« Root of Evil: The True Story of the Hodel Family and the Black Dahlia

Traumatic Reenactment

2019-03-13
The vicious cycle of family trauma continues as George Hodel's daughter, Tamar becomes a mother. Her children tell the heartbreaking story of growing up in a shockingly toxic environment.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Root of evil, is a production of sea thirteen originals, a division of cadence thirteen in partnership with the anti This story contains strong language and graphic and potentially disturbing content. Discretion is advised I've never had a fan telling my story, Let's get something I've heard. Not ashamed of it, and it's actually Can I make a better job when somebody does made at a time while I agree with almost the day I win. it is in on it
It's a lot easier did stronger from something than those that dwell in the hate of something, extreme easier for me, because otherwise, I'd be really factor beg, you say anything to time right now and then there. She treated Joe's this way. He started back in episode. Three. He told you that George her down meet his daughter tomorrow, after famous poem with dark themes and incest, and then When she was for TAT, he got her pregnant was brought to trial and was ultimately acquitted for tomorrow, thing would ever be the same on this.
Episode, the ripple effect and how our grandmother to MAR Hotel continued. The awful cycle. This is rooted evil. The two story of the hotel and the black Dounia I'm Russia and I mean that and where your house, so One of the things that I have never made public is the fact that, early on after dad's death, I have a lot of form conversations with Tamar. This is our goal. Uncle Steve Hotel, More was his half sister. They lived Gather briefly in the Franklin House, in Hollywood back in nineteen, forty nine, that was the year of incest trial the year
Father, George Hotel got to MAR pregnant after the trial Stephen to MAR Bear. He spoke for fifty years nineteen. Ninety nine, when George died peacefully fully and ninety one years old, This is the first time we ever restoring communicating back and forth and of course, the first Revelations reveals to me was the fact that our dad was assessment, the black death murder, so that was the first huge shock to me. And eventually would start me, along with a bunch of other things on the path of it grill investigation. But anyway We're talking about the old man initially about what a room workable. Wonderful personally was, and about his life in general and how much we both respected him and
Setting aside the insects thing she still at a tremendous love for him and in all of this, and then one of the early conversations again out of nowhere, she says to me while Steve first of Elsie, let me tell you how sorry I am for all sex thing. We had what're you talking about Termer. What are you talking about This is all about when we had sex the Franklin House. I had no memory, others and I think we had sex seizure yeah. We had action sex, and I want to apologize for the hope. It's been spin, bothering me if my whole life- and I
very wrong, and it was you know this one. In the summer of forty nine. So I would have been eight years old. She would have been for thirteen or fourteen, and I had no recall this- I guess a splendid up to this day. I don't remember it people who have been traumatized have been found. Sometimes where the and sometimes outside of awareness, doing things said sort of replicate. What happened to them. And is seen as an attempt at mastery of would help
in the past, but is doing it through action and not doing it deliberately facing What happened to one's own self. And so is a sign of unfinished business in many ways is just being extended to other people, and we call that dramatic reenactment his world renowned, psychologist and Arthur Doktor, Christine Car Doktor, her Twa specializes in family trauma and adult survive. Years of incest and her first major book published in nineteen. Eighty eight was called here, in the incest wound you're talking essentially about boundaries. Not being time who is appropriate to have sex, the horse not an Sometimes ironically, and abusive families, the family
I have two strong boundaries to the outside. They don't interact with people in normal ways and end up over interacting within the family, including sexually, does one. The things that can happen in families that are incestuous is they keep apart and sort of secretive from the rest of the world and when somebody gets to the point of seeing it as abnormal and really understanding and that they were abused and exploited and thus scales fall from their eyes, those pretty there are times can be enormously emotionally difficult because happens, is grief over takes them; they realize how badly they ve been used by some one that did it in the name of love, It can be very overwhelming. And there's suicide that often implicated in the cases were suicide. Reality orphanages.
Behavioral expression of wanting to die I or playing out that the individual. Miss treated by someone and treated as though they didn't exist, or as though they were an object and so they're playing that out and trying to off themselves as a result of that, right Intervention that we haven't talked about as the use of drugs and alcohol and by my reckoning. They think that a lot more addiction. These family dynamics then has been recognised or continues to be recognised and I'm not using addiction as an excuse for incest, because they are two different things, but when you ve got parents- where addicted to alcohol or other drugs. There only part time parents, if their parents and oil, and so. Oh there's all kinds of danger and chaos raining that can be inclusive. Of losing sexual boundaries in creating it
chaos in the family. About a year after the incest trial to MAR had I'm pregnant again this time with our mother fauna, hotel, who is away at birth to be raised as a by racial girl in Nevada. Ass fer to MAR That's when things began to spiral out of control, she was brought by her mother to Mexico. To try to forget about giving fauna away the law she was there. She is and it's suicide by taking sleeping pills, then she came act to LOS Angeles, well, she was incredible beautiful. She looked like Marilyn Monroe. That's all. Great uncle Kelly in episode. Three. He spoke about bring up in the Franklin House with George he's, Eve, hotels, younger brother by eleven months,
to Mars younger half brother by seven years. I've put pictures of her that show her and are you saying Marilyn Monroe. She also was very intelligent and articulate and all Very hip- and New world and she was in a world of folk music and can, after our bars and drugs. It was all you know to a young teenager. Just have some really fascinating. I actually moved in with her when I decided to do up out of high school and We were going to move her from Hollywood to Silverlake and everything was packed up on their were boxes everywhere and the place I could sleep was in the bed
with her I got in the bed and I have my genes on and she says a weapon. Brother and sister, you don't need to wear your your pants, and here. So I take them off. And I'm lying in bed with her and I'm watching her breasts, rise and fall under this little LE baby, blue nightgown. I'm very turned on, but I'm not making any moves or anything like that, and then I look up at her and she's smiling at me. So we just role together. And of course this.
Is my first time, but she doesn't know that afterwards, she says that was pure need, this my first time, which is what yeah. I that was my first time. There is never really a big sexual thing but there was an emotional thing, because you never forget that First woman in your life. During this time tomorrow had her second daughter, Deborah Elizabeth. Or Debbie ass she was called then. Deborah, Elizabeth was born in nineteen, fifty for just three after our mother fauna was given away at birth. Moms the first twenty one years of her life picturing what it would be like to be with her real mother,
but remember. Can episode one. Said that my mom was saved by the ghetto. Here's Deborah Elizabeth. She was raised by tomorrow. The EU can break Anybody with lack of love, because of. Is the key to make people home Tamar obviously got broke, Why she I was so mean to me. I think she took out all are paying on me and I was foolish enough to keep trying to fix her. Which is why I was so much a victim, you couldn't have a more understanding daughter than I was willing to do anything for all because she was in such pain.
I believe she was a god. She was so beautiful she self medicated. She first was drinker, knows little girl and then she did. Be than should send me down when I was five and six years old to the corner drug store to pick it up for her. In Lady year. She took out a false for me to go pick up speed for her. She tried to commit suicide a few times. And I was very young. I remember Blood on the walls can she tried to slash her wrists and then we shall always there. She tried to take a second all and she. It took enough to dine Michel is missing Oh Philips, of the Mama's in the papers, one of them Was well known, bands of the nineteen sixties.
The show was nine years younger than tomorrow, as she does, tribes tomorrow in her autobiography California dreaming. As her quote, very best friend who got me interested in folk, music or at least into folk music people? as soon as they set eyes on her. I thought she was there. Fabulous glamorous. Girl had ever met. She gave me first big idea, my fur, amphetamines and we became Very close and now she was my idle then Michel right about to mar quote she decided to commit suicide. She told me whatever anyone might do to try to prevent it. She succeed Michel goes on to say I quote: she
it's some kind of plan for me to take over responsibility for Debbie her small daughter. She put it down on paper, the Debbie then, five and asleep, and Next room would be transferred, to my custody when I became eighteen this done, I assisted her and taken forty eight. Second, all Michel was gonna, let her dying and take me to live with her, and I'll be honest, I know well sound crass, when Michel said she would take me I need to go with her, for she was. Don't good to me that in my little mine, I didn't movement other to die. I just one to go with Michelle. Ambulance was called and they said that if it,
come thirty minutes later to MAR would have died, but she recovered in the focus of her abuse shifted from herself to her daughter. And kept getting more disturbing and or bizarre. I felt so uncomfortable and scared all the time not knowing. Why She'd already molested me, but I had blocked Adele. I didn't know what actually happened to me until I was in my twenties or thirties, because I kept him
nightmares nightmares. Come when the dentist would go into my mouth certainties, inside blocked Alan. I still don't know about that one, but went away. Oddly enough, when my mother confess to mean She'S- never confessed to me about any abuse only that one. I called her crying. I set it keep having this nightmare. This nightmare does not know what happened to me when I was really young that I can't remember and for some reason she made it to me that she molested, meaning It was five ten and eleven after it had, I surgery I said: why did you do that? She said I wanted to comfort you after surgery,
I don't know the doctor said she would sit over there, weren't doctors obviously, and she said they're doing too. I an examination on me their psychopaths and their sociopaths, and I try to figure out which one my mother was. Money is what motivated mother and she would do in nothing to together, so my sexual abuse was Based on money- and she Do anything in my case she took me out of school and and there were sold in great Britain abuses it was five until
fifteen and I have my own son, but from the time I was five two more molested me Then there were the man. And they were women, but the difference about the women when I was terribly freaked out and scared and cried they stopped to spend the night and then the men, if she would send me you before a weekend most discuss to build what happened sure- just send me- say your interests- intelligent and smart in you're so charming. They just want to talk to you It was scary, but I was dream what she wanted for a little while when I came back, I was a hero,
Here's Doktor Carr Twa again. The parent or the abuser is often very skilled at creating it. Atmosphere and using the need for attention and love to gain whatever they want from the child and to put the child and the position of doing these things. Even if it's against the child's wishes, or morals, summons and children old enough? They have morals, they know it's wrong, but there in a position of being forced or doing in any way because their being compelled to and that threat ever banded men who are the threat of being loved. Maybe you against them very effectively. Can children also in this gets into the more sadistic and some children are told repeatedly. If you don't do it, I want you to do your beheaded Although answers doesn't, usually involve those kinds of threats or the. Is a force in cases, it does, and
It just feels that even more creates a condition of great fear, whereas in brainwashed without the fear, without necessarily the fear of something physical happening can just be creating great confusion in. Child or the child, becomes convinced. This is what I have to do for love. Bar was a master at manipulation. She learned from the best her father, George Hotel, and she talk today. Be about. George often she always told me, he loved her, and it was a love affair between and she in love with him. It was like sheep didn't feel she was raped her anything she. Did. It was of love. When I was little you, I wouldn't run
The term and hugging. I have no reason to fear. Cosette was before I heard the story about what he did to mom. You know is very, very young. We would not see him for years. Something was like there be three or four years. For we see him again. He was a kind of man that when he come visit the house he would keep a tight At waiting all dressed in front of the house, just so that every body in the neighborhood knew there was something very important visit That's the kind of man he was as I was reaching twelve thirteen. He would start asking very bizarre questions. At one time, he asked me
I was an order for answering our questions orders. I wondered twelve page S on. Why men like women's breast? there's only he said to me and walked on the sea. Mom. And I didn't know whether I should actually do it or not- everything he asked me to do always dependent on my mom getting her inheritance oh when he stopped talking a mom. For some reason He would only talk to me. The only way she would get money from him if his he could talk to me, Little did I know he was setting me up for him to do the same thing to me at that point, George came to visit and Timor, set up a lunch just for him and his granddaughter at his hotel. So
I went to lunch was like one thirty in the afternoon and He gave me a drink and all Sunday felt really woozy. I mean we were in a hotel with waiters in everything, and I, help very woozy and he called somebody's. My granddaughter is sick. We need to go to the room and then- I was blacking out in the room. And I kept waking up and he was indifferent forms of undress return. They woke up, yet a camera, I was totally naked eye- was spread, Eagle and so forth.
I don't know what he did to me- I don't know me tat. I remember the dress I was in, which is a green velvet dress, which I didn't come back by the way back in his trench, go in my mind beers later, when I kept telling her she's all that's why He came back for his coat and a roll of fail when she finally amended at that she now I didn't fully get them back to my therapist said you weren't a cult of one year. In fully get the impact of suicide. I had everything thrown at me
Fire she literally, everything to me but fire. I can think of a thing that have constantly watch horror movies and I read dysfunctional families- keep looking for somebody who had it more bizarre than I did. Tomorrow's extreme abuse of Debbie was constant and I would always talk about her long lost baby girl, fauna and how much love she was sending out to her Ever she was doing Debbie was twelve years old. She stopped, it asking her mother for something she thought would help them both. My mother hated me in check Tell me about her job to do phone up and she cried over her, and I couldn't-
Take it anymore. And I thought well, maybe if I could become fallen over long lost child, she loved me more psychopaths. If I could be formal course I never knew I'd need my sister so she finally gave in and when Move to why it was my chance for everyone to know me is for now it was a rebirth from me I wasn't dead me anymore. The abused. Sexually abused in all else, the new person I was reborn person when my mother didn't want me any more
abuse continued. But at least I felt like a new person, and then years later fond did come into the picture an unbeknownst. To my understanding, I had heard her deeply by being the same name I understand the winds He finally told me this story which way The only thing she had, growing up. Her name on the certificate that belonged to her was born a hotel. When she came to meet us the first time when she finally Tell me the story that she found.
What she was supposed to be, I traffic and it said father was negro and She was fond hotel. She came back and found his sister. That really was mixed. Now was named fauna. And I couldn't explain to her what was ripped out at me. Many couldn't Deborah Ann it couldn't be Elisabeth because lose a bit was named after was a bit short because my grandfather insisted that my middle name me, Elizabeth after Elizabeth Short Sea, couldn't be Everyone couldn't be Elizabeth sighing had no place determined. And no matter how many ways I explained it.
The peace, the hurt she had and I couldn't explained the hurt I had and I explained to Russia after fully understood my deep hurt myself Sympathy explained it to mom that way she would understood, but I try and explain it. Every way could fund her. Was too deed? It was like. I stole something from her which Never meant to do. I tried to explain why I think we're in kinship. It's a blessing. We're both fauna makes us closer ticket. Together to see a third party. It- was always a wall between us.
By the time had come back into the picture, her sister, on a was out of to Mars House, but her brothers, peace, joy and love were still there, There were no fathers in the picture and this continued. My name is peace on earth. Hotel, Tamar, hotels, son, followed, brother and yeah. That's me and though the surf, Tamar sons there's a lot of questions as to why things happen in our house. I sold that anybody in their right, mind, quote unquote, wouldn't have ever done this experience that bud. Now hold family, that's kind of more common to be put in the situation, being uncomfortable awkward added
being the nor its just really a story that I think more and more stories are told. You start to see linkages to just unhealthy family behaviour which show. Happens in everybody's family by hours just happens to have been a very extreme of that, and you know I pressed, I am glad to be here but you don't think Tamar should have had kids she'd have, above all their adult friends around us, kids and having guys or girls airway coming on to me doing sexual behaviour towards me and me having to defend myself or being like what
going on. Why is this happening to me? I almost felt like a time is being experimented on like a lab rat, where you know she put you in it in a really awkward positions with people. You didn't know and kind of thrust the some idea of what she thought was appropriate behaviour which you hasn't sexually speaking and where you put in a position where we start going. Oh my god, what's goin out with me, I feel victimized and then you start question your own sexuality, about like what's appropriate whites, okay Do I feel right about this? Why do I feel this way? There's no purpose or there's no contacts, no education. It's just experimented on his chest. Let's see how crazy this can get in be. Ok with it.
It made you, especially as a teenager like when you start to feel. Who you are and how you express your own feelings towards the opposite sex of the same sex for that matter, just being YO challenging what you think is normal, just because you're trying to figure that out. Know what it is and there's no one to give you guidance about. What's, ok, what's appropriate, it was just let it be what it is and who cares and the ramifications it doesn't even matter like she didn't have any concern for that. You're supposed to be protected by your mother and your major to do things are, around people, that you really know you don't feel comfortable with and they're, not even challenging what Mothers doing their going along with it and it's like one big happy part
before them and you are in the middle of it being victimized coca arm. My name is joy to normal now I am the middle. Some of them are not avert three boys, I'm a ring five or six, and nobody could feed me. Does everybody was so fucked up. My mom was high, if other than I swear, I don't remember My sister was, dismembered being right there age, we really can take care of myself there's three or four adults mouse and nobody could take care of the kids, I think that tie my mom is doing a lot of via a thousand dollars. Remember everybody sitting in a circle and about
our joint being passed around and is being given to us, kids there's always extra on on, and I can't even tell you how many times I bought them once my mother having sex somebody else using other people have sex with somebody else. I remember were living in Lonnie Kai and die I had a crush on their neighbour girl in her life, I had gone down to buy it. I beach and we reached a cloud goofing, that's what we call the time was open and I was young. I might have been an kindergartner first great.
And I I was trying to offer under the can run down the beach and her dad came down there and just freaked out I I was trying to have sex with her. But I mean to me: I didn't know it wasn't something I had that I couldn't do or I shouldn't do. There was so prevalent in our house. The first time I had sex at young one thousand six hundred and fifteen, because it was so kind of like spoken about or done so but it was like a natural thing. This is love her down, he's the youngest of tomorrow's five children anyway, my first time having sex. It was this girl. Who is my bike buddy
we are fooling around which led the sex and I guess the whole time the door was open a little bit and mom was watching the whole time, and I didn't find this out till I was thirty something nose like you. What the fuck. I said, man, that's not cool, and unless this is not right, what I did at that young age wasn't right anyway, you know, I don't think, but where does young and dumb and oh no, his beautiful and it's a beautiful thing. It's a gift,
the fucking gift having sex at a young age. I think this is the bonus interrelationship. Personally, I think it stems to Grandpa. He taught her. It's ok to have sex in general, She told me before in the past when she was on the stand in court speaking about her dad having these sexual relations with it She she didn't really know any better. For starters, she said: George, said I'm giving a gift of love and affection towards you. So she thought it was ok, that's a sad thing. They hear it's sad
I honestly right now to try my best to keep out. I just don't want to cry about it, because not because she's my mom, but for anybody to go through that and tell the story nobody should have to tell. The story, so we shut her up meanwhile, but when she was China, explain. I should start to go into detail on here. Would like touch me their put his hand to be like okay, anyway, orders, something else up or talk about the beach or blah blah blah, but she had no filter and she'll just go ahead and tell it to you- and it's so strange. She would tell things in such a open way that I think could rob a younger person of their chow.
I remember her telling me the story about how George had sex with their about how it here is the best lavish you'd ever had. And I just memory thinking: why are you telling me this? They almost like bragging. None of these things, you should be telling his children. Even though she was a victim she'd, never could make the connection of being a victim and at the same time giving it to us and making it part of our lives and continuing the cycle. I was very combative in this So like, if something wasn't logical and didn't make any sense in it was detrimental to our well being as a family. I would be the first one to say: hey listen! This is a good idea, I would say something.
And her means of discipline was the killing you calling every name in a book throwing staff at you calling the police putting in juvenile hall. I was up in a wheelchair one point, after a surgery learning to walk again and being captive to her saying I'm calling the police in our standing by the door, I'm in a wheelchair. Obviously I can't go anywhere. She causal, please I'm going to juvenile all in a wheelchair. She call the police may many times. I get even count how many times when I first saw it coming to our place, They thought we were just the worst kids ever we start die unknown. I mean this is because of this and young. They that there's a sharp and beggars
I apologise to earn say: we'd be good as they didn't. Wanna take us, but now I can't even count I'm at times I was in juvenile, our peace. I am sure, love ever went. There was a bears, a better kid than movies. My brothers, they tell me that they protected meals, the last of the litter, and there really shielded me from a lot of the dark side of the family, and I agree a little that disagree a lot because I was still in it. I still seen it. I still heard it I was around it. I mean you know my mom was nuts
The more and more I learned growing up, I just thought wow. I am from a really dark family. This got a lot of fucked up weird things that I dont even know about. I didn't get as bad as peace enjoin on those guys will attend to it. I had it for the most part, the least one eye. One thing that sticks with me and I'll never forget Edit mom was a gypsy moved around a lot, and this point must have been thirteen or fourteen. Old, and why Emma between home. So I was gonna go stay with coal uncoiled uncle. He was a. Spiritual guide and. I remember one night, I'm sleep
being in bed and, like Aside Cottage I don't know a time a morning it was could have been two or three in the morning. I feel, as I'm lying on my back It was a small like a massage table, so I had to keep everything real still without cold, and I felt something touching or grabbing to like my button of my my pants and instant freaking animal air flow, oh there and then there is this dark figure. The Ceylon It was all the lights, rob.
Slowly moving away from me and like stepped back my hello, I commend dreaming and then that figure reverse back, then that was it. I don't know years later. Mention it to mom cause. I was thinking. After learning all about. Mom's incest and what sheep, but father through and how she was, it tipsy getting through life. I almost fell How is it was like? I was a upon for what. She wanted and she was giving outside food little, food going into a wild animals bowl.
In order to have some of that. And then do what I want, and you have more that since that moment I was always apprehensive about anything sleeping anywhere, and maybe a little bit ill guinea pig. Like me, Brothers would say, like an experiment. Not until probably my men, thirty is too early for it is this one. Really started to realise. There is a possibility that Mama's putting all of us at harm with an intention with the motive financial motive. The realisation was caught.
Mom was using us trying to subject us too. I guess sexual favours. I can't put it blunt. Basically, my mom solace. As no two ways about it, turning your children over the strangers were sold even worse, things that happen to us three boys grown up I realise that while moms pretty fucked up she's really demented will you gotta understand. I had a little bit of compassion and my same time cuz. She was taught that. She didn't know better
and they say enjoy, will attach to this. You probably talked him. Everybody has a choice and everybody does have a choice. We all know that. But when you're that battered you don't know the right choice, you're just frickin surviving, She was unwell didn't. Have a moral compass jihad, one unique ability. As to why justifiably inside IRAN had no matter how bad it was like a love, he relationship. You know it's instinct to love your mother, but I also hated her to our values, didn't matter the outcome
Windsor Alive's, with secondary to hers very much like George, was in her life, whether I graduated from high school didn't matter. I was the first one in our family to get a college degree and that I got married and had a child. It was secondary to what she wanted and it was never really a healthy relationship, and I always struggled with her not being able to see that without having it spelled out to her and still was this like. Who cares kind of an attitude I mean when I think of how I am as a father. I go crazy thinking about how I can be a better father. What yeah I could have done or what I should do in the future, and I don't even give thought to myself about my own well being.
And that's the difference between Denmark and me in the sense that when it comes to being apparent, I think that's your primary role is to make sure the kid safe. She is on track for what she needs and that you're there for her regardless. Irrespective of what the kid does, there's an unconditional love, that's not just in words in a nice phrase to say unconditional love and all that, but that you really there for them and that they know it. So many people buried s understandable, because your shame why people take so long to top and sixty three years old now I had the abuse from five to fifteen, but the repercussions of it is because you spend the rest. Your life thinking
You can bear it, I can bear it, it happened, but it's not me, I can bear it, I can deal with it, nobody's gonna, believe me, and certainly nobody wants to hear about it and if they hear about it. What would you think of me. No one's gonna want to marry me. I can't who do you think about it? I can't put these people in jail. I'm helpless. My hands are tied, so that's why these victims I offer you damaged goods. It way for me. I don't want to hear your story, so it
gestures in your time area. But the dark night comes on and there's the triggers New Pierre period. I can overcome it, I'm all I can do it Did your resolute bushes, you can't be real hard to try. Burying your son and the worst part is that party yourself, it's like losing an arm and a leg and another leg, but nobody can see if it's not right and people want and just look away.
You have an accident on the road nurse, the looky wooes, we Anne S, fine, But tell me about you pain the one year it your damaged, that's what has to happen every person that is done through it has to town, I feel empowered, because I am able to tell the truth and I think for every victim. You'll find that's gonna be true, because they can stop hiding it. They can start feeling, shame
even my love, our aunt fauna Chill and our uncles peace, loving joy, and it's real hard for us to hear their stories we You, how manipulative our grandmother was first hand, but we didn't know the extent of her abuse toward her children until we began doing this pod cast, thankfully, their wonderful parents, successful people and full of love. The cycle hasn't continued, but our family is a good or minder of how trauma, if not dealt with properly, can be passed along to the next generation.
Here's doktor twice for the final message: if you find yourself in a circumstance like this, if you are currently and one if you know about one pure in one in the past hope is eligible in all of these circumstances and the FAO. This resource that I would recommend to you is the organization. Rain are a. I am an rape and incest network, the number is eight hundred six, five, six hope. If you're, an adult survivor and you're, looking back or you're being plagued with Nightmares or feelings there is how for you, you can also go through your state, psychological association or Social Workers Association and look up. Therapist,
specialise in trauma and then ask specifically bout incest or child sexual abuse. Those areas are specialised, so you don't want a general trawler person to have someone who does know about how to treat those issues. There is how bout there and you're not alone.
Transcript generated on 2020-01-12.