Support for this episode comes from the University of Chicago people, argue about anything and everything, but when we argue about human rights, though there is a lot at stake, there's a new podcast out of you, Chicago about human rights, is called entitled. Co hosted by lawyers. Tom Ginsburg, Claudia Flores, they'll use their expertise, advising governments across the world on all sorts of human rights issues to explore. I rights matter and what's the matter with rights, the show launches later this summer subscribe wherever you get your podcast from CAFE, welcome to stay too I am preparing. So much of my work in the Senate. Is to bring a legislative edge to them your euro coins of our country and the law, Escalation becomes easy when You start having a greater consciousness of the wretchedness of the persistent wretchedness of the reality.

In which we live, and our unconsciousness to our own history. Not knowing ourselves I'm makes it very hard to correct the ills of today. That's New Jersey, Senator Corey Booker, he's held that role since two thousand thirteen years previously the mayor of Newark gaining time for his work and reducing poverty and bringing commercial development back to the city, reset it judiciary and foreign relations committees. Booker has played a central role congressional oversight of the rush investigation and in present trumps, recent impeachment worker recently, co authored the sweeping George Floyd Justice and Policing ACT can he's introduced a bill to

move, confederate statues from the? U S cabin and oh yeah. He also recently ran for president. That's coming up stated: let's get to your questions. This question comes in a tweet from the Chuck Hansen, I'm sure the hundredth person to ask tonight. But what is was the constitutional justification for giving the president the power to commute, slash, pardon and they add, by the way, were watching Andy's Ambrose New Flick palm springs. Why hope you enjoy that movie and a very impressive your thing about constitutional issues? At the same time, you watching any Sandberg so

and a lot of people been asking, obviously, in the wake of the limitation of the sense of Roger Stone. That's first look at what the party in power in the constitution actually is it's an article two section, two of the nice, its constitution, the commander in chief clause that lays out some of the powers of the present it starts with the president shall be commander in chief of the army and Navy of United States in the militia. Of the several states, etc, etc, and it goes on to say- and he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offences against the United States, except in case, of impeachment. So the limitations there you see with respect to criminal law in the United States is it has to be an offence against the United States, which means a federal crime. Stay crimes cannot be pardoned by the President of the United States and its allies, in fact, most crimes that are charged in the country and except in cases of impeachment. So if the Congress takes care to repeat some one that cannot be undone

by the president and pretty much. Everything else is fair game, as I notice have been saying it's one of the broadest and most unfettered powers of the president as set forth in the constitution, and does not really anything anyone can do about it. If you like, the pardon with a commutation, so why have it in their? Essentially, the founders thought it would be a good check on the judiciary. It's part of a system of checks and balances that you find throughout the text instruct of the constitution as Alexander Hamilton, set forth in one of the federalists papers that focuses on the pardon power federals number, seventy four He wrote quote without an easy access to exceptions in favour of unfortunate guilt. Justice would wear a countenance two sanguinary and cruel end quote Imagine there is low debate about the pardon power and there was in fact like there is at the moment in the wake of the Roger sown situation. Real concern about self dealing, pardons I'll. Give you a couple of examples.

In one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven Virginia delegate, Edmund Randolph, raise the following point at the constitutional convention quote, the prerogative of pardon in these cases was too great a trust. The present himself be guilty. The traders may be his own instruments. There is a concern. Forty ran off and others that the pardon power extending even to commuting or pardoning acts of treason, which some of these folks thought was a bridge too far towards Mason didn't want to ratify this point saying the quote: the present ought not to have the power pardoning because he may frequently pardon crimes which were advised by himself. End quote sound familiar, but the report from the federalists was you kind of needed. This check in the political process would be the cure and one other point Look you're Missus James Madison, responding to the criticisms of the Pardon power quote if the President be connected in any suspicious manner with any persons and their be ground. To believe he will shelter himself. The House of Representatives can impeach him.

They can suspend him? One suspected and the power of pardoning will devolve on the vice president. This Madison Road is a great security. End quote wonder what they think of the current situation. Obviously the anticipated it, but they also anticipated a robust response from worse, we ve already a pistol from once. There are some saying we should do it again, but that's what the founders thought and that's what the people who are opposed to the Pardon power thought the Federalist One out- and here we are Whose question comes in an email from Ruth in New Jersey? I pre hoping for your insight on this. What do the lawsuits being filed by various yours universities, against the recent ice announcement on F one m one visas practically mean darling of his suits delay. The implementation of the ruling signed Ruth and Icy, who visa and ice gods willing, is starting her Pierre, in the fall currently living working and studying Antarctica from her bedroom in New Jersey. Well, that's a great place from which to so the Antarctic. I think

So obviously you wrote this question and email before a very recent development. The kind of answers, your question for sure. Referring to ices July six policy announced on July. Sixth, the barred international student from staying in country if their schools remained online due to the threat of covert nineteen on college campuses and the movement and I visa city students, and they would have had to leave the country basically immediately and as an old woman. I talked about this, I'm a calf insider pod, it's a move that seems to be grounded in in body, and in an overall anti immigration sentiment and the parlous ministration and, in particular, Stephen Miller, and in the wake of that policy, various universities, most notably Harvard and MIT, fallen and for a temporary restraining order. Attacking the move is arbitrary and capricious and they wanted to court on Tuesday and LO and behold on Tuesday Last minute and kind of surprisingly to everyone, the Trump Administration,

to rescind the July six policy. So I guess in some ways you could say that the filing of those lawsuits have an immediate effect and that was a retreat from the position that was interesting is. Why was such a withdrawal of the position. In fact, as I was discussing my family yesterday to my mind into my recollection, is the quickest and most complete surrender on a legal point by this administration since the beginning there about other things, but there has been some retreat from, but nothing so swift is this. You know the way to get there had handed them by one court or two courts before they moderate their position, but in this case at literally the first proceeding in federal district court a went back on their position? One that happened there's no. There is no clear explanation provided by the government that I'm aware of it could be the massive massive response to this arbitrary and capricious decision to say

all these international students back even one colleges we're making arrangements to keep the students here then, even though the reason they were going online for some period of time was because of the corona virus. As the Wall Street Journal reports quote, nearly six colleges and universities filed a friend of the core briefing on Monday, followed by a flurry of legal base from additional colleges, higher education associations and also companies, including Adobe Systems, Microsoft, Twitter and others, the Wall Street Journal called an extraordinary railing forces on short notice that only that attorneys or from seventeen state in the District of Columbia also suit, as have the University of California and twenty other search universities from the western- U S so by the time, got to. Yesterday. Nine separate lawsuits chow during the new rules were filed. So it was happening, It by higher education is something that is opposed by immigration advocates and perhaps most notably for the administration. It was among those opposed by lots and lots of business interests, but perhaps it

Factor here also, colleges and universities often rely on full paying international students to meet their budget needs and if you send them back, you can charge them to wishing. So maybe there is a financial factor that the administration finally took into account as well. The bottom lies for now the ice move from July six presented. There is some speculation that their working on a more tailored order and rule, and this idea of sending international students back to the countries they came from could be back. The table will see, but at least we know that universities. And businesses are mobilized on the issue and if it comes back to court, they'll find it hard again as they should stay tuned. There's more coming up right after this. According to Forbes Jim's, nail salons hotels, moment, hop, stores and more are set to go on an epic hiring spree in the coming months.

Businesses are expanding to meet the pent up demand for all of these services. The thing is higher has never been more complicated. We dont know the world will look like next week, let alone next year in charge of hiring for your company. You could probably use a little backup and you can. And tries to for free at zero cougar dot com, Slash creek when you posted job on zip recruiter, based your job to over one hundred tough job sites, giving you act. As to their network of millions of job seekers, zip recruiters, matching technology scans Reza amazed to find qualified candidates for your open roles and proactively presents them to you, now you can try zip recruiter for free at this exclusive web. Address zip, recruiter, dot com, slash preach the zipper. Couldn't calm, slash, p r e t just go to zip, precluded com, Slash pre, zip, recruiter, the smartest wait a higher. Well, it's finally happening

the world is opening up again and were hearing the word normal being tossed around a lot more, but after the year we ve had truly feeling normal is going to take some time and a little bit of work. If you of the many people who might be feeling overwhelmed and anxious, or if you find yourself having more bad days than you care to talk, space might be for you now more than ever is important for us to be patient with ourselves and seek out the support we might need. After all, half of american struggle with mental health tax base is here to health talks base is secure, affordable and easy to use your mental health matters and whether your apparent student or even part of a couple, that's looking for more support talk space has the right sort of professionals to meet your needs. Why wait leaks for unemployment when you can match with a licensed therapist today, with the tax base app set goals with your therapist on your schedule, chat any time and conduct live video sessions from anywhere

All part of my talk space is the number one online therapy platform to help you sort through any issue match with a licence therapists when you gonna talk spaced out, come and get one hundred dollars off your first month with a promo code preach. That's why dollars off when you use code preach a talk, space, dot, com, My guest today, usually Senator Corey Booker, has been busy crafting letters. Action to address the inequities of the corona virus pandemic. He also co author, the George Voice, justice and policing at one of the most ambitious pieces of law enforcement reform ever brought before Congress. We talk to the bills plus Booker's commitment to fight political polarization with love sinner, Corey Booker. Thank you so much for being on the show. Are you kidding me, I

so excited to be subjects. I too have you. I love it. When I watch you on the news you have made geek so Sheikh and nerve so cool that dimension being won the great commentators on this country and where we are right now, so it's an honour to be here with you. Well, that's that's so nice. I can ask a bunch of questions, but instead perhaps you just continuing out, so I should say the audience who is not with us live that we record this on Monday July, thirteenth, its after nine p m. This is the latest podcast recording of ever done. So it's a little bit to stay tuned after dark

so I don't. I don't know what that will mean for the show. I think you should call this. You know you got a breed after breed amyloid beta. Exactly are you drinking? Give it a glass? Yes, oh yes, I do our, I oh yes, I do you. Could you can hear that you can hear that this make more much more interesting conversation. I also want to make sure that you know for a proper context. You may know this, but I was raised in New Jersey, summit, Jersey Guy, what town so I grew up in a town called you ten New Jersey, my dad was a pediatrician for forty plus years in Asbury Park, New Jersey. Why That's a real I'm, a new Yorker now, but very much in New Jersey guy, but that some serious jersey credits breakfast

it is sometimes it has very park. You have you have lifetime membership in the New Jersey Club. I do and you actually one of the great accomplishments of my life recently- is that the New Jersey, efficiently Jersey, Twitter feed, began following me: no status and Bristol people don't know that that twitter feed is quietly hot is hot any end and he is hilarious. It is a great twitter feed at these. I think it's the only spit state twitter feed that officially, has moxie? Do we say moxie injures? Yet? Oh no. I will say the Jersey, but I did it. I just want to speak that now I thought Moxie was more one of those like antique words that we know it might be there. When you pull it out, people go Lou Moxie. There was a tweet, a date that that account sent today about one of the things will be talking about you're, the changing of names and the removal of Sacho

but it's a reference to the Redskins changing their name and that New Jersey, dot com account tweeted DC is about to get a new jersey, I don't know it's pretty good. I cannot help but being a guy who loves a good bad joke adult promptly. I will tell you more and more of them, but that is a bit his great. That is great Huber. So how is the Senate as a technical, mechanical pragmatic after dealing with the krona virus. Are people distancing? Are you still taking that little subway to the floor, like how's it working just data day, so, first, or body is in and of itself. I still remember it was back in the days. Good, laugh at sort of things like this early in the crisis when we were being briefed by. I think we are the skiff tubes, we're in the classified briefing room about these

virus, and they were describing it and and still not taking it in my opinion seriously they should have, but they said almost like to leave it as if it really only affects people you know seriously. There are over sixty five and might have some under conditions and someone the centres raise your hand, goes you mean the United States Senate end everybody laughed but in all seriousness we are a population of people. Most of us that fall within that population is most vulnerable to this crisis, so bright eyes, seen out their us take a lot like a lot of our committee hearings. Now you don't have to go to you can do it from your house and when we vote the voting time has been extended a lot. We don't all crab onto the floor right away and mask wearing, especially at this last July, has been a lot more consistent everywhere, amassed you're, always wearing asked, I wouldn't say Always I would say when I'm around

around. Other people aware mask but late at night, when I'm walking the sin always- and I don't think I'm in a hurry Nobody, I'm not going to ask how about ran, pause, you, mask now? I you know I I dont remember this last couple weeks because even Mitchell, Colonel now, as bragging about his mask wearing honest Instagram account, but I am pretty sure Rand was not wearing a mask else. You you wanna, can't you went out the other senators, we're not wearing mask. No, I think we're seeing really strong compliance right now. I have to say I think that this last, a resurgence in the South and South West has really snapped a lot more adherence. I mean had the President states war mask and public this week. For the first time, Did they realise that we are so far out of the norm of other nations that have responsible governments from Taiwan, which I think is right next to it

China and yet has seven deaths. If I ever right seminary death to South Korea to New Zealand come trees have taken this responsibility. Had a national coordinator response arguments. While we are have, I guess what is it a quarter of the globes cases and rising? And this is really really problematic, so I think that that is now giving people more of a sense of urgency, because I'm not just about, I think for some of them. I don't mean to be so cynical and I dont know exactly what their thinking is. But I know that people realise that if we are still at a point where this is not going down, the party that is most responsible of a may pay a dire price for that when we have an election hundred days from now, do you feel in some ways? that the Congress is powerless to take the lead on this. So if there's a in some areas in the country, if there is a gap in leadership vacuum in leadership in the executive branch

Sometimes Congress can step in and do something are your things that you folks can you and your colleagues can do to step into the breach, because we're not do well so this has been one of those times have been proud of my caucus, because when Mitchell Conall tried to pass the first couple covered packages, I'm gonna blame for it. We stood fast and sat down, and is that all you're holding a vital help we said now until we one significant risk once it have stepped into the breach the expanded on it. Women insurance Duration in amount was because we stand stood true the idea of getting hospitals lot more resources than at that time seemed especially life or death happened. Other expanded reason so we ve been able to stay together is a cautious where you need sixty votes in the Senate, pass these bills and refuse to cooperate until they move the bill further in terms of it,

dealing with economic fragility and the medical crisis in some other issues as well, but what what you're talking about, I think, is the gap that we can't stand into to have had a present from the very beginning that stood up and said hey. This is serious as a man a patriotic duty like our forefathers and mothers, whose together through a great depression, stood together through world war. We're going to have a national mobilization against this, both impersonal practices and in community practices as well as in mobilizing a national track and trace testing a supply chain, we're. Gonna take the sullen as if we are fighting a world war, because this is pandemic is a world war. We would obviously not be where we are today there would be many more people alive and that's the kind of leadership that the Congress can't provide because it does not have it's not constitutional power to provide that kind of leadership, and that is what was really been hurting me,

and we need moral leadership. The command and control leadership that you only get from executive We have seen the president. It's been there during this crisis. I think it has nothing to do with party, because we ve seen presence of both parties perform well under crisis. This is been just simply because we have a man who is uniquely on qualify for this kind of crisis and has been rendered a naked before This nation- I haven't done, don't say that that's our noses audio, but that a very fair picture, I figured it leads to Libya in the minds of our listeners. We already established a business breed after dark and I think that's paraded knife tonight there is another whole area of government, not the federal government, but local mayors and you were a mayor for a period of time, mayors and governors. Can they step up and fill the gap. It is not doing it and you see that happening or is it does it depend on the state and the city. It seemed very non. Consistent now will personal

I'll give it to the governors in general. We have governors and mares onto a lot. Things right in certain states and I live in a region in New York in New Jersey, where we have two governors and a lot local leaders. I look at the map on CNN today and there were only like three or four states that were green. I e the case is going down and I am proud of the local leadership by witnessed in my state and in my sort of metropolitan area Dillon was one of those states as well, but there this only so much he could do. I remember sitting in the command centre in New Jersey, with my governor talking to the White House, his team Thinking to myself what you just remarkable to me that they were sounding as if we were still being governed under the article, confederation, this confederation of states were already possibly resides with them and not with any kind of central coordinated government. It was- tarnishing to me that they did not want to take responsibility for coordinating apportioning and bringing up

Strong supply chains are doing them. The death of that crisis and so you know, there's some governors that are obviously outliers as we are seeing in places like Florida. The reality is our governors now still need there to be a national world war. Two like mobilization around testing, which is still wilfully low in the United States, track and trade We could have done that. We did that with tears agents of national, a workforce, kissing on these issues. Are there still on some serious issues around supply chain and more and then just the moral leadership when you have a president, its tweeting out more than but the girl liberate be state. I just talked to I still my leader in Michigan, who was telling me that things were going well, those lotta bipartisan work and then the president when he said that it was striking a match and throwing it at the state of Michigan. Because suddenly you had the polluters zation of of science. It's as, if we're,

responding against the age of enlightenment and going against the state with the science that we all know to be true, and instead it became political. Yet since you say that, I wonder if you think the present is basically grown, tired and weary of this and has given, because it seems like furthered what you just said. Second ago that the White House more time in the last twenty four to forty eight hours providing opposition research against Anthony found. She then undertaking any serious, no policy review. Will you make of the attacks on their own health official, widely respected by both parties for decades? Would you think of that? Look there? something powerful about real leadership, the military leader that will at last. After all there there are men and women have eaten the that will charge into battle. First Billy that no self sacrifice and humility,

I got one with the characters of leaderships leaders that we hail and Harold I mean the stories of Washington during just some of the harsh winters in But this is just not that this is a guy that seems and a White House so obsessed with the president himself. It's about his own ego. What about their own electoral longevity, their reelection its Everything seems to be filtered through bad, are not what's in the best interest of their supporters in Tulsa, heck bring them out. We saw as one of the form presented. Candidate and former head of the National Restaurant Association, who was I heard was in the hospital who twin attended that right without a mask from a king. You know he seemed to be content with putting other people at risk. Other people in danger, How is going to relate to him? Remember? We started this crisis with him talking about not letting people off of a ship, because how the numbers might make him look and you fast That's him now saying

governors who don't want open schools. It must be about wanting to make him look bad, and so not being able to do anything but focus on himself in a crisis that demands a president to do not care about. His own reelection oars himself, what the well being of a country and by the way, if he had started that way, These numbers would be so much better. So again, I just the is uniquely qualify for this moment I can't get into his head Don't know what the eternal thy love in the White House is, but I know that they are spectacularly failing this moment in history. Can avoid that fact, when you have cut case, is going up so dramatically in America such an outline are when it comes to the cases, and it really falls at the front door of the White House from taking another

feature of this. This terrible pandemic, at least in the United States- and that is another subject that is very close to your heart and should be close to everyone's heart, and that is that the krona virus is disproportionately affecting in a very dramatic way. People of color black communities in particular Why is that? And what does that say about us and what can be done about it? Well, I think we first have to tell her the truth we live in a nation There has never been a time where there have been savage disparities in the distance of Americans a long lines of rates to extend everywhere from housing to jobs and employment, to education, to health care to even the very air that we breathe. A nun. For one indicator of weather. We're. Breathing toxic air drinking toxic water living near Superfund cite the most predictive feature. Is the color of your skin

and so, if you know you already living in a country where blacks have higher rates of diabetes, hypertension, higher rates of asthma, lower life expected, these, then of course, this disease is going to accelerate that a course a downturn, economy or blacks are are represented in the in the jobs that are deemed essential. I you have to go to work there, you're gonna, see it ravishing more african Americans ended there, economically viable. Therefore, to this to this virus. So this is praying upon those things look I live in a amazing city that by design housing discrimination red lining distant meant outright racism Steel in New Jersey was a state that had horrible. Real estate, steering preventing blacks from moving into the sufferers. My parents had to get a white couple to poses them to buy the house. I grew up in in New Jersey.

And so did the community I live in, which has a disproportionate amount of environmental hazards. The county incinerator. It has the highways intersect inside of it, and all the things are done. This was create. This is a community created to be poor in generally it. So you have all these issues and environmental toxins compounded by. Racial segregation, compounded by poverty, further accelerated by a criminal justice system that is so savage as grew up in a white community went to elite schools, I stammered anyhow, I saw a lot of drug use in my journeys in my youth. And now living in New Jersey. I'm stunned that chilled blackmail and who do the same things I saw the morally and privileged children. Do it into the criminal justice system at rates are astonishing, rubber, doesn't seventeen there's more marijuana arrests, then all violent crime arrest in this country combined

there's, no differently blacks and whites for using marijuana or smoking. Marijuana selling marijuana, but blacks are about four times. Likely be arrested for- and you know this then there is a life sentence, because when you have a criminal conviction for doing things to the last three presidents admit doing for the rest of your life. You gonna find it hard to get a job. You have to check the box that says you're, colonel conviction. You can't load from banks because you have to check the box. The criminal conviction that American BAR Association points to forty eight thousand collateral consequences for doing things to last week, President Seward did get caught all this is going on in America right now, and we we are wondering why were seen such carnage for disease as feasting upon the unjust is that already existed and so forth the urgency of this moment in time or not just what we're seeing with other horrific deaths of George Floyd embryonic tailor. The endemic

what of systemic racism is real and our country that is just the ultimate a violent manifestations of a deeper problems we have with justice So there are other areas of injustice that you talked about, and you proved it too, before I had a chance to before I get to some of the issues relating to criminal justice reform and the aftermath of the killing of George Floyd. Don't ask you about a bill that you I think you have sponsor before and you have reintroduced call. The removal act can describe what it is and what you think about its chances. Well, well, I I just want to say to you that this is time in american history where we have to begin to have a broad. But our conversation about race than the law, as it were, trying to put in place This is this: is Would you mind if I am Anthony your next? What book did I just finished by

the cloud then I just want to read you a paragraph away again, and you know it's funny guess so. I interviewed during normal business hours today, Eddie Cloud. Are you serious gap for for a package that will be dropping the week after yours does so it's good our deepest Baldwin says that America's always changing, but it never changes. So you know always moving, but then there's something under underneath it. There is constant, so one could say you know if you hold the belief that why people matter more than others, that believe looks like it looks like one thing in the context of slavery, looks like another in the context of Jim Crow, and it looks like another in the context of the first black president right, but the bleak still obtains across

different historical epochs right is still doing work, so you know we're hearing the lie right now right, the way in which has been reasserted in the face of black lives matter in the chain, challenge to the form of policing in the country were hearing it in the defence of confederate monuments, in the defence of our heritage and the defence of a certain under standing of America's beginnings and that's a reassertion of the lie that bears a family resemblance to what we ve been telling ourselves. Since I found I love that the fiscal he and I are doing a instagram live on Sunday evening, where we're just gonna have a conversation about race and that this is a paragraph that he cases quoting bald one page, a hundred and five of his book, and I wanted to say it's a quick pair rapid. It speaks to the agony of moment, and it says I'm talking about what happens to you. If having barely

escaped suicide or death or madness or yourself, You watch your children growing up and no more What you do, no matter what you do! You are powerless, were really powerless against the force of the world that is outdated your child. Has no right to be alive and no one of liberal jargon and no amount of talk, about how well and how far we have progressed does anything to soften or point out any solution to this dilemma: Every generation ever since negroes have been here. Every Negro mother and Father has had to face that child Try to in that child, some way of By doing this particular world, some way to make the child, who will be despised, not despise himself I don't know what the negro problem means to white people, but this

what it means to be negroes and in it, its Baldwin's writing. There is a stunning indictment of We are in this country, which is this horrific tradition that my parents taught me that, as an eight as an enemy eighth grade when, when I had grown over six feet tall and was a Why, in a man's body, they began to have to try teach me that perceptions of me could cause my death. They could cause my bondage. They can cause me severe bodily harm, and then I have, to, especially as I started to drive and witness this myself with with growing up with mostly white friends, but yet my disproportion interactions with the police to be accused of stealing things all the time to be

low to be survey out. It is this deep understanding of the truth of our country that we are still trying to throw off the yoke of of bias of of racism of people being treated differently in this country, not because the content, the character. The quality, their ideas, but because the color of their skin and so much of my work, then it is to bring a legislative edge to the larger moral callings of our country, and the just listen becomes easy when we start having a greater consciousness of the wretchedness of the persistent wretchedness of the Rio, he's in which we live and are on our unkind, business to our own history- either knowing ourselves I'm makes it very hard to correct the ills of today. If you Don't know about you, removal acceded the water. You know what the eighteen thirty,

by Andrew Jackson. If you dont know about the massacres in order, Please history, not just the native Americans, but from the Colfax massacre to Rosalie as to the slaughter of African Americans in the eighteen hundred and nineteen hundreds. It is very hard for you to address the injustices of today, and so I have spent a lot, is the fourth a black person ever popularly elected them. State Senate, knowing everytime. I stepped onto that Senate for the weight of history. And especially the weight of history unexamined the urgencies that exists in this country. Today too, you're not for the sake of black people? Are native people latino people, but for the sake of all of us all of our well being hangs in the balance right now and the question it Eddie asked so persistent is. We are a nation in search of ourselves. Will we indeed become a true what he racial democracy, war, we perish. Because

of our inability to address you, justice There is still so separate us in this nation by schools I residence by prison bars. I hope it will be before we get to some of the legislation. Then, following up on the point you just made, has it become easier with respect to some of your fellow senators if some of your fellow senators become more awakened and open to these in a falsehoods and become more aware of the legacy of racism is every and everything else in the wake of the killing of George Floyd? Have you noticed the difference in it? quality of the conversations you're having with your peers, The short answer is yes, absolutely on both sides of the Isle. And the answer is no, where I've had in this way. A few weeks banging my head against some of my colleagues that just don't seem to understand, and still you know, is one of my colleagues that the judiciary hearing what we were too. About just the general challenges with

structural racism and he went off. You changed the phrase from systemic the structural racism. What does that mean? That means every thing every institution every person in America's racist and not even understanding, but the differences when institutional racism, it please racial bias, even in were bigotry and then, when I listen to him, I realise that this would seem to be more of a talking point to me to enrage a grievance politics among their public. It base that the problem when you notice that the pulling in the past- I have shown that there are a large percentage of White Americans thought that reverse racism was is a bigger problem than racism and and Oh, I see both in the Senate in an office. Frustrated ah there we're not leading with a yearning to understand, but still digging

in it. That's the reason why I believe we haven't past something as simple as the lynching act. That's why I think we have passed as some of the sort of common sense things actually lower taxpayer costs. An elevator human flourishing in our country, thought for a minute, then about the confederate statues that still take up space at the capital. So. What we are trying to do right now is something very soon a very obvious, which is that that there is about afford a five year period Erica where Americans really and treason against the United States and law armed rebellion against this country and in the process plunged us into the bloodiest war or of our country's history in defence of the enslavement of other american and what we have in this in the capital of the United States of America. Right now is what is

in arguably some of our most sacred civic space we have statues are tributes to these traders. Tributes to those who engaged in horrific slaughter in the name of defending slavery against their own country, and so my no other we introduced is to remove those statues from our capital. Every state Folks know every seat gets to send two statues to represent. I think that the language is the character of their state, the spirit of their state, and we have seen States that have been steadfast of all the people in the history of our fifty states. In their extraordinary leaders, bounty of choices, they ve chosen a people who took up arms against their own country in an active, breeze and treason, indefensible of the incitement of other Americans towards the likelihood

success are wheels, will succeed. I mean there's no doubt that those stamps will be removed, is matter of its matter when, and I think the wine is coming sooner and again when you see minutes city taking the confederate flag of their food. When you see the military, moving to remain basis? These are now organisations, they are not If any worry that some of these quick actions that are easily done Adam in psychological, easily done because recent history behind them, but as a as a practical matter, it's not that difficult to remove a statue or take down a flag. It will cause people in maybe not to focus as resolutely as they might on more fundamental change, or do you think these things are just for the beginning of what can become a cycle of more fundamental change? Well, that's why I read the Baldwin's you that's why I told him,

history is because when it is a consciousness shift, freak accelerate, so much quicker, and we We see that we have the capacity with incredible breath of talent when we have to focus on many thanks. I'm one United States senator my dad, tease me mercilessly and save more degrees in the month of July, and I'm not hot but I do have some expertise in some areas, but I do not have expertise in all the areas which Congress has to legislate on and yet we're getting things done in a whole bunch of different areas. The great american public has expertise and lots of different please we can move a lot more quickly and focus on a lot of different things and so people say well we're getting caught up on these symbols of these hurtful harmful symbols. I hear the argument, but it's not as important as getting rid of all the lead service lines that go into children's homes,

you know our nation that still has over three thousand jurisdictions where children have more than twice the blood lead levels of the kids employed Michigan and is not more important in terms of racial justice, and, unlike will why can't we do both? We have the capacity to do at all. I'm not gonna just pick and choose my battles here. I'm gonna try to bring the moral awakening that will make all those battles- I seem almost like- The reality that why are they still stands They should dissolve before us as we go want to hire when simply safe home.

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most free when you sign up for interactive monitoring service. Just visit simply saved our com, slash priest to customize your system and start protecting your home and family today. Again that simply saved outcome, Slash preach, so so you're, something it's all tougher than I know you also care about deeply and those policing reform and deal with police brutality. You're a sponsor something called the justice and policing act. Talk about that for a minute. Why you think that the provisions in that bill are important and what the chances are there. So let me tell you the history so of this when, after George Voice death, I got on the phone with key allies of mine. Karen Bass, ahead of the congressional black hawk is commonly Harris was my first strong partner of mine, a lot of things and

with the congressional by clock? Yes, and eventually the head of the Judiciary Committee, incredible legislator, german Adler? We all want to work on writing a bill that we wanted to be as narrowly tailored as possible to deal with? What activists were? looking for work in the sense of saving black lives. What would save black lives what was it gonna be that could prevent the deaths of people like George Floyd and prevent the deaths of people like Brianna Taylor, and we pull together a lot of bills and I've been around boats in the house for years, some of them we wrote some of them have been around for, since I was in law school probably, and we put them together into a bill that deals with the basic idea of a mobility and that accountability are really means. Three things to have accountability. You have to have clear standards of what we're gonna do and what we need

and I do in this country like no no warrants for drug cases? I would say: Brianna Taylor, no chronic choke holes. Would have saved. Our gardener are one of the standards by which we are our believe in common standards in his country and by the way, those things are widely supported by the majority Republicans. Here too, we are building, says what we gotta exposed the data for them country to see so whether you activist or what you are a local legislator or were the feel you look you the data of policing, hobbling pedestrians doctrine doing that, our african american versus white, are you? What are you misconduct use of force all that data has to be made brought to sunshine. Are the ultimate disinfectant took millions of standard is the measures and the final thing is consequences when you fail to meet those standards and we were

they have real teeth of consequences. Will it, in other words being of a hold police accountable for misconduct and the federal courts both through the city courts and the criminal courts and to be able on forty with them or to investigate so giving the deal J the power for pattern. In practice, investigations and to empower local attorney general. Aids to do pattern and practice investigations as well, and we are the problem- is you can give powers to deal J apparent practice investigations, but they have to have the will to want to engage in them, and I know what the Senate? do about that? You can give people powers if they don't want to use, because you don't care so much. You ever thought about that I have a lot of thought about that, so so one it is, we have to me. With the powers, were there I want to make sure, even if in a bomb and ministries and they didn't have subpoena power, they got a lot more than in their proper funding, make the della more

So the question is: what do you do when you have a president will not only use pattern, pressing investigations, but this president, as in this area, to be civil rights, division of the department, education, protecting all gb teach you, kids, trans kids in particular black and brown. Kids from the disciplinary they're, not using all the powers of the EPA two whole polluters how will we have a massive fall off in collections from corporate polluters under this president? Dramatic fall? what I have to say to you now is it that you are right. There are gonna, be some president's. There will not use their powers to do that. They want in fact, totally useless departments. Often do the very opposite of us, like the EPA is doing the opposite of what was intended to do in many ways. By empowering corporate, Leaders and my point is that's: gonna- have to be the cost of a democracy. That you were going to have voting and voting has consequences and we are paying the dire consequences

now of having massive fall off in voter participation, two thousand and sixteen and two thousand and twelve, or even two thousand and eight, and that hopefully this is a generational lesson. I'm know I'm traumatized by this last four years in the sense of seeing the pain and the heart and the agony caused by this president and hopefully will make us to never have this mistake again were asking questions. Why should I vote it doesn't really matter lower seem at now? How should we think about the police as they are and as they should be Well, I I tell people all the time, a recent about two thousand six, I'm ahead of a police department, Avenue Mare and sit down with the head of the FBI and be FBI director I sit in New Jersey is giving me presentation about gang Intelligence in the region, and I ask him very purposely a question like this. I say why hello

solve this, and he looked at me like. I was asking sort of a cynical chicken- and he just said very honestly- we dont solve this. In other words, he knew that there weren't solving a problem. They were treating the symptoms of a problem that really has rude and societies, lack of interest investing in things that we know will work to ultimately end the necessity of Kim doing what he asked to do on gang interdiction and and oh that's the rub. We haven't America right now. We ve biggest mental health and bodily blacks are two point five times more likely to be killed by police and somebody. His white people's mental illness are ten to fifteen times more likely to be killed by the police than someone who's white. Allow and the police have no expertise in dealing with mental illness. Now. And so the question is: why do we as a society choose to deal with it? That way back? Let's just people who are homeless with a mental illness, yet In a study. What was more expensive

leaving them on the streets homeless or putting them in support of housing. Now, if anyone knows any about sport, housing its expensive, well, they found out for about twenty. Three people is the organisation there call Cliff housing group. Study for twenty three people? He said about him over a million dollars for taxpayers, because those people with mental illness is on the streets homeless and up in hospital emergency rooms, jails and having to in being eight by the police. And so we we know what to do. This country We have ways dealing with violent crime before it happens, Just expanding medicate has shown direct correlation with reducing cry, We know that there are interventions, evidence base interventions that do not involve police lower cry elevate. You dignity and human flourishing, actually are cheaper savers. Taxpayer dollars

But yet we are society then profess. Is to cherish freedom and liberty. Yet we incarcerate more. Any society is done in the last century or two. We are five send the globes population and were one out of every five or one out of every four incarcerate people on the planet. Her one in every three three women on the planet. Or here in the United States of America, because We don't want to invest in the things like a treatment for people with addiction. Health care help for people who are economically fragile and war and is the appalling truth, we are society. It believes in love from our most common fakes profess an ideal of loving thy neighbour from our very of founding documents, where our founding fathers ended, the declaration of independence an ideal of love. We must mutually pledge to each other or lives, are fortunes or secret honour when you

there are criminal justice system as a whole. There is no secret honour crimes, into our prisons in jails, the poor, the mentally ill, the addicted and the blackened brow on fishing rates and then doing to them in prison things at all constable like shackling pregnant women when they're giving birth I putting children in solitary confinement where we're psychologist concluded. That is a form of torture. And permanent brain damage. We are a nation that has horror Single one in our prisons, and it's done in our own name. When we say other people versus this is again in rubbed bra by the will virus exposing and Africa ask every warden imprisons I visit is our people here that don't belong Everyone has said to me: yes, and then you get a situation where Khalifa browser on one hand a child I'm going to go

Rikers Island, my first trip and encountering all these children who have been there for months and months and months with no trial cliff prouder was in Rikers, For over two years, for stealing a backpack for longer periods of time than they would ultimately be sends to exactly then came out, committed suicide. The majority of youth suicides in prisons or people ever immediately release for kids have been put in solitary confinement for long periods of time. That's the justice system on one hand in America, and then you get Roger Stone who was convicted, it doesnt, serve his sentence because he gets a presidential partners. Brian Stevenson says I dont think in this country When we have a criminal justice system that treat you better in too many places, if you're, rich and guilty than if your porn innocent were wealth, is determinative of outcomes that we should be killing people in that kind of

system, we criminal justice system, the treat you better if you're, rich and guilty, then, if your porn innocent, and especially, if you know the president and especially if you have committed a crime in service to the president, by the way, not only that this was just revealed a couple of hours, go, you mean owed, seeing it not only was his sentence commuted, but every aspect of his punishment was wiped away, including the fine that was levied, supervised release and everything else give any further comments on the the commutation of Roger Stone sentence. Well, it's so de legitimize you, you wonder when I walk my community and I talk to young people. And they do not see legitimacy in the criminal justice system, treats them so badly. So differentially as of where they live, because it color of their skin and yet others who do things that are obviously were found guilty of doing things,

train their country, doing things that were treasonous and yet they get it kind of system and get some kind treatment. That's the difficulty that I think it is hard to stop is that you talk about a European of trust have so many people in this country who just do not believe in the institution of justice and that justice is blind and the idea that we hail and we wave about people's faces, who just feel through all their experience, can see that that's a lie. You have said, I believe the bill bar sugar why's that I mean I mean where? Where do I began, but I dont does agree. I said the same thing, but I'm not a! U s senator, I am crushed by bill bar because I didn't vote for him, but I had but they are involved in June in private practice. That assured me, I got in writing. Their assure assurance is good. I would love to send it back to that. Then talked him kind of honour that he would brain and that

would hold down trying to account, but he is performing like Tom TOMS personal way. And you saw that from the very beginning with how he described them. The Mulder report, before he released the Mulder report. Operating as Donald Trump personal lawyer and not as the independent attorney general, whose loyalties seem are more my opinion more towards The president who has so implicated himself, as opposed to being boil to the american people, and I think, he's betrayed his oath when you think about the chairman of the committee and which is rather judiciary, Committee Lindsey Gram, saying that he wants to call Reverend Mother come testified before the Senate in the wake of mothers, are bad, didn't good idea is to support them now. I spoke out passionately wholeheartedly against it, and I just think that, We have a moment where the president is clearly crisis by him.

Making, and it's just like the Benghazi hearings did they had a noisy em in the House of Representatives. This is an attempt to distract this country, from the real ongoing issues and do the president's bidding the United States Senate to further of his conspiracy theories, and I have said this point blank that working on this right now, in the midst of a pandemic, with so many other urgent issues, pressing there's, no urgent, see in this and the weather, pursuing it right now given. All else is going, one that we should be working on. I was asked by mutual friend to ask this question which mean that make perfect sense to everyone. Are you a werewolf or a village, ha there. Is I hang out with a very geeky nerdy group of people and we fairly. We play the game werewolf and

I am telling you right now I am a villager. I am not a werewolf, they go to bed, in the game you cannot admit if you're a werewolf, you try to lie to your friends in the game to convince them because of your. What you're trying to kill people and you dont- want people to know you are causing they'll kill you so it's really game of convincing persuading people it's! You are benign, even if you are not so It is our hilarious game that I've spent way too many late night during the holidays is really we play and have I've laughed so hard times. I've cry willing. We learn something new last questions and I have to go in and see it's getting late. Even for me, do you have hope for the future and

and in one or two sentences why well, my definition of hope is maybe different than yours. I think that hope is the active conviction that despair will never have. The last word, I think real hope is bloodied is battered, is Bruce. I think real hope ass to be callous over and scarred because hope is daring and hope takes risks, and I think that hope is muscle it is fibre sinew at is tough, and so I will always be hopeful. I will always choose hope. Even if there's no reason two, because that very choice is the can ignite possibilities, and I will never let despair in this country have at last word and you're. Gonna say something it would make me feel better in our listeners feel better Centre Corey Book. Thank you for being on the show. Thank you for your service and thank you in advance for your future service. Its. It was really treat thank No, I'm grateful. You are truly somebody I respect and admire and love love listening to, and so was nice being, conversely,

next time. We need to have a more balanced, and I get ask you something should. I am happy to do that. I should warn you them. I'm aware, will ha ha your werewolf for justice, my friend for justice, wherever it whatever takes? Thank you undertake here be well for you too My conversation with Corey Booker continues for members of the cafe insider community insiders get you stay tuned content. The exclusive weekly podcast cause within Milgram the United Security package co, hosted by LISA Monaco and CAN Wednesday recordings of weekly notes. Ellie, Honig and me and more to get a two week. Trial for free had a cat. Dot com wash inside that's cat, dot, com, slash insider

play pokes before you wrap up for today. I want to take a moment to acknowledge a special group of listeners to join us every week for stay tuned in a cafe insider podcast icon. Friend and Milgram. During the time we ve been doing these pop cast, we literally had tens and of millions of downloads, so maybe there's from all over and you might think that their own United States- because we talk a lot about domestic policy Bushes, that resonate in Washington and around the United States of America, when I started stay tuned. I didn't anticipate our show resonating with so many people all over the world. You might be surprised to know that we have listeners in one hundred sixty three different countries who knew there that many countries in the world different time zones, different politics, different circumstances, and yet each week you join me here and we a cafe are grateful and not only to people around the world, listen they're, justice, curious and inquisitive. As the folks who tune in within the United States. We get tons of questions each week from our friends in the internet.

Community and peoples and questions from all over, like at stoppered from the UK, to road into ask about constitutionality or run beer from India, who rode into talk about patriotism. Many The international folks obviously are experts from United States, but many more or are not so want to thank you for emails in your nose and for continuing to ask great questions in case. You curious I'll, give you the top five listeners by country in fifth place. Germany, lotta listeners in Germany, fourth place Australia, third place. The United Kingdom second place. Canada and, of course, the top spot, the? U S and also believe it or not. We had at least listener in each of the following countries: Angola, Belarus, Libya, Macedonia needs year, Plough Somalia and will it and so from Botswana to Honduras, to Israel. In Haiti from India

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