David speaks with the woman who discovered Kerrie's body to learn about the crime scene and meets with the police officer currently in charge of Kerrie's case.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This is a CBC podcast. The following problem an contains, mature, subject matter. Listener discretion is advised, you are listening to someone know something from CBC part casts in season five data region travels north to Thomson Manitoba to investigate nineteen. Eighty six murder of carry brown. This is episode to dead end. Heading up, hoarded towards the flying J Tracker gas station out here on the outskirts of Winnipeg aligning our flying J.
Great Dodge truck. I think I see a great dodge truck. That's gotta be her there alone either asked me down. A covert is parked in empty lanes reserved for eighteen wheelers. Some distance from the truck stop traffic on the Trans Canada Highway blurs by beside us and the place smells of diesel and prairie when you get it. Ok, thank you. So much for doing donors on a long haul, trucker herself and knows these sorts of places well she's in a light, blue, he heard wearing a necklace with what look like to gold, feathers attached, white hair, eyes already read with tears and she's missing.
Finger from a mishaps. She had while unloading a truck as obsolete. Every thumb I do my writing is terrible. I look like a the three year old index finger. I lost ninety six. I got into tracking, because I was always afraid to be alone. I do the word. Things happen in Thompson. I had to leave and I guess I got into jar came just as a way to cope. That's interesting, yeah! Well, if you're very yourself at work, great It does distracts you forever, while we king, but we got two to three months at a time where home for two or three days and gone along the way we work, so I'm very lucky to have found. You I was gonna, says she had to move away from Thomson lose yourself and the truckers life because of the trauma. From a discovery she made one cold October morning
in nineteen. Eighty six tell me what happened on that day we went out riding a bunch of us, went riding and we come off to state. Road? We went up around the grave which is a place right, but Don you don't have much else, and we were coming back and urban years gone up to the earth, and I looked at one Laney, an ice at genoa, joy and I said I'd like to go a little further. I think I'll go The next rode down in them will come up and then I ll go in. She said I ll go with you and we were right. Talk can and also their horses start fussing and they were a lot of my horse was my best friend. I knew something was wrong. I didn't know what it was all sudden Joanne said what is that go why she goes. There is at a man. I can and I go to stop. Could I you wait here, because she had a green oars and I went up.
To see what I can do and I check for a pulse on her ankle. I checked on her wrist none. Up to do by the neck, and then I noticed the head, and that was it. She was wearing now black and pink leopard print outfit. She had on the cleanest. What socks I ever saw She was laying on turn out to be a jacket, shit, on one hand down. In the other hand, up when I first found her She everything, but the head was down little bed. It didn't look so bad, but once I got up, then you could see the face was smashed and Peter they head was beaten.
You could see lots, I could tell the one armed was obviously broken just the way it was laying the one that was up her clothes were very clean. You would not expect them they're very clean, very nice. She don't walk in there. Somebody took put her there, I talked her the whole time, so she deserved respect. I talk to her and I was so angry and once I know she was gone, I say look I'm gonna go get help. I hate to leave you, but I'm gonna go get help and I said I'm I'm so sorry. This has happened, you of sea they pay and that was it bad thing to see, because I feel like a letter d, guy doktor. So you talk to her.
Along too. I talked her for a long time or ten minutes ya. I just our member calendar, I dont know, we could do this do. Why would they do this to you don't deserve this, I'm so sorry. You know why I cried. I data everything I just. I just felt that bad. I just wanted to computers. You can't leaned down and give her a hug. You can't do nothin like that. I know enough about that. You can't do that. You can't touch her. I touched her it with two fingers and three play This is why I had all my fingers in, but I touched her two fingers in three places and night. I knew- and I just talked to her- I don't know how, when she's already gone, Does it really makes sense what you're thinking, but you just have to try and deal. What did the best you can and then before I left, I remember thinking
This is really hard, but he's gonna be important, so I had to stand up and just stand back and look at her from head to toe. I try remember all the details. I could because I knew what was going to be important later, I asked Donna what happened next, so I stood up in July. Is she then- and I said well- we're gonna go slow, back to the yard and will handle this and her horse took off I d jumper mine and go catch her well by the I'm we caught her. It's gibberish, My children will and I just went back to the earth. We both dead on again run which is never good way. New potential we did- and I just went downhill from there
the horror stories that people have told her family that aren't even true are just heartbreaking. How could people see that and what were they say they were saying she was naked. She was not. I found I know they said that they had stick shoved in her mouth in upper private parked in whatever. How can you tell us what the clothes on in all she wasn't naked? she was not. I do believe they done things to her and then probably redressed her, but she was not naked. If she where's naked. She was the same age as my daughter. I would have taken my jacket off and covered her at least right, I know I found her, I know I tried to help her. I know what people did to her. I know that I'm scared, you know you change, you change forever
You do things are never, and did you see anything else left behind by the people who left carry there? Did you see anything else, Somebody got stuck out there, There was some stuff lay in their matter. Whatever Did you see the matter? Just read about it later? No, no! I seen it received a goin end. Could somebody got stuck them without whats immediate doing come down this road? and where did they get stuck right near carry? It was further down its Margie of care. So that's why, by tat there were things we notice, but mostly the horses noticed first, you know my course never want to go down that road again. But when I come up, I went around because I knew I didn't want to destroy evidence when those cops come up
I was given a male left right and centre. They sent me back to my vehicle. I never saw like idiots in my life or whether there are just walking up everywhere knew enough to go wrong, not destroy avalanche, not the way they were not the way they were. One gun, copper take another one passed out like it was. It was just ridiculous and then they they ve proved ultimately nothing. How can you have all other things available to you today and not be able to solve the they came from seeing as she says, police trampling evidence at the scene, along with the upheaval covering carry them earning police has altered Donna forever. I dont know Our family David? I mean
I barely made it. I tell my two youngest kids. I feel sorry for them. They dont know the best pardon me I lost at tat date. I dont know how family handle said funny, thirty years later, catch the or hurt like thirty. How can these people they put yourselves? what happened after police arrived on, the scene was evidence properly gathered, and where did it go? After that? Where does the case stand now? Over thirty years after carries murder,.
Hello, general. Thank you very much. I'm here at our C m p D division headquarters in when a peg to see cons well Jana tomorrow, but they require a media person to be present while interviewing officers. Are you terrorist seal? Is that person in a grey cardigan Black Skirt and shoulder like they're nice to meet. You oh nice, to meet you do as taller wearing black dress outfit also, shoulder length. Brown hair Trevor speaks come, probably about China, and I know that she tried to keep in touch with the browns from time to time. Sorry came early. I thought I could now some more time. Thank you
Are you both going to speak My name's constable Jana a marrow I'm with the division historical case unit in when Peg Manitoba and were here at division headquarters in Winnipeg. Sword of small start with the basics was tell me what's. Your role is on the case now how you ve held carriage of the case, the history of the case, I guess I basically became involved in the investigation over five years ago. It is a file that is with our historical case unit and has been for for quite some time, but through the years were in the process of modernizing our investigations by a switch over into an electronic database and just making sure that all of our investigations are consistent. So this was one of the files that I got assigned when I started in the EU.
And I dont know when it originally came to the historical Casey on it, because it is a thirty, you're old investigations, and by the time I started with cold case it had already been there riverbed. Is it true this case is the largest case. It largest and volume volume. Our sympathy as an Manitoba volume at one and the file. How biggest file its massive? It's that forty five bankers boxes over fourteen thousand documents. Numerous, I can't even count. How many people are. I mean there's a number of things like twenty five hundred people are listed on the investigation, but that would include, like investigator, witnesses and just names.
Have come up through the years on the file. A lot of people that have worked on it were very passionate about this investigation. Given the circumstances and behind what happened to carry it's just a sad set of circumstances. So tell me the known facts of the case, but the police know school broke out at around three thirty that day and then She came home, had supper with her family and then she left her house around seven o clock. She went to place called Thomson. Billiards is from what we were told shoes on foot, so she picked up at her house by two. Friends and went on foot, and then she ended up at the House Party, which was where she is for the majority of the evening, so there is probably no twenty Before ash, approximately twenty four people at the party, guys and girls, and for Most part. It was a good night meroz outline of the, evening is similar to what we ve heard from others. The ex boyfriend comes recently broke up
Erin Nicole decide to leave so they started up the basement. Stairs Nicole goes back in for her purse when coal and go back upstairs carry wasn't there and carries, is never seen again forward to the next day Friday October, seventeenth, nineteen, eighty six, then at four o clock heard had called the r c m p say that she was missing and they were unable to locate her for four o clock in the afternoon. So posters and things like that weren't going up until afternoon of the Friday. Would you say I would say that so the search continued for her there was radio broadcasts put out like saying that she was missing. They were unable to locate her. And then, on Saturday afternoon, shortly after two p m, we are simply was contacted by two people that came across what they believe was body. What kind of remote wooded area just north of Thompson
and some members responded immediately to the scene and started processing it from there. Eventually, like the corner, was calm to confirm that they could move the body and then the body was that of a female, but they didn't know four out of here certainty: who was the transport in her body to Thompson Hospital? and eventually her father was brought in to help identifier and reports of air mattress being found and rubber mats, and things like that, in relation to wear her body was located a savage mean I won't get into those specifics, but I mean I know that I've seen tv, video, that shows information and pictures of items. Found at the crime scene. Would we do that?
in this day and age. Probably not, but I mean everybody please no change through the ears and how we deal with things and Helen. What information we give up to the public. So would you say that you have all those items and senior evidence? Oh yeah departments, so anything that was found on the scene is still in evidence, police in charge of cold case investigations are trained to be short on detail at their discretion and content, Oh, a marrow is not exceptional. In this information kept her too public sphere is sometimes called hold back, and the theory is that holding information back can assist if case move toward an arrest finding the light of a court room if people he's keep evidence that might only be known by those present at a murder scene. That evidence can then be brought. Forward and leverage untarnished by their rumour mill of public conversation,
however, carries unsolved. Murder is passed the thirty year Mark family is aid, are dying and me and the earthly MP. How much longer should things be held back? especially information that has already been released and other media reports over the past decades, and you tell me about the DNA found at the scene and how many individuals were involved and that now I can't and was a dna fallacy there wasn't theirs. I mean in DNA helps us focus investigation. It does, and I don't think it's a secret out there- that we have collected quite a few consent samples of dna from various individuals, either somehow associated to carry are poor. People thought might have been possibly involved in her homicide
spin confirmed to me that our c m p believe multiple people were involved in carries murder It has been reported that Arcy MP of collected at least two different male dna samples from the crime scene. You collect dna because you must have something to compare it to the usual, but as he is, ok this murder happened before dna testing was even out there. So our friend the unit at that I'm when they analyze the scene, they actually do some forward thing and they were able to do some things that looking into the future, probably assisted a great deal on the investigation, without even knowing that they did so was fairly violent attack and she had been sexually assaulted and bludgeoned, and what kind of a profile has our simply developed? A boat?
that kind of attack or the people, their persons that might have been involved. In this I mean we ve had contact with behavioral sciences and that's who will do those type of profiles as far specific specific. Back in the investigation at this point in time we can link or suspect who was still bast. I mean we're still looking for answers. It said thirty year old homicide where We don't have anybody charged or convicted charged and convicted of her murder. So now One was charged and convicted of her murder. This correction is important because There was someone charged and they had a bright us back. They had a price has taken the beginning rather than a hundred Sumner on thirty October. Twenty third Nineteen. Eighty six, just five days after carries body, was discovered. A twenty two years
Thompson resident by the name of Patrick Harris Burton Sumner was charged with first degree murder. He was arrested rather quickly. It was very, very fast. Did you ever talk to Patrick Sumner before Carry was murdered? Know I'd, know our after Harry was murdered. I parliament too, scared you. There was a long suspect lists, but they never single din on anyone like they did on some there Sumner was arrested. So then, all that kind of finger pointing stuff died down yacht summer was the only name in pure and simple in the public eye, although there everybody that I've talked to so far, about. The carry brown case has had plenty to say about Patrick Sumner and even some people you haven't heard from yet pretty. Well, gotten, God that that will work in some learn thought we had been working oddball
a preliminary hearing was held in February, one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven featuring many of carries friends from the party that night, along with witnesses, many of whom I intend to interview, but this is a cold case and as constable Jenna, a marrow said before There was no conviction of Patrick Sumner, just an arrest and a preliminary hearing. Investigators at the time and the prosecutor at the time felt that there was enough evidence to proceed and they charged him with. First remark: at the time and it went through a premium and the judge at the time said there was enough to proceed to a trial with the evidence that had been presented after a preliminary hearing. Provincial court judge
pause. Newcomb decided that there was not enough evidence to proceed to trial and since that time, since the February, one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven prelim has there been any information such as deer, that is proven one way or the other, and they are stampede mine that Patrick Summer was not involved. Look incentive for earth that I'm Kimberly, narrowed down or suspect pool. I would say that it still quite fast at this point in time, so I can't say at this time whether anybody really has been eliminated so butter is then the boy I would say still anybody is pretty- is pretty much in the pool that was brought up as being part of the investigation, Why was he focused on that information that I think you'll be able to find out it's not an area, though, that I'm willing to enter into, pass
tricks Sumner will obviously be a major focus for me. I know that year Later Arcy MP conducted DNA tests on many people and Thomson and area one would assume. Sumner had been tested, but he still in the pool of suspects according to Jana lots to find out the fact that there was a preliminary hearing should be helpful, since it will lay out in public documents, much of the maid ever its police may have had not only against Sumner, but about the surrounding case. Why did play? its focus on Sumner, and why was that
case against him dropped at the time. It would be really awful is if I can get the prelim document, because it's a public document, if I could get that that would help me- and I wouldn't have to ask you all those questions- is it possible to get to play? I honestly don't know if I dont believe we have it orally. Even the police, somebody's gotta have carried out lookin to look into it as well, because it would be really valuable, but it's nice to have a document. It's nice to have something like that, and that's the thing that this investigation that is unique as it it did go to prison. So there is a lot of information there regarding urgent mothers by memory of individuals or through some sort of document. I believe you planning on going and talking to him so great and sun, which will be tried
yeah I'll, definitely be trying to speak to Patrick Sumner, but not for learning as much as I can from as many people as possible. I'd really like to speak to some of the r c m p members who were investigating the case. Said the time, including the two original led investigators Dennis healed and John Toast. Would it be possible to talk to Dennis healed or John Toaster? No so you're the lead and that's how you guys would work. And so are they allow to talk to me. Even if I tried to talk to them
There's some are simply rule. It says you not love to talk about things after you retire or do you know where I think one of them still working? Ok, ok, I may try to contact them anyway, see what happens to be open about that and looking back at the fire, you confident as an investigated at the evidence at the very beginning of the inquest was handled properly yeah I dont have any concerns over. That has never been any issue with that near my, in my mind, I'd never now. I know it's not my job to question what they did either. Have. There been advances and police in through the years. Absolutely there happen, but no, I dont see something faded did very well. Have you re interviewed people in this case extensively orient spend a whole lot of time region of young people. If new information,
came in than yes, we would. A lot of people have been some people I should say, have been interviewed multiple times worse prior to me getting involved in the investigation and sometimes That is always the best thing like the memories may have changed through time or they may have got information through someone else and have taken it on a throne memory. A marrow says she hasn't spent much time re interviewing and Rico. Instituting memories can be problematic but sometimes ray interviewing can yield fruitful results like one almost more, and I went back to talk to Clansmen Charles Edwards, four or five times in Mississippi. But Constable America has been active on carries case in other ways on October sixteenth, whose hasn't sixteen the thirtieth anniversary of carries murder. The Manitoba Earthy MP launched a social media campaign. Sending
had a series of tweets and Facebook posts written and carries voice, as the fifteen year old would have made her way throughout her final day and the twitter campaign it. What was intention with it would happen carry took over. They are simply Manitoba Twitter and Facebook pages the stay she was alive, so we were able to. Detail the events of her last day? What she did that day up until the point she went to the party and then nobody's are we got quite a bit of feedback from quite a few Tipp? So it was good how many types of your garden today in total down this file. I don't even think I could venture gas. There have been times on like this murder happened last week, you'll get numerous here. Within a couple of a period of time, and sometimes you don't even ever get that unhappy
that happened a month prior, we ve had us yeah I'd, say a significant amount of chips come in on this investigation, so hundreds thousands doesnt hundreds at least get Africa good for now, but I can come back right. I can at least ask more questions Nick. I will not tell me the answers, but thanks for him,
to your time, Trevor contact agenda marrow after my meeting, so I sent a message to the agenda in order to get that agenda. We must but something new out there, something new that has never been put out there before something that they ve been keeping close to the best as they like to say for over thirty years now, and, as I said earlier in my message very said, look where had keeping a close to the best gotten us up to now Joe. I really wants to encourage her to give us something to put something you, oh there
Dave has gone, we ready to rock and roll. I am ready to go fishing off my they re no problem and finish your bagel back and Thompson. I mean Trevor again at his place. Where does he upstairs? You sleep, you know is actually to be later on that I imagine it won't item
don't hurt him leather together. After breakfast, we make our way out to my rental Suv straight anyway, as one here in parliament to stand up for an orator oil, texting, Bunny, Jack Jack, the raven, and it was a nice car. I heard a gm squawking there is causing so many and restarting Nazi here that I stand their mates. That's Jack economic sector After the ravens fly off, I talk to Trevor a bit about the earthy MP and ask him about his recollections of the police investigation. Do you remember the time hearing our thinking
anything about police and their investigation. Nerdy. The techniques in the beginning of the investigation are we now because we really do know they had until the preliminary hearing. They were very quiet about what they had gathered in what they had other than they were very quick to. Let us know that put some. It was the man. I do know that at the moment that they arrest him, it was a we're fucked up it experience because they had not nothing physical tie him to the crime scene. I know that you have to look at all. The circumstantial evidence ends ass. We couldn't dig up that transcript day, not yet I did ass, they are simply for it. They said they're gonna help help try to find it. You think they actually kept a copy. There they say over forty five boxes of material, so yeah, the Sumner prelim is important and I'm looking into other ways to find the documents outside of the r c m p.
There is still a lot of case ground to cover in person. While I'm here and Thomson Trevor agrees to give tour of the town and of October, nineteen, eighty six when they want to start a dogs or house. Why don't we scholar, trip bright pro Let's go to the place where carry was at the party. It's your child, ok I'll stay! I enjoy
I am not a child, a gas. I know that three Tommy, along as ago users variety record tears eleven months off the wagon. Oh yeah. I have been silver now, my last crack at it was twenty twenty ten I make. No apologies Dave. I spoke with a deadly hosting with light of Russian. It gets me a bed and I go with my day otherwise shitty eyes. I do have alcoholism, which is disease. I know it and I do have depression and I'm pretty sure David. I have undiagnosed PTSD other than that unhealthy. Rather than those things right. Here's throat dogs will do not far from the corner. I turn remember
There's a lot interpreter: driveway LAW Ongoloo, wait whose final panel, citing so have you now To look at these houses, he look at the house and you look for some clue. How long was the driveway? How long did you have to walk in that light, dusting of snow than a core described, and where did she get picked up because she was picked up? It's no. The people did she have recognition or feel she had familiarity with those people either. She willingly got into the vehicle
or she was taken into the vehicle and whether that happened right at the end, the driveway or not is unknown, but I suspect there would be close to the house where she was taken from and see what happens in the cause, which is where a block away and I'll be honoured. Nicole's old address where carry was supposed to have stayed over that night and may have been walking to when she disappeared was at three spoonbill crescent. I set the gps to find the route, but it turns out to be so close to dogs, house its unnecessary. We can leave here and let's go to three spoonbill. See how far away that it's not like- I said I don't know where she was headed her, where she thought she was headed issue
she could have inherited Nicole's, but if she was going to Nicole's one at this rate on the core comes out right four wheel drive us to ride on the streets area powerful that's good, all permafrost Dave, so there we go and there's pinto so returned left on Tinto, it's right there. You can actually see the house from here. You see the host from westward I would say that was like a two minute walk one solid block. No more to write their deserves. That's it. It is in credibly short distance from Doug's House tuna cause just a couple of blocks and between. Them more of our main drive known as westward. Now she had like me,
That's an day with my disease, I've Nightline us. I cannot see in the dark right, Niccolo, Pia my mom. How did my sister no she didn't have this disease had terrible night vision. So I can tell I see her stick into areas with light as in streets which would make hence, from that has to this house: you'd have street lights all along the way. I was on nineteen sandpaper that night my buddy Jerry's place redoing at nineteen sandpiper drinking were drinking Trevor, hasn't yet told me what happened to him that day hearing about today's events from multiple points of view
helps me to gain a fuller perspective on all the moving parts. While I would have his skull that data Thursday great eleven, I was so, I would have gotten around four o clock and carry was home said remember she was getting ready to go out and after supper, I remember sitting in the living room and talking to carry, and yet are outfit on that. You order that night it was around five hundred and thirty, and I remember the belt that you had around her waist. I could hear a jangling and I I looked at it. So that's SS club for the Rhonda tenant came to pick her up and then they left. That was last time. I ever saw her and I think, by this time in the day I figured out what we were doing. My friends and I- and we decided at some point I'll, say by seven- that we were going to stay,
I said you're not go out cuz. We are considering going out to the stables to drink according to Trevor kids used to drink and hang out in the area at the end of the dead end stable road near where Carrie was found. One of the details that is always stuck with him and now me that he was going to party there with friends that same night, but decided not to worry cosgrove of friends. I do their only about six or seven of us there that night, just dad drink and beers and listening to music, then we all had home and I get home about thereon noon on Friday.
There's no school, and so sooner is we're on a Thursday, but either one of US carrier myself irrational school. That Friday and phone call start to come first Rhonda. I want to believe- and of course I'm telling you what cares. I hear she spent the night in the calls disaster to tell my parents who is doing and that then Nicole, calls and she's asking for carrying out research was at your house because no she's, not with me not here when I got here, she wasn't here and we must not get no one knows or carriers. What timing was. Maybe one o clock. Twelve thirty on the Friday, but I know they were in touch with the place pretty quickly. Wanna say round three: three thirty they were in our house. Getting a description of a carry was wearing a pitcher of carry Friday night. We didn't sleep, none of us and
facing those night becomes morning, still know nothing from the police people out looking physically in cars and stuff. I remember that, and my next memory, of course, is the the knock at the door at three o clock and its sprite landmark and darling horn and they came to the door and they re Trevor in your carries brother eight and outline the rights they found a body, the stables and we can't get near it. You need to come out there, some to that effect and unlike candidate. Why are you telling me this kind of thinking and as I'm standing there with them at the door?
phone rings and I don't move. I heard ringing upstairs made answer him a moment. S room and I hear my dad's pick it up and I don't hear made at talking here in saying yeah just affirming what's being said to him and then he hang it up. I hear the hang up and he comes to the top of our stairs and I'm at the bottom of the stairs and he looks Dounia looking up at him and says: that's my little girl. I remember this feeling just Norway Kebby thought the cabin these up? I'm going out there we're going out there now, and so I jump in their truck upon hearing the news, traverse first instinct was too
go to the scene to prove to himself but it wasn't his sister. Silent waves tells the confronting true story of twenty six year old Raquel, o Brien ass. She had comes to liberate herself from the trauma of childhood sexual abuse and a father with a dark secret. The seven parts Greece includes raw and brutally honest conversations between Raquel and her family as they discuss their past for the first time. What emerged was a much larger, story here, silent waves at silent waves, podcast dot com or wherever you get your podcast okay, so we're gonna go to the site. The power line near the horse, stables where carry was found Willie,
the sight of the party were carry was last seen and drive down. Thompsons main drag mystery Lake Road, mostly a highway, fuel with a walmart on one side and Laura is downtown sector. On the other. We come to us colorful statues of wolves and an old Bush flow plain, well it to the top of a metal stanchion part of a hiking tray. Around Thomson, where bears are sometimes seen and then we cross a bridge over the burnt would river. The branch of the very wet resolved at all. I told you to stay. Carry was absolutely petrified of bridges of this bridge this on that's what specifically the burnt would dream listen the larger Nelson River system and then beyond. Two Hudson Bay, the local restaurant called Popeye's on the other side
Papa she used to come aeroplanes. You done her head down in the back seat, so we're over the bridge, according the people who knew her carry was so afraid of the bridge she would have now her willingly crossed it without someone she trusted- so we're coming up cemetery road here. The greedy partners hurt your past but greedy park, which is actually a camp ground and then Emma Road? We drive around along band gravel rode on our left leads toward the stables, but if we continue along this highway, we drive by the hydro line where carry was found, but we can't go in that way. The time could they not of his turn highway. There's a ditch four wheel drive. Maybe you need some serious four wheel drive to do thy father. How into that did it was pretty steep? Maybe stupidity I mean it's not super deep out. Why do it? If you knew you get it, you haven't access roads,
so we're going left on the access road now down toward the stables, so we're heading up towards the stable road and there's obviously horses around and wrote apples make great hockey pucks I can see why Trevor says that this area was once used as a party spot close to. But somehow instantly remote and not subject to any neighbourly noise restriction, know ST lights Nobody really had reason to come down this road pass. The stables because less a kilometer later it dead, ends right now,
here the hydro line. He wasn't. I don't like it is now back. Then, although you that nobody was dumping shadowed here like they are no so returned to the right, we'll head up toward the power line area, so this area is known as Mr Relate is, which is almost metaphorical at this point, as were driving than just thinking. This can't be happening what's going on here and stop when we get out of his truck and there's cops all over the place and they ve got it takes off. You can see the yellow tape born from side to side. On the hydro languished. I could see that much and I, as I crossed towards I, was greeted by a big cop and his son. Were you going, I said, I'd need to go and see that body. I think that's my sister and there she said son. You can't go in there the crime scene. Some to that effect, I was in a surreal place. They were going to. Let me go any further, so I've got that sense and
I turned around and I I went back to the truck and I wanted to talk to someone to talk to the personal founder anyone that saw her and we found one if it was Donna that I talk to whomever I found. I start asking questions asked which you wearing a Pittsburgh Penguins jacket, said no said: did she a blonde hair No, that's not her. So I said it's not her. My mind's eye, I'm in visiting what you should look like if this crime scenery on going backwards. No, no, no reason. I know now ask yourself: she was wearing your jacket and the hair was mounted a blood whether it didn't work. Yonder after some convincing and the help of Travers Phone call, the air Sea and peace send me some of the original crime scene, photos that were taken that day I agreed to describe,
but I see, but that we cannot publish them. I dread the ear They came in, but I have to look, thankfully carries. Body is not present in any of them, until now. These photos have not been reported on in much detail so this is the harder line here. Hydrogen the first photo a wide shot, shows a clearing about twenty five meters across a corridor for the hydro lines through the black, spruce, birch and trembling aspen on either. Side in the mid ground on the left? Next to one of sir we're all single wooden hydro pause, stretching off in the distance. A police officer points to the right indicating where carries body was found on the others,
side of the clearing next to a muddy roadway that stretches off into the distance Ok, so are you come over what your garbage their Trevor and I have now stopped in front of where the rough hydro roadway begins today. The hydro clearing is a tangle of cottonwood, grasses and fireweed, and people of dumped old tvs, bed springs and dry. While here, a rotten, puce, colored coach sits upright next to where I walk in holding Travers elbow to guide him here. Come on the side of my love, my decide here, yet
back in the day, or this was all clear like right through you could see right through to the highway. There are no trees of anything in here. There's a hydra for here, so we just go up under this tree. Duck duck duck, ok, lift her feet. I was only all I ask for the coordinates and I was only told us about a quarter of the way in that backroom Donna told me that she left flowers here really ass, though there may be some dead flowers at the exact site, see we're gonna, remember, saying there? She found her down a covert, told me that she had recently visited the scene herself and left a bouquet of flowers, so, at the time somewhere along this road is where the vehicle had trouble getting out. They got stuck.
The next hour C m. P photos are taken much closer to the spot where carry was found and focus more on the roadway or more accurately, the tracks that were the roadway at the time in one of the tracks made by a vehicle or vehicles that clearly sank into the mud as they drove there's a blue and red blow up rubber air mattress the car and used in the seventies and eighties for camping or floating the blue on one side and read on the other is made up of a fabric stretched and formed over the rubber There's a small brand symbol and white paint on one corner that I can't quite make out, because the photo isn't high enough resolution. The mattresses deflated covered in mud into brie and folded over on itself. Some broken branches between about five and thirteen centimeters in diameter have been
damned underneath it and placed there for traction. Somebody was using the air, mattress and branches to try to free their vehicle from the mud and left behind near by and another rat. Another photo shows a squares, black rubber or vinyl floor mad from a vehicle used in a similar manner. It seems to me that the mat and mattress were left by the people there carry, but that cannot be said for certain. I don't remember the mattress or the karma ever being brought forth as evidence at the preliminary hearing. They couldn't link at the Sondra. That's why I guarantee it. That's why they never introduced because they could not. It didn't make sense that he would have that I'd like to put some questions about the air mattress and floor math and other evidence to the lead investigators at the time Dennis healed and John Toast.
If they I'll talk to me. Ok and another high step here, we're going into some mud, gruesome mercy there is a bit money here. They can see that this might have been a place where someone good get stuck actually say. I can feel the soft moderates really wants to sink here. Other police photographs still closer give important clues as to what may have transpired at the actual seen one shows a jacket carries New Pittsburgh, penguins jacket, on the ground in the woods. The other shows one of carry shoes on the ground operate with laces still tied in a different location than the jacket, to me, this shows that carry was out of the vehicle at the muddy roadway, but also at these locations. In the woods. Her Jack off suggests a struggle, perhaps, as she is grab from behind.
While running away and the jacket comes off. Hearst all tied. Shoe comes off as she has dragged or as she cross I think it must have been right around right around here. I think that she was a hydra line. I know that there is a big branch here. Do high step. For this, the next series of photo show branches or splintered fragments of branches that appear to be taken, from the same or similar source as the ones shoved under the air mattress. But these branches Five to nine centimeters in diameter in the photo have broken into pieces and are covered in blood. The branches would have broken
thrown off these pieces as they were swung and then violently impacted their target likely carry the place where I believe she was found- shows bloody ground and grass on one side of the shot with the bloody pieces also visible at all. And I don't like violence against people, but I hold us vessel dark place in my soul for the fuckers. That did this to my sister and I want to say do what I want to do to them are very bad things one close crop photo shows possibly one of the most important images here reported on in detail for the first time, A single shoe imprint in my next to us,
six inch plastic police. Rumour sat beside it for scale. This would likely be the imprint of one of the perpetrators. The imprint is very clear. Kind of the soul, but shows almost no he'll suggesting that the person may have been pushing the vehicle design? and then the bottom is indicative of a basketball or court shoe, showing a tight zigzag, herring, bone pattern and actions centric circle under the area where the ball of foot would be circle is called a pivot point and from our research the shoe looks like an Adidas brand sold between one thousand nine hundred and eighty three and one thousand nine hundred and eighty six known as the Concorde or the Centeno Based on what we can see. The size is estimated to be at least an eight or nine men's, but since the heel is difficult to make out, the actual size could be larger, although it is sometimes done in the course of police investigations estimating.
Eight using shoe size, isn't a precise science we're standing right where these photos were taken and it's still muddy in this particular area of the road. Two old rusty beds bring us here a tree here, that's been cut off with a saw. There's a part of the trunk was cut right off looks like by a swede saw a long time ago the Raven coming Tibet. It was called, I'm here. Right now, in a freak July cool days, you can get a sense. Maybe it would have been like out there that night Dave just want to get the dirt when the rain falling it's it's kind of cream.
Here I'll tell ya at night when it's when it's dark and its wet yeah. You hear the sounds of the animals in the voices staff the dead end here, not near so far from everything like firing off a highway you're. You were definitely have the necessary to come to it. We all know about the Azeri. If you have me out here, I put this same question to another Arcy impede detective, now retired, who was brought in as fresh eyes to look at carries case in the late nineteenth nineties robbers urban ASCII, So when arab mind, what do you think outsider local? Let me ask you a question urban ascii, whom I met at his home and a small Ontario town preferred to be so crowded. Some of his answers asking me questions.
Instead of answering himself and in this way I find the process somewhat more revealing than what I got from the current Hersey MP and carries case we're sitting in urban ask is living room on a big couch with his close cut. Stylish but greying beard he looks young for his years. And he has the easy manner of someone used to catching people off. Guard lobby will be reversed. The role here for a minute You live in sums, Malta, hurry and you have just done some dastardly dean K tier significant other in your house, and you like, oh my gosh, ok, what what am I gonna do? One of good jail middle what're? You gonna do with why you're grass right here right now depends my state of mind. Well, ok, let's say you ve got the car you sitting the driveway to get the car started to go down the driveway and you gotta go get a drop this body someplace. I gotta get rid of this otherwise
Mama jail for us, my life, I'm gonna go somewhere where I know somebody can't seem so I'm asking you gonna turn right rigging. The term left I gonna drive aimless please, through area I have no idea where I'm going and private someplace, it's going to be a great place to drop a body or wait a minute. I know a place because I used to go there. Fishing or I know place cuz. I used to party there's a kid and it is a spot. I go up that road. I know it's nice and secluded and quiet How do you find that spot in a with somebody in the vehicle to commit a sexual assault and a homicide? You just don't come across these things by accident dump sites or the scene of the crime is always significant, Our significant seldom ever is at random. Somebody had to know that was the place to go. There was a place we go where you could be hidden away. Urban ascii is based
Keep telling me things without telling me I push forward, see what else can be revealed? Tell me about your involvement in Carryin Browns case. Well, my involvement came many years later, it's more from a review perspective. Investigative strategy, things we can do or pass we could be doing. I mean it still in the early stages back by looked at it before the development of significant dna results? That type of thing, so I mean you, look at interview. Is there something here that other were missing? Is there something else that we can do to to try and further this case? What are you able to tell me about what your findings were? Actually, I can't there's a lot of things that that we discussed that would be investigator strategies that
I can't talk about mail even today. I can say that I know from my involvement of investigators at the time covered a lot of ground. Ok, an awful lot of ground when I talked our sea MP and when a pig they said that they be understood still be interested to hear what Patrick Sumner said and meet the floors may because it's like he still of interest. So what's the question here and this waiting for an answer, there is no question that Ankara I'm always hesitant to do so. Anything ploughed potential suspects in something is certainly not before the courts and ongoing investigation. I think it's clear when you look at the here. The judge at the time
at the preliminary inquiry said, there simply wasn't enough evidence to proceed to drop. Ok, it's not a finding of guilty or not guilty, just not enough evidence. You have to go back to square one and go: what are we missing? Police won't say a word about summer, so I'm back to square one was something mass store was there no evidence, because some nerve is innocent. I try to focus down with urban ascii on what police new carry was brought outside now was carry murdered at that site, and the question is what There's some cuddled measure of assault happening before she arrived. Was there any sense of how that played out at the crime scene that you can remember? This is not a situation, I think we're somebody committed the murder elsewhere. Took the instruments of the death and dump them all in this area. You know nobody's nobody's that
well organised, mean Witchery Rancho. That type of thing clearly make you describe a tree that you can see where was broken off and used as a weapon in the way the body was found. There is clearly the area where the murder was committed, so when she left the party, if we look at just that part, would the person of been at random dry by or someone who lived in the area? Was there any idea of intention? We don't know. Ok, dont, know until you get that final dna profile match and you sit down with individuals, you dont know until you have a weak link that must be helpful, ok or weekly. That it wants to unload their consciences in and say
can't live with this or I'm gonna talk to somebody about you. Just don't know you never know intention until we find the person. Often you don't. Let me ask you a question: ok, if your cruising the streets and you're lookin for a young female to abduct rape and murder Would you wait till you got your crime scene to break off a branch of a tree to commit murder she wanted commit murder which do not say well I have to kill whoever I pick up tonight, so I better take a weapon. I better take a knife from a meal from the drawer. I better take a baseball bat or I better take something because I got to be prepared. Would you not do that if you're planning on doing it
thought about it. If you were in a situation where you have to do it now, and you look around and go what am I got? I've got a tree branch here when I break it off: I use it. Tell you a little bit about pre planning or intention does the level of anger and that's a question a tremor. A lot is like there must have been a huge amount out of anger, given the violence that was done to carry. Does it make difference in terms of your assessment of the crime scene. I mean obviously profile eyes. If you her experienced at this type of thing, and know exactly how many times you have to get somebody with a tree branch. You might say I just need to hit them twice, but you know what I know you don't know, and you go down this path and quite often it's gonna look like overkill,
How is it because the person was really angry or is it because they knew that they needed to commit the murder and that they were they were committed to it and they had to make sure one of the things we always look for us. Is the victim ology? It's important to know where the knot that person fight back because of the victim of right back? That might be why there's more violence, because the person fought back the person you some sort of a weapon that they found. Ok in defence that does that causes a change in the offender behaviour, because now you ve done something to me location. Sometimes it can have an impact on the end result of the crime scene in what happens in some evidence that
maps. Maybe she escaped momentarily, you know and ran through the bush with it the chase that individual, you don't know your emotions get pants up in you, you finally catch somebody in your in the heat of a chase and the Emoji. The running high people have said she would never have gotten a car unless she knew the people and if she got in that car was evil. She didn't know she would have had to be enforced in the car. That was the victim orgy of almost everybody have spoken to from family to friends and that afraid of that bridge and if she knew they were going to drive over that bridge, she never would ve gotten the car, ok and if
your friends say not as something she would do. Then you have to go with that. There's been a lot of information or there's been significant information brought forward and in its been in the media that the others to different dna involved. You can't profile to people, but not this. Same profile and has been in the media that dna evidence has indicated to people that have committed a sexual assault. The doesn't say that those two people committed murder the diseases somebody committed a session so to people. We have more clarity now. Ok, where more clarity, because DNA is advanced and restart and see the picture stir in comfort,
going? Ok in terms of dna other than what was found on carry. Would there be dna on branches? Third, the bloody branches other than carries dna from hands like epithelial things like that like is that possible another probably would have been contact. Dna on Carryin Brown Contact, dna on branches contact dna on the other matters. I would think that programme Dna is the strongest piece that investigators have at this point. I would suspect that those samples been resubmitted to the lab multiple times and I'm very confident that that's what's happening Trevor is also very focused on the idea of dna evidence hoping for a break in the case brought on by thirty years of technological advancements.
There's some new developments where DNA can be used to reconstruct what somebody looks like so an approximation of the perpetrators face can actually be seen through their genetic Information Jana marrow has told me that the arson paean Manitoba have researched this technology, but he wouldn't elaborate further on whether this might be explored as an option and carries case I have often wondered what the DNA evidence they have like. Is it sperm? Is it flesh, under a fingernail blood back at the hydro clearing where packing up as Trevor. I continue to discuss the evidence. The genius learned from them plausible and the falcon those suckers flirted blood on herself. She would have went on trying it stunning
the amount of material it was left behind and I'm sure it's confounded the r c m p as well. I never thought about it before wishing You have muddle over her. There was a Bravo of any kind outside the vehicle she'd be covered in mud, the autopsy or through right. I think that she was killed their based on that on the branches alone. I do believe that she was raped inside of you. I dont believe she was raped outside nice there looking down who drives this type of vehicle. You look at the details of that format to determine what type of vehicle it came from I am convinced they did this because she told them she was gonna tell him because of what they did to her. They sexually assaulted her and she was not going to shoot and good out of Whitey. There are guarantees that she was a total of czech and genetic shit for nobody and she went to fight back with everything in her heart and absurdity ploughed a couple of them
the people responsible for sexually assaulted and killing carry would have returned and home at an odd hour. They would have likely had ripped closer scratches, are signs of a fight on their body. Found at the crime scene, mighty tire tracks. A deflated air mattress in a format, branches for leverage branches for killing, carries jacket, carry shoe and her body and blood, and at least one very good shoe imprint? These are the things that we know about. As we driver the area days and Trevor points to a place where he took part in a sweat lodge trying to purify himself through a ritual led by a local indigenous person? He knows I wanted to expire. It's a sweat large. So I wanted to get rid of something that was in me. I just was the real being so close to where they found carry
Trevor says he like the sweat and the process and experience, but that nothing can t. Just obsession for a solution to his sisters. Killing we drive, pass the stables and right Hunter, mystery Lake, rode back toward town talking to police and Trevor, and others so far has filled in some blanks, but brings more questions without answers. But there was a suspect and arrest and some documents, if I can find them, Using official will help and written I heard r c m p. Bob urban ascii may have something else to offer some strata. Jeez for resurrecting carries case here. The prime reason another murder in the area was solved after sitting dormant for almost fifteen years, a young Indigenous woman killed a nineteen seventy one by four white man and the PA about a foot
Our drive from Thomson, her name was Helen Betty Osborne you have been listening to episode to dead end, If you wish to submit an anonymous Tipp about carry Browns murder visit CVS Darcy a slash s k S? email, the show at escape ass at CBC Dossier, join our new face, group and followers on twitter at ass, gay, Ass CBC, Someone know something is hosted, written and produced by David Region the series is mixed by sessile Fernandez and produced by Chris Oak step. Camp are more delicate units, kin and executive producer are if New Ronnie special thanks to just in Heinrichs,
or his shoeprints expertise, original music by David fishermen are things on is Thompson girl by the tragically hip We can Someone know something is a CBC podcast another show. You think you might like is uncover escaping Naxian, which takes you inside the bizarre self help groups that attracted actors, politicians,
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Transcript generated on 2020-01-13.