This episode is brought to you by Washington DC. When you hear Washington, You probably think politics paperwork power, lunches, but you haven't experienced easy. There's more museums per square miles in any place in the country is also where important decisions are made. Lakes which Michelin, starred restaurant try first, you know. I think that now experienced easy to plan your trip to day Visit Washington dot org. In late January, two thousand three three iraqi expats came to the White House. They met with President Bush vice President Cheney and National Security adviser congolese rice. The purpose of the meeting, which came two months before the: U S, invasion was alive, unclear. The writer cannot here, was one of the Iraqis, and my overall impression is that the whole thing was essentially a public relations exercise. The question

who are pro forma bet among them, was how do you think the Americans will be received, and I think we all answered that there would be received positively MC here actually told the president that they'd be greeted with sweets and flowers, but what he remembers most about the meeting is the plan the Bush laid out for after the invasion. President Bush suddenly announced that there would not be one. me going into me into Iraq, but two armies- and I remember, was myself who asked him? What do you mean and then he said, the first army would be to topple the regime and very shortly thereafter there would be the second army to rebuild Iraq and to relaunch the country now he said this. He suddenly lead his eyes and looked at congolese arise, and I think his words were right, meaning have described it correctly.

and then the other thing that I remember is that Condoleezza Rice I look to the floor as she said. Yes, from a clear races, body language was a town, the plan for after the invasion might not be fully baked. The queue suspicion was confirmed when he met with retired Army General J Garner Garner was You'd be in charge of the so called second army rebuilding Iraq. he was in an anti office and there with one secretary and hard any fires any said he. I just started his job the week before and I was utterly shocked by this garner had worked in Iraq during desert storm. Now he was taking a four monthly from his job as a military contractor to manage the postwar effort. Secretary defence down Rumsfeld seem to think that was plenty of time.

George W Bush was the first american president to hold an mba. He was supposed to bring managerial skills to the executive branch but Bush White House turned out to be a bureaucratic mass and no It was clear that in the planning for Post WAR, Iraq, the president's top foreign policy people had radically different ideas about what the, U S should do, but most of the time they didn't make their budgets to the press Let him decide some administration officials, soft peddled their views. Others use bureaucratic sabotage to get their way. Colin Powell, herein State Department had always been skeptical of invading Iraq, although he never explicitly told the president not to go ahead with it. On the other hand, Rumsfeld's Department of Defense was all day and on the war, the job of getting those different agencies to work together to find the war and its aftermath fell to Frank Miller. Here

four congolese erase. The task that I was given was to examine all the nuts and bolts issues that had to be addressed. If the United States went to war against Iraq obtaining overflight rights, things like that, nobody was taken care of none of it. Conversations were smooth or easy, especially the ones about what was supposed to happen after the invasion. That's because the two main players run seldom Powell we're thinking about that problem very differently, Paolo believe that Iraq, after Sudan, would be the. U S is responsibility, he's a guide to the pottery barn rule. If you break it, you own it. His state department had a group called the future of Iraq project. They were too, I think about what kind of government might emerge in Iraq. They didn't have any real power. Economic here was in those states apartment meanings. Guy fourteen had to be a federal,

The states and their very many different kinds of federalism, as should it be administrative, led, structured federalism or should it be ethnically structured Listen, so we were having those kinds of debates. Since then we're doing anything, practical Miller, member future of Iraq product once hidden in their conversations particularly useful when they told us was sort of philosophical things, not action, oriented things and then a drastic, a vacancy askin, We didn't ask to see them, because that wasn't what we're about we're traffic sex so when it came to the hands on work of rebuilding a rock that State Department project. It was all talk. No action has failed. The Secretary of defense didn't even want to talk Rumsfeld like the phrase

do windows, meaning we, the military, don't do humanitarian stuff, robber, Draper, the other? To start a war says Rumsfeld also tossed round. A second catchphrase were and I take our hands off the bicycle c and let them learn how to ride the bicycle for themselves and incredibly condescending thing? I have to say that to say of the iraqi people, but that was you were going to do them this monumental, favor of relieving them of this tyrant, but where I can sit around and have Rogers hammering School this together and keeping the peace. That's for the Iraqis to do before runs out man, the Defence department he spent decade and private business, and he gets rid of obsessed with efficiency he like taking over companies and downsizing them in two thousand one, the? U S, military forced out. Afghanistan's Taliban installed a trick.

National government, a year later, it wasn't yet clear that american forces would remain in the country for decades to come. At that point, Afghanistan was Rumsfeld's vision of modern warfare, quick targeted strikes, A speedy resolution with a minimum of expense and lives lost Rumsfeld, wanted to get in and get out. He was understood and reconstruction, but he also didn't want to give up that turf to anyone. Else. When it became clear that there would be some kind of post, Saddam occupying force, then I'm so sorry. at the moment and decided? Well it that's going to happen it sure. As hell, it's gonna be the Pentagon. It's not gonna, be the state department. If it's gonna, be a bicycle scene and hands on it. He won, it sure didn't want to be Colin Powell. Run so really muscled out the state department Since the former then became in charge- and this really had disastrous consequences because Rumsfeld himself had a personal, disinclination to immerse himself

the details, the very complicated detail after the invasion, when it was clear that it was not going to be some had said, take walk the way Frank Milly describes Rumsfeld. Incredibly annoying. He liked to play mind games what I've got Rumsfeld strict was to return to those during a meeting and, as things went on, he was well what about acquires II, which had already been discussed and decided twenty minutes earlier and soda completely throw discussions with. off track, which made firm difficulty in running a meeting in reaching conclusions Miller where's, one meeting in particular about rebuilding plans. Tommy francs, the general in charge of the invasion was also there in that meeting. General francs outlined the same plan. The Bush mentioned economic here, american troops sticking around to rebuild the country. The president

France has our forces wealth forward, who's, gonna, take law and order behind them and Frank said it was the? U S will turn. Of course there was no plan through military to do that, but we know that we ask that price. Why do you think he didn't tell the truth? I have no idea how how pissed were you when you found out hugely huge spokesman, said general francs had no comment This is slow burn, I'm your host, nor in MILAN. In this serious, we focused on the ideas and the people that launched the war in Iraq. That's where all the energy was among the american foreign policy leadership and that decision. To invade. Iraq is what's that everything else into motion, but the way the invasion was executed had enormous consequences. It really, in many ways the legacy of the Iraq war. So why

The administration make a real plan for what to do after the bombing stopped, who was most responsible for that failure. But what are the consequences for the people of Iraq? This is episode, eight shock and ah. with male chimp, you guess a whole lot more than a url. You get an all in one marketing platform to help drive sales. That means you can connect your data to make more informed, smart decisions and you get powerful automation tools. Their customer journey builder, to ensure you never miss an opportunity to turn shoppers into loyal customers. So if you're ready to integrate your marketing and boost sales, get started today at mill chip, dot com, slush, smart marketing, male chimp, built for growing businesses on March seventeenth, two thousand three George W Bush demanded.

Saddam Hussein, surrender power said I'm stayed where he was and the U S invaded Iraq. Forty eight hours later, the? U S was joined by small coalition that include a great Britain and Australia The people of the United States and our friends and allies will not live at the or save our regime that threatens the peace with weapons of mass murder. We will meet their threat now with our army Force Navy Coastguard Marines, so that we do not have to mean it later with armies of firefighters and police and doctors on the streets of our cities Now this is what is looking sounded like in Baghdad I've. I remember we were. We were sleeping. We just hear the bombing everywhere.

Jamal Ali was an aircraft engineer in Baghdad so that when this war started- and we followed the bed because the whole house will shake I ve heard a rumour weak beforehand that the invasion might be happening soon. He had really believed it, but bought a generator stored, some food just in case and two thousand three iced. I call it the really a dirty war, because they want to get it over fast, so they targeting either the water station elected station and all essential things for the people, which is that's not good everywhere. You, you live At least there something important for four ally to hit a lot of people got killed for no reason. Some of my friends are relative, some of them the I've missing. They don't know what happened to them.

The night. The shock and ah bombing of Baghdad began and be sees an Hurry was on the? U S: s Constellation aircraft carrier, the Persian Gulf Curry watched as the planes took off. There is a young piloting Nathan. The courier spend time with, while reporting from the ship then the planes finally got back. I searched out Nathan and there was an or pilot with him and now and was talking a mile, a minute about taking up targets in Baghdad and how the mission worked. And then I turned to the older pilot and he had experienced the First Gulf WAR and he had been quiet this whole I'm until finally, he said that flying over the dead, He could see the headlights of the? U S ground for moving in and he passed over them They was heading towards Baghdad. the strange feeling, knowing that on the iraqi side, there would be some poor slob, in some tower, probably know idea. What was going to happen,

no choice, but a man is post and he fell form. and was so interesting to hear. That from a man who just drop bombs and knew he'd kill people by early April, american forces were all over Baghdad. A theoretical lived in the neighbourhood of Alma sore full of well off people and iraqi government officials. He grew up with kurdish relatives and left to smother. He hated life under Saddam. What did you think when you That's it. I'm just gonna. Go where you supportive of that now. I was supportive of the terms to go, but I wanted him badly to go by iraqi hands cocoon was working as a journalist and translator. One day he went up to the roof of his aunts house. It was clear that Saddam's military was on its way out and they look at this

guys, and I see that America, like, like a coalition forces aircraft- and I was like jeez like that- means there. There's no resistance at all, because otherwise would not be like so visible, then cacambo onto the streets. There are huge crowds of people on civilian clothes. He saw one iraqi soldier drop a duffel bag on the ground and take off his uniform. The soldier was trying to escape, and I asked him what is happening and they said is massacre man is a massacre. They're. Sending us like to confirm that IRAN's, like tanks and stuff like they give us like ip jeez but our Ip Jesus, I don't even hit the american tanks and stuff or like nothing happened when we hear them, and then the american Tranquil shoot us with one bomb and we'll be lake like shredded into pieces and stuff

heart like like a first like somebody stopped on my heart and just like, I cannot believe it Neither these guys are going to their death. On April, ninth two thousand three Rumsfeld announced the Baghdad had fallen. Iraqi capital was in chaos, looters busted into the National Museum and so prices antiquities. U S, soldiers were closest. Fifty yards, but said nothing for six days: Pentagon officials, so that was a matter of prioritization soldiers, had secured more important sites like the Ministry of Oil there still combat going on, especially outside the city Rumsfeld. So the cat was part of the price for liberated Iraq, so happens in its untidy and freedoms. Untidy and free people are free to make mistakes and can it crimes and do bad things. There also Frida TED too.

if their lives and do wonderful things, and that's what's gonna happen here after the invasion of their cocaine and his neighbors took food and supplies from a warehouse near his home. That warehouse belong to Red Crescent, the muslim world version of the Red Cross. If you dont have a lower system that contract lake govern your life. Chaos is gonna, neither the only and that's what happened, I'm just saying its human being nature. I'm sorry if you many people things their superior to Iraqis they're. Just like misguided. There is no electricity in Baghdad, silk economies; friends,

play back him in the street, so there was only joy and then the american troops would come in and lake kick us into our houses, and you can imagine I mean you're american right. Yes, I'm sorry for the question, but anyway no that's, ok! Yeah! I see where you're from ass we ran from imagine I came from another country or something as invader, and I tell you go back to your house. Imagine how would you feel about it. This episode is brought to you by the rise in prices. Small business days are happening this Friday and every Friday this July come in and the rise in the team of train business specialists will give you a complimentary tech evaluation to help jumpstart your communications, collectivity, insecurity plus limited time off.

like a new find you phone on the rise. Not a customer, though, even help cover the costs to switch into a participating store on Friday in July for Verizon small business days. Five, you Ultra Wide ban available only in parts of select cities, five g nation wide available in twenty seven hundred plus cities offers available would select trade in and business unlimited plan terms apply limited time offer shop in store safely. By early May, Bush Rumsfeld decided to replace general J Garner. Someone else would not take charge of reconstruct Iraq. Paul Bremmer was an alarm of Andover Yale and Harvard everyone Calvin. Jerry he'd, been the? U S, ambassador to the Netherlands and worked as an executive at Henry Kissinger consulting firm. Now he was, when you run the coalition provisional Authority to transition leadership of a rock when Bremmer met with Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary

mostly wanted to know whether you got along with other members of the Bush foreign policy team. Did he ask you much about Iraq or what you knew about Iraq know it he will have known from reading my resume, which I assume its staff gave, gave him that I, while I had had some experience in the Middle EAST. I did not have any experience with Iraq, nor did I speak Arabic. Did you think that was a problem are better? A problem, not really, I think they're certainly were other people who could have probably done the job better. By virtue of having had some experience. In Iraq. On the other hand, some of the people who headaches with the Iraq

probably would have had a problem. Accepting the mission which was given to me by President Bush, which was to help the iraqi people get on their feet and basically helped them install a democratic process in place to choose their own government. Why would people more knowledge of Iraq had have had a problem with that? well, because the Iraqis had failed to do that for decades and there were in the chamber,

in government at the time, people who basically did not believe that I mean in a broad sense, did not believe that Arabs were capable of self government. I thought it could be done, because I had no experience doing it. In fact I, as a country, we had not done this since the end of the Second World WAR, so it was, it was a significant undertaking. Bremmer got a two week crash course on Iraq before flying into Baghdad. On his very first day, he brought up an idea for how to handle the looting. I want to ask you about a comment that you made in your first day in Iraq that was leaked. New suggested a staff meeting that the? U S, military, should shoot the looters. Well, I was, I was basically had in mind what we did in Haiti. When are you with the Marines who went in Haiti

There were similar, although nowhere near as as intense or as broad's broad looting there and the rain shot a few people, and I was the end of the looting illicit. That's not quite what happened Haiti reporting suggests that the shooting, by the? U S, military, actually set off some of the looting, but regardless deliberately using lethal force against civilians would have been a radical break with the. U S, military rules of engagement. not to mention morally indefensible bremmer, oversaw two significant orders and may have two thousand three. The first was known as DE bath. A vacation The removal of members of Saddam's Bath party from positions of power. It was inspired by the dean suffocation of postwar Germany cannot make here, as he knocked. My child, be first conceived the idea when they were working with the Iraqi National Congress till we wanted anybody with high level ranking not trouble.

A major blow for a period of time. now, another generation of leaders to arise from within Iraq who were not by peace and to learn the art of politics and politics is an art, and it requires time. Thinking here was to temporarily ban senior members of the bath party, the ones most likely to be loyal to sit on and most complicit in it regime, that's not how the modification ended up working. It was implemented, awkward, child being his nephew, an almost every single government worker, with targeted more than fifty thousand people sir jobs. If you were an elementary school teacher who join the party because it was the only way you could get work, you were out of luck. Firmer. Second, big policy move was the disbanding of the iraqi army. This meant that hundreds of thousands more Iraq

These were suddenly out of work and a lot of them were young men, and now they had even more reason to be angry with the. U S, it's still kind of a mystery. How disbanding the army became the official? U S policy Frank Miller says the plan had been to keep the army intact and disband only the Republican Guard small group closest to sit on the idea, was to use the iraqi Army to help rebuild the country, but at some point that plan changed, the change seemed to come from Donald Rumsfeld, Socrates, or maybe the office of the virus, president but Miller believes that augment child he might have been responsible to quality. Remember saw himself as a future leader of Iraq. We don't know why. But there is this notion that China be had been in the Pentagon, saying you can keep the Iraqi National Army because they will not be my army. I need them completely disbanded, so I can build an army that, as loyal to me

actually make sense to me. That's the only thing that makes sense to me. Child and his allies always denied that he'd been behind the disbanding of the iraqi army. Whoever's idea was the: U S? Government ended up backing it Frank Miller. Watch that decision happened up. Close grammar was the one who told the president. The disbanding the army was the new plan Lots of high ranking officials, including Colin Powell Miller himself, were totally blindsided. Browser made a bad girl president did not say well this certainly different from what we agreed in March. I give us forty eight hours to think about that the president just give up you're gonna gradually. Let's go of it. No one spoke up. The order went into effect the next day. I can't tell you that if we kept the army together and it began truth and reconciliation so brutal do better.

Education do still wouldn't have been an Al Qaeda in Iraq crisis, but we didn't have to light the match, drop it on the pilot sticks and help poor gasoline on. When I asked Paul Bremmer about the disbanding of the iraqi Army, he brushed off any responsibility for the planter, its consequences. He said the army had essentially already fallen apart. The fact of the matter is that we didn't disbanded itself disbanded so that voice we faced, which had been as has already been made before I came back, were where were you recall, sit arms army or worry. Create a new army and The decision was made create a new army and it was the right decision. So what do you say to people who would say that you in Rumsfeld's and company sort of push these orders through without going through a formal process? I was told.

the Pentagon, when they handed it to me that it had been fully coordinated in the inner agency process and nobody there. No one has ever said. That's not true, so I believe that was done. In fact, lots of people said that's not true. Colin Powell Frank Miller and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of staff, among others in General Miller, doesn't have much patience for programmes, explanations and excuses. This is from the man who tried to roll Iraq with an iron hand, Oh, I didn't know that was happening. Oh my God, was he really doing that is at best disingenuous at worst. It's something I don't buy it for a second, revenues and the only person to blame for the disaster. He made them very bad calls, but he wasn't the a long line of very bad calls. Still.

there's something about him. That's galling people too, I bremmer chinese imperious and that quality certainly came here and our interview. I found a frustrating to talk to you. On the one hand, He presents himself as the man in charge on the other. We reject any suggestion that he be held responsible for what happened while he was in charge. Remo I worked as a ski instructor in Vermont seasonably, the two orders, the purging the bath us from government jobs and the disbanding of the iraqi Army had huge consequences for iraqi society. Wants an emerald Iraq, Chinese had a privilege place in the nations institutions, even though they were the minority in the country most of the bath us were soon ease sore. Most of the officers in the army, one of the fundamental questions for Iraq after Sudan was who gets to be in charge now before the war cannot make here not much Hobbes. To discuss our question.

look here. Imagine a unified nation were soon ease and Shiites and everyone else themselves of the Rockies. First and foremost, jollity want to power, and he thought the best way to get it was to champion the interests of his people. She a majority over the Sunnis who have them down mature members, going on a long, walk or child be a month before the invasion. That's when he realized they had very different visions. He thought that this was a turning point in which, for the first time in the fourteen hundred years since Islam into big, the Shi Ites would exercise power inside Iraq. He understood the importance of that after the invasion child be through his support behind Shi Ite opposition leaders. Here is the great failures that the Shi Ites of Iraq were oppressed, could not stir

thinking and behaving like victims after they took power when they were no longer actually victims and instead imposed a victim hot. On Iraqis, Sunni Iraqis, Frank Miller, we we created a nightmare instead of having approved the reconciled nation of their. We had in a situation of extreme wretch by the summer of two thousand three the consequences of disbanding the military and firing. Although sunni bureaucrats were clear, Iraq was divided against itself. The country was racked by violence and you haven't sex. A civil war broke out. The government that emerged is often described as a club talker see, its parties are almost entirely ethnic centric.

There is enough chaos that ISIS took over large parts of the country which lead to another war that finally ended in twenty seventeen sum of ices is top leaders had been in arms army before was disbanded, and in the most recent Iraq election voting participation was the lowest since two thousand three, and now in twenty twenty one the country is on the verge of financial collapse. There is one thing, the Bush why has did play for in detail after the invasion? Probably the debate has always shown a knack for salesmanship. Remember. Bush wanted Madison Avenue people to judge up his case for war before went to the public and when the war started, the Pentagon hired,

I had worked for good morning Amerika and the magician David Blaine Design, its press briefing women cutter. So it's not surprisingly, Bush administration want to create a big tv moment after the invasion, and I may first they did Frank. Wretch was writing about politics veneer times opinion page during that time. But as background is a theatre critic came in handy, they decide ahead of time that which is going to announce mission accomplished on a aircraft carrier, the USS Abraham Lincoln, They send a producer to the ship several days ahead of time. Do all the preparations they get a Navy, small, maybe finer jet and inscribing Mandarin Chief George, W Bush on one side and the event begins with Bush co piloting this

plain to land on the Abraham, Lincoln looks like the middle of the Pacific, the backdrop and the military uniforms might have suggested the Bush was somewhere near the war zone. In fact, he was almost eight thousand miles away They position the cameras in such a way that you think it the Middle the Pacific, but in fact less than forty miles away from San Diego and if the cameras had been positioned, Why are you have seen the skyline? the echo the shirt and hotel and all the rest of it and curry was on the ship reporting President Bush landed emerging from the cockpit in a pilots flight suit. And walking the dac. Looking very top gun mean I heard people all around me whispering in approval. I mean his flight suit was very tight.

And he had a swagger like a hero in Hollywood movie. Then there was a five hour intermission Bush came back wearing a business suit. They wanted to wait to what the high what is known as the MAGIC power dusk when Color Tiger face and a part of you look so luscious moment here with a couple embraces and kisses on the beach they wanted that light with a and are behind him. That's admission accomplished. Bush gave a speech declaring victory listen, end, two major combat operations. He called it. in the battle against terrorism and said the U S had succeeded in removing ally of Al Qaeda and the WMD they keep looking for them. we are pursuing in finding leaders of the old regime who will be to account for their crimes We began to search for hidden chemical and biological weapons, and already know of hundreds of sites. That will be in

stagnated tv, pundits, loved bushes performance, Chris Matthews MSNBC called Bush a hero. He said women like a guy who's president on PBS, when I will call them Part Tom Cruise part, Ronald Reagan frank, rich was the least impressed by the execution. I have to say, as somebody you you know, was the theatre critic, someone who now works, intelligent promotion, my ass off after them, it was. It was yes, good shit that scene on the? U S: has Abraham Lincoln was phony in a lot of ways, but a point at one important truth. This was bushes war. You may not brainstormed or mastered the details of it, but he decided on it. He put on a flight suit. He took credit, admittedly, is weird how much of a nonentity Bush was, and much of the planning and execution of the Iraq war.

there's this notion that he was simply a bumbling idiot or a puppet, but you who's in charge, and this all happen because of how he chose fleet there were plenty of people in the Bush administration who thought the Iraq and vision was a bad idea or thought it wouldn't go plant, but no one in the administration told him don't do this. That's therefore, yes, but also the President's Bush created an atmosphere where no one felt inclined to directly challenge or argue with him in the end only to people in the president's interest both are comfortable telling him not to invade Iraq. Barbara Jenna, his college daughters in July, two thousand three Paul Bremmer, tried to jumps Iraq's democracy with something called the Iraqi Governing council. Here's how the logic for selecting the council one since

a slight majority, if she ate in the country, thirteen of the twenty five members needed to be Shi Ite. There also needs to be the right proportion of Kurds and Sunnis, and other minority groups cannot MC. Here. Everybody who was chosen was chosen to represent something, and nobody was chosen because they knew one thing or one tiny little thing about how to lead their country out of a gargantuan mess. That said, demographic look here thinks it was destructive, identity, politics masquerading as democracy, because people forth, as were all that's the beginning of democracy representation. We have got a pretty picture here. We can all look the fact that a pretty picture was made up of people who are self interested motives and and sectarian motives and not Iraq were not acting in the interests of Europe did across anybody's mind or if they did, they didn't think it was important. Economic. His dream of a unified democratic Iraq hasn't happened. The whole project of getting involved

in trying to overthrow Saddam Hussein. Would you do it again? If you got another life to do it over and we live with paradoxes and contradictions, our lives, nothing in me could ever say can on. You should not have supported the overthrow of such a regime. On the other hand, the way I did so

was by supporting and playing a role in legitimizing and opposition that behaved shamefully. That became sectarian that did not have any higher interests than selfish, either sectarian interests or even self serving individual interests in mind. But there was no alternative. The only alternative is do nothing, but he still wrestling with role. He played what happened to his country, but he is a less willing to defend the ideas that drove his support and take responsibility for what he said and dead. Some permanent Americans who supported the Iraq war talk about it as a failure of execution as idea that might have worked in theory, if not for mistakes,

the ground but thou to thinking what a lot of people off the hook like the ones who made the decisions, the wonted and speak up hills into the wrong voices who believed the wrong information who are just following orders? Who failed to learn anything about the place? They thought they were saving alongside everything else. The Iraq war was a tragedy of office. Politics, bureaucracy often devolves into the Reputation Management. All these years later, veterans of the Bush administration are still pointing fingers, rather than only up to the part, they played Paul Bremmer, for instance, disputes the idea that the work he did in Iraq was a failure think. We actually did succeed in doing what we said we are going to do it. No country functions perfectly. Take it. Take a look around the United States these days, but in time of the mission that we set out that was given to us by the president. We accomplish

strawberry amount. In the fourteen months we were there, we didn't get everything done and there were still problems, but there's been tons of death destabilization destruction. How much responsibility do you feel like you bear for that, I would say that what we have responsibility for is that there have not been ten times as many deaths as there was understood on. According to a twenty thirteen study, more than four hundred thousand Iraqis died as a result of the war has more than forty four hundred Americans. I asked him all the the Iraq engineer what he would say to Paul Bremmer if he could talk to him should as it in american way or impolite? We say An american use, a girl like entering alley, has read murmurs book by the way. What did you think there are a couple things at Bremmer, dead de bath of occasion.

And disbanding the army. What did you think about the way? The use it when I told you screw the country of, but not giving? This is that this is one of the worst things he did. I mean this is if I can count how many things he did to destroy my country. I can just just go forever. We were used to live in a big prison, This is how I, how I describe it, what in the present theirs? then there is shelters, resent their security. What happened how's it three American came and took us, from this prison and they throw us in the desert and a desert, theirs I think we are free, but there is not the city, there's no food, so if you're in it as our and your prison, which one you prefer a theoretical. On the other hand, she's a few bright spots and what happens in Sudan,

left his more access information to the internet. He points out book. We'll never endorse how that change happened. It's like that very condescending. You know like it's like you are white like we, your saviors and stuff, like you know, you're talking about the county that have a five or seven thousand that years old, like coaching history and was invaded by so many countries, and they survived all of these invasions stuff. You really think you're the saviour I mean you're gonna have no clue Jamal Lee and his wife stayed in Iraq for two years after the invasion, shoes anesthesiologist in a war zone, things got bad. They left in two thousand five first for Jordan and then a few years later for Minnesota in America. Neither of them can do the work they

trained to do so, living in you as its just like you gonna, throw a living here. Five stars who tell competitor country, but you always want to go back. The food no matter what you do to it, it's not going to take the same thing. The relation with with friends and relative way difference than here yours, you know your neighbour can hardly talk to them that once a week one sometime when someone over their neighbours are just like part of your family. You ever think about going back. Why I tried, but my sister saw me: don't come it's just to offer we were told the United States invaded Iraq in the name of democracy, to give you

a voice in their government, but ordinary Iraqis the ones who have to live with the consequences if they didn't get any say at all and what happened to them. Slow burn is the production of, say, plus Slates membership programme say plasma, get bonus, episodes of sovereign every week. Where will go behind the scenes in the making of the show in air clips in interviews that we couldn't fit in here, and this week's bonus episode you'll be hearing more from economic here Jamal only that the Erika Con, however, to say that, come such slow burn to sign up and listen. Now, it's only a dollar for your first month we couldn't make sober without the support of sleigh. Plus,

So please sign up. If you can, however, to say d come slow burn in one more note of business, we wanted to issue a correction from episode one. I mistakenly said that Eichmann child was buried in his family vault, but in fact this body rests in the economy. A wholly shrine in Baghdad, soberness produced by me, Jason De Leon, and so every summer, God the editorial direction by Josh, Levine and Gabriel Roth. I makes engineers marriage Jacob, Brendan Angela Ladys, composed our theme song, the armor Chris soberness by Jim Cook, special thanks to shared halt, Alsthom Benedict Lonely June Thomas Joy, Anderson, Joshua, Keating, Fred, Kaplan, Derek John Rachel, Strom Megan Hallstrom Soft Brown, chow to Ashes Ilusha Katy, Rayford Leah Campbell, an obvious element thanks for listening.