the system so to speak. The criminal justice system was now responding especially well, these populations to their populations, that I care both

Billy about those who are vulnerable and marginalized and again endlessly web an mostly children. Many people of color and those were that those people I worked with day to day, and I just didn't see that it was easy fur. Those individuals to find, just as there were so many barriers in their way, and so I became a lot professor, and this was around two thousand too. When I started my career a allow, professor and I knew I wanted to write about this- stop and think about ways that the system could do better by these particular victims. And so that's, The broad answer- sorry, you know, can have carried with me the sense that the system needed to do better by these victims and then specifically on credibility, which is the subject of of my new book,

was always struck by the additional barriers in the way of particular victims and Especially women, coming forward with domestic violence or sexual violence, allegations or children coming forward with those allegations, and it was he's going to be so much more difficult for me as the prosecutor to think about bringing that case to a jury and convincing twelve well beyond reasonable doubt with as my name witness, and so on some love. All I think I have been kind of man, in over and stewing about credibility Everest, say started doing this work so just to undo and have not been inside of the legal system in the way that you have is there and please If this is done crushing, because I dont know batch when you're you, your considering, which cases to prosecute based on what you think actually you can get traction on so so

Does it don't mean this? Is some terrible but either entered his where like know this actually happen, and we note, but there's a zero percent chance that or a very small percentage of chance that we could actually get what we want out of this, so we can't take it on I think it's a great question and it doesn't actually have an easy answer. So prosecutes we have to think about the the standard of proof beyond reasonable doubt, which is the standard that applies in criminal court in every kind of case, and it's a very high standard, and rightly so. Criminal defendants have a lot on the line. Liberty is often at stake, and so we set this up so that its fairly difficult to secure a conviction I'm so prosecutors are always thinking about the kind of evidence that would persuade a jury beyond reasonable doubt, and there are now they're. Sadly, gonna be cases where prosecutors I believe the victim but dont like there's enough evidence to go forward and is

Firstly, when you're talking about these kinds of of of crimes, I think you know press there is at least o a duty of honesty to their victims, to say I know in many he says: I'm willing to go forward, I'm willing to put you understand if you're wanting to testify but I also want you to understand that I don't know what a jury is. Gonna do with this case, because they're bringing all sorts of diocese to the two, four unto the deliberation process and it's gonna be really really hard and in many of those cases I'm survivors well will up not to to testify in to move the case, for I wanted clear that I think prosecutors often use this also as a way not to move forward with cases they ought to be moving forward with and in the book. I talk a lot about. The ways in which police officers and prosecutors justice

fall short of doing their job and gathering the kind of evidence that would actually persuade a jury the under reasonable doubt. So I don't wanna let prosecutors off the hook too easily here, and I you know I let myself up to easily here. But I do think there are going to be those cases where it's it's gonna, be so tough, too prove and end victims are often the ones who suffer for it. think about All of the major life changing moments you ve had like your first car, getting married having her first baby or moving to a new city. Of course, also landing that big job, even going after which bring new opportunities for growth and hopefully higher salary, new coworkers, new friends, an awesome new career achievements,

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router dot com, sash easy right now to sign up absolutely free and puts it recruiter to work for you. What I mean The conversation to is this idea that victims are for not believe like that? We tend to as a society choose usually the man we choose the person whose actually done something terrible over the person who spent her right? So what are some of the biases that go into that? And I know it's a widespread you'd have far reaching thing, but for people whom, and I repeat the mayor, who have never considered this before. Why are we not listening to victims of this kind of Let's hear- and this is exactly the question that kind of lead me to write the bark- and so I ve kind of harnessed all of my experience as a prosecutor and my conversations with my survivor,

where's my witnesses over the years and then in the course of researching the book, asked to similar quest What did you encounter when you came forward? What kinds of biases, stood in the way of you getting the justice that you deserve. You getting the healing that you deserve out of all that comes this idea, that the book is really about which MR the credibility complex that we have these forces that shape us in all sorts of ways, and that led us to discount the credibility of accuser, who are mostly women and flayed. The credibility of people accused mostly man and that's. the kind of at the heart of the problem, so what biases that these forces can of leave us with the biases the misconceptions, they are about, who are victims were victims of abuse look like, and how did they behave

horribly abusers? What what are the man looked like? How do they behave what what are the effects of of trauma, all in all of these ways, and I can go into the even more specific, but we have these flawed assumptions about They know how a victim is supposed to act and what abuse. There is thus a look like we expect that he's a monster. He doesn't look like a monster that can possibly have done it. An annex, and trauma and what that does to someone's ability to, for instance, tell a narrative in a linear way and wondered coherent and that has all the details and so I want to believe that many people to do better when they judge credibility, and this isn't a book that is designed to point four. Girls and say that people are try to be

fair to women who come forward or children who come forward, but rather that we're just shaped by culture and were shaped by law, and we don't even realize it right. It's like this, college for us as human beings, of what we ve been taught to believe verses. What we have it and I'm going to assume- in a lot of these cases there that you said beauty we call them. The accuser, doesnt have as much power doesn't have as much resources that maybe doesn't have the ability to be be quiet and speak well and and especially under the stress of something that this intense, and so it. The idea, like I remember talking to us, what is it, what do they call them like? I'm person who helps an expert said of witness in a court case how to how to give testimony or whatever, and she was saying. Oh it it. What use

say, doesnt matter nearly as much as how you say it how you say it is perceived through emotion, by a jury and they're, not now not even necessarily conscious of what it was that you said because their disquiet like her. I don't trust me you don't like it, then the facts so to take a bath see to whether or not they are sort of connecting with the person whose understand, which is why it as it is, and it's like this perverse goldilocks problem, which is that, if an accuser presence as to emotional, you're, not gonna, even use the word hysterical, then she's discredited right than people decide that Dino she's not telling the truth, because she's, just a she's off animal in time, if she's, not emotional enough, if she seems to MA, am then she's discredited because it seems like this could possibly have happened because she's not upset enough and so

it's got to be just right in the middle in order to be perceived as credible and again that's because we don't understand that there are so many ways that trauma can affect us and so many ways for an accused, to tell her story and this part of I think, be greater awareness and the greater education that can help people to realise fuckin, maybe I shouldn't just believe her simply because she's not crying hysterically or because she is well and then I think that the flip side of it is that you have a defense right. You have the the defense team Who know how to make someone well sure how to get someone upset like how to discredit you, through the way that you are presenting in front of that jury. It's been a while. and then I think, like even taking a step back, having a better understanding from our conversation at the beginning that some cases you sort of hesitate? even take on,

emotional cost to the accuser The emotional cost of hair we're gonna go into this, and this could be used is right this could take on there and you have to tell the story over and over at oh, my gosh, How many more do you have an idea was that of a percentage of people who just say nothing or do not because they don't believe that the system will be helpful and that they pick it up. As far as we know that the vast majority of victims of sexual assault and sexual harassment never ever come forward the report's formerly the vast majority. so I know I now and it's so understand, of all right because it It is so hard, even when it goes well. It is so hard- and it I hate to say this, but it early goes well and if there is one, One thing that I would hope you're your list.

here- is my take away from this conversation. It's this over and over again, I hear from survivors the aftermath of abuse, whether its harassment or sexual assault was as bad as well even worse than the abuse itself. As that, or even worse- and this is this is the system. This is all of us. This is not the abuser. This is not the rape, as this is not the harasser. This is what we are doing to survivors after the fact. Well is there: what are? They things and are there things that we do. You know who are listening to those who are not prosecutors, run up police officers who are not one of the things that we can do or ask or demand, and it took to effect this in some way tonight listen to me like man that sacks, but these are for neatly like these are other women. These are sisters these.

children. What are we doing to like make this better. One thing to realise is that most survivors will report first to some wine. Who is in their trusted inner circle and so on, might be a roommate, coworker or appearance, and so I want people who the bark and people are less into this conversation? To think themselves as being a type of feed, responder. man at how we react he's disclosures can really dictate the path forward for the survivor it can be a devastating blow and a betrayal of trust if we are to massive- and we are fair and we are unjust in how we respond but flip side. If we are either. To hear these disclosures and respond fairly and accurately end and not

bring into the mix? Our biases are misconceptions. We educate ourselves become aware, then, we can help this person on the path toward justice and toward healing and navy. That means a police report. word a report to the campus title nine disciplinary authorities or to each hour and maybe a dozen, but whenever it looks like for that person having a person who they trusted enough to report to in the first instance, can make all difference in the world and so this sort of empowering thought to right, it's not we're not destined to just gonna, make the same mistakes over and over again we actually have control all over whether our culture transfer when that happens in my usual by individual yeah I love that too. I love this reminder of a sort of being

on the look out or champions for other people, specifically other women reminded me. So I live in Austin, Texas and here in Austin, there's something called ACL, just big music festival, and I was ACL. Last weekend I took my fourteen year old and his best friend and I would have rather been in pajamas, but I did it. The whole thing We were in like us back area. There is like a bar area and I looked up and there was a woman in her twenties who had had way too much to drink so to do in that same color, like people can't see me, I'm sort of swaying a little bit and I'm just mumbo dry or like big sister Mary go round like hey. How are you could use by ourselves just gonna like one, we're gonna, make you sit here, I'm We'll get you someone, I'm just gonna, let's get hydrogen, let's get something you so a a water. I come back when I come back she's with a man

so he's holding her upright and they're, making their way out of this lounge area and I don't give a fuck like that I'm just gonna go. I will I love those like me. Who are you what's her name where she work. Where does she live? I like a cuz. I was like what are you doing he's like I'm taking her to the uber on my floor? Are you but I'm her boyfriend? I was like prove it tell me all that good. She was like like our and he started chuckled. and then I was like no answer the question. Answering on whatever night. I girl this guy for a bed and other people, What do you mean yeah wow, and he answered all the questions, and then you like did this- is ass? Yeah thank you like he does. I thank you for checking the answer now that you know- and I was a gouty unlike you you could leave now like I just you know, there's that psychology of forget what this is called.

there's something like when there's a lot of when there's like one person around were more likely to help, but when there's lots of people around. We assume some enough how there and it sort of this idea like. Let's not assume anybody has left soon that if you you're at sea, another human being but they're inside of your circle and that as a human you're, gonna show up for that yeah. I love that story, and it really does it really does kind of help shape the frame, we're not just kind of help less onlookers, and you know kind of possibly watching all of this All of this abuse go on in the world, but rather we have a hand in writing. It may be preventing it and responding to it in fair and just way as we would want someone to respond to us if we were in the position, and so why. I love this idea that we all have a responsibility here. This time of year

It just goes so fast this week or celebrating thanksgiving, and I cannot believe how quickly we got and I feel like from now until New year's is just gonna get faster and faster, and there howdy shopping and travel and decorating, and it so easy to get stressed out. So one of the most important things you can do for your health, this season is make sure you're getting really good quality. Eddie sleep. It's why I have been in partnership with sleep number for so many years, because I think at some point on this journey of my health. I just understood that I wasn't approaching sleep the same way. I was approaching nutrition ten and movement exercise, then I will going to get into optimum health which, so essential in a season where there's germs and their stress- and it lowers european system

If you're not familiar with the sleep number bad, then let me tell you, it is so bomb. Yes, I went back to ninety ninety two for this conversation because you can set mattress to whatever setting fills most comfortable to you, my favorite setting is forty two like something a little softer, but your partner. I like a more firm mattress and guess what you can both have exactly what you want discover special offers. Now, for a limited time, at your local sleep number store or at sleep number dot com, slash rise, sleep number proven quality sleep is alive, Changing sleep. What are some of the things that we should be aware? I know I know what sort of learning more information about this, but I just knowing that we have this audience that maybe has heard this conversation before it.

like one of those things that we should be aware of, that the injustice is greater than we realise that it is, and I am so in the past into my head right now is a one way best. Friends just had a baby about six weeks ago she is a black woman and during her pregnancy and her delivery and all these things there was so much fear that we her friends circle had because the mortality rates for black women during pray. The delivery and postpone them are way worse than they are for white women. They dont get this in care they don't I mean it was trying to find a doctor that she felt comes, there's a whole thing and that's not something that I have framework before before her pregnancy. just not something that I was aware of. So what are these things is that we may be don't hold space for the injustice actually happening on a large scale, but so when it comes to women,

color or children or algae beach. He too, that maybe we're not arab it such an important question. I I try and the book to centre the stories of women who, who we don't know they're, not famous for the most part and the there women of color, because just to back up for a second, if we look at credibility and we think about credibility and when it really is, I want I want to say that it's a form of power, Credibility is a form of power and its stupid along access of power, so look at our society and we see structural inequalities like race. like gender likes us economic status. Right. We see these inequalities. You're gonna find that credibility corresponds exactly to those and the more oppressed and the more vulnerable. and marginalized a person is the more likely it is that that,

The visual is going to have a very steep credibility, discount someone who is not going to be given the authority to speak about her life in same way that a man of status of power of privilege in our society is granted the authority to speak about his and so even though my book really focuses in on sexual abuse allegations, and it it's a book about that. This idea of credibility, discounting, I think, reaches far and wide, because once you start to realise is that in the medical setting. Women of color are believed when they come in speak up. Their symptoms in the a place where, contributions are devalued an intimate relationships. Women are blamed for its actions, of other people and on and on and on and a few feet really extensively about credibility and you think of it as a form of power. You start see enjoy

Let us all the place, and they know that sounds really grand minutes, infuriating and maddening, and all of that is true, but it also opens up the space, I think for making some change and for thinking very carefully about how we are going to make our credibility judgments and I- also say You know when we experience credibility, disk something which I think many people listening was her recognise. Oh yeah, that happened to me and I now have a name for it like that's what it was. I can also be really helpful rate can be validated. You realize that it's not you it's it's there. society. Its this sort of structure that is in place. To give certain kinds of people authority to speak and to have that recognised. Other people are not given that same authority, and so what are we gonna do about it? We need to change. It is their ease beginning, something a bow, the prosecutors and peace

Soccer, sir, is that there is. Greater need for them to show up. For accusers, what are some of the things that have been that the euro. Is it not documenting crackly so than the evidence? Isn't a strong? It's it's those sorts of things. Equally it son. It's it's cutting investigation short too early its deciding from the Gatt. Go that its This is a pity, Listen air quotes, I he said she said Carton straight and whenever someone says that it really you're gonna find that they just are throwing up there there, and saying I can't anything about us right. It's a tie, and if its high van there the he in this case the accused, really winds because nothing changes, and so what you see at the investigative stage. As that said she said you know contests- are being just just sort of dismissed

and the kind of work that would be needed to turn a he said she said into account. Is can go forward and can make its way through the system, perhaps to even to a jury. Wool. That's just not happening you see that in the shelter rape, kids that sit all around the country as tangible evidence that Enforcement is just not doing its job not doing anything with those kids suggested rain and the kids her time there, because the cases went nowhere. The shelf, the kids, because the key says have all been thrown out, dismissed and I know that I think it's just you know. We need to look at all this and say how we're not telling officers that you ve gotta, believe every accuser and make an arrest in every case. The comes your way, but just do the work just right, just believe enough to actually do your job and gathered the evidence, and I declare some officers: are family

some simple, effective, fabulous right so There is a systemic problem. Yeah This article yesterday in the paper that there was a case recently, And I'm gonna forget the exact details, but he was a serial killer. He had used dating apps too. find women have sex with them? then strangle them, and he just kept getting away with that and it ended up that one of the victims, friends, basically, sir, the case like to were friends. Dams found this guy created a fake account reached tat got and then handed it to the police, her town and said I found him. He said to meet me here at this time, and this man got convict and had killed multiple women, but a thing happen until a friend got tired of waiting for the police to do it and did it herself? Would you wild wild,

serial killer euro, sadly about all of the suffering along the way that could be provided if in practice, because many of these cases do that kind of corroboration. Many of these cases do have electronic evidence and law enforcement. Officer as have the power. to get search warrant, an issue subpoenas, and there are we to gather evidence and build a case, but you gotta have the wherewithal and the willingness to pursue the case and to think. That it matters enough to do it right. It's not just about believing happened, but also believing that is important enough to hold someone to account and that's part of what credibility and whilst hell yeah, do you feel like Things are getting better, give alike, were sort of at the start of this conversation, and you feel hopeful about where we are in a decade or where do you feel like we are in the cycle of change here? I think something

a huge happened in a fall of twenty seventeen, starting with their reporting Harvey Weinstein's. the nations and the kind of explosive new Yorker a New York Times, reports on this. That law to the hashtag meeting going viral. The movement had been started in two thousand six by Toronto, Burke, who, whose work continues to center the sexual violation of black women and girls, and so I think it's really important to recognize that the movement didn't begin in twenty seventeen, but it's certainly did open up a whole new level of conversation in this country and in the world, and I say more stories, I'm sort of coming forth and continuing to come forth do change. Do change the world absolutely so that the EP yeah. I mean, I think, what some so wild about that is. I was thinking

We too, as you were talking, I my first job that mere max. So I worked not directly for Harvey, but was around him all the time and I know buddy, not one person who worked for him was surprised. Would have been surprised by that information. Nobody I mean literally, he was just everybody across the board. We said this is one of the most evil people that exists in the world. He was awful, but what's crazy is it? I just thought we Al Jazeera. That's ok! it was my first job. I was eighteen years old. I was in turning their while. I was going to school and I just thought you know for someone to cost you out or Sabre. I repeat the thing: That were said that that was normal in the entertainment industry and a wanderer commanded to entertainment and she so that was part of it and after me, too, notwithstanding to have more conversations

every woman. I know had that moment where you should have looked back on experiences you out and go oh yeah, that actually wasn't. Okay, those really inappropriate- or this thing that happened was sexual harassment or this personally. this thing about my boobs? Then I just like laughed it off, because I wanted to keep my job like. There were so many things that when someone refrain that force that it was the first time that we really that that wasn't normal and so I hope that this conversation that we're having in the work that you are doing in so many other advocates are doing. Is changing the way that we and I and yes, man, frequent we'd email allies in this book. As women, we are powerful. We are powerful community of sisters and what does it look like for us to just keep meaning? the idea that it's not ok, yeah. It's argue for us or daughters, are sisters and definitely isn't the ok for it to happen to anybody else. So I ve been given,

nothing else, just making people aware that this is going on is huge, a man I mean I think, about the idea of an open secret, which is what you're describing right. The idea that its tolerated and that people know whose acting up and whose doing white and yet the sunset that's that, business as usual, and because again power who had power and that workplace? What could you, as an eighteen year old, starting out in your career, what could you have done? Nothing right, nothing quit yeah. I've wanted to pay rent Serbia nothing and so you know so this conversation as you say it evolves and we are better, than we were fighting the girl, because we as a society, I think, of a better sense of how commonplace this is anyone when men are male allies, Sir, to ask the women in their lives. Have you were banned? Have you

I ve been harassed. Have you ever been assaulted? Have you ever experienced undercut any kind, gendered abuse? I would bet. They will hear a yes from every single woman. They ask as long as that. Man is trusted enough right to hear the story, and soon I I mean that's, that's a part of it and we to respond to these stories, and we need to respond in in ways that are fair and just and that help the survivor whose come forward because the burdens, Shouldn't be entirely on women to come forward with their accounts, then to have nothing done with them or to be told it was your fault or to be told. We don't really know if we believe you right, it's it's there's gotta. some burden placed on all of us to do better. When we hear these stories.

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how much strength it takes for an accuser to even have the courage to say anything at all and asters. Recognising that peace I went to interests are like a spot in the desert a little while back, and I was in an a yoga class whereat the the yoga class we sat around in a circle there, maybe six or seven of us in the Roman we're just chatting, and one woman who is sitting across her me energetically than just tell something: was wrong what she's, having a really hard time, and so after class walked out with her, and I just you know, total strangers like hey. How are you you know every ok and she just sort of like it was like. You know, you're waiting for this moment and she was telling me she's power. We in her late, forties, Navy early fifties and she sang when she was in college. She was kidnapped and raped, and he He went to jail and for the first time he was coming up for a pearl,

and she was at this spar- big she was trying to have a moment of peace. For she went home and had to testify about this right and she's just beside herself. She saw freaked out she so scared, and she also feels like She don't like total stranger. She just like told me all the south because she was he attacked her when he was on parole he had got now did to her. Now all these years later, she is supposed to testifies at his a hearing and she is feeling this massive wave of responsibility. So she saying it when twenty years He has changed, but an all maybe- and I was like- oh, I don't even I'm not saying that my faces like poker face, but- the thinking, how on earth or even try and hold space for the swollen right now,

and I was like the only thing that I can think to tell you- is that none nothing I'll send. This is yours. instability, except for what you need out of this moment. You are not, possible for whether or not he stays in jail or gets out. You are not responsible for what he did before or what he does next, the Only thing that you can do in this moment is better and you can give your spirit what it needs right now this day. I have never had a conversation like that in my life, and it was the first And that I was aware of oh you're, not out it doesnt if it goes to try they got a prison? Is that it does not turn this woman is still too summit. that being tortured by this experience that she had in college with she's. Just a case, it was that trial, went away. Then you would hope that it would write,

so heavy. It's so heavy one, oh, what a weight to bear- and it does sound to me, like you- gave her the best path, will invite for many survivors, and I have heard this often in my conversations there is such a sense of wanting to protect other would be victims and that I am thinking about One woman is in the book. Her name is Abbe handled and her rapist also did go two to present It was not an easy road and along the way she was, she was blamed and she was disbelieved, but ultimately because there was another victim he did go to prison. You know what she said was I I really know what's going to happen when, when he gets out- and I have sort of me feelings about. You know whether it's enough time, but what I do know is that for now for right now, he's not hurting anyone else and that me peace

and she said, she's a very self aware woman, and she said I I I know I shouldn't have to carry that load myself. I shouldn't have to carry the load of thinking about other women who might be heard by him, but I do, and I will I think she's, not alone. I think you said we we are sisters were in a women. Do look out for one another, not always not often enough, but many of us do, and I think that this so that, like we do right, we can keep someone from hurting another individual, and if we don't, then we can't it's just a lot a lot of prior right. I think, if nothing else there is something on very much ahead, be somebody Cecily bearing he'd be right now, but I do think that even energetically- Ass being aware that this is happening in the world around us of holding space for what that is and an feeling a connection with other women of like

that you will think of her. The way you would think of your daughter or your sister or your friend, and it's not it would not be ok for it to be anyone in your life. So what does it look like to just be aware? I think that is the first step, because off in time We talk about big things like this women will feel very overwhelmed there, like I don't know how to do. I can't fix this, so I won't do anything at all and I think just running with an awareness, because if we start with an awareness, you steer wiring something inside of your brain to notice, tat attention when you see an article on the paper when you see something happening in your town, when you hear a story when someone how's, you their truth, tat you at least now have an awareness of what it looks like to be an ally in the situation and cell number. I'm super great that you are doing this work because we need it. Not only do we need those defenders, but we also need someone to tell the rest of us hey

this is going on and we all need to hold space where thank you so much Three time. Thank you for amplifying this conversation and reaching so many listeners, because I could not agree with you more that really comes down to Rewiring ourselves. We can do it, we can do better and I we will see in the course of our lifetimes huge shift. and huge advances in this area. And we have control over that each one of us, and so it really means so much to be having this conversation with you today for people who are listening and want to grab the book, want to listen and want to learn more and unpack more of this conversation. Where can I find you? Where can I find the work? Give us all the details? book is credible, why we doubt accusers and protect abusers, and

is now ansel. You can get it online anywhere. You're, Indy, bookstores carrying adds a few like to shop online. I think the sites will have it and I am a website. It's a Deborah Ter Keimer dot com. I should probably spell that cause. My name is difficult. as Deborah D B, o r h tee you ve r k each, I envy are desperate, her camera dot com and that has information of the book and information about how to contact me. Thank you. So much your time and thank you for your wisdom and for the work they are doing it on behalf of all of us really really appreciate how I loved our conversation. Thank you, Rachel pleasure meeting. You yeah you to the region, Hollis podcast, is hosted by me. Rachel Hollis are no is edited by Andrew Weller, with additional reduction support by sterling coats, our exact

if producer is Cameron Bergmann. The Rachel Hollis Podcast is a three percent chance production.