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#ICYMI - Golf Science, with Geoff Ogilvy and Neil deGrasse Tyson

2017-10-12 | 🔗
Aerodynamics, Doppler radar, laser tracking, and big data! Gary and Chuck find out how science has guided the evolution of golf, from why balls have dimples to how clubs are designed, with astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson and, from the PGA Tour, 3x world golf champion Geoff Ogilvy.Don’t miss an episode of Playing with Science. Subscribe to our channels on:TuneIn: tunein.com/playingwithscienceApple Podcasts: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/playing-with-science/id1198280360GooglePlay Music: https://play.google.com/music/listen?u=0#/ps/Iimke5bwpoh2nb25swchmw6kzjqSoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/startalk_playing-with-scienceStitcher: http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/startalk/playing-with-scienceNOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can watch or listen to this entire episode commercial-free: https://www.startalkradio.net/all-access/golf-science-with-geoff-ogilvy-and-neil-degrasse-tyson/

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Skip the commercials support star talk on patriarch to listen to every episode, Commercial free. I am the other Ass Thyssen, your personal astrophysicist, the startup network, is pleased to present to you, a U show where the universe ends and now, I am so nice, I am very alike, and We are the host of late sire ready for it. Today we have to drive ourselves, bring our own chips and I will get my own tea, which will be splendid. Ah, yes, we will be
both for our own schools and things could get a little rough yeah, but never fear. Ogilvy is here in the shape of Jeff Ogilvy, a golfer who is in his time ranked number four in the world an owner of not one not to not three. Yes, three world championships. Unless we get today smooth operator, who is all back of the Gulf Buggy with his feet up its course, our very own Neil digress, Thyssen, let's get straight to a showered upon the first T, Jeff Ogilvy, a man who, when the EU is open in two thousand and six Jeff, where were the prime science like you, and we also have Thus the man himself, the myth, the legend. I have just decided to start calling him rocky man. Rakkeed man is here with us and is none other than our very own doktor kneel to grasp.
With any outta here can be rocket, knew how you do you need extension and also to work romantic, but anyway this may not end well, but let's, let's try getting up on a good just to be clear. I know physics, but I dont know Gulf I'm happy to bring the physics to the Gulf when necessary, but always keep my mouth shut. This whole interview we do. This is the perfect combination that isn't going to take each other to school. Ok, that's the interesting bit here which is different from schooling. Right, forget, school, listing a murderer and burning down, and none at all. But it take you to school Their total tells us as to whether this really sympathy and allow for just a quick thing. You said not one, but two but three year there are certain tribes in the world where that do not count anything beyond three such as one two three and then many
the others. You know they don't care. Scott Sensible and, as you know, there are fifty four hundred is more than what more do care about here. I will not get my hand yeah. All three is good and galvanise the as my mother and by the way that means you have to win just one more championship, Jeff and then it'll just be many many. I wonder how many of you have many occasionally here in New York and I'm think him, because you got the lovely cap and a sweater on that. It's all about the president's cop. So let us not exactly what's going on what is the present scare stories because some of our listeners, arduous sports fans, but there
Maybe just discovering golf somewhat, president of what President CUP is, I'm the president. It adds a case I well, I guess. If I've been on this planet for awhile, I guess you probably have heard of some echo the Ryder CUP Absent, which is yes, basically, the european tour versus the? U S to engulf yeah, I'm kind of up
bragging rights, kind of thing has been going on for a really long time and that become a really really big event, but that's owned by the page of America, the page, a tool which is really kind of the powerful organization which kind of runs the tour on a regular basis, gonna wanna, to getting on the mix that I created their own thing called the President's cup which the? U S, tame versus everyone else in the world, except for Europe, which is quite a lot of good Gulf, is generally this forefather top ten in the world of this out of that sort of area the world soda. To created this event, I think in the early nineties this is about Nano ten. Every two years, every other erotic up here, so it some this year at Liberty, national witches staring at the statue of liberty and thus the scar on a New York has to be the very best golf club in the world outside of any other golf club. I own society
Yes, why that was well done ways it man, this guy. He knows what he's doing with saying down I'm kind of Wall Street. Why wait battery park? We get a fairy every day and beautiful. If anyone ever wants to see professional Gulf is actually get truly. Passionate. Guttural presents copper, can't because it means a lot more when you play for he's gonna win when what answer internationals, you go where we are be resident. Does it refer to all of the above? The president's the monies every president has ever been forty five of them for forty five of the American presents cup. Yellow camps are em
Plasma ignore that you as I had another name, and it was a good night S and have one set. I've never go. Ok, so jealous trying list one rainy back into a little bit. A sense is the big one thing in your career as a professional leave gun that really change the game and economy. The science, the technology that really thought- that's really elevated at our while here I mean they might not be a sport, the tat, the kind of money thrown at our day that Gulf has equipment by mechanics and physiology psychology, turf management, minutes, surmising sport for the science and research sort of things, but the technology with ball and the driver. The equipment especially has been it's. It's a completely different sport, we're playing now than it was twenty years ago now, where it, but there may sports, where you introducing new technology, and it was as you can do, that
not traditional. We gotta go back to the way you do is golf just completely open to whatever will improve the game from one year to the next and there's some tribunal saying none and it's interesting them in their ruling bodies that seem to be the tribunal, and I cannot control the shadow like that. Do in the world. I big brother out there, but there's a debate. I guess I mean Gulf is the same for a really long time on really all school golf courses play with woods and almost handmade stuff
recent neither called woods while they were would, in actual fact that's not some stretch of vocabulary, is actually a literal description, yam and adjust. I guess the commercial. It's such a popular game. The commercial kind of realisation of we could sell a lot of these gulf of then we might go further and make amazing they had so right. It's been a massive the progress since kind of mid nineteen eighties Yang huge, what's taken it further ball or the clubs in terms of the technology and advancement and end with that follow up. I know you have a favorite ball and I want to know why ok yeah, while main really it's a combination, probably more than anything because their master, combining bowls and drivers with Gulf is second to match. The whole thing I mean there's a few things, I'm ok, I didn't tell me custom drivers and custom ball.
Do I and how very very adjustable with lots of variable, so you can get different heads different, laughed different, shaft, different white, different grip differently. Would you d speaking in tongues of anything changes? Syllables coming out of his mouth thing is: if Europe, if you're a guy, can really hit the ball along wires and on a drive, you gonna have a particular type of club and go with a particular type of set up on the ball, because the wheel for a layman, you thinking the boldest import. Yes, we understand that and they're all the same, but they are that they come in various set patents. They do remain. For all intents and purposes, I guess the better. You are the more difference of all nikes thou there. That's because, if you suck, it does not make a difference, how dimpled or what pattern of dimple the ball has because you suck, but if you are highly proficient those small
changes to the physically. The bar can actually become a measurable difference in your game. Incredible visible, different visible J, incredible lazy. So I guess this too there's a few things that make a vulgar far and straight and its speedy talent I thank you doctor who come to me when you need when you leave this declared spade display. The club has moving where the club, the bull, hits on the face of the hidden them rise, sweet spot or like awake, a spot which can affect line and spin and speed and drag on the ball in the air. So before we go any further, since we have world were now astrophysicist Doktor Neil digress, Thyssen sittin here. Can you please break down just so that those listening to know what the effect of dimpling a ball will have? Why does it make the ball go farther and if
change the pattern of the dimple. What with that do? But I know that I think you should get NASA on this. They can do you turn on new technology. They get above it Edel Rockets in it, and then you can go Five miles around, I still think these improvements awaiting, but a correctly from. Here from reading the history of golf, the Gulf was used to be just perfect little spheres like any or all we play with, and people discover just just accidentally, really that that highly used balls. That role during the next were traveling farther than perfectly new. Balls that had no blemishes on them at all, no, no nicks and dings, and so they decided to exploit this fact and figure out what kind of Nixon things would make it go farthest and it turns out that they are dynamics around a perfectly smooth ball. They are sort of hugs the surface
volume when it comes to the back, creates a partial vacuum and puts drag yes or strategic error dynamic drag. But if you put dimples on it, it breaks up right on the surface of the bullet breaks set up so that by the time the EP is a rotating So by time the arrogance to the back its it doesn't create the same vacuum that it would if the ball were smooth now, the opposite effect is true, if the balls not spinning but you're, not this, not that never happens westward. So the balls, not spinning if you had a big ball, that look like was cone heads that they used to wherein the bicycle races. Yet you know yet aerodynamic right. If you do that, then you control the flow of aid. Already the back without any kind of drag it all, but that's not how it it's a round ball is welcome had by right, has committed by the way.
My favorite Saturday Night LIVE Sketch, CALL had bought a decision were sitting here and I sincerely I bring that nice nice nice touch. This suggests. Don't you talked about the development of idols Earl, so that's all. I can tell you about the ball now, if you're going to have patterns of dimples on balls, which definitely more subtle, effective, what I'm describing that's beyond might physics one or one so the dimple actually outside its cool that I just said on ignorant and now it's cool, would you just there and by the way it is called, is moving on from that? No, you long enough to know that that's cool it all Jeff when you talk about so Gary said there are patterns, rightly said that the size of the dimple very she's, not additional standardized patent around the ball and depends on the on the dimples and snatch knows generally from what I understand it somewhere around four hundred dimples, ok, somewhere
they used to sell him, would like three ninety two or three eighty four, like the end, they met a dimples on the ball in that area in size from one. At that moment, you look at it that all of the same yes, but there is little patterns of triangles and big ones in small ones, indifferent dip dimples young people to different sizes. Even on the same ball yeah I have different sizes in diameter and different sizes in depth. The guy's been thinking the guys have been going. Like you said the lawyer, so, that probably only makes a difference to somebody who is on a level of play their unbelievable. I have to say I'm anyone whose play golf would understand that a balkan care to the left and be a hooker, Lastly, I sly wrought Hannah Dimple patents managing to create these days. Actually so correct that a little bit so there was going to bring all will be looking into the left trays and it won't actually go back the other white, but it will stop curving now stop going strikes.
What the guys are like when it comes to when you redesign a ball and making do certain things that you have just described the top and players, I'm going to include you in that Jeff you're, happy about that you'll start to think. How can I use that to my advantage, because if it's a self correcting ball, I know I can do something with that for my advantage of the guys work that out yet Definitely may well. You shouldn't be like bandit, like beckoned he's, gonna locker macro man. I'd hearing, I know that's the way, you'd be thinking for sure, I'm in it say for those of us who grew up with the oldest stuff. Yes, the evolution of golf equipment was the linear, if you like cattle over my day right and measurable and put back and by day the evolution of Gulf Britain was a fairly linear improvement until mid eighties and a guy called Constance, all high move started a pink company. Yet actually, I think was a rocket scientist of some
Oh milk has completely changed the guy. He shouted to technology move the white outside on islands and he was more of a golf club God, but he took a massive step forward and since then it's been changing so those of us who grow up with a bull that continue to curve which still color re training. Our instincts to trust. I don't want to have as much attention to two and then you would I just your shot accordingly right or leave your shot the same accordingly, depending upon what you know, the ball will do we just hopefully you gradually adjust to how far you knew ball is going, how much the wind has the cross. Wind, yes, is quite important for us in the modern ball, gets hit a lot less by across wind, that's which I assume is influence less invite Asia.
To use the right terminology hit the ball it influences at their influence in does a lot less than it used it now. Can you talk about club development? We did a show recently took an eye with tennis rackets and they may think was prince came out with them back in the eighties again, the large ahead, which made it largest sweet spot right. Are they able to do that on a golf club together largest sweets? But could you talked about it just before about you, gotta find it on the sweets, but all the time to get a strike that you want. Yet I have, I guess traditionally, golf clubs we're just really simple small and before they really did any of us, this kind of law this this kind of high speed, camera, scientific research of impact and kind of what happens at impact with the boy
They were really small and you have you had a sweet spot, maybe the size of a nickel, maybe where it would go optimally yeah, namely that our optimally, obviously because an oily nickel or an american nickel wherever Fox it ok, but would you knows it's acres went limited to baseball players and we talk to the tennis player as they say the same thing you know. Second, you fit it through the vibration or lack of and by urea. Do you or your same feeling both you can tell instantly. If you ve got a rural, I mean it's the same with a lot of stuff right, but we get pretty tuned to that. I as if there's a friend of mine, a train or actually who play baseball, and he said when you hit the ball in that's right spot. In writing. There is no vibration and the ball goes four hundred feet.
And he said then he paused. Is it it's better than sex? What does the European Sea the baseball hit areas a catch of a blue jays? Yes, he said are not just from from the Houston s roses. It was like a handful of bees if he hit every heavy runway, hadn't wrong. He was like a learned, his lesson, ass shooters, where I'm did everything? Yes, so one when we get until like shot tracking Lukas, so in principle, we do that. Yes, we do that this idea that the Balkans not curve in the way you thought it would I'm just imagining a future where it's nothing but a game of trick shots like an billiards. If you have you gone with both the ball, my you know I'll, just yet all the trees of ITALY's curve it around every Reno. Do it put some English shouted to the left and do it recording about many things don't put in English on. It doesn't sound like Why not I mean so that
I know you guys are tracking shots. Using several different technologies were doppler. Is one of them? What are they doing with Doppler in the PDA? Well, when we first started,
When they start a really chasing the r and d in the golf club on the golf ball, they started working at they needed to take all the data from impact from the state of the club. Where hits all things that I have to taking photos of impact, and then I thought well would be much better if we actually, after the first knew what the bowl did in relation to what happened to the ball with that far out, so that they create a little thing. Doppler right out of the back of the ball, that you put gonna, put behind way, you're hitting shot, and you just hit shots and measures club spade Club path ball spade both flight. It follows the hull flood of the ball until it finishes started with three d analytics helped with the swing and then the speed of impact studies do teacher golfer not just to swing but to swing but to get maximum speed at the point of impact not half way through, and this these.
Doppler kind of ball trackers help you do that, naturally, because you ve put your ipod or your phone with the app open kind of down rotten funny available next year bag and every shot you hit its instant feedback in right. How far it went where, when spinnerets spin rises been waiter, the ball growth back spin and any sort No, no! No! No! That's the way so that so that means it is measuring not only in the centre party. The ball, which will give you the ball speed but other the above the half way point and below the half way point we get a rotation rate, so there's a very precise doppler measurement. I eyes from what I understand is very precise and in you, understand how they get to where the gate appointed into both spinning right in the port. The part that spinning across your view, which is the nearest part of the ball to you, is neither coming towards you nor away from you.
Because it usually coming towards you now is going with you in that moment, is doing neither you have to measure their to get the actual pure speed of the ball. Otherwise, if you measure the speed of the ball in either other spot. You gonna have less or more because a ball spinning now. You know you wanna do not on purpose to get the actual spin rate of the bosses. This is this is more than what I was even imagining that you guys are up to let our views and re use laser. So what is the difference? Neil you between like tracking something with lasers and what is regular, doppler. Well, I can answer the doppler, but the dollars a rider that follows the ball bright trend.
Exactly what the bull does and does that the lasers that we use on tour. They kind of have three of them that create all these triangles, so they can get the data from Whereat bowls go after every shall can we finish around. We say that we had at two hundred seventy five years on the first and then hinted to twenty feet with a five on, and then we have twenty four partner. We went to the next and you compile data like this. Every round we play on tourist, measured every single shot we hit where it went on the course afar. When, far from our target, the whole thing and we get used with down a fixed minimum norms That's I had now. You have a very often faced by the way science. So before we take a break, maybe you can break down just Doppler Bulgaria can we demand an opportunity and many people. Another word began to think they always they feel it s really
like you know, you hear a doll blaring, you like, there must be a hurricane or storm. Camelia sums emotions on its emotional. But what is more, there is of a german phone and Christian Doppler, whose suspected that sound change, depending on whether an object was moving towards you or away from you did experiments with with with trains visas in the nineteenth century and a train whistle comes towards you. He noticed that the pitch was higher than the very same train was. As it received from you. So so in the modern version of that we think of cars. You, if you're standing adjacent to a freeway Mars coming towards you in New York. You here, you know, there's no doubt but all whose nobody's moving in any area or delay on the four or five LEO
applause I so so we know about this frequency change, and so it turns out. It is an exact relationship between how much the frequency changes at the speed of the thing coming towards you we're moving away Zack the key is looming Algeria, one or one going ratio right. So, if he's going twice as fast, it has twice the pitch coming towards the frequency, the pitch right. So so loud, are you not once you have something that can reflect that signal back to you? You have to choose a kind of like that. Would do that. Not all things will reflect a single back to you in that way, but we wish in any way so that we will work with the sound waves on the train and waste with a light waves and in this case we microwaves or if you had some other kind of laser optical laser, it would work for any kind of light travels in waves. But you need to know the speed of that wave in order to do this calculation and, in our case, the speed of light in air, which is slightly less than seceded. Why? In abandoning vacuum? A simple point of you not know your machine
so you plug it into the holding of the machine, and now he can sit there and not have to even know what the formula looks like and his ipod is telling him as he stands there on the ground. The green That was your doppler minute unify to you by you may better, a bonus on that minute below you know we'll take a break Jeff Ogilvy, Persia, President Barroso is very, but I hope we can get you back where yeah really call to talk. There was not a queer thing that the putting green- that's actually real grass regret, because I've never seen rest that looks like putting green grass yeah. You guys must like genetically engineered that stuff you I will leave it or not. We do, I think. Maybe we should come back and talk about Roger, absolutely on the green paper, and we need to take that right because don't do away with us and TAT will have to impose when we
hey, I've got no secret for you when I consider singing all of the ads on this shell. There, just one way to get out of hearing there go to patriarch, coms, last starred talk and supporters at the five dollar level or higher to listen. The star talk ad free. You can download all current episodes into your favorite parkers player and ever hear another commercial on star talk ever again, you will definitely not have Dear me, saying, if you support us at patriarch doc, arms. Last our talk, radio, I mean I'm just thinking I mean just saying
subject. Playing with scientists course is look Gulf. We ve had to these services of just Ogilvy Counties Code of practice, We will have in practice, as you already know, that do anyway right, but the good doctor numerous Thyssen still with so I'm never actually play golf so that so I am happy to help out where the physics applies, but can come to me for expertise here in the gulf. So here's here's how much I don't play off your eighty people ask me
Am I an atheist, and I said I'm really so if you look at it and closer to an agnostic, but I don't even like the word esias, because it's a word that describes what you're not and why should there be a word to describe what you're not and my example there has been. There's no word for me. As someone who does not play golf other words for non golfers, yet Cobb lack tiger didn't say was black than some other thing: album age cobbler, whatever right right right time, whatever it is, you tie cocktails what's so so Gulf was always my go to reference for the statement that there are no words that says you don't play golf. That's so that's
really cool guy I'll I'll. I liked the yes. I don't want words describing what I do want to write. Gimme words it just gonna, but what I am, what I do and what I do yeah, let's get to one of your tweets about golf about Gulf. I don't remember tweeting about Gov, dig deeper. You dig in here in Twitter archives. Well, let's just say we ve been down the mine and come out of ways gophers where we went. When was it that that's April, two thousand thirteen, oh ok, this is early years reproach to thousands earlier, tighten tweets. Rarely ties in TWAIN. Golfers want silence. When hitting stationary balls at their feet, baseball bat is in screaming crowds hit. Ninety Marlon, our food
suitable discuss, thousands and observation. You know I was in no, I obviously the psychology of soda hitting of a ball in the mind and being able to when I come to consider once talking I tickets, I think it's just tradition in this work. I don't see any actual reason why an offer shouldn't be able to concentrate regardless of noise level. If you speak to basketball players in the final seconds who have to hit we throw and sweet crowds screaming and the crowd behind the back board. How even thing waving things is specifically designed to distract you ask those players. They say everything gets zone down right and it's just me the ball in the basket, and we have the power to do this. It is a selective attention directive, and I believe that with my children we have very good at Sylvia, another
attenuating force things that would otherwise distract our attention and so so engulf. They have no tradition of doing that right and therefore they have no such ability to pull this off unless we slowly so to east at his ease gulf, unique in the sense that, if its, if it's a tennis match you ve got an opponent if it's a baseball
after you, pitcher pitter, Gopher, Jew a ball, stick a whole there's. No one else involved is all about you, and so there are another sportswriter lechner reckon in it in the moment, yellow the field events are tracking field is just relax. You directly our strategy, absolutely serious, Boris, similar performance for is right but check and feel, like you said, also screaming lights, of cheering Oran and at the funny thing is that, like in football players, they are coaches actually pipe in crowd. Nor is if you are in the way team, so your practicing at home and they turned the stadium speakers up as or how does they can go to distract distracted players during practice in hopes that they are mine will become acclimated to distraction and it will no longer be a distraction,
sweet if you're playing an there's, nobody there all right does not in the NBA due to a couple of games earlier in the area with no one with no with no music. No background little, I thought no! No, there was an empty stadium and it was an affair game. Because of was it a storm or what was I can't remember. The NBA play games without any music is that a dead dead? None of that happened cover the entire game yeah and you have an effect on a player. No, it freaked me out most in there was really is the music. But what about intentness another game where silences tradition is a tradition. We always you quiet, quietly, Squire and I'm just like through you to pass on me and I'm security gets a modest yes, so I think it's just tradition but its frontiers. Make fun of that different sets up. It was a playful known highlighted. It does but end by the way possible.
Bank, the ninety miles an hour festival, is thrown with the full attentive you not getting it right. Not only in aid, but in man and a movement area it is apparently the hardest thing to do. In sport, yeah yeah Elite spoke, and I you know I was thinking about that. But that's a quantifiable say I was you noticed two things one you just part of me when you were talking about tennis golf antennas, both cunt, club sports and so therefore exploit membership source of membership sports, and so I'm sort. Traditionally it was played in pretty much silence. So when it becomes competitive they can t that tradition, because that's how game is put even now, there's a thousands even as a people as the spanish law spectators along the green page. You play in front of Grandstand Mona Golf course on the big major, so yea dive. They they sang quiet place while selling tickets in the tens of thousands and there s one
So the reason why hitting a baseball we know is the hardest thing to do, and sports is because the best hitters successfully put the ball, where that's not fielded, only a sort of the time right. So if I come out with a point three average, I'm a super state correct. Your in you are, you are, you are in the Hall of Fame and people right, pole, articles about you and I think where, as I dont there's not clear that there is any other sport where, if you had a a sixty seven percent failure rate that you would be considered a success. So now check this out. An attitude say that cough we say the harnessing the Deuce hit a baseball fastball, but
that a whole in one. So if you want a part recourse that means that you can get a whole and what is not able possible Georgiana, wasn't I so far away ass. It does not ensure in outer retract, which means you can get on the green and one which means. If you placed the ball in the green in one properly, you could get a role to get a whole in. Why so? How often does a hole in what happened and golf? And maybe that's the hardest thing that happens? No, it happens a lot more than dead. Then I'm right, maybe not a home run happen near hardest thing to do, but the transports is to hit a home, not the lowest of. Sport is another heartening to do. A sports is too pitcher perfect game. So let's get that straight. All who rarely yeah, but we have what fraction of all games are perfect games that's what you're talking about it as one of its idea. That is like the many school near zero fraction out. So so so you right home in one is rare for a golfer than a
run, is format for any kind of slugger exempted right right. So I'll give you that when one is gonna, be rarer when you have given it take. Do you advocate noise whilst putting to close out a major yearning gusto? You got you gotta, six foot, part! That's! U banking, seven, possibly eight figures new Bank and deal with you lot shut up. I'm at work here is your money. I sometimes fantasize like if I'm trying to solve some grand equation that there's you ve made deciding how to clashings is vital, says about equation the commentator. Could the all these three lies with? We think that is their these all of it I am pleased that so it's a parent who was it there was a classical music comedian.
Victor Borges deployed to it could well be. I asked here he's the one who had a concert where there were announcers describing the classical music performance. The way Sport has a zone this and they are eating. During the thing you know this to be a player with they trade, him for the other guy for this and then there's a trumpeted. You know the fairly pops brought in this global player as funding and one of them the trumpet hits a wrong. No, yet that's his third mess up this year. We probably will see him in the next few months. In fact, in the whole area of brilliant pit, brilliant pits pretty cool man. We are at a time We have a low munting new fantasize about equations. One of more than one thing: I've grave registered address different and EVA. Don't I've learned something I want got to change so that people can actually Haeckel people, whether putting that would be awesome, YO, Stock Mcelroy and your wife, or sleeping with
rather like that would be a meeting sets deaths. I'm sorry I have a travellers who fine ok may have done, that is a reply. Resigns hope you ve enjoyed it and thank you feel you dress Always I always have it about voting Ogilvy. So that's it has enjoyed it. Forty, a company like down on my I'll, drop the organs. We should listen. The star talk, commercial free joint start talking. Patria for as little as five dollars per month and the ads will disappear, learn more at patriarch dot, coms. Last star talk, radio,
Transcript generated on 2020-01-20.