Hi, I'm draft block host of uncover escaping axiom from CBC Podcast. I pull back there curtain on the secretive self help groups that experts call a called and follow one woman's harrowing journey to get out the Prague Castle. featured in Rolling Stone magazine and named one of the best podcast of two thousand and eighteen in the Atlantic. Listen to uncover escaping next year on CBC, listen or wherever you get your podcast This is a CBC podcast follow. programme contains mature, subject matter listener, discretion, is advised you are listening to someone knows something from CBC podcast in Season five, I travelled north to Thompson Manitoba to invest The nineteen eighty six murder of carry Brown

This is a season. Five extra episode spread. The word it's early morning here lie I'm driving through Thompson, Manitoba once again, overcast about fourteen degrees, now Tommy Way to see Trevorvernon. My son's been nice up here. Man, I've been biking, walking, hiking kinds of good stuff. Yeah looks good thanks man since season five began Trevor, I have been receiving tips, we want to catch up on and we want to keep digging to the phone call civilian Arcy MP operator, Marny Schaefer took the early morning that carry was murdered, but

for we can get into anything more there's a bit of catching up to do Jim. How are you I'm good? How are you doing, Sir, all right, better know already arable and no other yeah, we're. Alright, I pass a beaming Jim Brown, leaning on the living room door frame and his Boston, Bruins, Jersey and fresh cropped hair. He smiled claps me on the back as Trevor moves past me me down the hall to take a on a coat in the living room keeps coming around here right, so right up to the door he plays with the kids out there. Just like a domestic dog. You come every day. He comes around he's in the neighborhood every day, a lot of times, he'll show up early in the morning yeah I said: x to carry stuffed bear on the couch with Trevor above us on the wall. Photos of carry one with Trevor Their brother in and

the painting of a raven by an artist named Jason Lucas. Given too by some Sks listeners that listeners, that is, did he paint that, just for so, how are we literally Arthur were thirty first, he painted it so that three recently the podcast, I say: ok, they all the up its den three of them paid for it And then brought it here on the evening of Halloween, that's really nice Trevor then pulls out a giant raven costume. He wore well leading the nickel days, parade for Thompson's annual Summer Fair festival it's great to be with Trevor again few things we need to do here, and Thomson first And a man who claims to have been on the scene, the night carried appeared from the Tread Street party this

the story that has been circulating around Thomson and I wanted to look more closely at it. First of all, you might have had some experience it might want to relate never interesting to hear so tell me what you know. invited the source of this trip over and we're all sitting side by side on the couch. The man. Next to nervously? Next to me, looks to be in his late early early s. His name is Wayne he says his story starts on the night: carry disappeared on Westwood, DR right, whereas Both crescent connects at the EU stand well. Night in question, What can the dog Trode avenue hits rainbow just metres away, so positioning himself within a stone's throw of the party carry was last seen at it starts

with a girl. He says, passes him on the street and girl passes me. She's wearing black pants parish, jacket, pirate ridden right here and I can see leopard right here, but already Trevor spies. A potential factual error, Jack you're on the right city, wrong team penguins, it might have been, it was a Pittsburgh Penguins jacket, it might have been color was her hair, I'm going to say bill, I believe she was wearing a baseball cap to am not sure that parties kind of fuzzy. I'm gonna say anywhere between ten fifteen and eleven fifteen, because I looked at my watch for some reason- and this is the night carries appear-

Wayne says he passes a girl who he suggests through his description is carry brown. That girl then continue. is passed, him walking out of sight and we never sees where she goes. He then continues short distance with his dog and then a familiar fig enters the story. Now I get, the top of rainbow- and I see my dog stop to take a p Some this car swings round stops under the light, pull limited was paid. Some nurse car at Sumner. According to this man drives up close by and parks. Are I read I got the car I recognized pack because I worked at the head frame. You hot in the car driving that car the greenish goal of river. it's a sandy sandy, goldfish, colored car. I see

not a girl, walk down, entail. Because I can see her legs and it's cold up and she's skirt, she started can towards me and turns gets into Pat Cox. I waved another woman approaches from the nearby pintail crescent. He says gets into Saunders Car, but the present had picked up that I believe, was Charlotte Chaselan someone he used to hang out with just last week. Like I know path, I ask path, I came out and asked them. To all these shares. I said you would there you turned around at the top of rainbow. You picked up Charlotte Chaselan. He turned looks at me and said. I have no memory of that. He has no memory that night whatsoever for that period of time

and that ITALY's, I told police when the whole interview carry emerald case. Somebody knows something came out: dangerous recorded, and that was it. They never came back He never asked any more questions. Nothing as a Charlotte, I shall are largely both Charlotte. Ok, sorry, it's David written calling thanks. So much for for doing this, I'm working on an investigative pod cast about the murder of carry brown up in Thomson a call Charlotte Chatelaine to verify this story Your name came up. Somebody mentioned that they had seen you that night closed would drive and rainbow, but at this point who told me they saw you. That they saw you getting into a car and the car was driven by Patrick Sumner. Do

Patrick Summer, I had just left my help. for a week visiting me he just left on Tuesday to good morning. Ok, ok, so that's interesting, so it would be October the night of October, sixteenth nineteen. Eighty six: do you remember picked you up say around ten thirty. Tat. My love and I didn't know pot. I didn't know part of that kind of fifteen years old pregnant and join me. This person said he saw Pat picking up at the corner right at that corner and he said that you had a stern on and high heels but that they are mistaken. Bryce I didn't know power, but my uncle I would highland towers that night. Okay. Do you think that it's possible this person who told me that he saw you get into Pat's car might have seen you couple years later, getting into pats car, ok likely

like at some point you might have gotten into Pat's car for sure. Well, we became friends. We became very close friends. I hung around with pot for forever Basically, since I was seventeen year old has no path is still a really good sense. Wonderful person is no way, there's no way that that path could have done something like that. There's no way he's one of the most gentle guys. I've ever know. You know Here we have an mean bone in his body. Get rid of it got the wrong person. And I hope and pray one day that they find out, who did that to carry. It was just a horrible horrible thing, Wayne's conviction that he had seen and experienced this night at the intersection close to trot avenue on the night. It carried disappeared, became theory that became, I believe, a rumor think it's one that can be dispelled and the basis of timing alone.

Dance could not have happened according to Charlotte because she didn't even know Sumner at the time and was pregnant. Two years after Kerry was murdered. Charlotte says she met Sumner for the first time. I didn't detect any hesitation in Charlotte's answers and she says a police did question her when she was seventeen and working the top some chicken chef because they noticed her spending time was Sumner. This will be Eighty eight is a rough. Eighty eight haven't a rough estimate. They haven't spoken to her, since the next from will require active help from listeners. A Thursday night NATO had brain tumor our friends in speaking to me from a residence and when a peg, she says The experience on the evening carry disappeared, bears much more scrutiny than she says. It has gotten from the RCMP around close to midnight. I would say these guys come in. There was five of them.

and they were wearing it. Bargaining jacket like there in a team like never before late. Thomson like I grew up. There's though We usually notice somebody that knew that you know we haven't seen around before right. Tamara says she worked as a cook and bartender at a couple of bars and Thompson in the nineteen eighties, including at A head frame, the bar she's, talking about now she was there on a night off. She says on the evening. They carry Brown disappeared October. Sixteen nineteen. Eighty six

How do you know that it was the same night to carry disappeared? How do you know it was the same Thursday night and Friday morning, because it was right after that car was fine like that weekend. It was like right there and then okay, do you remember what it said on the team or what the jacket said. I think the jackets are black and then the picture of the guy Kickboxing and what age would you say these guys were well eighteen and not for sure they were just young like we were all young. I had to been about nineteen at the time this guy. He came up to me behind me and he really ran really hard into my shoulder. Any points to me. Let's go down, I'm like after you like to know, and I turned around, and I just ignore them. Then he kept on looking

and he glared at me and any and then I heard him say: I'm gonna kill you, you better watch. It do not get away. answer anyways. I kind of I pushed it, though, when it came to the end, right now closing time and the girl, going out and they were standing there waiting for me. They see me and it was a white van and it was right great rate right up up by the. Right in front, I turn around. I went back in I'm scared to go. A few vehicles of interest had been seen than I carry disappeared. One of them was a white, and seen by Sean Simmons coming out, Stable roads with its lights off. Friend of mine, Harold, he pulled up in a truck. And I noticed that one that guy he was getting into the ban, though I believe

the door and I re running and jump in the truck and- and I told Harold, get the heck out of here. Don't take me home. I said I'm scared. I said I think these guys are out to hurt me and he took off. Did you see the direction the their van drove? Well, they followed us followed you towards the air, and then carried on. We took off like a bat embedded, the heck, but they were they were falling. towards the airport would take the van right past the entrance to the stable road loud I would be gone court. give him my liver, your pact airport in Divine going at a time, and so these guys followed you and ended. How? How did you lose them? Did you just go faster than they did her basket? and kept on going in. And finally, we didn't even many more like no lights or nothing. the following day only I can pick a they didn't have a for Doha. Wait till I went to work and

I called there and I told him what happened, because I was really scared and I'm not normally scared. So the day after would have been Friday. You called the RCMP and told them on the Friday that this has happened to you and, of course, carry's body had not been found until Saturday. Do you remember the name of the person you spoke to? You know? I know it was milk cop and nobody ever contacted me back. So I just figured well. I just figured it was a joke and then after when Carry's body was found and then days, weeks and months. What was going through your head? Did you sort of make a connection between those guys and carry ever? I thought for sure, but then they said they had somebody in custody. Oh then I just let it go, wouldn't it by kind of said they never ever contacted me the person please hadn't custody the following week was Patrick Sumner, private community team. I would they, like

all around the same age, they could have been school team. I don't know, but do you think that any of them had been drinking? did you see if any of them were? Oh yeah, they were all drinking okay, they were all in and you had never seen them before. No, never. report and did you ever see them again now everything again never saw the white man again I have yet to find Herald. The fellow tomorrow said Drover at the head frame that night to see He could add anything further, but try

done some work of his own. So the story about the group of guys at the head frame the night of carries murder. Yes, I did some digging around back. In the day there was only one martial arts club in Thompson, that was the Thompson Judie Club. They were the only martial art club. There was no kickboxing, there was no karate, yet no tiwanda, yet it came in the early ninety s I spoke with one of the teachers I got in touch with. He said absolutely. There would have been no tournaments going on in Thompson at that time at that time of year, because the club that was here at that time, Thompson Tudo Club, because there were one club in Northern Manitoba, they had to travel to go, compete against all the other clubs right yeah. He assured me that there wouldn't have been any reason for any type of club like that to have been in town. That night, I don't know I mean also. Could they have just been uniforms of some other sort and she mistook it for kickboxing? That's the other thing. It could be any a club jacket. I have seen some kind of club jacket while a lot of bands had their own jackets back in the day. I never thought of that band made their own. Like you see, people come in, you know where they were from. I would tell you, on the back of the jacket gods, Lake narrows to look out normally rosetting. The information out about tips like Tamaras can be as important. That's fully looking into them

these men and their van may have nothing to do with carries murder, but if Anyone listening can add to our back up aspects of tomorrow, Friends Tipp, please let me know. Having followed some of the viable tips, I've heard we just try to move on to a main piece of the brown case we discovered in the regular season. the phone call good morning, Mary how are you? I am good David here, I'm here with Trevor and Jim Brown were sitting in the backyard of their here here we decide to ask Marnie a few more questions about the call she received from the distraught man in the early morning. Hours of October 17th, one thousand nine hundred and eighty six The man who said he had just killed someone my We ve and Travers is that this person could very well be connected to the murder of carry brown ethics.

So what are the reasons this person would call on us from Norway House member number one wanting wanted to confess to them, but why? Because they were a friend, they had You know I mean I somehow had had a relationship with this previously or the guy. Let him off the hook line sir, like what was. What are your reasons that you come up Why would the guy want to speak to that? Member was probably calling Norway House when the members belonging to the night and there on call they could go home as early as eight o clock at night, but I can not only we can they d out till midnight here, whatever I had come in the car when they go home, they had a murder or their Cobb get diverted to open, and we are now in

answer the phone people from the outlying areas. We don't say normal house detachment, we say Thompson Detachment, so this guy in all likelihood, was not calling Thompson detachment. He was calling Nora House detachment because that's who we asked for with the member in north you're right, it could have been this member stopped him and he had a good relationship in that stop or he she knew him or I lean towards the fact that he totally did not trust me, but he had complete trust in this specific member that he wanted to know that it does that,

He knew him. How well I don't know, but well enough for him to trust him. So I think that, with this number listening to his voice on the phone, like, I say, the static, the hand holding the phone to the Hey You know it's not that clear, and I bet you anything if he would have come to the detachment. He would have probably recognize that voice. So that's my Ok, that's really interesting. The diversion thing think that speak to intent. the collar a little bit and just to be very clear. The collar asked you for a specific name, not just a member. I now number that's who were left for now and anything else. What you think other than looking into the hours trying to get into the can now more than we are You Trevor as well and your dad

I'm sure you feel that it was more than one person. One person could not have helped carry down in the vehicle and drove at the same time that ludicrous around the baby girl. Now she he would have done something and We have to be more than one person, and you know when it's more than one person in all likelihood. Somebody You know like the show to know something, and sometimes that you know that person, then else and it may and up getting to a fifth person, that's removed from the whole situation five times. Or whatever, and they start hearing this on the radio it brings it all up. Then you start with a small community. You start getting the gossip, You start getting. Oh yeah remember when to stir the pot to get things going.

The only way that something in a coma Trevor, Jim and I agree wholeheartedly with money. So Basically, I am driving our house get ok and we decide to get on the road to Norway House all right, what will see later by so Jimmy

so we're on our way out of Thompson here. Norway house is about a five hour drive from here yeah, it's a bit of a winding road. I wonder if anybody else heard the person making that actual phone call that night. That's the other question. I'll, be honest. I never thought about it. Did someone else put up up to that? I I doubt that did somebody help them decide to make that call. There may be nothing connecting Norway House other than this guy saying a member from Norway House in this phone call. So, instead to be careful, yeah, that's skeptical about anything. We hear sense chance sensitive to the approach. Marnie saying the call had been redirected has no.

thinking about who else other than Norway House Residence. Might need to have contact with Norway House police. Some of the outlying communities close by or Maybe the whole Norway has connection, is a massive red herring. Hopefully, we'll find out more your vote. Diner we arrive in Norway House, an indigenous community nestled on the north shore of Lake Winnipeg, and enter a local restaurant, packed with a lunchtime crowd we're here. to meet Lillian Arsenal. She grew Norway House, and wants to help us anyway. She can he's been living away from the community and Southern Manitoba for many years, but return periodically for family and friends and now for us she's. es chaos listener and worked with Marny at our C m p h: q at the core.

center in is Trevor. Name is Trevor. You we all down to alight deep, fried lunch. Wearing glasses, shorter, quick thinking and intensely personable Lillian easy to talk to you off the bat and afterward finished eating, we say,

together to see if we can find out more about the collar and who they were calling. So the person who called learning the distraught male, who she says, had an indigenous accident rate. He called her on that early Friday, the seventeenth nineteen eighty six right. He said I just killed somebody I need to speak to and our sea impey member from Norway House right now. My house, detachment, Marny, couldn't even remember the surname by she said it was last something that she remembered. I augur she said, love friend neuroscience yes, but it was not. I immediately I thought of jus laughing here because he used to be here, I spotted when he had gone forward already by the name of an they could marny couldn't remember, but I figured out that the members name is MIKE the brassiere Michael, a browser. It's MIKE Le Brass. You not allow the browser, no, it's MIKE Grass, I'm sure it's might, because I spoke to a cousin of mine. She knew the members here and she said to his name was weak and I'm on me what is called the earthy MP mates and I think he might be retired by yeah. So I need to know how to contact Michael browser if you're pretty servants Michael abreast, MIKE Lapis, your lover, Sir right out, o labourer sir says I had left messages for an elaborate sir, but have yet to hear anything back so that this person was a white officer. Ok, French! So is there anybody else here who would have worked with might like that would have still be here, probably like indigenous or otherwise? Well, that's why I was that's why I was going to the ban constables because they are the ones that would still be here, they're, probably often retired already. There is only one that I am thinking, of course not build a climate that I mentioned to you. Bill Macleod, isn't here in Norway House anymore, so I'll have to try to see him on the way out where he lives in when a pig but there's another man who does live here named Alvin Ferland

we drive to his house, a man who, appears to be in his late forty s approaches in a plaid shirt and a baseball cap. I want to introduce you to somebody in This is David, I'm David nice to meet you. These are. This is Trevor and my son Owen, here, hello hi. There I work for a CBC and I'm doing documentary that I think you might maybe be able to help me with about poet, I'm out in the hopes that the story of the car might start to jog memories? I go to poor Marny story without even knowing Think of the members. around the emerald minds. So good yeah retorted me down with his mind is that right, Henry must wagon also worked as a band constable and Alvin says he lives close by He's got a The members who were here at a cup update on ethics and Sir the term it open.

Is that all members he's got the members of everybody that started on this detachment that is really and he's got in fact, Henry lives right next door. We drive for thirty seconds and pull up along gravel driveway in front of a yellow aluminum cited bungalow. Lillian suggests that it's better, if only I approached with her, so Trevor agrees to stay in the car, David love. This one I don't know where you want to start: we could probably go somewhere quiet and I did that. Could we take the step with you? I'll put you in your worship they and pushes Henriette onto the front. Porch is wheelchair. He looks to be in his early eighties Turn around so that he's out of the wind variable.

So Henry. I work for CBC, Canadian Broadcasting, public radio. I go through carry story, I'm trying to figure out who was the member that they called here nineteen eighty six of october- What were some of the names? You remember any names of the people here in eighty six, but what about her Yeah This news so the is that you have you have it here? Do you have that list. no, but you re check review. sure name Henry says: he gave the list to someone at the r c m p detachment idle

what he called a sergeant who told me he couldn't help. I must just another member on Facebook, but the RCMP Media Relations Department in Winnipeg messages me back telling me not to contact their members, doesn't Like their willing to share and lists, misdemeanours you most before leaving town, we were able to schedule a quick meeting with Norway House Council member Darlene Osborne thanks for coming to see us yes, so last time we talked about how and by this case- and I was also working on Travers Sisters case. Yes, the sound quality from this meeting is unfortunately, not great, but the come of it is that Darlene promises Trevor that she will do all she can help get the word out about carries case and the phone call.

a lot of people. Remember now that I know your name, they will know we we try to help anyone that needs her help as well. You know is be more sore the same thing. With carries case when there are so many cases of missing and murdered indigenous women to contend with touches. both trevor- and I. well, we'll stay in touch. Okay, stay in touch right! Well, yes, thank you! So much! Yes, if someone listening, here's something that triggers a memory, I hope they'll come forward Making inroads into small communities of any kind is difficult and takes time. Patient is required on all our parts.

I told the court that I'm running through them there's too much hidden from you. It could be taken out of the course there's too much. He was one small man and a giant wheel cut. Well. I do wish to say that it's official that I'm unfully in prison right now uncover season seven dead wrong. They asked him if he killed people. He said yes, I'd be next available on CBC, listen and wherever you get your podcasts hi, I'm Josh lock host of uncover escaping axiom from CBC Podcast. I pull back, there Curtain on the secretive Self Health group that experts call a cult and follow one woman's harrowing journey to get out the podcast was, featured in rolling Stone magazine and named one of the best podcast of two thousand and eighteen in the Atlantic. Listen to uncover escaping next year on CBC, listen or wherever you get. Your pot cast the stuff smoke. Weedin drivers, personal

the most are you wanna take by late. I guess the priority is finding out who the collar was, but too is also very interested in what they are seen pure doing on the dna front. Hard to know what dna they have to start with, because Trevor doesn't have a copy of carries autopsy arson, and the Manitoba Medical Examiner's office at this time. We're continuing Fight against releasing it to the Browns great to see you guys got any gets you where we will be at your figure. I drop Trevor, often Thomson and I say my goodbyes to him and Jim. It's always to leave walking out of the little house that carry used to live in. I had to a peg to see if a cloud can offer any help

just telling into building here and when a pig turn a fun Billy Macleod to see. If you can help shed some light on who make the browser like the earth he remembers. The phone call was made by many that lay Hey there looking for building my cloud bill, he says the far ends on the First board: okay, great back to an hi there. Looking for billing, the cloud is: okay. Billy firstly to see a doctor producer I'm working on a case

want to talk to you about, because I understand it used to work as our constable. In the nineteen eighties near here, ok I'm working on a podcast about a murder that happened in Thompson, nineteen, eighty six again I go through the carry brown story and the phone call Marny received its impact. To tell the story to as many people as I can and I trying to find MIKE La browser or whoever took that call. Do you remember anything about I remember well I remember that I think I was living in Thomson at the time but I was out of the RCMP then in in six. Oh six, like I got out and eighty four Marnie said that the person she as likely was trying to call Norway has and it was rooted. And that's why she got the call that probably would because that would have been our headquarters

at the time like sort of what because her for all, northern communities where it would go. So in nineteen. Eighty six was Norway, host the only RCMP Detachment on detachment. A big road and Guarana Jolly was just Nora. so you would police the other little community. We looked at her thirteen communities out and Norway out, ok, which communities them there's garden now and shameless sing. Three step Sucker were shaken MAC, Os Warehouse Gods Lake. cross leg, yeah. Forget that me greatly

that's the guy in Thomson. Does it Gregoire grandma River? ok, Corporal Gregoire, Endorphin, ok, I feel every person I'm talking to his incremental slowly in the search for the original collar and the receiver of monies call. I wish the process was easier, but this is how this story unfolds alone. you're, either at home or raping the phone, so things leaving not each there, I'm looking for a Mr Greg wire who used to work in Norway House back in the eighties, for they are MP origin are simply member money David written, I'm calling from CDC. Oh hi, is this Mr Gregoire definite, there are you, Mr Gregoire, that used to work in Norway has. I am

That is amazing. That is amazing. I'm working on the case carry brown who was murdered. Toxin back ten. Eighty six does that ring a bell. I was I wasn't in our house in eighty six. Okay, Gregoire was in Norway, House and nineteen eighty two and he does who was there are nineteen eighty six, but he does to what Billy Macleod was saying. the policing, the outlying communities we should find almost spots. Vague reserves are, and so we are sending to men, every week for five days it was busy visibility. to be somebody from Norway House that was calling the detachment from Thompson. Yet if they murdered to crown and talk, and they're from Nora House. That would be the only explanation why they would

you call on a member in Norway House- is that he would be still in Thompson yeah, but they called the familiar detachment. It's either they they had driven there or they had called right from Thompson very shortly afterwards, they seemed anxious and concerned. Are you recording this? Are you recording this? They were saying to the person, but the can was a a confession, was I'd. It wasn't. I know that a murder just happened. It was I just killed somebody, so it was pretty specific and in cases like that, would you accept that the collar is telling the truth. I would think so that they did They know that may know who did it, because it was sad coaster. The time of the murder and the time of the phone call didn't, kill him. They would kill her. They were there but to make up all, even if it was something that was so badly

they would have known. Who was being that close? We do have always had people that were met to killing or doing some crime, but if it was from a medley that didn't do, it would be way up to the case because they catch him upon. Details right as they would have read up on it or something this was before anybody ever knew. She was missing. This car came: this came and before any publicity about her at all. finding the collar is the most important thing, but there's other updates carry Topsy report. A tremor stated so we got a guy an email on Friday and

Basically, the we're getting began. We're gonna be repeating our formal letter on Tuesday The lawyer for the office of the chief medical in diameter and a letter will indicate that they are going to be giving us the entire Tom he gave honour adapted while great Trevor and his father Jim retained when a peg lawyer Kevin toying who worked pro bono, to get this autopsy from from the medical office office. had previously had a copy of the autopsy but lost it in a move. While he lived in Winnipeg our c m p blocked access to the new request, but now the medical examiner is releasing it to the browns. With some strings attached some stipulations. If I read correctly in the letter states, basically I can't I can't allow anybody else to look at it and use it

nuclear? Does that make the utmost likely stipulations? Doesn't that a possible stipulating embryo once Trevor? Go the report he didn't talk to me about its contents, and I didn't ask him about it, but so months later, very recently. In fact, I received package in the mail printed envelope of some bulk. From Jim Brown delight when twenty and a moment have been putting off for weeks, is here I'm sitting in my home in Toronto, with an envelope I received from Jim Brown, from Thompson, Manitoba Hand and pray. sure, what's inside us, carry rounds autopsy I have avoided This envelope served open. It

also in the envelope. another envelope, It's another brown envelope inside a smaller one, different colors it hasn't been opened. and there's a little handwritten note on it it's like Jim, didn't greeted printed Jim Brown, printing little pen, twenty five th, hello, David hope all as well with your family. I will be brief. As usual, the star was sent to me. I have no interest in it you in some small way, if not just a friend nephritis came out suddenly. Sorry I'll try that again.

I have no interest in it. It may help you in some small way of not to destroy your friend James, a Brown. People always ask me how cases affect me, and here is a perfect example. Suddenly out of the blue, a strong emotional reaction to something seemingly minor? a reminder of how it affects families, their communities and the police that look at these cases every day here, is the autopsy report so there's a single page. To be a handwritten summary. and then there's typed documents, the type document. Six pages long and the handwritten documents. One page long

body discovered a two ten p m by two. Ladies riding horseback. This will be the Saturday here's the type or this typed report was written October 20th, one thousand nine hundred and eighty six at one thousand one hundred and twenty five. I was just reading it now. I can see why didn't worry this describes, Andres. evidence of external trauma. Internal examination, waiting the organs, that's interesting and horrified.

very obvious that carry had an incredible amount of force apply to her smile is possible. What the autopsy does confirm here, a lot of samples were taken and time and neck and six dna was just in its infancy and I pretty sure that these samples were not taken with reference to dna, but were taken some very significant samples to me. which is a good thing. Now, where are those apples? And how are they being used? Now is the question, That's a pity account on reader and see the stuff.

The autopsy starkly shows like never before the unmitigated violence and anger that was directed toward carry by her assailants a vicious sleep powerful assault that, through the cold printed words here must point towards a specific assailant profile. I will now dive all to any detail of it beyond what has already been publicly revealed in media or by the police, except a Importantly, that the autopsy, Confirms that many samples were taken from carry an per Presumably these samples could contain the dna of her killers. I'm going to use that information. I'll now know what they have. I call the RCMP as part of evidence and I can put their feet to the fire with regards to getting more uptodate dna testing done, including Trevor has contacted several private dna forensic labs across North America. Each has pledged that they will help the RCMP if they're contacted by them.

The issue of some of the DNA being mixed from the different assailants is a major problem. Dna lapse have encountered from the beginning, but now new techniques developed by these private labs could be of assistance and it can kind of help take a picture of how many individuals might have been involved and especially if they collect DNA. from her body and whatever they, whatever they found under her fingernails. All that DNA tells story It was what he knows from the autopsy Trevor decides to write a letter to our sea MP, commissioner, Brenda Lucky to ask for her personal intervention into the case, I don't know how it is how quickly this all moves along now, the in his letter Trevor asks for a comprehensive investigation and follow up into the phone call Marnie received in the early morning, hours of Friday October, the seventeen to nineteen. Eighty six, and he also asks for an open discussion about dna and viable. of modern options available to the RCMP,

on May twenty Eightth, twenty twenty Trevor saved a single page, typed reply from assistant, commissioner, Jane Micheletti, the command officer of Division and when a pig in that letter Macleod, she states that, regarding the phone call. A complete investigation and follow up has been done both at that I am, of the initial investigation and again recently The collars identity is known. The statement has been taken for, Third, the collars dna does not match any sample on this investigation. Investigators have exhausted all avenues regarding this information This information directly contradicts what we heard from investigators on the brown case. From Marny who read the file and whose broke over several years, two officers who said they had also read the file mark.

Read this letter that Trevor got back from the assistant. Commissioner Jane Micheletti, so I guess the first question is: how do they know the identity of the collar I will not down in the file about what I had passed on or anything like that, so I'm kind of perplexed by that as well as when John Chow, I don't know anything about it, John is adamant that he never heard anything about it. If he did, he would have done something about it, and years later, when Urbanowski He had the file and was going through it. He never anything on the file urban ascii was a key Arcy MP investigator who helped solve the Helen Betty Osborne CASE and

was brought into the brown case to review the file. He told me that mention of a phone call in the brown file was not something he recalled to number one? I was not interview, no statement or anything else taking from the number two that tape was, confiscated and held because it would be the real page, not a copy of the page if it never had to go to court and Bob Urbanowski never saw anything like that in the file. That tape was not moved I mean if they took a copy of it, they would have taken the original real as well. So I think it's odd, especially with Urbanowski saying that he didn't see it years down the road he never

anything if there was information that was taken initially at the get go at the beginning of the investigation. It would have been in that file. Bob Urbanowski would have. I'm surely noticed it, that's not just something. What color is a car? How many people years down the road are going to remember what color that car was in a file somebody saying that they killed someone when, that person was murdered. That, surely, is something that you know. People are going to remember when John to says no. You know I didn't know anything about this when I know that he did because I told him You know when that happens, and then you have headquarters saying oh saying: oh yeah investigated it's just. I don't think there's much honestly. Coming from any.

don't John, to said to me that he did not investigate the call and never heard about it? It. is a possibility that toast forgot about what Marny says. She told him. Could it also be possible some one else investigated and neither toast nor Dennis healed the two in charge of the investigation knew about it, I recall John Toe saying he left the Thomson detachment about two years after carry was killed, That suggests that the call might have been looked into two years later after toast left the person you talk to on the phone and held the phone, not so that they could listen to it from Norway House. The member there. and recognise the voice the day after you got it. So how are they going to recognise the voice? Two years later,.

from a recording who knows where it is just there's too many questions and real real with the original recording that would be reused after a few months. That's not that sitting down there in a two year span and it's still sitting in some place of constant attachment. It's been bulky raised and reused. It's not there, so where do they get it from? If the member identified this voice, miraculously he has a take close listening to the page, he knows what, Voice sounds like it belongs to. I don't know to me. It really doesn't make any sense because they would need that tape

in order to do that they couldn't go up to him even a year. After the fact. Oh yeah remember that voice. He listened to on the phone when you were talking to Mary. Who do you think it is well he's not going to because he didn't know at the time? Okay, so then who did they talk to and did they take their dna, then and now even reading into that that one sentence further the key DNA does not match any sample on this investigation. Well, if they have mixed dna, did they get that sorted out, and my biggest thing is the fact that you could have had, let's just throw it out there. You have four people out there, you can about two, DNA where they actually had done something To carry and dna without the scene or on her body, you had two people standing back

Not many. But here present, that to me I mean just thinking about scenario. Is this guy that called the fear in his voice? We've talked about it. Before I mean this was somebody who was terrified of being caught and obviously had some sort of feeling that what happened here was wrong, I have to talk to something about it, so he Could have been a bystander, but could have been there so just to throw that out there and say that the callers p does not match. What does that? I saying I just killed someone right

Implies they did have hands on physically on carry that? That would apply to me. Their conscious was so guilty that they watched other people, murder or in their mind site. They essentially killed her because they want to be murder, that's possible too. I guess I mean you know I could have had no hand and ollinger now on his knee any with rain. Rain, so many different things going on here, and I think that just opens up the door for more questions. my wife? they've identified the color and they cleared them of they involve Yeah My file How did you

first learned about a phone call or reached out to China marry, but when I Jane. She I'm mad at. He scolded me for contact ignoring us actually about it, but when I told her about it, I told her. You need to go, find that phone call that phone call is in the file tanner. You need to go find it. We need to play it right on robbing man. Let everyone hear a lot of clearance. You're not Yoda by one part of that organisation. may I have your running down for you at that time. Anything told that you should not have talked to someone in more house was absolutely wrong. You have the right to talk to any detachment. Any member anywhere about what happened to your family and try and come up with an answer.

That's your right and you shouldn't be told that you shouldn't have done that and be school like a child, I mean I'm sorry, but that one bothers me So just regarding the caller or what farming. I dont know if our sampling found the person who called Marny in those early morning hours, nor do I know what our sea and Pierre doing with the samples they collected from the stable road crime scene. Marty says she played the call for a Norway how Sarcey MP member when it came in. That member have independently investigated the collar at the time with telling anyone or including it in the investigative file. I sent the are simply a letter about all this, but they didn't have answers to my questions and refer

so tell me anything more. What I do know is that carries murder happened thirty four years ago, and I also know the gems health is failing. An infusion of renewed cooperation and trust, could do a lot to move not only carries case toward justice, but also per family reconcile with itself and with its terrible loss, can hunting the truth, and ourselves is as important as getting into a courtroom. the process of solving is as important as the solution Trevor earn Jim and I welcome we need to do what we can to follow upon tips and try to the conversation going someone knows who killed, carry brown and they problem we need to talk. Much as we need to hear them

You ve been listening to a season. Five extra episode spread the word. If you information on the murder of carry brown email asset s key asset, CBC dossier Orkut attacked us anonymously? Using CBC is secure drop, page checker, and twitter pages to see Trevor's letter to the RCMP and their replies just serve for someone know something you can ask. catch up on past seasons of someone knows something CBC, don't see a slash s k S or wherever you get your podcast Someone knows something is hosted, written and produced by me, David region. The series, produced by sessile Fernandez, Yunus Kim. oak and executive producer are of Ronnie. our theme song is Thompson girl by the tragically

Thompson. Girls rented at the unique motel Thompson girl when a fighter shot on the car as well looks like Christmas. At fifty five degrees is latitude weekends. My knee Thompson girl. For more CBC, podcast go to sea BC, dossier, Slash podcast