Neil Tyson explores the future of science and technology in national defense with former U.S. Secretary of Defense Ash Carter. With comic co-host Leighann Lord, defense expert Michael Horowitz, strategist P.W. Singer, Mona Chalabi, Chuck Nice, & Bill Nye.NOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can listen to this entire episode commercial-free. Find out more at https://www.startalkradio.net/startalk-all-access/
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Skip. The commercials support star talk on patriarch to listen to every episode, Commercial free Welcome to start on your place in the universe where science, pop culture, color dartle, begin right now, a whole raft of American Museum of Nationalistic I've, your host, the other grass Thyssen, your personal astrophysicist- and this is startled. And we are turn my interview with the: U S, secretary of Defence, Ash Carter, and we talked about the future of science and technology in the armed forces and the defence of this land
So let's do this with me tonight is my coat comedian, Liane Lordly and I've got a special guess: Doktor Michael it's! Well you an expert you're you're on the faculty University Pennsylvania. That's right! That's what it thinks we're coming up for this and you're an expert on military innovation and the future of war man. So this is the right guy. He's the ragged applause Miami to get his car and leant. You actually have to have been a comedian, for the armed forces oversee. I have I have done several tours likewise, have been about hope you do a Bob hope did, but in a dress
How do you know you never have addressed while I look better in mine, demonstrates appreciated his arms, so the Secretary defence reports to the president and all of the armed forces, the port to the Secretary of difference to have their correct, You got a pretty sure and what's interesting in this system, is that the Secretary defence is a civilian and so we have the entire armed forces reporting to a civilian which ensure, Where is that it's civilians that great policy and enforce policy? So that's it. Unique system, but it's kind of how I'd prefer it
control the motor yeah yeah? That's a kind of a cool fact about it, and so I asked quarter is trying to transform the modern military. If you have a conversation with a secondary defence, if you think it might or how many missiles, how many troops, how many ships, how many guns- and if not what my conversation went like really deep decedent, that's not where he went he's he's he he he knows where things have been. But more importantly, he knows where he wants to take it, and I asked them all. Where the armed forces is headed next in my first question to him was check it out. So, Mr Secretary scrape great to have you tie the military? Should you know we had a once? Airplanes became important. The air force was invented, but now we have set
Why is there a space for solidarity, space force? There is a new, but there he had there under the aforesaid airspace or under the first, but the army and Navy and the intelligence community also build operate satellites mania as big as a school bus. While the Hubble space, telescope and excellent cousins. Well, we have cousins of that point. Downwardly autograph her hand, but they're really big data. Not I waved them actually. Every now and then we secured through good free will say I've with anger satellite, but when you say so, I'd like to waive the satellites in case we can only. Can, I believe, for real They can resolve the fingers my hand as I wave not quite yet, but you know, our technologies heading. What have you never know
that was not an answer, but there was no answer. I've. Never now, but you know what he may not be able to tell you. Then he has to kill people, because you want any Hollywood movie. This satellite is forces, fuzzy's enhance and if we knows all bs but enhance, real. No, if you have a photo of your resolution, you kid you say, enhance and have some algorithm showed detail where there was a detailed able for unless you invented it, to put it in there s all bs, Technology that that united which are in many other militaries have is, is amazing and can do amazing things in you. You can get grey resolution from space looking at things happening on the earth? But you know you: you're gonna have to wait for a while before the contemporary contemporary technology is gonna, be able to pick that up. Puss wallet it has to be satellite right. There was looking at me right and an almost two years,
gonna satellite it's gotta might be passing over. For that to happen, coverage is one of the biggest issue with satellites is in the movies etc. It's always available on demand exactly when you need to look at the bad guy. In reality, it sometimes can take some time like in the movie, the Martian, when they're trying to get the that satellite position to see where Matt Damon's characterise it was intelligently written in that regard absolute right. So let me ask the the the space frontier and military innovation have gone together ever since the middle of the cold war. I suppose that be Sputnik right, orbiting earth, freaked out here in Amerika and so did it brought in new politics. New military motives, new budgets, new technological developed NASA got founded, so
What's interesting to me is once technology matters in space matters? That's not it's no longer just a measure of troops and bullets. Missiles it's a measure of technology and science and engineering, and I was entreat to learn about secretary defence, asked Carter's background. When's the military, and he has a background in science, and this is what makes him a rare breed among politicians. In leadership positions today, so I asked about his path from science to security science, to secure let's check it out. I had some inspiration says I think most people did clear ear yourself in One of my eye was Kay but he wanted to know how things worked. Always so I ended up studied Initially, but will that meant you took stuff apart,
No, it was more mental than that, although I ended up doing experiments fairly lab and Brookhaven sacred leader onshore, whilst no don't know nothin, but I did do experiments later, but mostly theoretical physics in the head and I wanted to know how things happened to be the way they were and how they work, and so over time I I was torn actually between history. I was medieval history. Buff as well as a physics major. Right, brain left, brain kind of thing that they both came together in terms of one. You know how things work. History tells you: why things, the way they are because they develop that way and physics. You why things are the way they are from the point of view of how they work inside. So I loved him but ultimately end up with physics and now when I was first starting out like most scientists are so completely wound up and what do I know I was doing quantum criminal Amex was my thing, which is the force that holds corks together, is a very difficult
nonlinear field theory is very hard to solve the equation, so we were trying to find- and I did find some particular Automatic domains in which it was possible saw the equation to motion and Ben and thereby derive a result tests the the a very hot in that they know it wasn't works. What help corks together, and also I worked at it firmly lab on looking through the dog of the double elbows on first time they would have to three energy Evie did you really exciting time in particle physics, but the big problem that time was as head of the Cold war and the problem was the soviet thence. It wasn't me in every year, a height of calling for her. Well there you re missile crisis, where they have no nineteen. Eighty three, which is right around when this was that the and so the union was a framework, an take them and they thought they made after deck ourselves. Big big time time that one of the issues was, we were
building a missile called the annex missile and where could we put it where it wouldn't couldn't be destroyed, by soviet first Maximilian logic, still still good logic of deterrence, which, if you'd want to make sure something an attack. You need me sure they now, but you can get them back. Say deterrence works. If the other people don't want to die just to be clear. That has a brig assumption and well I am today we deal with opponents who are not in that are not similarly inclined negative, we're gonna Brown, but I write so it was a big technical problem of where to put this, when I worked on something you'd be interested in or use the internet you know something about which is the problem which we never solved of shoes, down soviet missiles in flight from ACE using XML.
Israel's free electron, lasers, x, ray lasers, neutral particle, all these things and it was skok so called STAR Wars defence initiative in, and I, where I first got noticed as scientists working on a screen problems was: wrote a paper based on classified information. Banana classified therefore widely read. That said, none of these things was in the offing. They were not practical was very controversial, the taboos very technically true, as must the technology community understand the Tec community knew this. So I like it so dear to your question, about we're in inspiration generation of elementary particle physics, just who were above me, the generation above me, the trained me all had the world were to experience of being part of the in our project or the LOS Alamos Atomic bomb. A project
they all instilled in me. The idea that you had some responsibility to use science for the greater good they they always told me that I had some responsibility. To give back or to participate. It was a reflex for them and that that is what got me on a kind of trial based into working on security problems, so his mental Yoda recycled for That's very jet. I positive side of the force. I like it. So what I'm curious about Michael is: there was an air of world war, two era Basically, the war was one on science. It wasn't one untruth movements, it was the advance along via troop movements and guns, and yes, but science ended the war and the Manhattan project. It was not only american scientists. In fact it was mostly
American and brought over in the service of a military project? It was not only american scientists. In fact it was mostly not american scientists brought over in the service of a military cause. The psychology of the scientists who says not wanted, studying the lab. I want to help my country because, of course, Germany had same call for scientists come forth help the motherland give me your medical doctors and your physicist so we're doing the same thing, and so that this for me ask the question: how Where should the government view the role of scientists in this? I don't think it's possible that understand what a military like the United States military does without understanding it scientists, it's your Europe you're, absolutely right that the a mirror
is scientific leadership is the underpinning not only of America's economy but America's military. Ok! So, given that fact- and that's it it's it's, it's your troops and your scientists, mixed together, that is, your war machine innocence, fundamentally is held in Italian Two things interact. One of the reasons why the United States is the best military in the world is because of the way that it melts those things together in the way that has traditionally been able to harness the our of science, to empower its troops. Can we still say that all can we still credibly say that we have the best military in the world we live in is expensive, nor, yes, in the back, much like healthcare practices and robust, but If I'm understanding the premise of you, your first book correctly, if you being big doesn't mean unassuming better and smaller, and more nimble is able to make changes quicker than we are, because we're so invested in one particular direction that we can't shift as quickly as is now the port of earth. Carter's commentary is whatever whatever it is, your brother,
you need to always stay nimble in how you value what it is. We're doing, and yet I was when I went wrong with visa completely sins or he's trying to make sure it's not just ships in planes that there's a whole that their more frontiers a hotel, tell us more about that in the later interviews, but I've never had. One cares about. Is your view spent a year. You left academia briefly to go work for the dvd and, and what did what was the did? You feel dubious did you we called as a sense of we want to run and responsibility if you're in there. In the last place you wanna go is the Pentagon, I think writing right under their nose. For me, I think it's really important to get out of the ivory tower and in given that a lot of my research has been about military innovation in the future of war. The idea of rolling up my sleeve, and actually sort of getting to work both from a as from us. Learning experience was unbent.
Evil and is a sort of a commitment to service seemed important. So this is something we should all do I think that we would be better off if more scientists took a term of service. Spent time in the military so is, is one of the largest Rock receive in the world- is the? U S: military. Ok, the arctic he has a bad name, but it's just that. It's a top down system that has layers upon airs upon layers of decision makers. Is that the right configuration to stimulate the future interest or scientist to join. I think that challenges, the military is not in the defence department or not the places where it is not the were that initial spark of sites it is going to happen, but it's a place that can cultivate that spark and use it. Addressed some of the nation's most more so patients largest challenges now a lot of us.
ITALY, and you know when you in your days growing up watching movies. We all did the movies that had any kind of science and technology in it. Typically, it was an evil scientists or mad scientist or a good scientists, but co authored by evil forces, basically every replicating science and so should we have to worry about this. Is that with the Nazis were doing what they do? They cultivate evil scientists. They were evil. Quite no. This is not an amazing thing. You there nobody thinks the doing the right thing, that's not even the most evil has done Send the English major Europe occur, and I have no,
I have not come back to that, while Deirdre all didn't have come about, and I was just truth so Michael, I got a question for you sure what is next in defence tech. What so? What can you tell us without having to kill us afterwards? What is on the horizon? That is, tech based You're gonna co opt for the Defense Department, so here's some things that that DARPA, the defence to farmer working on right now, that are that you can be read about on the internet with some degree of accuracy and that I think, are really really resting a one is a fast like wait autonomy. The idea of taking essentially miniature drones and in having them coordinate with each other to try to. Conducts surveillance to try Violence in an area and of
We need to be put humans in harm's way that second research on what are called many materials so think, like Harry utter invisibility cloak, but you know not obviously magical. The thing is stealth to point: no attempt to deal with the fact that other countries act the two decades of figure, it out ways to or figuring out ways to detect aeroplanes using some cell technology from the nineteen eighties. Okay, so I love the concept of new materials. That's a whole tear- and you know our man on the street chuck nice yeah. He he decided to go out and asked people about what their that so that their favorite future weapons the way to get from movies, Autonoe chuck nice man on the street? Let's check it out
That's right me, I'm here in Washington Square Park, to find out what people think about the future of defence name, the coolest futuristic weapon. You could whether it's from a movie or a book or anything. I think it's a lifesaver guardians of the galaxy when all the finer jets they are coming together to make that huge shield. That's, though, come on we're seven likes it right now, be star. Wars bars because you noted the flowers Slayer twisted you're. My like the hair on Princess Leia so day go. What gets me what they know flow of rip. Your train is that shit, but grew up to be a civil law if you could send robots into war, would you take it's ok for countries to go to war. If it's just Let's go against each other, yes we further now yeah. Ok, now what? If those robots could feel pain, oh, he can't be obeyed. His Roma were that now, but they can now his
she's still seldom took no notice of these billing pain. You look like you need somebody to bother you. You have a fifty percent chance of dying on the ground, fighting clones or an eighty percent chance of dying in an Ex wing fighter, dogfight it's one. Do you take swing fighter thy way, because if you're gonna die, you muzzle dying style? Actually, we didn't care. If you know what I'm talking about your total dweeb when it comes to ward awards, unlike meal, the grassy excise entity that MRS we'll be understand to be wholly because the flow to sell the sky, your Mama's, like Juliet uploads garnets, so would rather go into battle as genetically modified Cooper soldier or be a super smart scientists we're going into battle. Genetically modified soup about our soldier really yeah, you need to science
you ve got all the physical gives you need for battle have like a genetically modified person that understands I'm. War is an awful thing to do, and those many repercussions to man that was really beautiful man could ever have Firstly, there are you Neil we're a nation of warmongering compassion. War. Mongers we're coming up will break down the hard data on what is the biggest defence budget in the world start talking to have a little secret for you I'm gonna consider singing all of the ads on this shell there's just one. And where to get out of hearing there go to patriarch arms last star, talk and sub Where does at the five dollar level or higher, to listen? The star talk ad free,
You can download all current episodes into your favorite podcast player, and never we're here, another commercial on star talk ever again. You will definitely not have to hear me sing if you support us at Patria. Dark coms. Last our talk, radio, I mean I'm just thinking I mean just saying: Welcome back to startalk on the road, since we are featuring my interview with the defense secretary at harder, and we talked about the role of science in defense. Check it out the stuff we do is of greater consequence than defence in in years past summer. That's where the jet engine came from. That's where spaceflight came from, that's where the internet, the integrated circuit and someone. I want that today's defence,
Government even supercomputing got its frontier and exactly, for example, and I started my career. One of my inspirations was also secretary defence, also technologies, ordinary mathematician bill Perry and he I made gps happen when. People, Poohpooh did they didn't want to do it and I want today's defence department to be the petri dish. Tomorrow's breakthroughs in this anyway, it was for the generation that train made. So these investments that costs money had cost taxpayers money in somebody has to recognise that there's some kind of return that investment and the personnel the standing army, as it will be whether or not the marching army and the tanks the jets the the plant. You know that the that ships and
the efforts of the UN and its not make an army of, is it costs money just a bit, and I want to know how such money a whole lot. So we need some numbers and you know what happens on start up when we need numbers, we make em up How does it have regional observes? Are we need some real? We need some real day we got a person just for that doing called Mona Can I get some data, please excellent, where this is Mona, so obvious she's, a she's, a data collected for the guardian, and she is an expert in thinking about how to quantify things we otherwise talk about with words so Mona. How can you shed some light on so I would like to quantify the size of the U S defence budget and is a pretty big numbers that she five hundred and eighty billion dollars, but when alone
biggest kind of HANS get your head round. Why? So I, whenever the astrophysicist ways out of me to brag Comic, is struggling. If I were to everybody else, viewing ok, you could understand that number, by thinking of it as a share of the total? U S economy, so the defence budget represents about three percent of switching to pay, then you have a new problem right, which is, is three percent high or low and to get my bedroom. I looked at some of the international statistics about how the Eu S compares and actually mean countries in the world spend less than ten percent of the GDP on their defence budgets. But there are some. She's not a hell of a lot more than the? U S as a percentage of GDP top of the list. Country among animals, spends twelve percent of its gdp. On its defence. So so what does that? Get? You Well, the dollar's incense really really matter here right and when you look at dollars, incense. Instead, the? U S is top of the line
the board by a long long way. In fact, the? U S. Defence once it is more than the next twelve countries on the list combined and asking what that money buys it. So I started to look into the defence budget documents and they are fascinating. In fact, the second page on that document tells you how much it costs to produce them so did I not just to produce the budget document cost twenty eight thousand dollars, but this if a drop in the ocean right when you deal with five hundred eighty billion is so when you look at the entire budget about third, if it goes towards operations and maintenance, some of it goes towards him, spent so lost. His seven billion dollars was spent on space based defence systems onslaughts trunk just goes towards personnel, because there are lots of active military. Snow in the: U S, one point four: of them, while suit like salaries. I guess they get some kind of money for this, so that
That's the standing and marching army that cost any country a lot of money. So I wonder if the future of this will let's have a standing army and more of a robotic or technological. We'll do robots costs less money. Well, then, only the pension rights has just gone so more. Thank you for shedding some light on the defence budget that we all pay taxes into They back you Talkin about science and national defence, and I asked the: U S: Secretary Defence, Ash Carter, about the future of artificial intelligence and the Tec revenue. In the role of national defence as we go forward with chicken. When we think of the military? Historically, we think of troops, movements and and weapons, and this sort of thing and ships and jets, but that's not always the military that will need going forward.
Ginning their cyber warfare? There's warfare that doesn't involve advancing lines of armies, that's a very different world, we're bequeathing our next generation. So what did Deodar used to look like and what you're gonna have to look like going forward? Well, I used to look like planes, tanks in ships. Now it looks, much more satellites cyber signals special operations, forces, meaning very specialised precise, and if and when is technology changes. The threats change, but you know people also used is is important. This is This is vital because the thing that makes the american military I I say in its true the finest fighting force the world has ever known: isn't actually not our technology? That's wonderful and the best it is it is. It is in part the
I use we stand for which I am proud of an attractive. That's why we have lots of friends and allies like working with us, but, above all our people we have had access to really good people over the last generation Miroslav Volunteer force. We don't make anybody, know draft my data, the drafters, no draft, and nobody has to do this. They have to want to do this and if we're going to have best in the future. We need to make sure that it is exciting place to come into that gets back to having scientists who can keep us up to date. Make sure we don't fall by. It means peace irish or sensitive to other cultures and other people, because one of the ways that conflict folds today, unlike the battlefields of old, not by remote control, Europe close to other people in peacemaking involves you're standing other people in connecting. So we need people of great sophistication. So in this, when I think of the frontier
where are you guys stepping now that you hadn't step before there's a I one of them did he's a eyes? Nanotechnologies, these sorts of things? There's rap Sudley to a another way, pudding is the combination of the I t revolution and the you're a physiological understanding were increasingly abbe getting A tremendous power of the brain and the machine together. That's gonna be hugely by stepping there absolutely every step in a part of stepping there's. You don't have your own labs right, so you do you do ok do would, but that isn't the main thing we do. The main thing we do is give money to people. Like the. Why is that? we already have a lab and you don't have to build it and I was to you, and I say I got an idea: an individual people and companies run labs in general, pretty well
That's a surly with the garden. Did the Soviet Union used to try to make everything in the government didn't work out? So well, for the seven year? So our way is to feed on the very vibrant technological egos. Represented by this amazingly innovative culture in America, which, by the way is becoming global, that's another issue for us when I started my career in science and technology, most technology of consequence was american Most of the other point of pride, actually, I'm not sure coming out of the twentieth century that it's not the case at all. The got the technology basis now global, the scientific basis, global. It's gonna take a different kind of defence department to interact with the different the tax base a different generation of people. I gotta look.
That future generation of people were talking about Silicon Valley and he took a trip to Silicon Valley. When was it two thousand and fifteen, and they created the this defence, Did you know about this, Michael that defence, innovation unit, experimental, sounds my very dear, you actually idea, you actually are. What is that? What what? What's going on there? The ideas try to harness the ingenuity and creativity of Silicon Valley and bring it to the defence department to help with next generation. Knowledge challenges swiftly. Anatomy of the future soldier is attack export, yes, in another way to think about. It is also that the that this technology, a lot of the technology the past like GPS, started in the military, and then there were commercial applications, a lot of the technology or internet dress it in today's starting in Silicon Valley in the challenge, is how do you harness that for the military
and so does that mean that there's no secret anymore, because of his invented in Silicon Valley? Anyone has just to it? The governor comes in now they have the widget. Anyone else can get which are too only with it. Depends on how early the government gets in because their courting start ups, maybe it isn't as broad and as public. Yet I mean what? How does it work out as one of the big challenges is secretary. Carter was saying in a globalized world where technology is being created for commercial purposes, spreading around the world for those commercial purposes. It means a lot more countries are could have access to that technology in the future. You ve gotta, run even faster to try to stay ahead, so tell me about The integration of a I into the future robotic signal, is, should we fear it? I mean and in the movies, if you take a robot and you give it a brain and give it a gun, then humanity's toast right, because The rational decision would be to kill all humans in the world needs. A lot
about how we think of ourselves that when we imagine robots with guns in the movies, we imagine them killing us, but you artifice, Intelligence can help. As Secretary Carter, we say it's the fusion of of the person in the machine in using a autonomy in artificial intelligence to help people make better decisions. That is the future, for that. The dark in the Secretary Carter have been pursuing DARPA Door defence, advanced research, prevents research projects, Asians agency, and what's their budget, a year is about how much several billion dollars several billion does not even very much to say. That's my shoe budget aspect and I say A billion by the way is the exact amount of sharp budget is not always clear and when you raise the pitch in your voice with a word exists, that that makes it especially fuzzy.
Where a few billion off so when was darker created, a double has created a after sputnik. Actually so yet said smells like a fear. We were which Sputnik was shot across the bows to America's technology leadership- and you know in just like with the creation of NASA Barbara, was an attempt to sure that the United States could stay ahead in developing techniques. Jeez during the cold war, but what about bile warfare, there's a lot of concern about, especially with advancements in synthetic biology, the ability of scientists and even just smaller labs in other countries, to try to cook up diseases and some, That is overstated, I mean: did you can drink the water? Don't worry about it, but the butt It is certainly the there is. Certainly that fear that definitely exists. What's fascinates me throughout history is the early. Its applications of Bio warfare
Are you would take rotting carcass and rodents your enemies well, and so that would point their water supply or you. I saw that on game. It runs catapulted over castle wall catapulted disease carcass over the walls. Yeah, that's it. In effect, Bio, Bio by biological warfare, inversion point zero point one. What we ve been talking about the future of defence technology, as is influenced by science and tech biotech right now it's time for the cosmic queries segment and is where we two questions from our fan base on this topic and Leon. You have the quest your hand. I I have the question. I have not seen any of them. If I can't answer, I should say I donno or are definitely deferred MIKE. Let's, let's go for it, ok If you gotta get about you, I will hold myself to two very fast answers. Ok, let's do
a question, one is from blue underscore, came key, my ya. If, it has become the new weapons. What would the armor with the new arm ruby mirrors, Harry Harry Potter, right there? Ok, not all mirrors, reflect all, kinds of laser light, so you can have mirrors and that would reflect visible light. Pacers but their lasers that can lays and other bands of light that could, in principle, pass through the mirror itself, cook you on the inside. So, yes, That would be sort of doing What laser using do. We know what kind of mirror to then use and you go back and forth in Ghana. What laser you? Ok, let me get another here: I'm not ready! There's a scheme in the remit of the movie other data are stood still work.
A reason character is being sought, a laser targeted by an attack helicopter, and he just puts one hand out the other hand out, reflects the lasers back and it blows up the helicopter yeah, so that would be a way to send the weapon back to itself. That has to do with the quality romantic here, because her coated with shining Joe, what he got from predator baron? Two words death star? Ok, so so I tweet, yeah, ok it seems necessary to come it led, destroy a planet just to kill them people living on its surface. If you find Weapon that kills the people it and you get to keep the planet when you're done. Why, we plan to teach us a lesson to the other planet gathered
the little man come on the most learned wars movie: ok, they they would shock the energy out of a star to destroy multiple planets at once, but I did the calculation the entered a story, you did, you can destroy hundreds of planets in that they only destroyed six do the math right. It was way more dangerous weapon that they even imagine for them return, so somebody didn't movie math wrong. Hooker. Next, therefore, question from Luke the MAGIC kid Can your mustache protect against let's do it unless I got so close to them that tickled them with my upper lip and took a limited. Dear, where they didn't want to kill me. That is the only way Imagine that my mustache would protect my life living on less one unalaska twenty three.
What could an anti matter bomb do in terms of destruction compared to an atom or hydrogen bombs? There's no contest no contest. A normal hydrogen bombs. It converts like so low single digit per cent of the mass into energy? Ok, three percent, two percent, five rat LOS: digits if you have a matter anti matter bomb. One hundred ten of the matter is converted into energy. It is a vastly more potent weapon for anything you want to do, or it's a vastly more potent source of energy to drive your star. So the future of matter anti matter. Fuel is quite fertile. How ever. You need the anti matter available to mix with the matter to make the energy what You gonna carry the anti matter in acute bag from coach, Eddie Bag- you put it
it will annihilate lay. So he had to make magnetic force fields to contain it, and it's it's a containment problem that is still not resolve in our laboratories and that's all right. So what intrigues me when you have a size back. When you see things differently and in my interview with the Secretary Defence Ash Carter, he told me the two most things. He learned from a science background as applied to his job. The first is not to take anything at face value, don't take received wisdom, scrutinise everything. That's part of the scientific method is extremely important in if our support for anything, whether not your limit oversight, diminution position, but in governments important not to take things at face, Are you there? Never the way, you're told first and the other thing that scientists do solve problems and
no it's not it's a it's a. We can do it. Okay, this is a problem. Let solve this problem. But those two things together site where I've seen scientists in in in government they have been largely very successful for those two reasons why we have or that whenever there is when we have more what what I think, a lot of scientists don't have that experience than I am urges somebody saying a look you can do. You can participate in public life. In a way that would be very meaningful to you, you don't have to do it for the rest of you in the key. Is there to do for the rest, their life? What I'm trying to do a tour of duty exceeded, out of washing trying to reach out to the scientific community, make sure that relationship plenty of us would welcome the opportunity to take a year, or so and just rotate in an hour. I never got to see how the sausages made exactly and then they come out and they say can turn to their family and said I did something that really matter, and it was really exciting. Maybe they'll do
to come back. Maybe they'll never come back. That's fine, but they'll have made a contribution in front of it. Back at our founding fathers and the scientific literacy Express expressed by Thomas Jefferson, and especially by Ben Franklin, you wrote a book called scientific researchers into electricity and known internationally for his experiments. Learning about this new thing called electricity, world known as a scientist independent of how much we know him is a founding father, so that that that's a different kind of valuation of the broad and meaning of science and governance Does this mean you're that might be announcing your candidacy more for a future of security when startled continue
what we're talking about science and national defence- and I ask you a Secretary Defence Ash Carter about the future of national defence Let's check it out. What do you see is the future if we start having colonies and the moon and Mars and other kind Let's do it. This is a very different distant future. Perhaps in humans always get along, and so is there some plan to think of space defence in terms of defending Other locations and space rather than just space assets in orbit, was too far off the we're about their no body. It say it that would be a Letty problem to have in the following, since it takes a tremendous. MT of organization to stay space colony, which means a lot of people working together like a nation state well, nation states sometimes go crazy.
In general, large collectives of people have a certain stability to them. The thing I think we need to worry about in the future is individuals and small groups. Now not just talking ISIS and Al Qaeda and they are today's very important, very dangerous flavour of terrorists. But other people out there, also individuals and small groups. Now it's it's sort of US statistical reality that individuals, my group show a wider range behavior, including aberrant behaviour than large collectives- do and as more and more destructive power through technology falls into the hands of smaller and smaller groups and individuals. We need to wait I believe my successors, secretary defence, will not be worried about other name. States and may not be most worried about other nation states. They may be united with all other nation states, worrying about the aberrant behaviour of terrorists, small groups
vigils who were hyper per potentiality, even though they have crazy ideas by technology and protecting Society from that is, I think, gonna be a very important part of our security future. Some Michael, the future of defence. We're gonna go the problems that people crazy, that's the sound right right. There goes forbear we're done here. Wave everything right you're crazy in and if you take a lot of the time allergies. Coming coming online. Now things like three printing and drones and advancing synthetic biology, the abyss the individuals and small groups of people to blow up his larger. That being said, I think the largest threats out there are still from large nation states. Ok, so now, very defence will not only be worried about other nation states and may not be most worried about other nation states.
He's a defence analysed, and I think we ve got him on video call right now set right through the other Regos Peter singer, hello, Sierra. Thank you. Thanks for joining starts thanks for our maids honor you? So you think about the future of defence and security. The I was on the issues were politics and technology, National Security Cross and Soviet. A number of nonfiction books on topics range from cybersecurity to robotics thrones, to a new project looking at the future poor, that's a smash up between nonsense, but also of science fiction. Basically, look so, but a conflict would be like Tint Europe's out and how Odin everywhere from land Sea, but also in places we ve never farm work like outer space or cyberspace. So this would be basically a in war three scenario, but what about so to do
bones and a robots are due to these factor into your storytelling doctorates. Both the real work itself were looking out there at least eighty different nations, from the Classic and to China or Russia to Israel to Saudi. You ain't that if these eighty two nations have military robotics programmes right now, ok, so so what happens? So in its worth three scenario, I send my robot to beat up. They bought a mobile about loses. Okay, so what does it mean? I'm gonna like render to you? Is that what's gonna happen you're, assuming that you and I are so when the fight and that's the point is tat. You ll see robotics being used for everything from surveillance by Mr Hans upbringing, but it also doesn't mean that soldiers on the ground jet fighter islets are going away, is actually would it be man and machine working together, so you're not gonna Some kind of easy in warfare is one of things
certain aspects or don't change and united. Analysed and an author you can call to testify- is in front of the Senate ARM Service Committee on Services committee. So so you're in there and people are tapping your vision for the future, so that we presumably can ever safer future for us all. Absolutely and then you know, the hope is that, when you're on we're standing how the wars of the past, but also the worth of the future, might start it. You understand some of them began through crisis miscalculate an accident, others reflect very deliberate set of choices to go to war, so you know you mentioned that we have an outer world war, fortunately long time. But if you look at the past two world wars, one was basically no people deciding vote of war. The second was the Christ. Spun out of all we're. Looking at the future, the same thing could happen to work at start by two warships scraping pain over some.
Grief doesn't even show on a nautical chart or dumb something happens if a satellite being taken out, if that's the latian orca people deciding to go to war and sits by understanding things, understanding how the technology understanding? How does it what's possible, but not by understanding you're in a much better position to avoid the consequences book that ok, encouraging. So Peter thanks for common interest, our talk, Pritchett I'd. I know it's a little late for you, but so thanks for doing this week. In my interview with: U S, Defence Secretary Ash Carter, and for that of you, we had some parting thoughts about the response. Reality of science and scientists to society jacket. The citizen, scientists that we think are coming out of the twentieth century that you were a part of that legacy. Clearly was,
viewed with a sense of accountability, because it was physics that end of the Second World WAR and click the Manhattan project, and so physicist, hadn t killer accountability and responsibility to to participate going forward. If it's not about nooks and it's about biotech or cyber or or or nanotechnologies, then it's not so much physicist anymore. It's the Tec person who has this accountability to the government. So, do you foresee a rise of the that the the citizen, tech exe, who would be writing the objects of the future, the way the physicists of the cold war wrote there. I don't want you foresee it. I see it because the people who were at the frontiers of biology or the frontiers of tech or people who want to the difference and they know they are making a difference. Then they know
there wielding a technology of great power in great consequence, most of them understand that, with that comes a responsibility to make sure that that used for good and not ill, and I'm trying to tap into that an and make them allies, not just defence department, but of the common good and of peace generally. I find the reception as great it was in my day for a young person like me, when I was first, I told I think you're, a physicist that doesn't mean You just have a responsibility to physics. It means your responsibility to society, So Michael What do you see is the role of like the smart tech scientists in the running of government in Britain. The gap between academia between the ivory tower and the policy world is one of the most important things that publicly
did. Scientists can do. I think it's something that I wish we More did in in that I've been excited, at Secretary Carter is encouraging that in this room, generation of scientists. Now, there's a movie trope that we ve all just grown accustomed to. That's the scientist turn bad than I to take over the world was controlled by someone who wants to take over the world. Even if a tiny per cent of all scientists are that if there really brilliant but evil that could be devastating to the nations of the world. So in fact, as I understand it correctly from After the war came down in nineteen, eighty nine. We try to find programmes to attract the russian scientists to work on things that were in our interests. Rather than then go to rogue nations and then use their intellectual capital against us who did the same thing with german scientists after World WAR, two to get them to work for us instead of the inside of the Soviet Union. There it is. Okay, so did we offered
after student loans sway may work that that's good. Now before we rafters we would we can't leave without a visit from bill, neither science guy well in his latest instalment of nine times in the city. I love to get his take on on of this see how he can rapidly forest was check it out. we're on board the aircraft carrier Intrepid it's worse, with amazing innovations of destructive power. She ever since the or stone, was tied to a stick Technology and weapons has gone hand in hand keep in mind without military technology we wouldn't have microwave ovens radar, whether forecasting or mobile phones, it's cool stuff. Take dismissal, for example, it finds its target with radar micro, just like in your of in this
so finds its target with heat. Argon gas gets a special sensor or coal really fast and the heat passes. Special ones. In this matter, can seek its target with heat the same thing that makes your remote control control remotely Our desire to be best on the battlefield has given us all this amazing technical, but don't be something we could have all this one full technology without having to invest so much of our intellect and treasure prepare, for war back to. You now yeah, that's the intrepid see Erin Space Museum parked on the intrepid aircraft carrier parked on the West side of Manhattan. So Michael, what do you want? Where do you want to leave us What does the sum that summation of all the wisdom that you have gleaned from the books? You have written the courses you have taught and from the research you have done? Can you do still it into the essence
of what we need to hear and into a tweet haughty, Edra Haiku. Yes, what would you have one Americans roll up their sleeves and we're together, we can do just about anything and that's what secretary harder is trying to encourage the United States to do, and I think that we need to do it in of a merging take Allergies in and global challenges do you think, will succeed. I would never about against United States of America, so you don't, I think about, I think about you, look at how much we invest in the capacity to wage war and a little disappointed that there isn't at least as much Effort invested in never having war at all.
And is it always that we will never have war? Because I am so powerful? You won't even try to attack me or maybe there's some other investigations that can occur where the idea of wanting to attacks on one never even comes up, they look at the story of war. Many of the causes come about because people are differ in their world view and it will not have a conscience to solve it in other cases, there is a scarce resources and is a fight for the high ground or to control the resources. When I think of space. I think, of a place where everywhere is high ground and there is unlimited resources so that perhaps the fact that humans, wage war is the count
The contents of the fact that we live on the surface of a finite place. We call earth that if we explored the universe and the universe where our backyard, what would you ever fight over. Their plenty, a planet plenty stars, unlimited energy by endless natural resources contained and asteroids Ellen we call rare earth on earth are not rare in space. If you pick the right asteroid so may be a future in space. Investing Six hundred billion dollars will in fact be the end of all wars
in future. Civilizations will look back and say how could humans have been so tried to not have had the cosmic perspective, enabling them to see the value of peace as even greater than the value of defence? That is a thought from the universe you ve been watching startle the other s eyes in meeting you could keep looking up. We should listen to start or commercial free joint start talking. Patria for as little as five dollars per month and the ads will disappear. Learn more at patriarch dot com slap star, talk, radio
Transcript generated on 2020-01-24.