In case you missed this episode on the Playing with Science channel… Scrums, lineouts, and spin passes – Hosts Gary O’Reilly and Chuck Nice take to the turf as we explore the science and grit of rugby alongside Todd Clever, former USA Rugby captain, and Trevor Lipscombe, author of “The Physics of Rugby.”NOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can watch or listen to this entire episode commercial-free here: https://www.startalkradio.net/all-access/rugby-physics-and-grit-with-todd-clever/Photo Credit: Hamish McConnochie via Wikimedia Commons.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Skip the commercials support star talk on patriarch to listen to every episode, Commercial free age up night here. So we hear it star target thinking about doing one of those deemed cruises. You know but STAR talk, style, scientists, comedian, celebrities, all out on the ocean and, of course, your own personal astrophysics. Meal, the grass Thyssen and we put together a survey about it and everybody was like hey. We need people to get the survey and I was like YO. It sells itself, let's make it happen, but of course we still need the data and any ideas that you might come up with. That makes the crews better. So please take the survey at STAR Talk, radio, dot, net, slash cosmic crews, because you know I love a good crews. Where else and I got a sport- my fancy, crews, it's like you,
eyes, play every position on an end. If L team, all at once, is that kind of correctly it is also about where's schedule above is passing tat where you live, everybody's, a playmaker everybody has options for which is really fun. On top of your play with I am the other s place of your personal astrophysicist. The startup network is pleased to present to you, a U show where the universe in sports and now Europe's aims at nice I like, and we ivy hosts of playing with science ready for it.
Today is rub, bestowed to step into the light good good. Where the Hell Rugby even come from rugby school it originated. So the legend has it by William Web Alice in eighteen, twenty three: he got bored with kicking a ball, so you play soccer and, like most people bore a board boy, decided to pick it up Rama they it instead from then on it becomes Rugby Football Rugby Football as opposed to just Papa,
which we call soccer anymore. Rugby is very popular on a global level and never once had the players worn, pads and joining us today. I am so pleased about this case former USA Captain and most cap Eagles player. Yes, if you have not worked it out, told club and also to pull apart the science of this incredibly physical game. Having plainly, I can vouch for it being incredibly, physical will be physicists. Professor Trevor lips, come Catholic University of Amerika, the author of the Physics of Rugby be joining us first, that man we kept in Amerika S, rights are welcome to the shows a dark lever. Roma is rapidly four listeners, you are familiar with the sport. Can you break down a few? The basics forest without going way back to point one call those game dangerously
it is the result of regional game. They broken down the seven four seven as well so was right. He's out of rubbish is continuous play. Every player plays offers a defence the boy backwards. We tackle tackle hard, key delegate. This position You know you score, try, which is basically, you touched upon. Over the heads of the idea that we're five boys converges were too so it's just great game, a respectable game. So you know we note when you look at the game and I've been watching a lotta rugby, since we knew we were gonna. Have you won't have to Carter hooked. It's really a cool sport. And it's amazing to me: it's like you guys play every position on an end of l team. All at once is a kind of career.
I mean you know what I'm saying Arabia's. You know all skills are aware Ok, if its schedule of art is passing is tat when you run lines but he's a play maker. Everybody has not achieved score with, which is that which is really thought. I told you built to play and I fell so going up in California? Why didn't you take that path? And what what made you gravitate towards rugby are the biggest the reason why I started by lobbies to travel what's your world and let the different cultures my order. Wait a minute of a boy, a rocky and saw him. You know you know players, ten games and eyes were season some summer double days, and you know it about thirty minutes for days and the
Play rugby, where he travel across the world and you know, got the experience or things practice couple times a day and seemed like the guys were had let me be easy decision. Do. How can we say this time that is brilliant, because Those guys join the Navy to see the world you. My friend have just up the game spats interesting because, obviously, what's your brother play and a fellow native play you'd have participated at some stage some level. Some aid Chuck said an Intra, there's, no pads, they never Spain? And I doubt the river will be, how do you care out of a game that is full of patent protection into where there is, and how do you mean silly and physically, adapt to that, I
actually never played America I'll bring about Skype. Ads are no ok, pudding, Did you find people reacting to you when they realize you don't wear pads this fourth growing and in that sense of more people are getting familiar and they know it. Yes, I mean they, they guy cobblestones, release the head was their experience and see it. You know it's a bit of an elegant violence. That's a great one! put it, I was going to say like it's a beautiful gang war, that's kind of the way. I termed it, but I like elegant violence. A little better say the white poetic way was always described back in England. Is rugby? Is a game for hooligans played by gentlemen? football. Is a game for gentlemen play by hooligans yet exactly, but
Would it be physical and the big boys don't mind smashing into little guys. I now yet ambitious, there's no sort of white category. If you ve got the ball you get in here. Ok, so now, I'm so glad you. But that up? This was something there as I'm watching these games. That struck me as so odd. So american football is highly specialised, You will have guys my size on the field. You'll. Have you guys got your size of veal and you'll also have guys Todd size on fuel and for those of you who are watching us will start talk all access dot com? Where you can see the video tat is you will call a monster, ok, leg, just think of our monster with a lotta muscles and like King Hair and beard- and that's Todd, clever cell type- what are the positions and how
did that a little guy like me would have to take on a big guy like you, those to break down the positions. There's like I said before this. Fifty inquired the right way forward and seven bags and so forth. Are your fair guys. You know your front rover, probably the round this guy's going out the fastest right. I was still diplomatic, local, strong arm, and then you have the second row which, as you know, you're here you're kind of engine room in those guys around. You know from six five six ten sort of big guys and then New House, in a kind of a mixture of you, know her where the big eyes and backs were skills and speed, inasmuch as I pointed out right now, I'm I'm six or to thirty.
So you don't have that one of the sport eyes in the back row right in the four path, and then you have the bad guys is yours eyes. You know you have be fast skill, you bring something to the table other than obviously not the not agree. The engine room right. What you learn earlier on cause I played number ten, so that's fly half and guys like Todd, would pay off the scrub and noble me before I got a chance to run? Do anything I'm looking upwards at the sky sees how completely trust these grinning at because he knows that's what you do is Lanka. Plainly rob me before you got here even after you as an early and again you gotta go your presence I'm not breathing down to calling card or a minor role. Ok, I ask of Philadelphia Eagles question. Please can I stop you
you did, it becomes so tied the Philadelphia evils, which happened to be my hometown? American football team have in the seventh round of this year's draft. They picked a guy, the name of if I'm not mistaken, give me a second Jordan, mulatto or Malaysia, Jordan, mulatto she's, a guy who's no bigger than you and runs like a squirrel like he's so the way he darts about she looks like an. Real version of a video game that was programmed to play rugby. Are you familiar with him how do you think you're doing the NFL? I am familiar with the data. Especially whenever there was a hive of him, possibly
moving to moving the NFL are giving it a go. My some friends that are now agents and yet alive. They breached asked me to pass from guys I wanna do cross over joint, jointly enough lights of leader, chaired pain to hate Smith, and then also has a few other guy. So whenever this coming from so early in the whole learning process- and you know Guys- they're going to come in. You know very forward going Oliver Language, and I know that, and you have no patriots, call time, Superbowl champion the patriots. A couple still does anyone he's not there? When still does and I know he is is explained a really well us just how how different the sports are at sir. You know about them
as you so far, but you know you gotta work tale. I am now really really challenge yourself, Atossa six inches mentally to really get document into these, though those roles all right, we are going to take a break taught you stick around because we're coming back we'll have more. We talk, clever and we'll have professor travel epsco. Yes, the author of the Physics of rugby. We can take that break. We, eventually did you know he felt it, then you can pay start up. Aunt start what you're doing and repeat after me, Our universe is filled with secrets and mysteries, leaving us with many questions to be answered. We find ourselves searching for those answers as the very fabric of
is science and society are converging here for the first time these worlds collide, in other words, by heart. Now you can wear them. Introducing the newest start, talk, t shirt and poster available exclusively online. At the start, talks store just click on shop. At start, talk, radio, met an order, your t, shirt or poster. Today,
back- Bulgaria rightly unsure of nice- and this, of course, is playing with the science of very special rugby addition were exploring the world of rugby before me, USA, Captain told clever yes, but we are now joined to break down the science. Professor travel lips come of the Catholic University of America, author, as before he touched on the physics of rugby as well as Albert Einstein, geography, pets way, professor welcome to the show here. Thank you for inviting me hand before we get to your backstory and how you got to rugby. We just gotta, ask you, who you like more Ruddier Einstein, as a classical
stammered have lasted long on the rug. People are getting build rugby. There you go. So how did your weavers told how he kind of gravitated towards rugby how's? That story work out for you? How did you find yourself in the world of Rugby like you, I grew up in England and so in high school. You play a lotta rugby and done if I do on playing soccer. I'd only play for a really bad team, like Crystal Palace ass. They are bad daunting, reservations voiced. I pay more rugby studying physics income. One day when I finished correctly my rugby create rendered? Actually when I broke my neck? Oh my god, so I thought is going some way of putting rugby
physics together, so interrupt writing a book about it very cool. Now you know weight so just gonna. We was about to go down the road of physics, but now that you'd set what you just said, I just have to ask, since we have taught on the line and since you were injured, so I will say severely. There is a common conception that rugby has less injuries, then football because you're not wearing paths in football weapon eyes as the player. By putting helmets wonder. However, you just said you ve broken neck and an end and I've I've actually seem Todd score. A try by jumping over an injured player on the field by the plan was being attended to so clearly
Clearly there are injuries in this support. What is the most common injury and and how often our players heard in this report? Can you give us some insight near toad? Please? I have also heard- and I know that in Greece are less common in Robbie than simple reason that you mentioned, but the positions we hence in opposition veto for further injuries that you they receive. For myself as an anchor, I had a lot of trouble with my fingers and hands dislocated fingers broken bones the hands, but the mother. You can't take up and keep on playing HANS. Nothing, for you must have easy for you to stay outside lucky. You get bunsen bruises behind the solar without raising legs from from getting tackled and butter. Again, I was asked by lucky.
My pleasure to do not to say to our two serious as fortune ass, a professor I received a broken neck by its context for things happen, but ass. We know it is safer than before from a science standpoint, if you can just tell us, maybe why injury is less in rugby and then, if you don't mind reliving your horrific accident ivy nor my entertainment, I would really appreciate knowing how you're broke his neck indulgent show or when things at the science. Others actually. Is that the bigger a boon is then Harder, it is to break So in many sports, what you gonna see contacts board, you're gonna, see things like TAT said where, as fingers and thumb and toes might be easier to break, but something bigger like a fiber while you're here bore his shoulder. It gonna, be a lot tougher unfortunate
he's in the neck and ill, but small, so that they can break easily under certain circumstances, with the difference being Rugby and American football, I'm one of them each differences is, if I go and tackle someone in rugby and get my arm too high and I'm gonna hit them in the face in America. Football. The sticking my arm out, I might actually is crap, hold all the devise a right, the phase of rice mosque and create a huge the man of talk, that's gonna, rip the neck around here and so on and the other thing. Is again you even in some other, did with friction right. A hand is gonna slide off another. And being skin, but it can stick to the House, So again you can get these whiplash injuries these horse collar injuries, because that friction from hand to equipment is
from hand to hand over hand to leg okay. So the other thing is now. There are certain codes impotent, move focus on Rugby Union rather than the league and the seventh, but in terms of Rugby Union about tackling huh I and sparing, and also of different things that have gone on in the past, which cause which can cause horrific injuries. So the gun- go to the hour. If you seem to have brought in an updated code of conduct when it comes to tackling, is that right they have ya, get makes the game safer car. So ok Todd! I'm going to ask you a question that I hope we get the professor to expire but the physics about it. As I was growing up playing rugby all of a sudden, I see players when they got the ball would spin pass and it was a whole.
Who technique is kids. We were just checking. It left all right, it's warbling and it's all over the place, but then the players practice and develop this spin passive, really tight spiral. Is that, from a pious point of view, what is the advantage of that? None ass, the professor about the physics you mentioned from in our report and that the rules of origin is rocket, always all the efforts for entertainment. You also risen again, but without either for the past If you're spending ass, you know ass long ass, it makes sense in against their faster partisan technique. You know it's one of those things you do ten thousand times on his hand, you your training here, you can get out, get a dark from
twenty five years work on these away in a disgraceful, faster and more consistent, brief alone. Ok, Professor, that's the play his point of view from the science. Why have players worked out that putting a real tight spiral on their policies is more advantageous was due to a thing called Jerry, complex stability, if you spin something as you throw it, wants to continue in that direction. Right you the same thing in american football. Will you try and throw the border filled with a tight spiral. That spiral keep something going in the direction it's been aimed at said again in baseball right, not at all. It's got no spent on it at all, and it goes all over the place. It is incredibly unpredictable so that tight spiral allowed that bold to go straight where you aimed it, and you hope that straight into the arms of your team com, so
The stabilization tat you get a longer pass at a more accurate pass because the bar has a rotation on it as exactly it out. One thing I couldn't work out was to pass from my left to the right, because I'm right handed so I was passing right. I was ok Past eight was like this is all wrong. How long did it take a need? You said you practice with both hands Hamilton, I beg you to master, and how do you auto your technique is one of those things like us, which has earned a baseball things were both in. I get this practice practice practice and, most recently my left me I got reckoned as well. That's how I started asking just spin asthma right. Maybe you know try not to ask anyone to my left, because I don't have sold out. There was always my dummy move because ass away, this gotta run,
but all in vain. I level higher level you gotta retain their skills and you know thrown a career. I kinda, better left. In the past we re having passed because those you know your work on a scale so but interesting pressure quickly. Before we take another break, is there an equation? So's, you can consistently trap catch bouncing rugby, both people, because it seems the one thing that play as no matter how good they are always struggle with scientists away struggle with as well. It is an odd shape all and borders bouncing honour on its surface. That could be where, if you're playing like in Scotland in Winter Roy be bone hard if you're playing seven's in rugby shaking some guidelines but you're on your own I sense familiar right, we're gonna, take that break. I'm gonna take that breaks at my own and then come back right. That bright, he's coming up, as will be so clever,
Professor travel? It's gonna are to guess what we show so don't go away. We will be back soon. by putting with science August today a few just joined us. Where do we go back to begin? listen all the way up to now right, it was formed
You say, Captain told clever and Professor Trevor lips come of the Catholic University of Amerika and author of the Physics of rugby and yes, we are talking about rugby still because we love it with the new devoted school chuck night. Yes, man, I gotta tell ya I'm a fan of rugby. I mean I I actually find. As I said, it's definitely the the child. The american football is certainly the child of rugby, if not the no distant cousin and there are so many so many similarities that I see where I can see the development of american Football from Rugby yourself accept that there is a stoppage of play, all the time you know which believe it or not. I. I can't believe that I found that disconcerting, because every time you would have the tackle happened right
Claire goes down. You don't realize, because as an american football fan, unlike our place over, let's break this up, let's set up, let Atalanta scrimmage, no know these guys, they pushed the boat, well where they move the ball or another player, another player, but fix it up. So so I mean, let's go back, let's have thought so as it it's a continuation and there are, there are stoppages by its generally a free flowing, and how do you develop quality and mentality to remain in the game, because you being deemed that the physical demands a great as well as the mental demands massively year your office and you, You don't have a coach or Venus on making the calls from sidelined or up in the box, every down or anything else,
you're. A liar lot on the cap is, while on the play makers to you, know, what's going on, so it is very much players game and you know merit of all very much a conscious, absolutely interesting right, because you're part of the scrub, and for me the scrub was always will it goes in there and stuff happens. It's a mystery is there's a definite. There's got to be definite techniques. How'd. You manage, causes all sorts of a hand, grabs and graphs and sort of things that are going on in there. So you better, if it secret Dante, but then again tell me that it is a position whenever there is a Ford pass or knock on over, teaches us to have a strong and
in other words, nailing dirty. That goes on ninety nine percent of the time, but in other front rose other than the problem, the hookers. Maybe they think it's does there, as there are form that they can express themselves and show dominance against opposition by dogs, but for some fans and tunnel president over tens of the rest of acts. They figure is pretty poor person. They did not think much of it ties. Orderly, you'll, take extra for a hooker to show dominance, but anyway, processor, Professor, they ignore him, come retards, crack and outcome of professor breakdown. For me, the physics of the scrub here these people are all locked together arm in arm they're moving add their heads or flooding the have to win look at our laughingly here as a huge group and then use de the moving on,
as a unit, but imposing their will. What kind of physicists at play in that process very much? It serves a question of force right, each team is trying to have the law just a mound of force and direct. It down, failed right, they feel all aligned in the same way, you gonna maximize was shut down the pitch now, there's a way to out out forced the the opposition. I if, if it's their scram and they put the ball in their hooker, the guy in the middle, has to hook the ball back with his feet. That means you can push they ve all hooker is pushing. It gives you a sort of eight too seven person advantage? And if you look at where Tom plays as flankers, you can she'll flankers aligned very close to them. From so they pretty much pushing straight down the field or you can the more at right angles which whole mess up?
The opposition, scram half cause he's gonna, take a diesel around to get the ball, but it also clarifies if, if someone like told whose built like a tank with extra armor, starts to push and rotate. This comes, so what are we doing with in terms of physics there right? So a good estimate is that a rugby player can push equal to about their own weight. So if you imagine, you got a people's size which Wikipedia says you two hundred and thirty pounds saying about sixteen. Thousand four pounds of What's going on, there laugh. You also have talk which is and you're gonna try and rotate that score on usually when you ve lost it and you're trying to mess up the possession for the opposition now. The other worry with described, which is actually how I bust my neck is that if you ve got the front rose, pushing not here recently, but slightly downwards. Then the entire scrunch can collapse would have
in my case. Was the two problems pulled over to one side, and so basically the weight of old seems packs went on my neck. do you know now? Oh god, I'm sorry ever asked see. My neck is hurting now I met is actually Harding. Pardon me says good. This parliament says that's not good at all. Men were about whether the physics fascinating and it actually did actually shows you the physicality that particular process when it's going on on the on the pitch. That's amazing: ok taught there's something that czech public bunk quite get to grips with, but the I'm out right when, when a ball is gone out to balance out of bans on the sidelines, then it has to come back in a line out their backing, when I paid in high school things of change, were allowed to pick up
Erin all of a sudden is starting to look somewhere between ballet and by the way my favorite part of the game is because you get to pick the player up here and he gets to go higher. Do you pick em up, so you can actually get high enough to catch the, by which I mean the whole thing looks really cool. I mean it just looks poetic. It looks very, again, even though you guys are like huge and muscular, it's like the one part of the game that looks almost like a dance or like that seen in dirty dancing when never mind. Thank you, but you know what I'm saying it just seems told it just seems wrong, but it's an integral part of the game is one vast cave where you in every case, possession still way
The opposition, so unlike renewed rag, doll, somebody out of bounds and because of the assembly that is eternal Christianity, guess that line now throw the Bali solely inside is complexes itself is very much thinking, got a thing and has to speed power, there's a deadlock and goes into line, and not just in open fire, interchanging others moving backwards, moving forwards, lupin around too you know. The other opposition to its raison d etre. Whenever that an in depth get this chapter, the hooker for us all into the atmosphere, oh hookers, is there anything I can do as eggs
Professor save me physics of allied out before chucked disappears. Half an hour to be. A book is not helping our heads girl proposes. Froze the ball in and physic shows without a doubt that throwing it to the big guy is usually a big idea. If you re a good idea around here and is Gary's as back in it You were allowed to be lifted at all, and you still from to the toll guy and he gets the bull and now it s some chopper saying it looks more like a ballet because it's gotta be so well timed hookers gonna- know exactly where to throw it, but So when the lift is coming I'd, if you with a bull way up in the air and the guys get the lift Roma. Isn't it goes sailing over the guy's head right. So it is really a question of throwing the ball
with precision and with practice so that everyone knows what they are doing at the right time. Super cool right before we vote, we have decided. Let you go. Let us hear about the same question Where is rugby headed in the future and in particular, where is ropey headed in the? U S start with you, professor vetted different the question to answer: I'm hoping it's it's going to go away from the way the England plays Rugby right in England plays rugby light than you jets, place, a ball its ground and pound, and it's not interesting, but they often when, unlike the jets, What I would like to see is a lot more open play are actually like to see that no less the line else. I think the law we really need to change to try and increase play a safety, but of assume a bit by us on that point also. What you gonna see is more and more nations who have never played rugby all have not been particularly good. Rugby, their level of play is
going to increase over the years and it's going to become a truly international game. Again, if you think what, when I was a kid with the World CUP, There are many teams who now maiden a knockout stage of this year's World CUP in soccer. It would never have I was young here. That's that's great for the game. I agree with you, so I thought, Where do you see rugby going in the future and then again in the? U S in particular, because I know you have involvement down in Austin, Texas yeah. I do. I could speak about where the rugby is going very obviously an easy answer that says moving up it all wrong rankings, we're getting better. We just be scarlet down using a couple weeks ago with the dominating Canada, which we haven't had in the past years. We we formed a newly visually grubby in alarm, just started this year and the
Semi finals are on this weekend, finals, urgency, Diego July seven July, seventh, at and it is amazing how what with the response, the readers of introducing rugby and people are experiencing for the first time, seeing that they come robbery seen the respect, and you know that there is now left for you, people, I don't want my full power, don't want it that there is a boy there's youth Robbie growing massively. So you know America's always been sorted, sleeping giant. You know that will include a disease that always said often American, when Americans cannot take place, you know that the sleeping giant just waken up and it is also to be part of it. I have interested in also branch eyes that participates in that
individually, grubby, and I know we have had a pretty good season it now, just just across the board in other sports programme is awesome, beginning or tb and energy is a to G along with an online sales pitch to get people interested in rugby are you have put it like. There's both of you, professor you and an entire you're talking to America right now, you should play rugby or you should watch rugby, because if a fantastic, faster Sport told Europe Todd Arena for Roma from church. I have to put in hope, somewhere after the salad bowl, Albert
we are told you we ve got the world ropey servants, but down encouraging anymore I'll, get the servants gonna say rugby. You have, we had a poker adjustment journeys going to wake up in the middle of the night giggling. You know that, don't you before we let you go towards. We got the word rugby servants coming up in San Francisco, gonna, be there. Stadium. So how good is that going to be Grab audience attention here in the? U S, August Seventh Olympic Sport, since just read it readers to reintroduced to in Rio and now USA, Rugby better inform the rocky vodka sub programmes will have and we won the bed somewhere. Housing at eighteen part in San Francisco joy twentieth, die twenty second, you know those twenty four minutes: national teams coming. Sixteen women
National teams coming from all parts of the globe come again and it is a good deal to showcase, do no and in the end first, having ever hope, did event like this and you know, tickets are scarce, is Motrin a sell out of the whole park of all three days. Can be amazing out the countdown falling on really excited form for the public and in all events, as long as the players to experience planted ass, a public statement is fifteen versus fifteen, but produce to seventy seven and it's much faster correct. Yet my family, you play brigades a day in our work with between, but that your whole tournament happens a three days for the review of the dangerous anti that takes. You know, sadly weeks and ask you, can have all hold her three days for assigning break taught clever. Thank you. So much indeed been a privilege and a pleasure.
You ve got at least one extra found here. Yes, you do both of you, you thank you. Professor travel lips going beyond what addressed if you mean you have, you must be british the Catholic University University Catholic, the Catholic University of Amerika Physics of rugs, thank you absolutely brilliant. The pair of you really enjoyed our show and rugby, I'm afraid, I'm I'm just let you know right now for the rest of you who are listening if you ever gets chairs first, good. I want you to check out going you tube and check out some rugby get check out the Rugby seven as full, full and then check out. The seventh argotiers is, if you're a real football fan, your definitely gonna be,
we found you don't have to apply a you will enjoy watching you are going to you, that's what I've been guerriere writing and I've been nice, I'm still Guerriere Riley Sunrise, and this has been playing with sides. Hope you enjoyed our rubbery special. We will catch up with you some time in the lead you to back down on my old job. The organs you can listen to star talk, commercial, free, joint start talking Patria, for as little as five dollars per month and the ads will disappear. Learn more at patriarch dot com, slap star, talk, radio,
Transcript generated on 2020-01-19.