In this bonus episode, David travels back to Mississippi, follows up on the Dee & Moore case, and looks at the fate of other civil rights era cases in the wake of the James Ford Seale trial.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This is a CBC podcast. My land ready the Jurassic one. He began straight ahead. You gotta see dogging very beautiful animal. Would you agree that allows gotta go the ghost of Saint Louis, its July twenty seventeen and I'm back again in Mississippi for a bit of a different kind and of episode. One we're off. Follow up on the DE more case, but where I also look at what happened after the seal trial on other civil rights era cases. But first I start here on the palatial farm of Brian Bro.
we're the only other successfully prosecuted federal civil rights are a case other than the deed. More case began. o Brien, doesn't know much about that. Yet dromedary camel one on Dromedaries ERA born a girl they all like, yet their general play. No, we feed evident Brian brows, forty something blonde gregarious and wealthy difficult, not like had these leading me around this place on foot and by a tv he's collect. a number of other animals here, including a zebra donkey hybrid and a camel
expensive is fifty thousand they dove. Whether they are a few of them are going to make me survived for young men from a French. It own giraffes have regretted up ahead. A small cabin newly renovated with accustomed stone, swimming pool beside it and another atv, following close behind Stanley, Nelson Louisiana Print, journalist and close friend of mine and Honey Carter. I retired linguistics professor. In our midst seventies, who grew up on this. Property back when it was a timber and cattle ranch these families the farm to Brian. In two thousand three This worked hard to keep the place. Rustic
I'll show you how start here he saw the single. This was chestnut hers. This Our cottage chests house is power Why were here today, and this is where my guess day, because they back in town, simple so this was the house that you could touch to see when there was a block. Those like his kitchen was warm can warrior back. Then they lived in one room. What was once a small simple dwelling was the whole We ve been Chester White, an african american man who lived and worked as a farm hand on the property when it was and by the Carter family I've been living in the house will know I've been here since chess or sense after June,
Thank you. I wouldn't think any benefit to Europe. The chance we got the property in March three30three pretty I was a year advance was arrested by the murder of Jerry, on June tents. Nineteen sixty six, then Chester weight was brutally murdered by members of the White Knights of the coup. Klux clan. He was sixty six years old Stanley wrote about the case in his book devils walking clan murders along the Mississippi in the nineteen sixties. We all sit down and the main room of chess, his cabin so bright, and can hear the story. For the first time, I was just wives. Murder is making a very much sense. Stop in public debt is actually nothing that man Chess White was picked up by three clansmen, nay,
Claude, fuller, James Jones and earnest events and driven to a bridge. Over the nearby pretty creek so instead of getting chest. our villages takes it the call up above it empties arrive, seventeen or eighteen round a vampire, current was shot takes it point rather do say it shoot. He's here, you know that matter gets all Jones in all. Car chess is shot up to eighteen times with an M one carbine once with shot gun and then thrown off the bridge adopting all the day so far.
As long as their children were taken, do son it away free Jones, gonna drive ended up being the wire bothering him and he ended up confessing and told the story and every time he tell a story he would add to it and would tell them or every time that became the the. Arrest in all three how soon after the killing of modulating a few days or that the evidence, but this Was nineteen sixty six Mississippi and despite a few, a confession. By Jones, a crime scene filled with evidence and a botched frame up job by fuller, none of them ever face justice back then early two, thousands over thirty years pass. Fuller her dies. Jones dies Events is still alive, but because of double jeopardy laws, he can't be too
play again by the state on the same charges. Somebody mentioned that maybe there's a federal case here, because the murder occur problem pretty green atomic bombs, just as in the day and more case years later, federal power, Secures are able to claim jurisdiction because at least The crime took place in the how much of the national forest this day is convicted for the murder and die in jail the next year in two thousand. For so our easier. I don't know much about the clear approach noise, but it was like the mafia, the guard they got their way where there are really you when the clamour, I saw it all Gordon really. Brian Bro is like many I've met in the south or north, who often
I have no idea of the kinds of violence and hatred that took based on the very ground they daily walk. Nobody is, laughed of chess, his family to tell his story. The few original pieces of his breeze block cabin are now covered. By drywall, but at least chance found justice Where so many have not. Well, I'm a guy Jesus. You are listening to someone know something from CBC original podcast. This is about on a episode. Invest getting the aftermath of the d and more case as well as a look at what's to come for escape ass. This is these in three epilogue now, you're talking about other you're talking about
People are bound to all day oh my day, hey Thomas you got me I'm Stanley Nelson's place. He lives. He lives near fair. Who is the anti worker Werner planter eyes. Work on lots of stuff. I just read some stuff from there Ben Chester White trial here we're gonna, go talk to Gilberts daughter to Morrow. She gave me some film to look and I'm just gonna give it back to her. Anyway, it's an interesting time being back down there, especially not have a new here, usually you're here with me. So it's two different experience for sure I would go round about miserable rebuilt would walk away.
cautions me against visiting Charles Marcus Edwards again without him. I'm not gonna. Go there. This time you got the picture of the memorial right. I sent you family was good, It was good, I'm in town, Collins is Henry De Sister and she was happy to see me happy to see the family and we talk for but an hour or so, and we the old timer she was telling me some stuff that I had never heard, for I wanted to tell you and see if you were, you thought but she said before Henry DE went missing on May. Second, that he had visited her for a couple, a week's two or three weeks, but that during the visit. He said to her that he had been followed. He was being ff. Although around Franklin County Henry D,
but he had told me there had been some at finding him in this boy. He's but I didn't know who wore no You didn't pay. No attention teeth. True problem bent low Nike need invaded, no teacher, you just told me: super first inside, sometime. You Bobby walk any somehow to get behind us but actually disappear decimal requested thinking you know. I've never knew that before. I never heard that story before he talk to me about, Did you ever tell anybody that part of me? Did you ever hear that before I didn't look at it every thing of find. It was something that just happen in the same at the same time I spend a long time catching up talking about everything and nothing at all. He sounds good,
still working out every day on the treadmill out the army base, and is other Charles is always part of our conversation. Man, number one bang it I'll ever gonna look get another job, wallow Jeffrey, but now then I would However, there are ample back, then it would be a dim I've thought about air, but back then it would be a dim how rather than a bad omen may, when I dont realm and every day, and they were on their way back to the shore, a person of their problem, lower or mail brought a vapor went down on them if they ever got them I have a moral mail. There ought to be possible down on them. Make the ever got
Wade was thank God. There would be I abundance of anyone. an order. Our whole premier cleared by the sale. Now Walter every day I can explain when a problem, you recall no gap, given that all, but nobody else, doorway gardening, No more. Therefore, upon your boy, you ve got the motor We ve got a lower thou down an outward looking member of parliament.
It's always a pleasure to talk to my friend said a river I'll, keep talking to Thomas, but now Stanley, Nelson and I have to drive down highway. Sixty one in Mississippi forever with some one else. This time the daughter of a clansmen
based on our way to see Michel, Gilbert and Michel, is earnest. Gilberts daughter earnest was a clan official high up on the structure of the clan, who is a clan conformity with an informant for the FBI. In fact, earnest Gilbert was informant. Jean thirty who, in August of nineteen sixty four began giving the FBI important information about the murders of Henry DE internals. More with me of your story is the most amazing thing is doing Thomas or talking to Thomas goes, maybe station about say over their cousin boy he's not dead. Is Spain right over there and then you go and you find him standing. I have known each other for ten years now. He lives on his own in the Louisiana countryside. Quiet unassuming fair. And polite he's good at,
Can people to open up to him a good chance. We would have faced some kind of on the drive down to Michelle Gilbert's. We trade stories of some of the situations we found ourselves in
investigating clan murders. To me what happened? I've been threatened. A few times chased around a few times. One time with Thomas I can remember that sticks out was we were driving by the house down highway. Thirty three there near Roxy, where James Seal was living in his trailer with his partner and the man who lived in the house where seal was parked, saw Thomas and I looking at the property in trying to figure out of seal was there and he jumped in his white jeep and just skidded chasing us up, and we we took off, we knew he was gonna come after us and we took off in the fact that we had and we raise down beside the Roxy Baptist Church down sort of the back way and Iraq see there and he was still following us. Probably for about thirty minutes. We lounge our way in and around Europe Roxy, which is a very tiny town, and he was too steaming around trying to find us. I'm not sure what would have happened if he actually got up to us Thomas and I venture to manage to give him the slip and got away. Tell me your store. I know you are run off road or somethin at some point now spoken about it on two mourns and roses. Pickup truck is also the lights come on way in the distance from fires would like to share belaboured, walkin Marseille Road towards the trouble it veered over toward me. More and more and more fun. Sorted Jones is far as a good off the road, and it came within answers from the same exact thing happened the next morning. Thinking back about it, you know, there's no question it had he wanted to hit me. He could have so obviously was trying to scare me. I have an idea of who it is proven what case within it wishes during the time when the fright Mars case was really
that was developing and happening in it. So my assumption ahead is probably something to do with them. February, two thousand seven, a month after James Ford Seal, was indicted. The department. justice. An FBI announced an initiative where they said it would be looking into a number of other civil rights era, cold cases, one those cases, the clan murder of a black businessmen named Frank Morris, occurred Faraday Louisiana Concord? Your parish? as the lead rapporteur for the courtiers sentinel Stanley decided to take a look at the case, the fur. Civil rights called case. He had ever tackled his work here it would go on to be nominated for the Pulitzer Prize, and I felt wireless and resting The story where I may was fascinated me, but I did
you think you could do much with it. It was too much time and I didn't. I never went back in an old clamored, the murder of Frank Morris, occurs in December nineteen sixty four. story of it, starts with an infamous and much feared local deputy sheriff named frank. The latter would have to an article frying Morris according to stand. These research deputy Delano, gets into an argument with Frank Morris over credit for a shoe repair de la water? Tell the clansman named Cooney Passo to get together a wrecking crew and burn the shop down. So now I connect it to Spencer NEWS. Twenty five years old was attending Klan meetings. Arthur Leonard Spencer was a trucker and admitted member of the clan
asked to join the wrecking crew and as the name to pay attention to here before in two thousand seven, when Stanley began looking into the case Spencer, was the only suspect who was still alive also Spencer COM to delivering it out by disposed to inspect anybody to be there but supposedly unbeknownst to the clansmen for Morris was asleep in the back room of his shop more us awoke to the sound of glass breaking and got up to find two white men, one had a shot gun, the other an
he can of gasoline and a match Mars comes out, confront some force him back in the shop like five francs, Frank, somehow managed to escape, though he was horribly burned and Stanley, and I have found the only known photos of them after the blaze taken by one of his friends as appalling and painful, as can be imagined. One witness reported that as Frank fled back door of the shop. He charred and shredded flush behind on the ground in the shade, with his feet, Frank was taken to the hospital where he held out drugged with more.
for four days before he finally succumbed who is responsible for the water was response because of that argue did not over those two men in the early nineteenth seventies daughter was investigated for corruption and, ultimately, convicted on federal charges of right retiring and police brutality, but the Frank for US case went called decades later Stanley found four witnesses most of family members who had her possible and Spencer talking openly. About the murder Stanley, and I have interviewed these witnesses extensively included Spencer Zone Son named Boo and boost Pardner Edith. who remember Spencer, talking about his role in francs, murder, exactly what I heard you know.
I mean he did it. Outta here is the last one alarm and ass. There was no one else to hers to testify against tallow, and ours really shocked that he said that in front of me. He never setting thing for me before, but he was scared as your it come to his house, and he felt the over there be asked. in two thousand eleven three grand jury recall to look into Frank, Morris's case, but no one day, was handed up debris. Surprise that there was no indictment yeah Yes, I really was Do you remember what I told you when we first started? You only said they weren't going to do nothing ever Mister Hale,. Arthur Leonard Spencer, died in two thousand thirteen and them arrest case was closed by the d o J Civil Rights Division in two thousand
fourteen thankful. Thank the feds blue potential of developing the Spencer is suspect it quickly. They didn't have the thing outlined in her head when I guess the grand jury is reportedly fishing expeditions to try to look at other cases too. So I dont know how seriously they ever to Spencer and if they did take them seriously, I don't understand what we're getting Mr Michel Gilberts play so for now we suspend our conversation on the moral case. A vessel sanction when we ended animals can I want that was frankly. We just went through peace of mind was stand lane I arrive at Michel's place appear on the left. Her father Earnest Gilbert was confidential, informant Jan thirty, who gave
you have the I much of its initial information about the abduction, beating and murder of Henry D and Charles more How big the dog near Michel's, mid forties. Has brown hair with highlights green eyes, pink lipstick and a white teeth? church with a gold owl on the front and she's got three small pomeranian precious. Princess and the one I'm hearing now arrive. Dog named Lily Pearl How are you I'm doing? Remember me see this. All the other groups
I have a bag of the stuff that you gave me when I was here last time so, got the regular eight footage, have all the tape and I've got all the pictures and everything else So I'm also working on a podcast which looks at the case that earnest was was involved in heavily with the and more the process. Still there, the man on air and then all will. This is not the same. Two people it tortured him. Very more for me now deal with One down when you first realise that they're gone, and he said I need you tomorrow that archival about this nice need you to just drop everything you're, something I need to tell you
And I'm like Venier my dad, you Roy Crap, what about an hour ago. Come not and ass. I went over there. Sit down and he had his coffee cup and he was out on the back deck that he had built in hand had workers basin, he's, others things that you just don't know about my wife She's ever know and basically China. Romeo and he that a reporter. I call them from twenty twenty. His name was Harry Philips and he wanted to investigate things that happen when he was in the clan and Like I said over the years, I guess Rowan, of the Clia anybody was an, my daddy new people that were in the clan, wasn't something that we
What about me? I just knew I had now. I guess there he had ban. I can remember, is a six year old us on that the wall. It struck me as the girl was burning, and I asked him and I remember me a little bit girl daddy. Why would you burn the cross and I'll? Never forget that look on his face is like oh god, in eyes, like a video might entail, are in air and Hazel. I will. It's more illuminating Emmy. He was trying to explain it in China. Have adults choice, find the children and not just the one? call Sangita Siobhan Jesus's cross, and I never saw the picture in the house again. It really struck him, and I think he really
okay, Mary, I'm leading this double life, and now I realize it's affecting her. So as far back, that is my very first memory of fathom Ing helm? I guess really began a party to the things that happened, we were, but it wasn't until the late nineteen nineties that give actually spoke to his daughter about what he had done. Ok, What are you talking about and he goes well, there was a martyr and crawled out! I'm asking why? What he's out there is a martyr and he said, There were. Take he adds martyred and he started crying mainly images sobbing and he said Anne
it. I did what I thought was right: is it wasn't right and he I was Whelmd pain, yet would overwarm anybody. I isa there. How are you sure volunteer what the hell are? You tell a man. Gilbert had lived with the secret free, I brought down the client, and I was overwhelmed hurrying. Yet what overwhelm anybody I used to their how luggage of ollinger what the hell are. You tell a man Gilbert, had lived with the secret for years and likely, would have taken it to his grave. Had he not been contacted by that tv producer. Hey so well he's home. If I did not talk, they were gonna go with the story without me talking about and he said, Anne I feel I it was.
He felt like he was caught. You know I have to. I have to tell them or they're just going to go off the wall with whatever they want to go with, and I have no choice he didn't put our ever unease and an inner me and the girls have to suffer for something he wasn't I go said that you wanted to have some peace He ever regretted one minute of what he did, He like seventies, I think he just he wanted to be left alone. Is they also involved doesn't wanted to have some peace life before left, this war or land mine. He did. I found out, he was in the clan up into the light seventies I think he got involved in. It is. Because everybody else was involved, big. We gotta do something because back then everybody was scared. X and the wise got together that it be this big mouth and, I think
He really was like we ve got to preserve our hour dna. What we're a custom I asked, as the kind went off on that hands but I think when it hid him the severity of what people are doing an the? U N, you know, like he told me he said you have these these crazy. What people out there and they they just there is one go kill somebody earnest Gilbert was a leader in a white supremacist group that was at best a free eight have racial equality. He part dissipated in and helped organise events that led to furthering the ideals of white supremacy, helping in the least to fuel violence. But when things turned violent, he chain his mind and big. A paid informant for the FBI bank. What c into the. If we are, I think,
He wanted to do his part and let it go, and I think they kept russian and pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing, and I think he felt dropped him they come at one time they had everything they needed, but they wouldn't stop it He said that it was light. They wanted to prolong it, and I think he became very disgusted with if you wanted to shut this day on. You could but you're not and in I think, then at them from the FBI. Yes, stadium, The claim was because the F b I would stay and providing information is exactly. Why says, he told me that out of his mouth, and then with people their psychotic really crazy that you do remain closed to without letting them know. That you're going behind your back. could. You know they'll kill you,
don't feel your family and you know that if they can beat somebody, doubt the way they did more than one harm. It was, it's not gonna, be a nice killing him. You see your children may interpret that one additional incentives that the deal work is that he informed about, and nineteen sixty four It was August early August sixty four. I talk to an FBI agent who live in matters of the home and told him what he had heard irony or them. Troubling point is that the information he gave. Actually never got to. person who could have made a difference in the case of that time, according to Mississippi Highway Safety, patrol officer, Gwynn call who was and, if the lead, Mississippi investigators on the DE more case, the FBI, ever told him. The information they had gathered from Gilbert Oh, this information may have never found its way to district attorney, Lennox Foreman, who could have used it
Call a grand jury regard. Us Gilberts information was ruled inadmissible in the two thousand seven trial of James Ford Seal because they wanted to protect Your dad's identity, the F b I needed to protect their contractual informant an He found no peace, it was like all the he tried to do was debated and then, when you finally thank you free from it. here come some asshole with a camera. Wonder in two thousand, when the ABC documentary came out. There was hope that this It would be a trial in this your case, but do you S attorney at the time bride Pike decided there wasn't enough evidence and they didn't bring your dad in and they didn't actually go forward the case. So how did your dad reactor that, after coming public have here, I will only take effect. Same fuckin shit over an area in
I therefore very often said when he said it is discussed, is that all their down a star in the ship pot? John? star everybody up again and they're not going to do anything about it. I know this all happen. He. There. Certainly changed about him. He became very distant. You know very with He withdrew within herself I just want you to know that he was not a monster and, he tried to do what he thought was right and Adele. Think he ever felt like you did enough. So your mom, knew all this stuff tat. She must have now because his enemies- and so did you- Hocker confront your mom about that. My mother, and I were like night, nay, hours our a lot closer, more power.
then she knew a lot of what went on, but She never really talk about much. I don't think She really he let her all the way and of what he was involved in and how if he was involved in it. I really doubt he dandy I ended up haven't having committed. He had to Mantua push much. Stress disorder, I am here horribly or within a family on a trailer moved it next to their house, be closer I was well crown five acres of swill grounds, shot them when I can the house- were beaten on the door Talkin all kind of gibberish, and I want daddy, okay calm down and we can go outside and scare the girls and they just got the point. He was dangerous. He didn't know he was,
His miles down, but he was still afraid or something Is he always had gone? Gilbert may not have been deemed mentally fit to testify, and this was. confirmed in discussions with officials. During my investigation of the d more case Here's the truth. Everybody was evil A lot of people live in the midst of evil. Brown, my computer to show Michel the digital copies are made of her fathers, eight millimeter films and audio. He recorded at clan gatherings, I suspect, Gilbert is making at least some of these recordings with the intense of sharing them with the FBI, since there are several shots of licence plates and clansmen with their masks off
it was pretty high unemployment. and another, the emperor Whizzer at one time, and then he was the brain cycles, horror, the hell that was a real plan, dungeons and dragons, or was he in life Some are always now Jackson some arise, there saw him, majority are given off jack. Meaning Myron Wayne Jack Seal James, Lord seals, older brother Jack, was direct fully involved in the murder of de in more and he His wife were also close friends of earnest, Gilbert, theirs, galaxies and looks like he's standing next to a police officer right now, I am applying today more than ever, no
the plan for the purpose of creating find my way back I reminded you favour the robot. Oh, my god, I remain to be a plan momentarily sums. Wikis rationally that's that's him. Tat was his way:
so we're here. Ten years after the FBI and Harbour justice, look at civil rights cases and expand on the work that Jerry and others, and myself had done up to that point, and the closest with com is the moral case. I think, and it's got nowhere. Suspects is dead and you have just talked about all the reasons why they should have done it didn't do and also, I think, some of the people in the grand jury work Lop rating in a way that would have been conducive to moving forward. Perhaps, and now we ve got a situation where the window of opportunity for finding actual justice with real perpetrators is almost all that gone in any of these cases. What's the next thing like? Why are we doing? Because we are still trying to tell the story of history learning the history and what actually happened in writing. History is the only thing we have to do and as what we have to do, because we have to get every piece of information, we can find an answer to the story. It is the understanding of what happened and it's it's important and we still may run into something you never know I found it reveals us proof you witness, and no one has time to before, so how many cases have been closed after paper review and no further work which we have no. We are still to this day getting heavenly redirected documents even on cases that are closed and it still takes forever to get a case, even if its close people like us, who are actually working everyday trying to figure out, if put those things, will figure out something to do with it. To me they appear. Justice are almost negligence by not doing everything within their power to release those right away totally unredeemed they could do. I agree why don't they are? They are afraid that people like us are gonna find their mistakes, because we call em out when we see you been somewhat critical. Thank the bureau was aggressive and I think they moved slowly and in each of the cases where justice has looked into these civil rights era, murderers and and hasn't move forward, which is the majority they sent a letter to the family and then those letters they give exact reasons why they can move forward and they had ten years to do this stuff. In ten years later we have lots of families saw these cases brought up again. They had real really of those emotions again. Think about that again, not sleep about it, and if you're, a government agency and you're going to ask people, tell people that you're going to buy and do these cases it's me is sadly not to give it one hundred percent.
The majority of stories from the civil rights era have yet to be told and the Ex and of the repercussions decades later to be fully understood. The forgotten victim vastly outnumber the official government roster men. And women threatened, beaten, murdered and disappeared reports the: U S, attorney general civil rights Division following the passing of the Emmett till act in two thousand eight say there: we at least two hundred and thirteen cold cases involving a hundred and twenty six murdered victims from the civil rights era. Some of those hundred twenty six victim saw Justice Manchester wait Henry in Charles Moore and all so Jimmy Lee Jackson, Jackson, was murdered during the famous voting rights marches in so my Alabama in nineteen. Sixty five his car our former state Trooper James Bond Fowler
indicted by Alabama, is only african american district attorney in two thousand and seven and success they'll be prosecuted in state court prosecutors brought the case in large part because of the reporting of John Fleming. Journalists that the Amnesty star in Alabama, but yeah and success in the courtroom. Finding that Ruth and memorialize in the victims of white supremacy is possibly even more important to me. I would love to bring my boys and listen to the store. Come from you guys back at you his cabin with Brian Bro. I understand even the south, but as well as history to spend half a day hearing all the latter? We could do that. I'm glad to hear this does offer pieces.
if you didn't want to put a little plaque or something out front, you could put something inside just for people that state here to know all you know. I'm a woman only get a book and no more about it. For my guess is this: no no everything's going. We get back on the ATV. I'm glad off of adopting a lot about, though about here about right, arising and Brian agrees to make a plaque memorialize in chess white at the farm. But now I can't go We made here and Rachel DAWN,
as a lawyer republican mania about black eye of that area, the progressive way, because nobody else currently under way may God willing you're driving. Where did you will also felt that there was a patch of? There was meant to be that we are looking yeah You have been listening to season three epilogue these in four of escape s way that is coming Debbie. very twenty eighteen.
Subscribed now to make sure you don't miss a single update or episode someone know something is hosted, written and produced by David Region The series is mixed by sessile Fernandez and produced by Chris Oak. Steph camp are more damage. Units Kim an executive producer, Irish New Ronnie, our theme. Song is terrorized by Willy King now you're talking about other you're talking about Rob Anti around all day. Oh my day
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Transcript generated on 2020-01-13.