The investigation leads to the owner of an auto body shop, who has information about Patrick Sumner's vehicle, and similar cars that may have been in Thompson on the night of Kerrie's murder.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This is a c podcast. The following, this contains mature subject matter, listen. Discretion is advised You are listening to someone know something from CBC. Part casts in season five days. Region travels north to Thomson Manitoba to investigate. Nineteen. Eighty six murder of carry brown. This is pursued five pipeline really so what's up for really ok so by his father's dead, so make that maybe that yeah, I bet you that's real
ok, so we could go by their tonight, the scope it out and then figure out a way to approach and then make it as easy as possible for him to talk yet good work. Good work, some good news. Well, your Lobo Good NEWS Trevor may have found somebody who can help us locate Patrick Sumner, disgrace. Really my Patrick, to tell us the story of what happened with the police and why, in particular, They felt that he was the number one suspect I do wonder if he has some knowledge. Was
there that night did he come upon the scene? Did he drive down that road? Even wasn't him in the car, but he had nothing to do with it. These are all things that really need to be answered, and I am sure that Trevor and Mr Brown loved oppose those questions and here Answers got my surveillance kit here, nah, telephoto zoom on my Nikon letting go of Europe. Travers and colorful hawaiian shirt and wearing terrifically oversized leopard print plastic glasses. You might want to sit in the back, actually pay them in a kind of you look like a rock star with your loud sure and your sunglasses, and I look like your driver
thrown the parties than oversee he's late. Act seeming, but also on edge because we're on our way- Patrick Summers for the first time where do we go? We go a backup, Princeton driver of a past. The school turn right at the lights so after this street it'll be the first house, but it's back to us right now with the fence. Here I see it area the Van and driveway right now. Who knows serve Ajar. Someone is there there there's Mustang sure. Where is it's? Gonna be tough, causes those kids and they all know what's the tough entry, The reasons ravens are gone off and I the ravens there there like that's him,
to a measure of the license plate over now. Smart person would stick it out and wait there's nowhere to really sit except this playground. Here. I wonder if there's the driveway there, I would just going to look totally conspicuous yet there's a lady right there staring at us, I think it serve possibly better to go and see him. During the day, rather than just at supper time. Sure I myself live in school. I don't think it's a good idea to me. I make you, I will make him very uncomfortable. Definitely particular Binoculars Bird water
I've learned in all my previous cases that, speaking to people like Patrick Sumner, is far better with more knowledge. I need to be able to actually hear everything he might say and to have the right questions ready. Otherwise, you waste all opportunity. Do you remember the two witnesses from the cemetery road shot and Larry? Yes, we return to traverse too brief, Jim on what's happening and then we start talking about Sean Simmons and the vehicles he and the other witness Larry Lee part say they saw come out of a stable roads. The night carry was murdered. Johnson was the guy who pointed the finger asunder so the only thing connecting Sumner to the case was Simmons, pointing the finger at a rate that it Jim thanks back to some nurse preliminary hearing,
I didn't learn much except, like I told you that I could not see where they add anything to convict summer like circumstantial little better stuff, they found the spoon out there, which There was a similar one found at his house out of that dumb that they hot spoon or whatever, I'm not in the door. Bernie, I don't know that's all. I could say they figured. They had blood on clothing, they found out in the laundry back of the dump there from their parents place that stuff, but that turned out to be not not his blood or mother, anything they got identify. I mean I'm not that but I could not see nothing. Narrative say this man. Murder right. There did anything else like I know, was nothing whatever stand up in court and Theirs no other green car that was located with, but the pod fling flock Thomson reserves anywhere. I don't know about that
only two in out there are the only ones that color down that type of car. That's all. I know whether small town like this are pretty familiar with vehicles and no one yet one was a border alone was a good or lectures which I don't have the other one get the ass. The weird curious friends, father had the other one. The odds. They happened to drive a vehicle that looked eagerly similar to some nurse car, Derek her heard her Kurt Derek per year. A grim grimaces, nickname grimace and is also rather drove that car, a green color Derek, was named grimace or grim after the large purple character in Mcdonald's commercials, Derek drove a green, muscle car and sorted is older brother column according to German Trevor, but colony, live in town, anymore, mother,
a fire wherever they moved to like the man. Randy died, quite along with others, so carry would have known Derek, though very well carried our good friend trust me. You didn't Nicole's Rodney, very mad narrate shed for about three weeks. The father would not speak doing work run. Maybe because- There was only two vehicles like that in down, and one was under scrutiny. So do you know a grimace Urso refused if Dirk was cleared by the police He was interviewed by the police quite about solving the letters cleared by the Madonna. A binding, arrived back air. There still say I'm the guy if Derek,
a k, a grimace drove a similar car. I need to talk to him. Your grimace, I know why they call you grimace as this dog hi. How are you Derek sitting in his back yard, around a fire pit accompanied by his dogs Zena. She looks like a Newfoundland but she's actually part black lab part, mastiff derricks sunglasses on a tank top and he's got a beer in his hand, thanks so much for doing this, no problem, you sit in the sun, hairs out. Ok for youth Nokia, I've got coffee Epps, you die, Pepsi, iced, tea and bud light and beer beer not pass the sun isn't over the Ardour Museum get not nature. So even work. I've been up since five last night, which minor? What do you do? How can the milk crusher operator helper and the or that they bring up from underground comes in?
with just crush it down to smaller smallish ice of going to the mill may grind it down to powders ship into the smelter nickel. Have you always had the nickname grooms since I was fifteen, so you have had for a long time even at work. My boss calls me grimace, really Derek Kircher yeah. Ok, what it for you than their sixteen or seventeen. Probably seventeen. Tell me about your memories of the time when carry was murdered afterwards, I found out later on it? It actually have affected my dad pretty good. We didn't didn't, show anything but changed a lot but hard to talk. I don't talk about it to people. I don't know it's hard to
tell me about the day and maybe start telling me that carry you. There was the group for them like carry in Rwanda in Poland, and we just how every weekend. Roughly about twenty lesson, always pretty close group. Grimace was also at the Trode Avenue Party where carry went missing seem pretty normal. I advocate early that, but I can assure she was still there when I left, but there was just a regular regular first who had no school. For Friday, you remember seeing carryin at the pardon my yeah. Glad usually had the vehicle, but back minded it didn't. I'm usually picking up a bunch drop in on people go everywhere. There is always one or two that were always first couple hours. Dr here pick somebody up some ned go somewhere else, so you are the usual sort of designated driver. While there is a couple of us, I had a car.
I'll get a car carrying Nicole we're gonna leave. Nicole, went back for her share something when she came back open carry was gone. And I don't even know if she lived that happened before I left her after I left it was pretty close, would have been within minutes within Absolutely I would think so. They estimate that time around midnight or just before midnight witches theme time? I was leaving series item. I think it's like the par with that Helen Betty. There's got to be people that know it's been far too long. The town was too small, There's gotta be people that no some frank when they do fall, but you're gonna find out there's a few people in town all they knew something. I really think that I kind of all they run.
Right path with the guy they went after because, Patrick Summer, some kind it makes them look stupid if they were completely wrong. I think, for the longest time they were fixated thinking it with somebody. There There were so many finger pointing Goin on you were interviewed by the police. I did lotteries. Did you do a light? Attacker get my detector dna and they took dna from everybody in the party right I dont know I came to adorn ass. You don't even have to question. I've got a picture hanging on my wall and I actually did it in the driveway. If you want to go in the house, that's it! Now, let's give the neighbors something to talk about his prick. My finger in the driveway, your family may have come under some extra scrutiny, To a lot of people thought it look like some notion, but
anybody who knew anything but cars they knew or speed. They didn't look like some night. A white top of mine was all gold. Mine was rushed out. He had bondo, he had big white tyres. I didn't had regular tyres. What was his model, I think, was a coronet and what was your satellite chemist. Sadly, the Plymouth Satellite and the Dodge Coronet were very similar cars. In fact, in nineteen, seventy one. They were essentially the same car. Both Chrysler products just branded differently. Sumner owned a nineteen. Seventy Dodge Coronet you weren't driving that car no dad.
Mad at me that night knows no out Dick the cargo. That's why I had to be home or with the whole family. No current. Just U ochre! My dad New carries dad. They both worked to three and your brother, two brothers and sisters, so when older brother, but I'm the youngest that they come under any scrutiny with regard to the convenient. In time now. Just is me living with moment at both my brothers, one was in school. One was down south would carry in your estimation, have gotten into a car with someone she didn't know now. I dont takes not tone she didn't know, so you think that somebody convinced her to come into a vehicle oil guaranteed causes like shoes which wooden availed him, but she will interest you
it took off. That's that's not carry you, don't think she would have tried to walk to Nicole's. Hers issue is ahead of the coal or something without somebody with her because health is too far too far away, so that maybe, but I would think she would wait a few minutes So you didn't drive your car that night. Where was the car that night, whose here I was in the driveway this? Where he lived at the time, the family home, yet about my dad, only retail grimace pulls out another beer. What's the feeling in town about Partridge, dinner or longest I'm a buddy figured yeah. Now they don't know they took what fifteen years before found out there to differently examples, we didn't know from two different perpetrator
in terms of both formats and an error mattress. They got stuck I couldn't find that out for years and years later, do you know anything? our same looking into the various cars appeared. Did you hear anything from our simply directly or anybody else who said how many cars they were able to? look into, I don't know it took pictures of my card, but that was because what carries beneath the heart but tat they know they did was, Pictures of my car seem like once they got pat they fixated all PAN Euro store liqueur not resolve, it was who was a bitter, The car talk bring someone else to grimaces mind that Roby Backer seemed to know a little bit whose railway rolling. Becker. He had a body shop here and he did lots of commenting on there, and he said he he talked to a cop years ago was historical gap
Do you know him? I know who he is. There are areas Backer oh hi aspect. Heroically, This is David in calling from CBC radio radio yeah about. Are you really care Ok, I'm doing some work on We carry on brown case and your name come up as somebody who might be good to talk to I was wondering if you'd be interested in discharging with me for a bit about that case. If I could come and see you around
rolling, ok, so you're Raleigh all right. So I was wondering if you have a name, come up watch your angle on it I don't really have an angle other than trying to find out. Who did it, of course, would like finding out who is responsible myself. Germany time this afternoon, when they come and see her right now, if you that's all right, yeah ok allow probably, Ok, what's iranian silent waves tells the confronting true story of twenty six year old Raquel O Brien ass. She had comes to liberate herself from the trauma of childhood sexual abuse and a father with a dark secret. The seven parts
Greece includes raw and brutally honest conversations between Raquel and her family as they discuss their past for the first time, what emerged was a much larger story here: silent waves at silent waves, podcast dot com or wherever you get your podcast first I fast the vehicles, all right, please front yard and driveway are dominated by Frankenstein trucks, suvs and eighty
he's all rigged or rebuilt for offloading. There are parts everywhere in a kind of organised chaos at the back of the house, a large garage workshop with a closed door destinies, and here I know, you're the first Rowley adopted they love torrents release. Teenage son who answered the phone has short black hair and in a black t, shirt and pants nice old vehicles at her ears like her are you? U rebuilding suffer. The actual orally beyond gets up from a work table next to a giant truck they ve been working on. He's got a big salt and pepper beard, a cobra on his cap and a watch hanging by a care abinger off one of his belt lives
so your long time. Thomson resident really help have you been her pretty much nineteen sixty and do work in the minds, never an uncommon, nor my dad work very cold. I do enough not to who was good grow up. Small community is kids where this always out the Bush building forts catching frogs. Whatever seem like a great community girl. It now seems to have gotten a little refer back. Things change, or do we change? How do you know? What was your interest in the carry brown case? well I've got some information may implicate someone. So as not to some wanna do on the radio.
Can you give me any inside has to watch it I have to say without naming a person, not really an ear. Formations from a credible source. He would say from my on two eyes. After a few minutes and a bit of convincing Rowley tells me what he knows, the event happened on a third, stay and Friday savings were a bit slow around the shop and I was taking loads of scrap metal and stuff out to the dump. And in a little body shop generates a fair amount of scrap metal or whatever so
Friday I took out a first slowly. Scrap metal ionize saw patchwork, bizarre washing scar because it was found They operated dump, that's where he lived in the house on the edge of the city dump at the time, and this was Friday. And this was the Friday following the thirsty incident. The incident being carries disappearance, Patrick being Patrick Sumner body, had not yet been discussed Rachel Saturn rights- will be the seventeenth Freitas ass. It was the Friday at what time did you say so the first I'm not a morning person, so I probably would have got to the shop around ten. Probably did the first slowdown Levin so was late morning when I got there did one load knee was washing his car
Normally, I would gap TAT Lee Shinola waver in acknowledgment as I drove through because he was washing his car right by the entrance to the dump berry Nothing can you just. He seemed quite dad hey did then just one. She's car and I didn't really think anything of it and then, throughout the day I would head back to the shop. Load up more scrap metal. I was going through a bye shovel car outside in rearranging some loading some to go to the scrap metal in the hall did out, so I hold for load south that day for an hour or two between each load and the whole time he was their washing his car and then in fact, my wife.
Came out with me on the four flowed and one we drove through the gate. I even said to her. If he washes car anymore, there's not going to be any pain left on. Thing was that it was no show car car were already had spot surprise or on it. Like I say it's not something you at least spending the whole day clean. I mean guys pride in their cars, topical and almost be oecd about their cars, but still I just thought it was a bit odd and then Saturday their body was discovered in within a few days. Patrick Sumner was in custody. My best information is that
Sumner was taken in for questioning the day after carry was found based on Johnson when supporting about the police, but summers actual arrest didn't come until later. In the following week, on Thursday October, twenty third So then everything click, ok obvious obvious why he seemed so agitated was persistent cleaning scar for the entire day. Did he ever do. You have any occasion on that and no doubt I had heard from guy working in court that they couldn't even find his finger prints. They couldn't find Is it cleaned it's organic as it was while he spent all fuckin day cleaner, I don't know when he started on even finished, but he was ten
firstly cleaning it from eleven o clock to four o clock that I know a lot of cleaner and nineteen. Seventy Dodge Coronet five hundred the core and that for forty, wasn't assumed groovy. It was this the three I know, for transmission crappy day Reader ended. Ninety seven, the core, and that five. Ok, that's good to know Rowley story about Sumner, washing his car the day after carry is murdered, imply I some connectivity when pair. With Simmons observations of the car. He saw with its lights off emerging from the stable roads the night before, but it still circumstantial at best
and rode himself has questions when it comes to which car may have been seen at the stable roads. Just doesn't add up as to what car was seen and then which car was and pointed out, The airship m officer that I talk to sad, that someone had seen a green dodge muscle car in the area and passing them on, the shoulder appear that they share gears where the floor shifter ass they went by on the shore Sean Simmons at first felt the car he coming over the stable roads, with its lights off, was more green and color. But then
there's that, after seeing Sumner and his car at the gas station in the following days, what Sean calls a puke brow? What others call a more gold or ten color that this cars, ill matched. What he saw and remember, Sean Simmons also says he's very sure that he actually saw Sumner at the wheel, regardless of the exact color and yet Patrick scar. Obviously, gold and it was an automatic on with a column shift, because I ended up with his car after the Arusha MP toward apart looking forever. I hadn't heard about the question of floor versus versus I'm shifter and standard verses, automatic and the evidence, and I Sean Simmonds about this. When I saw as the car past you on the shoulder, did you notice a gear shift happened? Did you notice him shifting gears? I don't recall that I don't I don't have a member
if rollers recollection of the r c m p officers assertion, is accurate. The gear shifting Duration must have come from the other, witness that night Larry Lee Part, whom I have yet to find what state was Patrick's current when you got it all the interior was all got it in a shorter tossed back in there was a use of Oleg drivable. I had probably still ran, I dont know I did sitting for a long time- and I was just using it for parts for an identical car- is that I was building at times. How do you know it was his car that you got out of it? no what's his car as I bought it off patch. Ok, I mean I knew Patrick Barton Car, originally often employee of mine. At the time
okay that makes sense. I was familiar with the car and I was familiar with Patrick to some degree in our with buddy buddies with them, but I'd always seem around then, like. I said he was a customer the same cars is the one I was working solely and there wasn't there wasn't many of them at the time. I think there was only three in town and the other one I also had as part of that exact style. I mean her gentle, a number of different Chrysler Pro I accept fit that style within a three year: model periods, so Patrick, do you after he was led out of the prison and sold as car to you. Yeah. I was considerable amount of time the car sat out there,
Moreover, the dumper whatever for quite some time and then eventually ended up, coming and selling it to me. So if you have talked about Patrick about that time, that in cylinder only that event no, not really feel comfortable around many more roles, knowledge of cars and in particular some nurse car is helpful, but we still don't know whose car was seen the night carry was murdered. So what kind of person is power, Patrick DC, Marvel see more of know. Why but seem like someone out. Like everyone else kind along to fit in with the crowd to go along with the crowd, the times her would ever be on his own. At times he seems like a fairly quiet reserved individual
Have you seen him since perhaps just once or twice, but never talk to you wonder if he did see something and he was there. I guess this being implicating the crime. Obviously that's what would keep him from saying they dare? He could very well be fearing furs life. If he saw the brutality happened, carry at the hands of some then he would have reason to fear His life only speculate. It's all speculative. I don't want to get into that territory, but I'm just gonna ruminating with you. Even ass. The r c m p officer at the ten year remark when they re open the investigation. There I said, did the tire tracks of this. Vehicle match Sumner vehicle, and he said no, they did not bid
he? May have changed his wheels and tyres, but I know for a fact he didn't change wheels and tires because it Still have the same aftermarket mag wheels and tires out we're on it when he had bought I love you why you're mine at the time? So you saw the car before the summer after a caveat, came back exactly as it had gone to move still have the same wheels and tyres on, but that our sympathy of sir was able to confirm to your memory that, some retired to John NASH, match whatever the whenever vehicle was stock. But then, who knows of the vehicle love was There was even a related to the the incident with carry girl. You witness Patrick doing the time to me seem very strange
one say had em in custody. I thought. Okay, it's a wrap. Kay said what I had seen now makes sense he was acting, but then what he was release because they had with circumstantial evidence, but then, when they were real funded at the ten year mark. Then I got a hold of Lee officer in charge. It even Sadie says. If you got enough circumstantial evidence of may make case, I mean when young people always saw the truth, the truth. What's the truth? In actual fact, the truth is pretty Mary
however, because people believe whenever they want to believe anyway? Well, thanks, so much really nice to talk to you. Well, I hope I can help. I mean I feel really feel for carry brown and her family. Like I said, Leon come around the shop lot sold them car reply. I heard out when I heard without undue sister back down help. No one takes any offence of anything. I've said, but or something his burned. My memory recollect loading the best I can. I make a no to ask Trevor about his brother ye and at some point and then the floor. Shifter
Rowley said he knew of another car, another guy, anybody else in town have a car that you think would have at that time. Looked like those cars. One in particular, I know about the time, was style, but it was the G T Act, so it would gain standard with for forty big block and floor shift, whether it be an automatic or stand, and this one of my men, serves me right was stand but either way JP acts. Came based model with the floor shifter in the big block. Four forty do you know that was Green and you know the name of that person yeah, but I'd rather not say, and you know- and I know he drove like a mad man most of the time anyway,
as even the Irish Sea and pity ass may, they said the war so that he was. Driving like he was leaving the scene of the crime, and I told him I said no way was trot. Anything like that. Does he always drove and he was so foul. I knew from Mother Demolition Derby day. Sir and do you think they are seen p looked into that fellow I don't The ten year market now took down the information whether they followed up on it. I couldn't say thanks both of you push on here and thanks for showing me a route to I like to see all the vehicles and stuff check check check I've arrived in a small town in Western Manitoba. After discovering that this is,
where the man Raleigh was likely talking about lives, another person and Hobson, who want a car that may have look like the one Sean Simon says he saw coming out of the stable road. The night carry was murdered back in the day he was known as mad max, Oh hello, a dog, MAX place, losberne their mature buggy, stung, We run down back here. It has lots of stuff welder batteries can old
pressing, different parts of different machines and gas cans. Nobody answer, so I walk back down the road just in time for a truck to drive up beside me A man in his sixties in a red and green plaid workshops and wearing glasses, pokes his head out with questions on his face blogger forgotten a max look for MAX, for more CBC original podcast go to sea BC. Dossier, slash original podcast,
Transcript generated on 2020-01-13.