David and Thomas search for MHSP officers and FBI agents who were present during Seale and Edwards's arrests. And Thomas looks for the support of the local community as he plans to confront the Klansmen in person.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This is a CBC podcast. Say something you say something to me many of them. I give it to me. I say hello, Jack Jack, Mister, Edward check. Ok, Andy. I'm down documentary I'm too I'm here.
The brother Charles more open. He just wants to develop a month. I I'm sorry, Sir, was the dock the listening to someone know something from CBC. Original part casts inside in three David region revisits his two thousand and seven documentary Mississippi, old case team, up with Thomas more to investigate the murders of his brother Charles, more and hand Ready to nineteen year old, who were killed by the
the clicks clan in nineteen sixty four. This is episode for blankly lawyer talk about other. Your talk about people are banned all day all day, Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans and area in August. Two thousand five, too, almost than I had already return to our respective homes and continued to work on the DE more case from afar. The catastrophe kept the news of seals existence out of play for a month and over the next, several I was able to get through the entire set of FBI files Jerry Mitchell had given up.
And find many more documents, photos and media clips. In other. U S, archives, Joey wrongs. I made notes on most every page and created a copper. Hence a database of names and stories. The F b I heard that I wanted to re, examine Our cells are gone. Thomas, and I spoke every day on the phone sometimes more than once, and we also both kept in close touch with: U S attorney done lantern and others, David David, I was laughin already doing what you get still top of our minds- were James Ford, Seal and Charles Marcus Edwards James for
seal was well known, along with his family, for violence in the region and was a suspect in several crimes, including the dynamiting of the blue flame saloon, imbued for assisting in the murder of a white man named Earl Hodges. In summer of sixty five and for running over and killing a black man named Bailey Odell, with his truck on the Buckley Road in the summer of nineteen, sixty six seal was also known for threatening people, including one of his neighbors, for having a black made seal and his fellow clansmen would come together, often in the bunker community meeting at our peril. A pretty owned by a man named Archie pray there? Their meetings were supposedly part of the monthly hunting club or our Rawdon Gun Club, a euphemism for clan, clever
Charles Marcus Edwards was seemingly workaday paper. Male employees, with a short military career, a wife named penny and two young sons back and nineteen sixty four, however, Edwards moved from his head when the Kirby community on May third, nineteen sixty four the day after day and more disappeared from meat veil. With new information in hand. We return south again in March, two thousand six, the next trip of many, It would make south almost always with Thomas this time we would try approaching Edwards at his home deep in the backwoods, have Franklin County to see if he would talk to Thomas Time, for a drive down punctually road. This place had to read
there are forty or so what you see other measures to help have we blankly was the Plan stronghold in Franklin County at the time and many of the most I want members lived here, but times changed and the wake community over the years had sold offer abandoned their former properties. As we drove the roughly twelve miles to Edwards House, I saw barking dogs in shanty shack. Cleared grassy spaces where farms would have been all covered in a drifting brim. Stone of smoke from control burns and the surrounding how much had a pine woods just started to reign? As I drove up, I approached Edwards House trying to his black and white dog. Edwards himself rose from a swing chair on her report,
He was a robust looking man in the seventies with the Sultan, four moustache and big glasses, dressed in a grey sweatsuit. Whither camouflage pattern: hunting cap my place. I'm sorry wants to talk about that, I'm not about a muffled didn't he wasn't guilty of that. He says I'm sure Mr Mauro, just like a few words about size. I guess we plan to Thomas who was back in the Van would accompany me, but when
a return to the vehicle with Edwards, Barkie Dog and fixed pursuit of my heels. I found Thomas crouching on the floor. The way the van was situated. I had to make us several point turn at the end of Edwards dead and country. Road and drive passed him again as we went by, I noticed, Edward, was holding a crowbar and hitting the sun. I have an old shock at the foot of his property with it. Dark when you go by air stay down. Leaving here see- and I got your battery- I knew Thomas was angry with himself and I could barely bring myself to talk to him about it later months later, Thomas what admit to me that he felt like a failure for not confronting Edwards. When the moment came, he was struck
By an overwhelming anxiety that kept him down on the floor of the Van will ever be able to talk to Charles Marcus Edwards. James words here. I'm not going to say I won't be able to, but you got to ask yourself Halle, Now we will have to take this up to result in water kind of thinking that you're gonna, maybe read your head out and say something strengthening our wider than it was a difficult time, in the case we're Thomas and I were still gathering in Mation and interviewing in the southern
already seemed to be waiting for us to give them more reasons to budge. There's an FBI agent by the name of bill, Duke's question them he's deceased, there was an FBI by the name of kurdish Paramount EAST to see Jim Ingram, a man who had a long history with Mississippi LAW enforcement and the FBI was brought out of reach Ireland by done lantern to help find the aging witnesses for the d and more case, and he wasn't having much luck there and if we asian Lenny. He is at an all time at home in California, you didn't even know who we there's two. I way patrol investigators
They were in only and abuse. They are dated four, that's exactly where we are not a great place to be, if we hope to build a case against Edwards and seal a fact not lost on lantern we're just gonna realization I would ever we're gonna do it needs to be done with this drags? How much longer you'll be gets less and less prosecutable every day at all, Ruth that's where we are in the intervening months of collecting and working through the files, audio clips photos and other state and Federal accords. I came upon many names of people connected to the investigation. Clansmen who had participated in the crime or had
knowledge of it FBI and images, p agents who had investigated the case divers who had recovered the room. Means of D more in October, of nineteen sixty four with the jeep motor and other heavy weight. They were attached to witnesses, informants buzz and quite a lot of bullshit. A flurry of excitement and action surrounded my finding of an original document, Mississippi, Diversity Archive that contained the confession by Charles Edward on the day of his arrest in November. Nineteen sixty four document strangely and original, had been sitting on time for so long that the paperclip had rested infused into the sheets. It was an affidavit signed in blue pen by resting officer named Gwynn call of the Mississippi Highway Safety Patrol, and I discovered
Queen Cor was still alive. If cos, I could remember Edwards confession he be an excellent witness for any ground Jerry Proceeding Plato, lamps and agree and on another trip south he Thomas to offer there's from images p and I drove to Gwynn calls house to meet with him all of us packed into a tiny car. The images p officer in the passenger seat, who does most of the talking is named Aoun Apple White. The second officer the driver is named Dewey wings quiet and weary of me and my camera Reims was just begin his career in the early sixties and was involved with the d and more case the four
The occasion was when Charles Moore was still alive. Whims was tasked by a governor, Paul Johnson to investigate and ultimately quell, the student protest at Alcor College. On April, twenty eight and twenty first nineteen sixty four whims actually took photos? I have of the protest that show the Alcor student standing on bleachers of the football field with their backs turn defiantly to the camera. I'd like to know more about that situation, because essentially, Charles more became available for this and pick up and meet Ville, because he was suspended from our current shortly after we took the pictures, but whims who has since died wouldn't agree to a formal interview whims. Along with when call arrested, Charles Marcus Edwards, we ve just pulled up out.
Side when cause house when you have been justly raw crumple, upstairs I'm not gonna ambush somebody. I've got enough lamped and thinks car will talk more openly without my physical. Presence in the room so on the spot. I agree to remain outside while Thomas goes in with the others to record the conversation lamped and takes a color copy of the affidavit. I found with Gwynn poor signature come more memory? Is Thomas Moore. This child would more brother. You still were so was legally this week.
With tat arrest. Why you sign the affidavit justice You know it. Then I made yesterday the pizza rightly working, not bad mistake in the war. The correct. In the early morning, hours of November sixth, one thousand nine hundred and sixty four by justice of the peace in Meadville issued arrest warrants for James Ford, Seale and Charles Marcus Edwards charging them with the murder of Henry Dee and Charles Moore bake them up? He moves will remember who is there a man there? Then the eye and arrest? The motto remember who d the true
I'm telling the truth will never allow not us stellar start, but Gwynn calls in poor health and his memories filled with many investigations. In fact, coal was one of the lead investigators on the Mississippi burning case. According to coal signed affidavit, Charles Marcus Edwards was arrested at five, Twenty five, a M November six nineteen sixty four at his new residents in Buckley Edwards, moved from his previous home in the current community. The day, after tea and more went missing when called knocked at the front door and Edwards, third, leaving the screen door locked call again fight himself and the other officers and told Edwards. He wanted to talk with him. Edwards asked coffee had a warrant, and coal replied that he did a warrant charging him with murder.
Edwards was informed of his rights and the officers left with him in custody at five twenty nine, a m on route to Jackson, Mississippi back see oh car. We I mean we do and we had the average in the bad weather did he say anything about Jack, not over. Initially, Edwards denied having any knowledge of the disappearance of Henry D and Charles, more quote, Edwards was visibly nervous and stated several times during the course of the interview that is me. In concern was for his family, particularly his wife and children, at nine o seven. I am after nearly two hours of questioning Edwards changed his story,
he claimed that he'd been forced to move from his old neighborhood several months before, because his wife was afraid of who she referred to as negroes who parked in front of their home at night, Edward stated that d was one of these men and that his wife had complained that she had Jeanne DE on one occasion, peeping out her. It is. True. That d lived near Edwards in the Kirby community, but it would be shot later that the peeping story was Edwards. Attempt to MR rack, the officers Edwards and stated that it was because of this that he had gone with James Ford, seal and others to pick up Henry D in Meat veil, he didn't know the identity of the other negro with D. At the time he said Edward, data that their intention was to whip d in war which they did,
the nearby Woods Edward stated that he did not know what happened to them. After that, the two were still alive when he left he declined to identify the others who were present at its advised. He had nothing to do with any murders stated he would not testify and would not give a sign statement. But even without assign statement, Edward suggest confess two to officers that he'd been involved with kidnapping and assaulting the and more, but did call remember it will you present within I've come made the boy had made her stay here. What they did he tell me they ve, never fear you picked him up all my pick them up
A ban would welcome. That's what he had already said. You were present during the interview knew this was going to be a problem, while Gwynn CALL had taken part in the arrest of Edwards and company him to Jackson, he had not, according to his recollection heard, the confession from Charles Edward directly I, U sandal at debate here. Why did you say where the fear of event where a man, you will know is that you have added mercy. Did you ever all the one they told you they who kill. Nor, indeed, did you ever talk. I told you, I don't know: did you miss Gilbert Earnest
using all. But did you know him at all in total yeah, where they got. That is much older than do my bit me In addition, we need them, but I think that our aid me from take hooker. Usually this would have meant FBI agent, Curtis Perryman, but both dukes and Paramount were dead its clear that Gordon Cole isn't going to be our star witness. After all, why? Why Isn't coal in the room Edwards in the two FBI agents when Edwards gave his confession is one question I might have asked Thomas is nearly speechless. Well,.
His claim it is, but he wasn't there, but he still has a similar to Obviously I came known, coordinate between Spain and asking what am I read out what she says. I never slight Queen Cor. Didn't witness Edwards confession: and that makes me wonder what district attorney Lennox form a new at the time. Because call was one of the main people who is supposed to have told Foreman the information about the case Foreman didn't move forward on anything despite what appears on paper, at least to be ample evidence. The FBI sometimes did not share information with local authorities for fear they were in the clan.
Meta does dogma that I have determined way that will give us an absolute with so many people involved dead, it's impossible to know for sure, what happened the information about you, but they then, because they were the last to inform my mistake, but an apple white offers what sounds like at least and arguable theory for why the case never went forward and ninety Sixty four states have access to the witness. The bed had the key, but they couldn't using key Macao. They would, alas, the informant so was more and more Well then they never I why, because they were looking at the big big once D and Moor were discovered, the
Fbi began an investigation into their case. Then clansmen Earnest, Gilbert, the man F B. I call Jan thirty came forward with information about the murders, the F B. I saw this as an opportunity to use the DE more case as a vehicle to develop. More informants for other cases, so the F b I didn't want to give Gilbert up. Nor did they want, is fellow clansmen to find out. He was informing and kill him. When it came to sharing information about cases with local authorities like when coal or even Lennox Format,
the FBI may not have been as forthcoming as they needed to be all combined to keep the d and more case from moving forward. We say goodbye to the two Mississippi highway patrolman and try to figure out our next moves, like a reason for hope, though, always reach always silent. Waves tells the confronting true story of twenty six year old Raquel, o Brien Ass, she had comes to liberate herself from the trauma of childhood sexual abuse and a father with a dark secret.
Seven part series includes raw and brutally honest conversations between Raquel and her family as they discuss their past for the first time. What emerged was a much larger story. Here, silent waves at silent waves, podcast dot com or wherever you get your podcast. While working this case. We have to look for ways to conjure. A lot of hope and Thomas often try to do this by, bringing the dean more story to the local community public opinion, It's ok! If you actually yoursel level, if the community isolate themselves from these two in the vision that is more
on one such occasion. We visited the Roxy Baptist Church, the very true whose name was shouted out by their dear Moore during their torture as a possible hiding place for guns. The Reverend Clyde Briggs is old. Congregation Thomas wanted some local help for something he had in mind for James Ford seal over. This is one of the most important than that. We abandon this a bit I also say a person, a portrait of the late Reverend Clyde, Briggs hangs up high centred behind the pulpit where
the church was full of its regular attend these dressed in their Sunday best along with a few who Thomas invited and some press from Jackson and matches after some rousing gospel Thomas stood at the front, Beside him, a sign on a poor that we'd maiden Jackson there, black and red text on white plastic,
Charles anymore and Henry Hezekiah, the rest in peace and justice with the word justice underlined in red. First of all is a lot of me to be here when I would almost more to sort of maize and more from frankly Carter leaving this civil law brother will charge more job. They have one for one years ago. Do I have a right to be here? I have a right to be recalled: I'm going to hold regular counting the state of Mississippi accountable for the Deaf child, that of all whom I cannot fight dispelled.
I just want you to demand from your local thorn just because I'm a guy would never get over this until he shouted remove the thing to do it. In this overcome. You can do here, This is the time this is not have a violent Europe we want
How about we don't want talk about editor. I still think about what I could, but I will sit in the courthouse now want to watch and walk through the red cloud measure. Two days ago. There are just alma is the coop locally? Really they are trying to combat and we need to stay on top of it of you. I have no fear of the rather sad that there are no fear. What did they find terrorists we got to radio. Frankly, Captain James foresee job market. I am leaving here just a human
and I'm going to place this sign not only personal from when on public ground, because I won't ever vital task bar to know this guy live here. We wasn't you and it's just a melting pot of long ago with Let's get out of here Thomas walks out the front door of the church and several men and a few women follow without persuasive. He was the atmosphere in the church was electric. The group makes their weight highway through three at the BP station, then with Thomas carrying the sign another.
We're carrying a ladder and another, a large old fashioned five pound hammer. The group walks along the gravel shoulder toward the place where James Seal lives rub Vidal leather butterflies, I've when I will be on his father. This world, you never know, put a rather about if it far more than a month ago, over foreigners how he created that they will do now. We know tat cow. Do one of our aims The men hammer the sign at the top of the driveway well with inside of seals are v and obvious to end passer by either come at this moment
Then the men stand in a circle. Next to the sign in act their hands in the centre like spokes in a wheel lot right this wrong Thomas would erect other signs around Franklin County to memorialize, Charles and Henry. The sign at seals house would be real. Down within the hour, but the message from the local can thirty to seal was clear. With when call unable to give us an eyewitness accounts of Edwards confession, Thomas and I decided to focus on seals arrest, According to my ever growing stack of documents, seal may have inadvertently, given a partial confession himself.
The names on the FBI report detailing seals, arrests were Mh S, p agents, not trout, deceased and Ford, O Neill, also deceased. The eye special agent, Leonard Wolf, who I'd heard, had Alzheimer's and did even know who he was and FBI agent, Edward POTS, Mississippi officials had told me. That puts, was either senile or dead. Here's district attorney Ronnie Harbour explaining the situation we know that puts is not available. We know that, but these gasser either decision or have no ability to to recall what happened. But after a quick, rush through an online phonebook I found and Edward pots living in Miami and gave him a call.
EL? I say dead pads, please I'm too, but my name's David and I'm working on a story about killing a case that you may have worked on down Mississippi done in nineteen sixty four right and it's the making no the case at the demure case, and I just wanted to ask you a couple of questions about it, because I think you can really help shed some light on on that case. Right. Do you remember the case? You mean the tour due to a tree and with the men through anonymous. That's it by far from being seen our daddy
daddy aid. I found special agent parts to be sharp and clear and he didn't suffer fools most importantly. After forty years he still remembered everything. Now I've been reading some documents here that says that you are involved in the arrest of James Ford Seal. That's right now! Do you remember taking Mr Seal to Jackson Night and you remember him admitting on the way there, while the partial admission city again, but there would never put right. Did you see my after Rio to? There is enough to Rio to Hear- and I really wanted to get your version of the story it sort of that destroy
your face Rio to refer now to read it to her. She might dominus them paragraph here. I guess special agent Wolfe was someone that was with you and he said you money will go to Chicago, yet always Daedalus unfortunate, hee hee says. We know that on Saturday afternoon may second, one thousand nine hundred and sixty four you picked up in your car Henry Dee and Charles Moore to Negro boys from Roxie, you and Charles Edwards and others took them to some remote place and beat them to death and then transported and disposed of their bodies by dropping them in the Mississippi River. You didn't even give them a decent burial. We know you did it, you know you did it the Lord above knows he did it and then James Steele says yes, but I'm not going to admit it.
And have to prove it, then you remember that conversation. If I do, how did you get him to say that those oh yeah, I don't know it all you. Maybe you are the same Do you know me? We didn't data Murray like that, how right right as there was that. Wasn't though there was that obligation wasn't as afford, o Neill had had beaten him and what Do you know about our nor no James Ford Seal went to a justice of the peace in Franklin, county and sworn affidavit. Images. P officer Ford, O Neill, did wilfully unlawfully and feloniously committed. Assault and battery on him during see bills November? Sixty four arrest, nothing came of the charges but distance the attorney Lennox Foreman later stated that he believed the story of the
eating that seal put out in the community would have it detrimental effect on the case and used it one of the reasons he wouldn't go forward with the grand jury. You could never data guided because you, if you meet a guy, I may tell you You wanna hear that you'd never know the truth where the truth, so much for talking about today, so I hope I hope we can talk again and I may give you call next week and check up my former sir. In another conversation, ed pots. Let me know that he didn't want to sit down for a filmed interview, but he was willing to testify if it ever came to that Thomas called lantern with the news about pots.
Our? I will always somebody listed away early payments, which is what I want you to see. If we can have a better deal, may not give us what we mean I remember the frustration Building and Thomas and I around this time we felt that if we stopped pray even for a moment that the whole push for justice would come to a crashing halt Thomas felt through the course of filming over fifteen months. We were doing things that officials should be doing by now, looking through the documents finding witnesses. Looking for new evidence, it was true that we'd had many promises, but
nothing seemed to move forward unless we were on the ground and in people's faces, all leisure frustrated. A brown volume information in. So you know why are you being more to the point where we are pivotal point because we present my course meal or they push. Thomas decided that it was time to confront his demons once and for all. He would attempt to speak to Charles Edward Face to face one more time, Only by meeting his fear head on Thomas felt would he be able to find some peace also being the victims.
Other Thomas's got instincts had always told him that only he could get the conspirators and his brothers case to start talking, but how to arrange a face to face meat and where We spent a lot of time, especially in the beginning of our investigation, speaking to people about it words and seal couple guys. One doesn't Charles Marcus Edward, you know where I live in every aspect of Madeira, oh really lie there are now. No, we don't know. What's it like Mozilla Hagen Church nor Man, here we do anything. Do you? I was a gardener. You value. The gap is good hundred out of date.
So, aside from being a decent hunter, Edwards was also a good gardener and a church going Man This know that the one of one of the mandate supposedly has nothing to do with it is in charge. Digg is a user. Would this be Mr Aigrettes, Charles Martyrs? He's still alive and obviously digging tinkered with churches. That is that this is about his uncle and, as you know, every Sunday, the deacon of a church, the bunker early Baptist Church, this could be an opportunity when America will believe me Mamma. I made up I'm just torn between this day. Thomas
I had discussed the plan for confronting Edwards, but first he, wanted to run it by done lantern, I decided to go down to the church and see him he make it made a walk with me, but with there In fact, when you find out that I went down and talk to him, they're going to have any interaction with what you want to do, as Deacon Edwards would likely be one of the first to a. Five on any given Sunday Thomas wanted to try for a show down here. If Edwards was a religious man, perhaps the church would make him think twice about telling a lie. I mean I want to do the right thing: Iser were vital, toggle women there now we'll topsoil legs are unclear Ramada C. Let's go not just because it is our concern, it Bertha. He said he saved you decide to go on.
I won't do regarded the National Guard clear, Mama, Josiah fatherless. This goddamn then present National Assembly Ah me, like you say you know, how have you leave here and we did John? Now we're gonna hear their formal out what would be the wrong again Tell me what you're gonna do italian swell mobile drown out alone to pass them told me there were today. If you come to what I have you.
A few paces from the Federal Bureau of Investigation poured in his report has the merit of charm water. There was then seal as unless they picked up job more parody of careful lack. An awesome information that I wanted to know about. It is TAT now Axiom charter was body. I will bear case a cart while his name in its document on shooting ever seen. My intended to give this to charm He may have on the term reinstall. The citizen knows enough. Do Thomas writes a name on the cover of the envelope in black marker child model. There was,
and then seals it haven't room. I want to refer first. Who should be getting the churches, a simple red, brick building with a white washed wooden steeple assign, with matters falling off out front, reads: monkey Bout, it hurt Blankly Baptist Church on a pool next to the sign, hangs a small church bell, any What are you rang? It would soon find out that there were dozens of red wine building a nest inside the best, thanks to this, can go back and forth in the front of his flanks and were then we're on the road
after more than an hour of luckless DR buys around nine thirty five, a M Thomas was ready to throw in the towel and then her those got his car. Charles Marcus Edwards, had parked his Chevy Impala in front of the church and was following his wife toward the front door. I pull the van into the lane grabber small camera, and Thomas and I get out In my hurry I leave the van running and you can hear it in the background was there was the answer. I also proposed. The southern worry, no, no, no, not at no. So I want to read it because
Well worth your while your name and the way we are reports That's what you have in your hands are marginal, all I want. Louis copyright momentum of more Thomas J It was more able It was all I want to ask you. Why is your name Jane foreseen in the document We are always came where no for maybe I'll fire so that it will draw gay, otherwise there will be measured, our strategy. Did you do with backing those boys up the Sir Was it a Jew in Zaire, forsooth pick them up, then I said you, Kilo Edwards pauses, looks at his feet.
Then starts to move towards the church pulling his wife along with him. His silence speaks. Did you have anything to do with it? Taking those boys, I've, gotta European, argued, George Bush Edwards finally reached the door of the church. Clearly preoccupied starts fumbling with his keys to open the white doors. Mister Edward, why did you the day after those boys were killed. Finally, Edwards gets the door open and he and his wife are gone time to go. Hurry up wait a minute idea, but I had a steak I got there.
Ought to see that some good bye. He saw the nerves. Some are hidden they'll, Verona, Missouri, River, robust Belgium is a problem. I am, of course, not begging, because I need action He made me acts. Of course. Allow will know is why your name with any of the other If he will know that as well. Get him understand. He will not lie that guy will say he picked them up almost then you gotta call them level until the way he didn't answer. When I asked, if you push those boys up, he will talk, he will speak the truth in the court. We got worse. You will You have been listening to episode for blankly.
Visit CBC dossier. Slash S, K, S, video of the encounters with Charles Marcus Edwards and James Ford Seal and subscribe to escape s on your favorite podcast, app Someone know something is hosted, written and produced by David Region. The series is also produced by Chris Oak Stiff Camp imo, damage Yunus Kim an executive producer. This new Ronnie and mixed by Sl Fernandez. Our theme song is terrorized by Willy King now you're talking about other. Your talk about people are bound to arise.
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Transcript generated on 2020-01-13.