Skip the commercials support star talk on patriarch to listen to every episode, commercial, free. The American Museum of Natural history in New York, city and beaming. All space and start were science up well through the hall of the universe. I mean overdraft facing your personal astrophysicist and you were watching star talk where tonight we're featuring my interview, David byrne- was the creator and songwriter for talking heads, Kay by nabbed and put him in my office, and we talked about like the creativity involved in science versus art and whether one day intelligent machines will be as creative.

So. Let's do this quickly gives may well be getting back to saying it's good to be back and we have with us a special guest and academic guess who is also a talented artists, and we have Monica Lopez guns Let us welcome Monica she's on the visiting faculty at Johns Hopkins University in Cognitive, neuroscience, very cool, so we're featuring May interview with David Byrne really creative person- and he was that the key he was like the front man, the talking heads and they sort of pioneered- that the video music revolution back in the early eighties,

and for my notes on him. He Talkin had stopped in like one thousand nine hundred and ninety one, but he's been continually busy since then, and he's been a deep thinker about music about art, about creativity, about philosophy and our conversations basically went everywhere Do I have to keep my training it in it's funny that your conversations went everywhere with him because, like when that happens with me and my friend, it's just more like do. You know, come on. Let's bathing are needed, but I know that's not what you, chancellor, has a conversation going everywhere. You d, like all, let me

well. I can't just why you really don't demands, and actually I can imagine you to deepen, and so what I want. I wanted to know, which I ask really all of my guess when they first walk into my office, specially their drawn from some very visible swaths of pop culture. I just like knowing did what kind of math background did they have to have a science teacher that they like this there's some story. They could share with us about that experience and did that experience somehow influence their career path, and so, let's check it out. It was a math teacher who- taught math using Alice in Wonderland, which is a lot of symbolic logic, and Charles Doctrine was himself a mathematician. Yes, an error that was his some specialty, symbolic logic. If this says this than this means this, but then into that. In that I verily not necessarily yes, and

That's why I love that how many people in this universe get to say I have this wonderful math teach well, this is a rare well, it is where it should the first shouldn't be. I shouldn't be when I tell you it was the first of these is fascinating stuff. The next year I had sorry, a terrible math teacher in my grades went straight down and it just shows how much remains? Maybe if I was somebody else, I could just push through their NGO come on I'm interested in it. But when I finish high school things, a coin flip I was leaving go to science, engineering, all that or an art school. It was kind of a coin flip and I looking men I thought then I more fun at least it and the first part of the round. Look like the science and engineering us a lot of hard work, and then you get to actually exercise your imagination. To me, there seemed to be no difference in

the creativity and imagination that goes into either of those areas. I thought there. For me, as your moniker, it would you agree, the creativity in in the sciences math and science versus the arts is equivalent to that's. That's a big position he's taking here. And you study the stuff. Oh yeah. Now I dont make a difference between the two. So you agree completely fine, just anybody anything about Addison Wonderland, like this symbol, is an inadequate ones around in the US out. So Lewis Carroll was he's, he's a mathematician and ouses invention. Adventures in wonderland have been studied by mathematicians and just the phrasing the they bending of time. That's within it, it's all in there and in fact there is a delay. Morton gardener wrote a book called the annotated Alice where every passage within hours, inventors and one

has an explanatory note, but how it relates to math and science, and so are you making a face like not destroy the story, for you know my hands. The story for I was thinking about like that any fat website where you can go and see what they are talking about. All you know like ok, the generation of yea. I don't really is when I was like reading Alice in Wonderland and the tea party was like for a time, but I didn't I understand that, like that's, why they're all stuck there? are you ok time was gone missing, so you, so you think there should be a website for a classic. Literature gives translations of its total exports, so Monica what's going in the brain of a creative person when their being created. Well so interesting as I could, really mean as a whole brain process and use it should we bring gas for cars. Here is so, for example, at least in a music studies. Looking at musicians that are improvising, it's been shown that they have heightened activation and pray,

but our areas better areas of the brain so that there are obviously getting prepared to coordinate and action willing to set mean if your highly trained and we stand at- u dont trigger the that the motor parts of the brain ass heavily because it sort of wrote Israel, memorize asian case. If you gonna up with something on the spot. This would you say if this more height of activating the island is it free

Migration is the right time its volume with knowledge of a few it with you, I'm hanging which, and so another really interesting. Finding is deactivation. Prefrontal cortex and prevent a cortex is the seat of executive functioning. So being aware, moral thought, judgment of human makes us human Suzanne Executive remain high level high level. Thank you not or not talk him up business right from the very real gap Roma, although that's kind of high level functioning term answers which called deactivation. So perhaps you have to turn off awareness to be in this own to be able to improve those, an interesting fact that we ve seen or at least a hypothesis put it at that level where, if you have on bridled space to be creative, it might actually interfere with your ability to be creative and David Byrne actually wrote a book

Title was with how music works, but in there he explores constraints on creativity and how that can actually stimulate creativity. It's up. Let's see what he said, pleasure that we get through our senses. We tend to think of it as being connected to our hour. By nor tongues and our eyes and stuff, but physiological yes, but the all the work is going on our brains, anyone the eyes were just little stocks out there in the processing. Tells you what what you're actually seeing on what you're not saying what you're interested in what you're not interested in an end. The pleasure is in making those those things connect we tend to intellectual, think or separate, or maybe scientists don't but kind of common

conventional wisdom is that their there that the senses are out here and that our minds or saw in a different different place, but they're not their host. The closest I came to that. I was in the at the ban, Shell in Boston, and not yet there was at the Boston Commons where everything on the trolls River and it was Arthur feebler on July. Fourth playing for conducting of worse, they check huskies, eighteen, twelve overture. They have the howitzer cannons over on the side and there were fireworks. And so there I was listening to this bombastic. Viewing the cannons go off watching fireworks it a sensory over

I mean I'm delightful sensorium rarely do, have all those senses stimulated simultaneously and in harmony. Music is affected by all the contacts that surround it. They were affected by the kind of acoustics of where its performed their affected by the technology that records the music or the technology from the people to make the instruments and all the other stuff. They are affected by the financial stuff. How get paid or not paid or how you make. Living Ass, a musician affected by

how you we, the consumers or music, never think about that year. Yet we think it just comes just copy, just pause outcomes. Arguments like water coming out of a tap yeah, but it's there's. All these factors have been affected and it's it's sometimes unconscious. People know that if this is what can be reasonably done in this space in this room in this, for this amount of money, they start to himself at it and restrict themselves to thinking within those parameters, which is not a bad thing at all. I was gonna say exactly that in engineering last thing, an engineer wants is invent this thing for me and you have unlimited money and unlimited constraints. No, that's not what that's not where you extract the creativity of an engineer. You get the creativity by saying: ok here, the parameters, it's gotta do this under these conditions, under this temperature- and it's got a fit of this body,

and run on this much power. Go then! Oh, my god! This is a playground. The engineer yes and the same is true. It certainly true for me, so the constraints are not really constraints. They are another liberating liberate. They allow you to kind of ok. The clear I know, would what is the box that I need to work within the happier I am than I can eliminates that infinite number of choices and whatever do I've, just been lost in there? You reduce the variables yeah mathematically speaking if you're too many variables, you can't know, constrain the system. So you you ve but a titan out you, you got a clampdown on some other variables, leave a few that you can then manipulate. Examining get the thing to work. Yeah, art science had that common, so the two of you were both creative people in

own ways do agree. We we kind of agreed. I agreed with David that constraints are actually a good thing, not a bad thing and in a way, their liberating, which would you agree? We I think, though, like I'm definitely how much money you have to do something or like how much time you have to do. Something totally helps they give yours like unnoticed, Danny Gonna, write a book about whatever you just be there when we come back on stock. We pick up my interview with David Byrne and we'll talk about experimentation. Of course we do that in science, but apparently it's also a funding a part of course, when we return is restored

Gotta we're sitting on a neatly Hayden Sphere containing, I hate and monitoring of which I serve as director. So if future my interview with David byrne- and we got you May Higgins and Monica Lopez Gonzalez and the ban talking heads, I think, dissolved

ninety ninety one and that many years ago. So what you been up to well recently had its day did sought me had never done before, and here it is this here, I'm doing a project lamp bringing together ten CUP high school and slightly older colored. Our teams does the kids with the flags and savers and rifles and all the things that they do with ten kind of live musicians, can groups of live musicians who have written music, especially for these teams, and see what happens to those of a bit of paper up walking there and cramp in print a figure out? Ok, how how much can I play around an experiment and still find a way for it can pay for itself from and in and not just be like an indulgence, but I've kind navigated that, throughout my life, partly interest is in finding these kind of pockets of creativity

you're going on, I mean the musicians but musicians. I know I admire them. I love a lot of what they're doing this other stuff. Is something that I dont know that I kind of stumbled on, and I go look this all this kind of creativity, its outside of my world. New York, has never heard of it. It's going on out in all these other little towns and passionate their dedicated to what they're doing in their creating this crazy stuff. Somebody needs to bring it up and in social show. Some love and appreciation for what people are doing outside of kind of the official cultural Channel is then anything different. Philosophically spiritually from George Harrison learning about the sitter at a time when no one really knew what the star was in the west. Is that the same thing as as Paul Simon going to South Africa bringing some of those sound

and they're, going on and serving their niches, but maybe there's a place to give them a new birth or differ. There's lay under the similarity. Yes, because everybody's got music. Yes, everybody and yet some people are there. What they are doing is sometimes so beautiful and sophisticated, and you can learn so much from it. This other stuff, though, is more homegrown. It's more like oh there's something in my own backyard that I didn't know with their I'd. Never heard of this concept before homegrown creativity may be drawn from the firmament in look how verses something more mainstream. So Monica. Can you address that, sir? Does our creativity, what this comes down to Sharia and I like how he said: pockets finding pockets of creativity within that, because I think What I'm saying is that if you

you stay in your one, medium or discipline. Makes use remained stagnant in it and when you go and look at other mediums, other disciplines you and of having a larger vocabulary of information so who actually make big the constraints you can deal with, and so you can play with them at this point, and so, when you create something different that maybe somebody already knows about. It still different, because now you at your personal experience to it as much as you, bringing them amended along some direction. Example then not have happened otherwise, yadda novelty of it yeah incredible that he is like. I don't know what

the color guides is, but he said its children with savers and why not many said like New York doesn't know about it, but I think I think kids, its neighbours here for simultaneous sitting at that time, the incredible and that he would add music to that and then all of our heads would explode. It sounds so but also speaks to the value and need for experimentation, which is something we do in this in the signs lab, of course, its deeply associated with that activity. So so Monaco Tom, no desire to tell me about aren't S. Experiment tell me about it. I mean both art and science are about. You have question right. You have variables that you start manipulating and testing, and then you have a product and outcome. I just to track the scientific method as much as they artistic method, and so I think I mean they're identical, really issues the tools that you use. That's different or here's an interesting difference blade

when you experiment you can bomb yet well. I've, never personally bombs but I don't really guys in particular, who can do as yeah. Its brutal and it doesn't necessarily mean that it's like you went wrong or, like you, did it bad, but it's just not the results you were hoping for and our case, that's a laugh and the opposite of a laugh is like silence are like something being thrown at you and that's a tough one, the output kid. We also note here that in science I can form an experiment if it works at work. And it's not subject to any ones. Interpretation or anybody's is emotional state, whereas you as artists you're. If you are performing artists, as both of you are, you have to feed a mine

state, and maybe a fees this my state and not another one, maybe fees Tuesday night, not Friday night, so that's kind of different compared to my experiment in the lab, the reaction part of the wall, and if I voted differently on Friday, that idea Tuesday, I messed up in some really bad way, we'll, because science is about we have to tell me that you stability, I days, has an effect on my experiment. We invented the name days of the week right did that the days of the week have no had an arm again relevance yourself. So I think than the one difference between our science is that size is about reproduce ability yes but art, is all about creating something new. Every time you ve reproduce it it's not are in the sense of novelty, I would dare to say, like the Romans fair talk comes back we'll pick up. My interview with David Byrne will explore the relationship between music

And architecture on start on. Hey. I've got no secret for you When I consider singing all of the ads on this shell there's just one way to get out a hearing, they're good, patriarch arms last started tall and supporters at the five dollar level or higher to listen. The star talk ad free. You can download all current episodes into your favorite parkers player and never hear another commercial on star talk. Ever again, you will deaf I do not have to hear me saying if you support us at patriarch dot com last our talk, radio, I mean I'm just thing and I mean I'm just saying.

This is star tat we ve been featuring. My interview with David Byrne- and this next. They were able to get straight to it, because it is a highly the innovative idea regarding music and architecture. But let's see where he takes us on this topic when there's a certain size rooms at sound a certain way, the natural kind of artistic evolution is that the music that that's performed in them should sound the best in that room. The easiest Want to imagine is said, gothic cathedral, the music. It's generally heard- and there is very kind of

Long notes, not a lot of complicated harmonies or court changes, nothing very quick and rhythmic. It seems to me that we get lost in the around us, in the echoes of the chamber and the music that generally works best in that is the music that was written to be played in those spaces, allows for those long echoes and long echoes, actually enhance the music and make it sound, more spiritual and all inspiring again, of the cosmos whatever in you, but you can imagine tat. Ass people sometimes mistakenly do think. Let's have this, we can have this precaution ensemble play in the cathedral, because what a beautiful venue any rules when it sonic cultural disaster that would be Cluett just becomes this cacophony of of noise, and you just go. God bless, but this is the wrong kind of music for this room,

he developed? This concept in his book was a how music works in there elaborates on how the other Music has co moved with the evolution of the spaces in which it has been performed. And he gave the opposite example. I mean the inverse example where you have a small club and they do bring in monks, being to sing gregorian chance in a small, no, the it's, the music is different and if doesn't sound good in that space. It's not invited back to playing that space, so this is filtering that puts music in their proper venues, and I was intrigued by this bye, bye first by the acoustics of it. The fact that he thought about it- and I was just wondering- may you have a certain joke is funny in every size venue. Are you venue influenced totally like the one tat tone lake

many were deployed in Rwanda. Wonder here when partially come out of IRAN totally like comedy works best in small venues. I feel like they more intimate item of its to do it like likely or not or if it is to do with. Actually, it's a conversation, so you want to be close to them and you want to let the Damn breed and EU states They and I'm not. You know, but I feel I can see why our ordinary occupation of a one on one thing: they like a conversation, but then, when comics got really successfully book arenas, and then people often say that disappointing experience, because arenas are supposed to be like for, while export, romped music. Lord You know that you lose something but there's another issue regarding how we receive our music. And there was a day when I was only live with no recordings- another recordings. What was the court or than those radio and then there were recordings and

How do you in terms of what's portable- and you take a round with you? We we take a round the recordings and sound quality is an interesting it. It's not always the same, and does it influence your appreciation? These are interesting questions that that I ask, and I wanted to know what David Byrne thought about what when I was junior high, whatever twelve thirteen years old. Something like that and I first started listing music on the radio? It was on a little transistor radio bout that size that you can sneak into bed and quietly, listen to it under your pillow, and the speaker was that big Janey, whose tiny the sound on a contempt smartphones is probably better than what was on those those things, but at the same time, but still kind of very limited, and I realized the music that I was hearing out of this crappy do things,

changed my life and changed and made me realize what you hear this really crappy thing, but there's enough information there, for you know, there's a world out there, this people doing things better supply it's a portal and you go there's people doing things. I didn't know about and its speaking directly to me that little thing with a crappy sound does all that. So I thought. Ok, fidelity and the kind of beautiful sound that can be Bruce is not its it's wonderful But it's you have you can't demanded crappy sound can have a huge effect as well, so that money does he mean by fidelity. Good sound quality in the information is all the wrong information you have your hearing every bit of it regrets it fulfil. These is the is the

we produce music versus the music that was played because you got me might lose something going from one to any other. Ok, so he sank. He's arguing against this. You don't need a well not to be influenced by it, but I have to agree with that. Would you agree? I again. I think it depends on contacts at me because he said this little crappy thing, but because I was in my room, this area has as emotional content and I think it's up it's a cross border is very low in his back. I mean he's having fun time and I think that's affecting has experience with that, and also there is the question just art and General Smet to have an expressive quality you'll, get it no matter how your hearing it once our top returns. We will go into our cosmic queries mood and we will feel questions from our fan base. Asking about the physics of sound when we

better. This is starter- I'm gonna- get I've got Veronica is Gonzalez As you know, we ve been featuring my interview with David Byrne, but right now I'm gonna take a break from that and we got go to cosmic warehouses area, cosmic worries, or maybe you have collected questions from the start, talk families. I have not seen the questions before no point does not.

To stop me. I mean, if I don't have the answer to say I don't have the answer, but is more fun if I'd for here now for the first time yet, which is what you are about to do. Yeah physics of sound, ok, let's backward decision Derek as they wake Shia from cigarettes. How would voices and signs in general change from worlds? Two worlds, for instance, do sounds change in pay, and frequency on minors are tightened and, if so, in what ways? Yeah it's a great question, so so that the frequency with which your vocal cords vibrate depends on the density of the air in which their embedded, and so, if you breathe helium, was a very low density. Air. The frequency of your vocal cords rises, You sound like Mickey Mouse and what about the other places where, if the air is denser, then We regret this. You can get person with a high pitched voice and they sound like the munchkins

and the wizard of OZ, like someone, had really deep voices, deep gravelly voices, so you have. That can be so yes, yes, I am think much about that because normally were breathing the air we provide ourselves, you're, not going to say yes to breathe. Martian air smokers, you're not gonna, be worried about what your voice sounds like, while you're gasping for oxygen, It's a fact. I think it's just not practical to test. So yes, you also completely different on different planets, is great question write. Another question mica breeze from mountain view in California. Is it and make that opera singer is considered laugh by thinking high enough. I have not seen it done, but I don't see why it wouldn't be possible because their certain frequencies that are called resident frequencies in other objects and have ever done this goal, to which maybe not I did you, go to a tree. That's waste thicker than anything you you would

think of toppling, ok and then you just start pushing it right. If there is a rhythm with which you can put your tree, that pumps the tree in exactly the motion that you and originally set it to do, it's the same thing is pumping when you're on a swing. It's how you can just put yourself. Promotion. Without touching anything you sort of Sweden, your legs right at the right moment that will add to that motion. Then you took your legs back right at the right moment. She can do this a tree and you will hit a resident frequency of the tree, and if you do this enough, you can actually snapper tree in half and so yeah

I do not have time- is fun due to the point: why kill the training but fun to just watch? This pumping is with literally physics and physical pumping you pumping system. It was in a resident frequency of the system itself. This system wants to sway that rate of you pump it in exactly that way. You all that energy stays there and then a tree start blown wave and in the breeze and in its sense of power over nature. They did this. I'd still do today, so somebody's local court somebody's via written. So so you get so you get an object that has arisen in frequency can be guess that that a human voice can reach at a high enough for you and then it'll start vibrating. Ok, if it's at the resident frequency and if you can vibrate with enough

at that frequency. The glass is not going to be able to stay with you and you're just crack it, so that so that, so I guess it's off. Oh yeah yeah yeah raise a demo I found so we we ve been discussing so creativity, how manifest in art and science and- and I had an hypothesis that creativity in science is fundamentally different from creativity and art. You'd probably disagree, as did David Byrne, but why don't you hear me proposed to him you'll hear his reply and I desperately I'm interested in how you react. Let's check it out, I Stein discovers relativity and he's brilliant genius, although like, but none of us would ever say that without him, relativity would never be discovered. Somebody would discovered later or some combination of people. It would come out of it

It would rise up, whereas a Beethoven never compose his ninth symphony. Nobody is ever so. The work of art is singular in space. In a time where the work of the scientist, it may be a little ahead of its time, but it's time Always come she, I would argue that nobody right, Beethoven's nice symphony, but so he's gonna write something that partakes of a lot of the same elements. It may not be as good but the quality of the Zeitgeist Geisler, whatever there's inspired their inspired by what is available. At that moment, the instruments, the site, the concert halls. What orchestra you can put together what's available Whose commissioning how much the commissioner will put up with as far as innovation or other all those factors,

It will allow something to emerge that is maybe not as good, certainly not the same, but in the same universe as opposed to its progress. What I'm saying is is that, unlike Bach, it's going to sound more closer to Beethoven this is just me saying then thither that at any moment I would think- and I could be completely wrong- that when there's a Beethoven, there are lesser, Beethoven's come off, it orbiting orbiting around sometimes much lesser Then we will never ever care about. Some have chaotic orbits whatever it's the dead beside guy, says yeah, I'm really suspicious of the kind of singularity idea that there's where were the great man. Area of history or whatever that might be, or the arts where I do feel like than there are. Certainly

where law to the factors come into focus and that persons can benefit of buoyant forces? really kind of a boy of top and get shoot up. Like a found, it Thinking, there's a universe in which Beethoven creates and others are in that universe, so we don't have to think about whether someone will create that exact symphony, and I was just saying people praised that symphony and people praise relativity, but without the symphony there is no symphony for people to praise without relativity of Einstein. Somebody would come up with it later. That's all. I was trying to say there. So Monica I've been with science is looking for a sort of absolutes ideas, concepts that are independent of us. Yes, independent of our own creativity, while the Beethoven example by whoever it is is Exists only within us totally personal, but it's also dependent on society, culture, your environment context again

serving. There's a basque and there's can only be a box, but that doesn't mean that other individuals for around it is time would be influenced by similar factors, but because each person is unique with different experiences, they will use that in different ways. So when starch have returns willing to talk about artificial intelligence as a source of creativity, possibly supplant, the greatest creativity we ve ever expressed as humans. This- is starter.

The library, Garcia Louis all of the universe, the American Museum of Natural history, that this my day, job yeah yeah yeah, I'm dyin irrigate your copy them, because this is what I do. We would featuring my interview with David Byrne for highly creative guy founder in songwriter for talking heads and up to now we ve been talking. Creativity and how they can be a manifestation of your culture and how different things within your culture can produce one kind of creativity, verses and other, and at one point given our state of technology. At some point, you gotta ask the question

that creates music, that that has a creative. What the hell does your computer programs? That's what I should have asked well, I've written more than one to Graham, but the first programme that brought along notoriety was written in about nine. Needs answering now their people out there who are working on this, you can just Google S. Professor David, cope from you, see Santa Cruz, he's written a computer program that can compose original music and I'm thinkin. Should you be scared of this? If you write music I like your indignant with which who answered mighty when what we ve got. Professor David cope on video right now lie from you, see Santa Cruz. Can you

demand for me working to talk honoured to be here so, professor, you, you ve written a computer program that create music that that has creative what the hell does your could put your programme. Do that's what I should. We ask: well I've written more than one programme, but the first programme. Brought a lot of notoriety was written in about nineteen. Eighty at it's a program called experiments and musical intelligence, and it fundamentally is a program takes a database of music by typically a classical composure, because their day, and because they can't shoot me for imitating their style. It takes up a large body of that music, again, analyzes that music and and fundamentally tries to create.

A new composition in this style of that music, but essentially not replicating any of the pieces that are in the database. So I'm told you actually have a clip you can share with us. Yes, I do it is it's a part of one of the movements of a work not written by Vivaldi but hopefully in the vote? These style called the disorder. Ok, let's do it. Sure that's crazy. That's like I can listen to the other was in that all day. You too, and in an intense, are not like music historian

did you just told me that was Vivaldi, after you lost concerto. Founded is attic, ok, some so Monica we have Monica here, who is a musician and cognitive, neuroscientist and also a playwright. So how does this sound to you? that was all day that you ve got the centrality up here. I will act social tensions in tax, so the grammar grammar, recycle grammar mean you'd. Have should it perfectly well, the forum socially, the future. Do we just get rid of musicians? Now? What will you well? We needed the musician To Morrow you programme after You need a worthy to imitate of yes, ok, so I was Picasso imitate, someone else was revolving. Imitating someone else was

the NGO imitating someone else. So this is derivative creativity, not the peers, kind of creativity we might seek and value in the human species. Is that an area of interest? there is no purist creativity, creativity is all borrowed, oh once each other search engines so you're, citing the cross influence of everyone. So, whether not someone even admitted you're saying, is derived from somewhere absolute ok, so you just doing the same thing. Everybody so it is up to two years after this? Ok, here's, I wonder, are you. As creative as your computer program is more so in fact that I mean I went through a lot of a I techniques back in the early, and they all failed. So, finally, I ask myself: how would I do this self and then I'm model the programme on what I would do to do. What the problem

I'm does programmers fundamentally doing exactly what I would do had I been asked to create a proper movement work by not before, but sounded like the buggy and naming tourism them, so it if in fact, you programmed into the computer a piece of yourself. In a way? Yes. Well. So this is the early stages of just uploading, you're, your mind body and soul into a computer, I've worked Professor cup thanks for joining us all too. If we start talk- and maybe we can find another way to tap your crew, you're you're meet your musical compost That's my religion coming up we'll know explains I created. I started

this is starter. the American Museum of Natural history. Right here in the heart of New York City, we can catch up with my good friend bill, my senses disk patches from around the city I don't know where he is. I never know until I see the cliff where he is, but he sends these in and he knows the topic, and so this topic is the science of creativity. Let's see what he sent us creativity, important to us, you I mean just think about that. Were music comes from me You do what you up with a new melody and new lyrics for that new melody as complex, It comes out of nowhere. That's creativity and I think creativity. Very important to humans survival I mean imagine being out there on the savanna getting here.

With a hungry lion, going to come up with an escape route. You gotta be creative right now, Of course, we all know people who have no creativity whatsoever and those people end up in management, but for the rest of us, creativity is is were this came for me, I'm sure it started out in ancient times with vocalists. Somebody in the tribe would go, and then What else in the tribe would go that word somewhere that led to a melody and then eventually vocal, nations that we're standardized and everybody can understand them in the tribe celebrated that an elevated those people to the point where it people like your melodies invoke vocalizations enough. Printed on a final record and put up for sale even those of us who think we have no musical ability. It all we we love to sing because creativity, this brings that out on us. Will you be in creative,

to tell the world I'm create, I'm singing I'm creative, I'm singing I'm creative imo sex machine, I'm creative singing the other is a big issue, probably in other places in the world, but we feel it a lot here and in the states that funding for arts education is always.

Stress and at school boards are wondering: do we cut the aren't? We keep the science and there's tension. We know this and I brought it up with David Byrne and he had strong views on that, as well as China. In order to really succeed in whatever math and science and engineering, I tat you have to be able to think outside the box and have to be creative problem solving and the way those disciplines are taught is not totally creative. The creative thinking out at all, not at all it's more like this is this. This is this. This is, is the creative thinking is in the arts. A certain amount of arts education doesn't mean that your ambition is to grow up to be a painter, but you can use that kind of thinking and apply it

Anything else, business engineering Sally better at it and you are better at that. You succeed more than, bring more to the world, because you have these abilities that came from outside of your discipline, so bringing different worlds together, has definite tangible benefits into kind of cut one or separate them is to ensure that men and cripple them a lot of fun. I think creative thinking, imaginative thinking, are really with one another the things that make us front from machines, are not all our kind of rational thinking that pretty easy to copy it's the the other stuff to me and imagination or creativity, is a kind of inventing. Imagine something the peasant existed before

and in the sense that there is a relationship, when in confabulation and regulation and making up making up stuff, which is very close to lie down there's a relationship between creativity and deception, you're not going down a man, if you following me, it's a little bit of a stretch, but I'm thinking to be able to make them kind of creative leaps. You also have to be able to deceive there's a dark side to it, where you can deceive other people? You can tell them stories that aren't quite true you in that. What makes us human? You can make up story. True? You can make up stories that could be true and that things that happen, happened, yet that are wonderful and somehow we navigate between those things: if we have a moral compass or whatever but a machine does not have a moral compass

I cannot believe that a lot of our decision making is not rational. You that we rationalized we post rationally, we rationalize after we ve already made. The decision I'm an excuse. I did that because there. Well known effect in psychology that year study that but the thing is: how do you navigate between the two? If you have too much wanted to much of the other you're you're kind of villages off even Lou depend yet are also opened up and at the end of the day I ll have to sell it for rent. So you can't take all a finger has to stay in Rio. Exactly one year. There are their crazy artists in. Is it it's a popular me Mister Paraday story than that, but captain get to be able to survive? To hear? I basically agree with everything he said in these interviews. I mean I just hate, he's he's a deep thinker, he's creative he's, educate,

and so he thought, sir. They put together in ways that really resonated with me. When I think of culture I think I think if you visit other countries and then they show you what it is, that makes them them and not you and almost every case you do this. You are looking at their art you're. Looking at their architecture, you are looking at aspects of their civilization that has been empowered by science and engineering and so for anyone to say, let us cut art for anything else. Suppose they did that back in Renaissance Europe. What what? What? What would Europe be without the support and interest in a thriving culture of art, as we readily spend money to visit these cities

go to their museums to turn how to say now going to cut the art budget here. That makes no sense to me and It may be that science and art which we know Also to go together, the arts and sciences are colleges of institutions. It may be that art and science thought of in that way are the only true things that we create that last beyond ourselves. Everything else comes and goes the leaders, the politics, the economies. So am I biased. I dont know what I do know is: if there is a country without art, that's not a country. I want to live

There's a country without science, you're living in a cave. We measure the success of a civilization by how much by how well they treat their creative people and I'm just fortunate as host of star talk to creative people. Here for the show, so thank you may thank you Monica. Thank you, David Byrne, for shown up in my office for that you ve been watching our top on the American Museum of Natural history. I've read your hopefully autograph Thyssen, your personal asked for businesses and, as always, I bid you do like Galileo job the organs

which you can listen to star talk Commercial free Joe Star talk on Patriot on for as little as five dollars per month and the ads will disappear, learn more at patriarch dot com last star talk, radio.