« Someone Knows Something

S6 Episode 4: Fragments

2020-06-01 | 🔗
Debra proposes a new dig on a Mississippi property in her search for answers. Could it be the spark the case needs?
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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are you afraid to fame good Macao Mississippi once again, may two thousand nineteen. And my son Owen has come with me. Deborah Madame before and they formed a strong connection over the time we ve worked together. She told me few times how he reminded her of Donny. Oh and made Owen not me. I d frisk cellular phone and shows I wanna video she's made of a dusty page cat. She recently rescued back in Maryland. So the cat is named Owen because your sign, I just He made a good impression, loving the pieces slightly in doing this, the KEDO on on break from its university biology programme and he's come with me to look for southern insect and fish species. Yes,
it helps me by just being around he's gotta. Scruffy beard and his swearing, tick, proof, military, fatigues and stays in the, background mostly, but when he can emerges to check in our endeavour and see how she's doing he's a part her life now on the other. As you know, run, and he just He's like a dog Deborah is paying for a new dig to search for Danny's remains a doctor, nobles farm to prepare. We book a few months ago to mercy had dad some. Who knows a lot about the property among The things mercy area thanks for coming. We ve been sort of walking around with it. If you can just gonna take me, rental, the property and show me things, and we, China, thanks
She is wearing a thin Venus sweater genes, and wayfarers she's. In fifties, and I've asked her to come out to the Nobles Farm to show me around. She, Is to visit here often uneven lived here for a while here. Why now Their grain, she's, also Shane Gunther sister chains and your brother, Freddy of other siblings, are so tell me about our close in age well, over a year apart- and we were always very close and I'll have to talk to you, at some point when the timings right and mercy mentions or other brother, George or shame. Gunther Eight years later, George With was is given. Name was born, and he was born in California and just
You know he was just a little baby. He was like a little toy to us, but ass we get older. He cannot just did his own thing. I let the moment pass without comment? Will come Acta Shane, I'm certain mercy keeps talking and tells me that her grandparents built this house in the nineteen fifties her grand father had been hired out of Chicago to work at a nearby box. Company only come up we're on the weekends and spent so much time here. It looks a lot different. Then we had trees was a long line of pine trees on this road. Here you felt like you're in and confine spot for me So what is now as Nobles Cottage was used as a cottage Gunther summer, unclear by the exactly where, unclear to me exactly where her family came into money along their timeline. Probably not just the fern would box company
but by the way mercy talks about her life, her travels and childhood. It's obvious that she comes from a considerable amount of it we had to the barn area, where I want mercy to show me where she remembers the burn pile being scope through into a clearing in the woods here. Moreover, housing here brightness, but we're here. Mercy standing several metres to the south of where the previous trench was dug. The trench it covers a quarter of the area. Mercy is pointing out, could police dug in the wrong spot? They think the centre of the world. Pilots in the middle of that line. That's too far away that makes no sense. Think about it. Rationally. Did you put by way of an era when you're only source of waters right there, so
air positioning, the burn pile like quite a bit We could say the centre of it is their kind of thing and that's about, but fifty feet from the book Kyle said that when he arrived, the was already stacked in a neat high pile. It was always prepared there was a sort of stacked Would in the middle of winter. Statutory used rather suddenly got like here this tree in our you'd cut it off and you you throw it They are in the Middle EAST, where the baron power we wanted to make a nice once you know what too bad venue Far, usually, we left it for the flowers and there is always a hose here and you burned in my world had to be close enough to the House cuz. There was always fear that we will catch fire because there were thousands treason. I've seen two photos from mercies era that show fire pit would on the property in war.
The wood was neatly stacked, as Kyle describes and in the There is a random Bush pile as mercy described, so both versions could be accurate. And Kyle remembers spigot for a hose being close to where the fire pit was be a whole doing, but fire caused the fire looking over At the corner of the drive shed, I see a corroded spigot for a hose details matter, and they add Credibility to Kyle story, a burn pit near a barn spigot. But differing stories about piles of wood, It would also strengthen the case of other people, can remember actually seeing Donnie in Mississippi in May one thousand nine hundred and ninety five. I didn't know Donnie. I never met Donnie the only thing I remember about hearing about Donnie and I assume it was Donnie was
that Shane had guy that he was in love with and cared deeply mercy. Remember, Shane, asking both she and their mother sue. If you bring a friend to the farm house about a week. For they arrived in the spring one thousand nine hundred and ninety five was coming back. I guess to get his dogs from mom cuz mom is kept his dogs for a while as puppies and shame is come in with a friend of his two We need to show the house, because in this is kind of like the family house and on he said you know, can we can we stay there, and I talk to my husband and we both right now. I think that's a good idea. He can stay with mom I'm my grandmother. They were all live in town, so there is no for them to actually stay here, and he I got piss off at me. He was up
that that I wouldn't let him come stay here which is like and didn't really understand what the big deal was anyway, you know, and then after we got in that little tiff, I just in thinking would come by. I think maybe he had made some comment to me like I will Warnock whatever for weeks months, the police came, I and said died, Shane and die. They had come by the House and some time here marcy says she didn't even know the Donnie was in Mississippi until the police came to her door. Many weeks later, someplace claiming that police came said. It was missing, you didn't even know like your bride and even though that day come by really at that point he never call. She never call me and said: oh, we came by the house and we did acts in that way. You know driving over I'm thinking. Where else.
Where else could this have happened, if it Fun Kyle but he said is true: is it possible that they or somewhere else you know, bed the police are told me that no, he pretty much came a year in and walked in. Everything was familiar to him. You know I wish I had been here to see with actually did, but yeah he's got enough, information to kind of it makes sense. If you are in a panic situation- okay, I somebody. Where do. I go well To take him out here, if we were gone, would make sense. This kind of a second home to him. This is a comfort zone for him, what a ban. Ass mercy why she was here
why she was talking to me about burn piles and her brother in connection with Dionysus disappearance, because I'm on Christian among the Parson somebody's kill somebody else. I'm gonna do everything I know about it and it gets a wrong some or all wrong. It's assist. This is wrong. You don't need to some kill somebody now. If he didn't do it now. I did spam it out if I can help out and anyway I can. I will certainly do that for anybody in and now that I know Deborah. I just feel for I just can't even imagine what she's been through and smart. It goes out to her and You know, I've seen things with my brother that
I just can't believe some things he's turned to me and to our family he's a self centered narcissistic human being, so, if I can help out will come up with something, that's not true, just to help her out or help are fine, but I think she needs closure and the thought that we were living in this house, and my brother did what he did. In bright. Anybody body back here or killed. I did that on this. It just in a further cement, the Jesus. Maybe I can just in a further. The man, the idea that there is something very wrong with him
he's always very easy to MILAN like mentally emotionally abusive. He didn't have the relationship of our mother that he had with my grandmother change you take. My grandmother was very, very endearing. Very sweet with my grandmother. Never ate his voice. Just you know she. She was kind of his person. She always took care of him if he ever gotten a situation where we needed money, Mama He would send a money find out all this. Until later, she didn't tell things that she. She did mercy and chains. Mother Sue died in August, two thousand ten. She when a valuable potential witness to the is the case, because she was in the area the time what, pasta, did she know, apart from what she said, the Deborah that phone call in October. Ninety ninety five in that car, Deborah, says Sue described in detail, see
Donnie in Mississippi and witnessing an argument between him and shame, but into the police file Sue made different claims to them simply the most perplexing sues. Has Donnie called her in June of nineteen. Ninety five, this would have been days after the events that Kyle has taught police about Donnie COM, also says and asked where she was, but Debbie is adamant that sue never uttered this detail to her these were never able to substantiate sues claim of this alleged car from Donnie. I'm you're, a Sou, knew more than she was letting on. Did you ever get them? russian that your mom news, something more about this. She never said anything about and have talked about it at Paris there is no way mom hidden,
anything on my grandmother would do anything for me about. If this had happened with Jane, they wouldn't have a protectionism, but you know I guess what you can't you just to that end. A Mississippi police detective working for Pike County named Perry Ashley had been, by Marilyn police at the time to interview Sue Gunther. This would have been more Ninety ninety six Ashley's report, it is endeavouring police file as our notes on the communications, with Sue Gunther made by Maryland police about the case and the story Sue told Deborah and police, not an alignment, I really need to speak to Perry Ashley to get to the bottom of them. After a series of unanswered messages. I finally track him down at his home in the com. I suspect
I my much enjoyed David region. I work for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. I'm investigating a case that I think he worked on back in the early days as name Donald. Is it the woman in the case named Sue Gunther, who I think you may interviewed remember, do Gunther in any of her family members about lad. I have actually your document that you typed up about that interview, which I could are you actually refresh your memory. Do you think it bring that over and show it to you. It's just a one page document. Thanks very much. We arrange to meet later. Who's in charge. Here this group here them good morning, David David high on Cathy Maya nice to meet you after birth.
First Deborah Owen and I arrive at Nobles property and walked out. Slope to the area. Next to the barn, I guess you're right in front of me, Kathy Meyer, the owner of a small archaeological dig company out of TUSK, Elusive Alabama she's in a hat and blue t shirt and carrying. Square, ended, shovel, spread out across the field next to the barn, a team of other diggers. Each delicately scrape brushing aside the top layers of soil millimetre. By millimeter in for or five areas. They have deemed look right for an historic fire, having been there besides, this is actually the first project. That we worked on, everything we do is related to pray, stork in historic, archaeological sites, historic structures, historic cemeteries and stuff, so say principles applied or yes,
actually that's what we're doing here is the same exact thing that we would do when we're testing in any archaeological site this isn't a pitcher and said I found a peck are we burned at the far spot, where we first there see where it is. Is it their minutes have overlooked at those trees marks he has texted a photo to Deborah of another area where they used to burn, but it's hard to figure out. Exactly where it is in relation to the way the trees are now. Owen is good. With Ray identification, so he's called over to see if he can figure it out. They all have a look at some of these burn pile pictures. We want a figure of historically the trees the background. What they, became later and the police and the sizes in ages and then, if you can figure out direction there taking the photo from nights when the prize
I think it, Even here that's what they're home ass. I think it's that tree and that tree or the ones to non. Like look see that true in that country, to non pines vacancy in here. So I think it's that tree that tree the pines and backs are worth a fireplace where's that black stuff, whereas that's post be right or she standing should be right. There in fact the other. Airport was right here. Some charcoal has been found in that area already. So this new burn area could be the pit mercies talking about watch online go off to look for fish in the nearby pond, and then I remember mercy telling us about the other fire tat, the one that the
The least trash barely touches when I was there before she pointed out allegedly different spot David took a pitcher and I stand in there and it was a good, from where we were taken before. Let's walk around, if you could show is because we do have a the ninety ninety seven aerial photograph that says a black smudge and We want to see that's the same burn that you're talking about phase I keep thinking. We did that trench water for two inches off the disadvantage of doing a trench like this. It can be very good if you, if you're, hitting the targets that year, trying to focus on. But if you miss the target, then yeah can help in this.
I anticipate manner as far as find and on it, but every time I came here and I dont know how to explain it, he's there yeah. I know when Deborah says he's there she's pointing to the New Burnside near the trees on agenda fight tears. Drift from her face, never decides to situate herself completely off the dig site in a long chair shaded by a tall water oak close to the barn. She was make sure she separated from any potential discovery of evidence and once nobody too be able to level any suggestion that she made contaminated the proceedings are not working The item walkin in anyone can verify what long enough to anybody here, even though they would let me I was basically largest even like to walk up to anything, because just so I can testify that it be silly triple cell phones moment.
Hours each grace of the shovel reveals dirt different colors lack graze, reds oranges, all in negative up. The soils passed over time, round and its contents can shift and flow with wind and water erosion away from the place origin skilled? I is needed to follow the color lines back to their source. Certain colors with US present can indicate a hotter burn, the kind of heat an eight hour plus fire might make Jeff Meyer Cathy's husband in a big straw, he's trying to follow a vein of large now orange far get real hot hurdle ban gonna shoot your bag ashes Conner
in this wise and has come back to tat deeper down here I got that Marlon it's kind of an hour Kane seeming science David, please with canadian broadcasts in this lengthy cows or- and this is the most experienced forensic we are on the side, is archaeologist, Lynn, Funk Hauser, Linares, thirties and his as focused and meticulous as she is covered in turn. She's. Do her dissertation at the University of Alabama on an analysis of cemeteries and has been doing the crime scene for over ten years. What are our feelings on the areas here? I think it's all potential more complicated than we had originally anticipated. I that might be true for any art I'd call investigation, and certainly in crime scene and this complaint
of the two just seems you have brought it out even more soil would accrue over whatever since ninety ninety five at every talkin inches feet, probably extensive writer into his actual compactor aid or dissipate. Somehow it depends on what they deal with it, because it's the best of our knowledge they let the embers cool before they were deposited that are actually help promote structural integrity hosts deposition if they had buried it. While it was hot, the weight of the what a further fragmented it and further dispersed into the soil matrix. So if our information is correct- and we are Looking for a deposition or event, then we should be able to find it and find it intact.
Just clean so far, clean meaning, without artifacts, without cultural material, modern or otherwise Kathy Meyer Times in we did the shovel skinny and I believe that we're probably gonna be screening this material and we're gonna to be doing that with everything that we excavate. Course anything that you know appears to be bone bullet rag, man, Sir Power, our goal and Asher found the group carefully take samples and system through large wooden. Once hot Botz, charcoal and Asher found the group care. We take samples, insists them through large wooden frame screens Eggs from one centimeter and larger are left on the screen, while the rest
perhaps to the ground anything that That is, their eye is different, is kept. Even though this guy thinks he claimed? all the human remains he didn't. There are still there stop out here that he would not have recognised, as you know, bone and so is just a matter of can find it in a real, discreet pocket. What happens at the point where you find What you think is a human remain are, basically the plan will be its very possible come across. Both will be such a small fragment that we won't be able to tell us as human. So we would collect that too, but we did run across. We would go ahead in contact the dossier. I checking on Deborah settled in her launcher. She's feeding, ice cube, The lucky dog I gave her waters what drink it? If I do the issues that are needed
go on do all these tasks they set up. They do the mapping they get it all set to go, and now his travelling around the outside edges of the fire pet trying to start from the outside. It. So in the file. It says that suit Gunther says that she knew that darning was close to his grandmother and kept in touch with her So she knew that and she told the police person bath. How would you know that the aims to talk to him. He was here right, ok or shame. Could I told her, I don't positively positively was here. She said that Yes, the had been here that they had been here and it he and I had got into a fight argument and the driveway and that they left and then when she came back change, exact
to her was Donnie would not be accompanying him back to California. There was a since they are, but she never said to me that person pushing Donny and there's never been any understanding of who the other person might have been was present when Jane had his are Donnie. She never. A name to me if Kyle statement is to be believed, it rules him out. As the other person Sue Gunther told Deborah, that she saw the driveway since He says he arrived on seen after dawn, he was shot, no one, but so help me the chain of mother, did not give me a name I mean I'm not sure, but remember that
I really are attacked periodically Carolina Washington, Avenue, tat fire burning, my whole faces outside others. Wait. We had two former Pike County detective periodicals place and become a budget surplus pass. This yellow house we drive up on a well maintained, Bungalow set back on our crisply, tended lawn, Mr Ashley. Thanks so much for taken that call a microphone. So I'm journalists and I working with whatever Scully she's done mother and- in Gunther was the name of the some who
allegedly had killed. Donnie is it and Danny is Deborah led have done that did you come to that conclusion? We have a source who has? told the story of how we help Shane burn Donnie as its body on the farm, which is now owned by doktor nobles that Gunther estate out there. Finally, I want to show you know what you to tell me if your signature on on it to make sure it's yours, were you interviewed Sue, Gunter, the mother of shame, and she gives serve a story about what happened that day, Sugandh dead now, so We can interview her. If somebody else did, it looks like She changed her story. Ass time went on through the documents that I've read. The marriage, is what you get your signature. Do not let me say this to you,
don't remember the case simply because all our day was made contact with one person has been twenty five years ago. I'm sorry, if I had more be more than happy to tell you about more ever come to court, but I don't really know it was not significant enough for to retain it a moment Somebody call responded: to call they are there made my report a meal- the two of Us bloody, solid, detective. Ashley can't remember a single thing about the case and no recording was ever made of sue to my knowledge, so All we have is Perry short to page letter to Maryland police and their own. When they about their phone contact with Sue Gunther.
Ashley's letter Sue states that the only time chain and Donnie were at her home was in April. One. Ninety five, when they were on a different trip on route to Florida, she states that when she came to get his poppies, which would have been may ninety. Ninety five Donald was laughed in New Orleans. This is it with her son chains, own statements to police, about bringing Donnie to Macomb and with care. Statements. Although two does confirm to Ashley that Kyle came to my com for a few days in may and she says that chain removed the front seat from his Miata and placed the puppies and up portable kennel, where the seat was she when I called the chain and Donnie more there, and they got into a fight and that's when chain left with Donny and Shane came back and told his mother that Donnie what be accompanying him back to California
after the New Orleans and she told me that the passenger seat wasn't in the car, It was taken out to transport puppies back. If Shane Indonesia trip from California to Mississippi, was to pick up poppies as Kyle remembers, what was the plan for Donny in the two cedar Miata on the way back. Another unanswered question Deborah discouraged, but also The press on tv However, to wear super lived and ninety five sue used to live in a bungalow here in a calm and the where she would have seen the argument between Shannon Donny Deborah has learned something from Marcy that she wants to check here: the property where the burn piles are located now. Doktor Nobles farm is about a fifteen minute I from here,
flower box that sooner had put in. Immediately after I don't like the May First Party June, something along those lines. He was adamant about having this flower box put in. And her son, Freddy, put the sour said Anne more say, remembers even plantain roses and thus- and then It was immediately after that has come to move to Texas and I'm just wondering why she was so animal. That Heaven is put in there and moved right away. According to the police reports, sue Gunther Move to Texas and took them yet a car seat with her marriage. Police noted seeing sues house for sale in August nineteen ninety six, but that she had moved before that the information I have indicates that Sue could have moved between a month and ten
After dawn he disappeared Debbie, believes that something might be buried under the flower box at the house. We pull up on the FBI. I apparently looked in the wooded area behind this house a couple of years ago, but debars as they didn't examined the yard or dig under the Flower Box and she's not satisfied with this is like a squirrel, MRS Countries to live ashes, or now they kill well, go to define and then to the banking house. We get out of the car, but I hang back in case first sight of my microphone set up might discuss. The current occupant of the home from opening the door Deborah
walks quickly up and knocks. Nobody answers so I watch ass. She walked beside the house and jumps the ants into the back yard ever since gone behind this house to see a flower Box in the back The dog barking outer then the front door opens and Bleary eyed woman and a bathrobe appears. I move into action with Deborah. Still in the backyard of this woman's house sorry to wake up there? a woman who was to know about one of the flower boxes in the backyard here, because there is a case involving her son and nothing to do with you or the occupant of this house. But is there a flower box that was here when you moved in the back of the house? Just then
Brooke comes around the corner and joint seamlessly into the conversation. Like them. Big flower box ground three years ago, when they were digging out back happy. I let the I had to free block off as my son they removed before they were suspicious that maybe the remains of her son were buried in the back yard. The woman whose name is Gretta tells us that Boxes are no longer there We just have a little look. The sea were used to because she knows where it used to be in the backyard there can we want to see. I can show me where it used to be yet will go around like it. Where are we That deal
over. Here I thought you had a door and it would have been front of one of these right here.
Another house coupled out from here and actually place where they burn MA, am I'm so bad ass. Well in support of Friday, because Friday's agenda there mom wanted this flower box put him right away, he built it ready after Doin it was killed, and then she moved to Texas Radio that, even after all, her furniture everyday things should have whether, according to mercy telling the place was a passenger seat. They certainly Barillon place was here, but they never ever search. There was always conversation, never searched all they're, not gonna. Do it now she's, besides passed at all that there were no, they came here, live how many years gotta turn have lent to long ago. Thank you very much for facts. Earnest shooting here I shoot no bad and the same be careful you not laughing it. So bad debris,
nurse her theory on what happened to Donnie with Gretta something better person. They helped him has confessed everything something Albania, since it's kind of a he don't, deserve to be walking around. As for short, Deborah get The blessing of the current owner and thinks might try to return for an excavation here Sunday, but for now we had back to the dig site, a doctor nobles to see what's happening. Starter area that gardens harkov like in and then I will map those. Then. I'd have to set up a white pergola tent over one of the big sites before we left they do. This The soil color can be seen better out of the sun. And now I notice everyone on the site has gathered around under it
broached the margins. Without touching the actual dig. I like easily found more charcoal with this year this one's yeah more ruminations about various colours differ burn areas scraping and sifting things seem to be moving along slowly much more than glass here. Turkle rocks ass now get it wrong. I don't think we found anything, has expired. Us, but we do have a bag stop working. Get a little closer tonight because we need a magnifying glass. So, but now we have it vanity thing that were like this. He said now. We decide to get some rest and start fresh, the next day or sick about these guys. Our rights. You guys tomorrow than ticker or I'll, go get on,
we will see the mornin haven't for me In my mind, I just want to dig went ire Erin? I know the money, it everything so much money. I mean to have done opera is going into heavy debt over Danny's case and paying the dig out of our own pocket is just a part of that process crazy? Just everything like? Maybe I'm not doing this right, I mean like a prey allied but their site just maybe if, if I do what you're supposed to do cuz, I was catholic and you're always comunio and you know whatever, and so I got the idea of the tied to bed. It was praying, but maybe I've been doing it wrong, crazy, now that there is a right whenever there is a sort of states. No expert on prepared on ass me crazy, so
I am even more angry of or more confused on why we're still studying here, and I don't have a conviction I just I will get it, but I don't understand any act. I can understand how you can say. I hoped bury this body and I did all these things and this is when I did it just where we did it. And nothing happens to you. I don't think anybody listening with question that but how does he had us cow Calvin? he tell all the stuff in nothing's happening nothin during our growing aftershave I'll, get it They can go after, they can try, but they said It had the peace.
Shopping for mattresses can be exhausting, but Nectar sleep makes things simple right now. Nectar is offering their best deal ever get a premium memory, foam mattress, starting it just four hundred and ninety nine dollars an expert, award winning layers of comfort. You also get three hundred and ninety nine dollars worth of accessories, including sheets pillows. In a mattress protector nectarous, shipping and returns forever warranty in here long home trial means you can rest easy with your purchase joint over a million happy sleepers. By ordering your mattress today visit nectar sleep com for details, warning The next morning we finish our hotel breakfast and TAT Odin separate cars, Deborah arrives just ahead of me at the nobles and when I arrive her car parked outside the guest house so I had down to the big site to find her own. Those looking for some basking snakes around the gigantic pond, a few hundred meters away
When I arrived, I see Jeff in the distance skimming across one of the features with a shovel Deborah now Would it be seen, looks like it's a charcoal her trivial yeah? That's gonna, look like The top its color going away and getting down to some time ago, and I am not really sure how Davidson's gonna be today, should give it a rest inside The game is bad hat mariners barbarity. There's something going on here. I can tell them a text comes in The text from Deborah saying they found human remains and I'm going go back to earth. I guess she is.
As I near the cottage with carport Deborah emerges. Looking completely shattered, tears are streaming down her face. What's goin on. They found even roommates who said that they come. You have been started. How can I make it clear that? And they didn't want to tell anybody or do anything they told me because they wanted maiden. Before they call law enforcement, but it wont, let me say it or take pictures twenty someone to take pictures. Please. I was a kid You look very soon. There will talk to me about, though, that the opinions are strictly coordinate, how did they confirm that and where did they find it the ten is under the tree and I was wondering where I work at the door to take.
The cooler and to get I get my modern put in a cooler and the door was locked, but I can remember talking weird and they opened the door Linden it's just for a little bed cigarette out. Is it then took out. It was, may I said yeah I just stood there. They are. I know that is just not miss I would ask them, after a bit of convincing Cathy and Lynn, give me a run down of what has just transpired. Yes, so we found with then what we're calling at. Why three fragments that have the appropriate consistency of bone, one of which is an absolute
one of the one of the fragments is definitely bone. I think it is very probably human, we're gonna need a SEC. Opinion to confirm, preferably a specialist in cremated remains bone burns over time at high temperature, it change. The composition and size, remains. Are one of the trickier areas of forensic science This is in the underneath pergola the unit one unit, one unit, one feature: and was it pulled her yesterday, like our member? If peace is a shark having brought, I will live standing there, that's the kind of stuff. You turn. That's the kindest up, we're talking about. We needed magnification and we needed to clean it up a little bit before we could be sure- and that have been my sight so the process from now on. What's the difference now decreasing the screen size, so we ve got inserted into the brain. We had originally order
and now we're going to make this something much smaller, so that we can get a finer, great material We ve been collecting all of the backdoor, I'm tarps just for this situation. To now we pull all about earth and scream out as well. So nothing is lost. Why did the perimeter around you know wine? It looks like the ass lines that was associated with the burn pile was levelled and that's where we can anticipate potentially finding more of anything Even cremation specialist don't get all the remainder. So there's no way. To random deeds and South Mississippi UR gonna there do so. Color is acting a good diagnostic indicator for us, we're finding it on Spectrum, which is also helping with our interpretation, win own burns. It's got a range
between black and white. That includes gray and I'm kind of a bluish gray, and that's it that's what we ve got some good news I'll tell you pressed down so very fuck, sir, so great and of course we are happy to help, I'm so glad, I'm so glad, and, while his finger there's anything anger for you. Just let me know word at the discovery. Travels fast and it doesn't take long for detective, John Lapierre and other police to show work. Clapping asks everyone to make entries in a log of their visits to the site. I don't know
Where The discovery travels fast and it does take long for detective, John Lapierre and other police to show work clapping? everyone to make entries in a log of their visits to the site materials are a lot of. It is the exact degree you would expect some throw into a long burning bonfires, so logical, a lot of melted glass, melted, aluminum cans, firecracker. Yes, furniture. Now I'm not walked up to any of the sites that they been working on. I ninety five always payback. I just want to know that What is your anything? You know: you're you're, fine, we're still
then: I follow globule around the perimeter of the dig as he seals the whole area off with yellow crime scene police tape. Hold for air? I guess it's time that's gonna, get used to do asks me to take photos of the samples, because I have the highest resolution: camera on site and once police take official custody could be a while until anyone sees these samples again, I agree, and so to police Owen. Can you the eight hundred with the macro lens. Now, they found a fragment that looks like a bone. Can you hold us? It's ok. You guys ever then I take it.
Leonard in particular that you wanna as it is our focus, our three but as the robbery, with own holding them like I hunker down on the grass with the fragments in marked bags in front of us, One of the time fragments are removed from their bags with gloved hand and placed in front of my lands, one or two when particular show spongy holes, but they, obviously been through high heat, and they don't look like what I'm expecting born to look like, could these fragments be pieces of Donny. We didn't imagine we'd be doing this today. The society here ok want
Not good for your own good for me police want me to email them all my photos- and I agree Only one stand up certain grab that might from it. She sermons could see again. How you true it thanks. Me for taking the photos of samples- and I show em one to get his take. So you can yeah yeah, you can t tell you want to Those are very upon what I've learned on bones and that. Looks very him. You look for honour, ok, As we say I can remember them, the color but see the little honeycomb debts.
Their fairly circular cocheco, say some odd looking, but they bury circular shape and some other set. I here see here, animal bone Ok, ok there was something about an untold I've, never seen a comparison between a pig, Mona Human Mon. They were talking about how pig, moms or more human life, than any other, and that's it you can see that as a proponents Geller. So true, it seems to be edging towards the human and of things, but has committing and it does, take long for the local press to somehow get when defining Herndon from them a calm paper walks the true at and I, as we stand near debars launch here oh yeah,
David price will have worked with CBC Workin, whatever for awhile on this now. Nice to meet? Somebody wants my own start out just say Saviour phone, I'm here, but Of course we were bound some items that look promising, a high probability of the boy human bow. We don't know leprosy we're not gonna build up to export We have to wait on man. Could it be more remains a mean. I don't know from someone else to animal Well, when I make it was described me is how probability that a tomb and kind and that, based on the shape of a particular police- and so nobody has told me
that it's human eye they're not saying that? But it's a high probability. I won't know to send it to a proper expert. This all macroscopic examination you're the physical anthropologists guess the archaeologists So what did you find them? What do you think of it here We have right now three Fragmentary, osseous remains one early- displays Tibet Killer Spongy bone, again at something we're gonna want as secondary company. Like to wait to say until we have confirmation from a secondary specialists and right now, based on what we have. And based largely on my training, as is our geologists working with funnel, remains. I feel comfortable in common saying there very probably human again, that's
we're gonna want as secondary confirmation on we need someone that specializes very specifically We made human remains getting the samples tested could take a while, sir, months, maybe, as and has been speaking, someone else's arrived on the scene, district attorney debates He reviews the samples with Lynn, as is the largest fragmentary, fumbling Massimo. You I'm good, ok, smaller. I believe I say that I am no offense, Now I have to confirm here for someone I can. That is a shadow of a doubt out. I can you inside tamper with it, but I do need, though
Good GPS S about location right, we can do that. I want to know if my constant anywhere corridor figurehead men from the very beginning, even saying that you don't lie, but yet I have not be disrespectful anyway, but I disagree with that motor. My question For now what
as you are you going to do as far as this is one of the items that were already taken have to be sent to investigative agents, I can't dna will be turned over either to Quantico, if I can actually Cathy and their crime loud. Try to assist me in who they have to confirm see if we can get any which cause I'm afraid. He has probably been very difficult, because I would like to confirm that it is your son, I mean it. I would love to have DNA just have a kangaroo through the four Quantico. Then I have to find another agency can confirm But it is in fact human bound. And that would be an expert witness that can testify and our court system he resisted they have testified because I've had experts, they haven't winkie, won't let it go to Alabama to the expert person they have air.
That's the best. I have the networking of my mind if I have any say it all at this point, I request you to go with them. I dont network now, isn't it can go to more than one too there's nothing prevents them from going from one location or another. Besides, a train crash, Since then I would like it will go through a chain of costly to law enforcement. Right, I don't think you're gonna time paraded ass are modified, is just procedures actually goes and going through five or six people and don't get me wrong here. I could end up with three different opinions And if I had end with three different opinions and I'm in in bad shape, my witness says that it would be here is consistent with what he said. The witness de Bates is talking about is Kyle Barnes, but I will say this this
Only pick apart in a bit of a jury drop. It will all oh come up because I can prevent any of the northern you against us all along do from the very beginning. I will do everything in our power. We can. I just need the best export but I can put on the that I have full faith. I need to find the best expert that we can pass will yet because when I put them on the stand and they take cross examination, their acts the Berlin you up at the sky. They were real professional work. I got shipped from this case kidnapping
not understand your frustrations, tell me what we giddy and we can contact the Santer it all we know is. It remains negative: Saint Luke, Dixon, depressed Texan, depressed other Dixon depots, Turkey. One reason I would like to do through Quantico is yours rashly invariably, whereas on the other, the best in the world, but they carry
name recognise. Never do you have any other questions from income said now. Distressing debris had really out. So there's no way for some, like you, tells a family member without being really sure right. There is no way I would never put her through that at its very common for family members to demand side and they usually women, talk about Women's work. The emotional burdens Caring for the family and that extends well into death.
It's. Usually a mother or sister or daughter. That's pushing and unpleasant impression pushing to get a crime scene worked, investigators come out and so they're, usually on the site, as a consequence would never ever tell them. If I wasn't sure pull draw away and the energy in the air begins to ebb. Can I get some help? Let us hold out like that. The next the findings are all backed up by detective Lapierre Lynn funk, Hauser Nigh watch every carefully labelled fragment as it is placed into the paper police evidence. Bag. Another fragment catches, my eye, a bullet Kay labelled as a twenty two I had heard of it, but not seen it glass instantly recognizes it as a different caliber.
I want to show this to you sound like final We are getting ready for a photo So it was in the test unit. No there's a lot of time to call about what is it three? Eighty three eighty is larger than a twenty two, a catch. And it's not melted, though we thought it might be of interest and then these are all possible put possible. Both samples that we have there is a big one. Now you're what you're, not the other way round they'll be here. What I'm gonna do is some little Mason jars. Here, five Irma leaders each
to your dream, and soon found the police. The dig has come to an end, and maneuvering soil sampler into position at spots. Where Lynn, four from Canada and another team, and their samples, in places where they didn't have time to excavate more thoroughly. Travis works tarnish the gears all please go far. The sampler is a heavy hollow steel, tube about five feet, long with screw on the end that draws soil into it, as I turn a handle at the top but I eventually share the samples with two different cadaver doc specialists Kim Cooper. From Canada, and other team from Nevada by a woman named Mary Cable, specializes in burnt remains.
Hiding it into because two different antonyms, if not comes about rights as well as to do everything gets spot right there. I not dark is burned We will do some time for these samples to be assessed by the dogs, but if they, hit on any one of them, could help determine if Donny might be here. You
behind our good data, yeah. I know I want to. I want to keep in touch, so you know give me a call if you're, stressing or need to talk or an opinion on somethin yeah, yeah. I would like to see a thing I ever saw. You forget: jalopy gets home. I am like beyond beyond rents, beyond soaked beyond everything in soaked entrenches maintained, I thanked him for an I'm here You some such a sweetheart. He walked up to me long ago and I say:
I was okay and that he was so sorry and that I really hope that we can find the answers, and I thanked him and told him that I really appreciate him being here and you when, and he said he enjoyed being with you and helping to set up a circle nice good kid, they're coming, you could see in his eyes and he says pain. I get worried, just learning Walker s property here I don't think I can imagine. Being as worried about anybody, has had actually feel every inch of every part of your pain on this
probably all victims, family members will tell you that all they want to know is where their loved one is where they feel only came to rest. They there remains inside and in hand and they can have that perpetual, painful, unknown removed from their minds. Many will say that the house and the wise and delivery- have courtroom justice, almost don't matter Deborah, ass, the weight to know for sure if the fragments are Donnie but The discovery has already changed her posture. Her mood as you would relax after throwing down heavy back. Eggs from a long dark trip. While we wait, there's someone packing to do Police file offers some other directions, and for now
We drive off the Nobles Farm, Deborah doesn't look back, but she's not done you, listening to episode for fragments Is it CBC dossier, Slash S, K S to learn more about the Donnie is a case. You can also join our Facebook group and follow us on Twitter at S case CBC disk Deficits with others and discover exclusive content, someone know something is hosted, written and produced by me, David region this year.
This produced by Yunus Kim Chris Oaken Sessile Fernandez, with help from the Rihanna and canal Springer is our senior producer and the executive producer of CBC Podcast is our of neurons. Our theme song is, I once was a bird by June, the bird no then, sir nah.
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Transcript generated on 2020-06-03.