Hey listeners. I wouldn't let you know about the report, which comes to me starting November fifteenth, the film based on the real life investigation of the CIA secret detention and interrogation programme, which was created in the aftermath of the September. Eleventh attacks were bringing special episode of state to next Tuesday, the twelve, where I speak with Pulitzer Prize winning Europe, journalists, Mark, MA's, Eddie and remember to go see the Amazon original motion picture, the report soaring Adam driver and that banning and John HAM in theatres November fifteenth Prime video November. Twenty ninth from CAFE welcome to stay tuned. I'm free Ferrara I make a lot of films about self deception and, as I like to point out, self deception affects everyone. Including me not immune Earl Morris, he's screw? Winning director and author known for his cinematic portrayals of controversial and complicated figures like former secretaries? thence Robert Mcnamara and the fog of WAR and Donald Rumsfeld in the unknown, known famous visit

Stephen Hawking and now former white, how strategies and executive chairman of Right Bart NEWS, Steve than in the film is key. American Dharuma Morrison, talk about how he chooses his subjects? The perils of I want my mommy politics. Why Trump is able to whether all sorts of scandals and we can be appalled by banning and like them and at the same time that's coming up stated. I remember Gabriel Patterson and I had a question to ask, creates when Gordon Farmland updated his testimony. Is that an admission that he was lying in his first testimony? I'd like to know if you think that the potential for forgery? Thank you very much for your time

Gabriel. Thanks for a question I receive referring to Gordon Silent, the American, about it or to the European Union, who came in and testify to a bunch of things, and then, though, and behold when other testimony came out, any presumably had a chance to look at that other testimony. Shockingly, his recollection was refreshed, and he came again to the Congress and he looked at his old testimony and has provided the multiple page addendum. So its national question does the new testimony with that contradicts the original testimony. Does that represent an admission of prayer? We well people more clever than that, and you will very rarely find a situation where somebody will admit to having lied previously. Only be an example of that in a moment that you'll remember it's a famous one, but in this case, what has done something something a lot of people do who testify and talked about in a number of times already is they will not say they lie, they will say they remembered something new and it's a much more difficult thing to prove that someone was not

the truth when they said they didn't recall something or that their recollection was refreshed, and so in this instance, he came back fairly quickly in a month. Didn't go by days and weeks, perhaps went by the month, and go by, and he on his own, presumably with being threatened with any sanction or criminal charge, whether even being noticed tat, he was being investigated for potentially lying to Congress. He of his own accord, Kay an amended his testimony to say, will now here, having conversations that make much more clear that something was offered for something in return in connection with the president and the White House and Ukraine there have been times when people charged, even though they have said they couldn't remember something when the facts and circumstances surrounding the fact make that impossible to believe. I guess you now some people use were respected the silent testimony as well as somebody rob a bank and in return the money later, is still a crime to rob the bank. I suppose that's true so far as it goes, but with these kinds of

his meaning perjury, or making false statements to Congress or to law enforcement. It is a rare case in which people find the interests of justice are served by prosecuting somebody who fairly quickly whether for good reasons or bad reasons comes forward, makes the whole truth plain immense testimony in kind of falls on their sword even without admitting lying. Now that said, the new testimony better, be ironclad, correct and true and right, because you don't get them and invited the apple. And what's an example of instance, where someone talk to Congress lied to Congress, admitted, the lie with a great example of out his microphone, the former Laura depressing that states who I only wanted to get some benefit for cooperating with the United States. Government admitted it is tat, money about various things to the Congress. Was false. And so, in a manner of speaking, that testimony was corrected, but that was in connection with a full on felony criminal case against him by my former offices have industry of New York.

That's how you often see that work. I pray. My name is John, I'm calling from the Bay area. California, thank you for your straight talking. Shall I love it and my question is: have you given any thought to what you think? Robert Mahler must be thinking about this whole impeach, an inquiry and the issues with Ukraine thanks a lot Joan that's an interesting question. What is by mother thinking about all of this? Well in other something's, the probably members of the special council team or scrapping their heads about one of which is part of the Ukraine scandal centres on this obsession. For the present and some of his allies that it was Ukraine that responsible for the hacking Dnc server and that the service will reside somewhere in Ukraine and all sorts of conspiracy theories that had been pushed by Paul metaphor in the past that are now coming to light in connection with it.

An inquiry, and that may cause some had scratching, as you might imagine, because the special Councils office, led by Robert Mahler, found pretty conclusively and definitively that it was the Russians were responsible for this conduct in fact charge a number of russian nationals for those offences. So I'm sure that's of interest to them But my shoulder answer is Bob Mother has done his time has done his service in a number of different ways, and so I wouldn't be surprised if, rather than following daily, the ins and outs of the impeachment in he's fishing somewhere question comes at an email from BT in Atlanta, where I'm going December forth to talk with Sally AIDS on stage certificates, capita com slashed, her ok and applause. Hi pre Trump seems to be using his released transcript of the perfect called Zalewski as a large part of his defence. Yet Lieutenant Colonel Vindelin confer in his testimony last week that there were key emissions and that release transcript, would it not be possible for

investigators to get the actual transcript of the call from the secure server on which its supposedly resides would seem a logical step in the investigation. Thanks sets a great question. My understanding is from the reporting and from other sources. Is that the only thing we have about the call? This July, twenty fifth call that the present keeps referring to his perfect and also beautiful between present Trump and presents Linsky of Ukraine is one this read out that has been provided and second other people's rights. Actions who listen to the call- and maybe one or more of them might have made their own notes, but that's it is my understanding that there is not actually a full recording voice. Recording of the phone call? Nor is there a full verbatim transcript of the phone call, and perhaps that's why present keeps relying on the transcript one aside, something in a sea of lies in the sea, and the statements of the present makes, for some reason, sticks in my cry.

It's so blatant trump. Keep saying that there is a verbatim transcript of his call was Zelensky verbatim. He says not just beautiful, not perfect, but set for This verbatim tranche transcript a little the front page of that read out. There's a disclaimer that says this is not a a transcript so so put aside for moment Are there any get other information about the call, that's neutral, in other words as objective as opposed to a people's recollection, and has been some disagreement. As you point out, Lieutenant Colonel women has a view that something's remitted from this transcript we ve seen his recollection appears to be that there is a specific reference to bereavement, which is the company on which Hunter Biden served on the board. Another witness testified recently to Morrison. Also. How staffer? Generally speaking, he said the reader was complete and correct, so be competing recollections about that. I want to help you but I think over time the weight of the evidence will fall on the side of the majority. The witnesses have a lot of witnesses say that there are things were excluded, then, hopefully that will be more persuasive to people who are considering the fact.

To remind us of it appears that the call lasted a substantial period of time, and the read out that we have seen so far indicates a call that lasted for a shorter period of time, which would suggest basin how these things are recorded for posterity. In writing. There are some omissions. Now whether those emissions are nefarious or not, people have their points of view, and I think that if it turns out that the weight of evidence supports the fact that Greece Emma was taken, I guess you could have a few, but the other people point out. If someone was really going to go to the trouble of being the Farias and scrubbing that read out, there's other things they would have scrubbed out too. Not just the identity of the company that Hunter Biden serve in the board of My guess this week is era Morris. You might ready ass his name from an impressive Rostov documentary films, unusually cinematic portraits of complicated and controversial figures, Morris's

films of people like former secretaries of Defence, Robert Mcnamara and Donald Rumsfeld. Recent work. American Dharuma profiles Give me one of the most influential figures of the twenty. Sixteen from campaign and administration, Steve, Bannon It was also on the boards of bright brought news in Cambridge Analytical or abandoned, is no longer physically in the White House is affecting the Trump administration and from campaign remains we about why Morris doesn't believe an adversarial interviews, whether figure abandoned should be de platform. The future arrest thinking and the most nefarious thing. The trouble administration has done to date. That's coming up statehood, no one likes to think they're home isn't safe. I mean it's a home, it's where you should feel safest and when you're away, for, if you is the last thing on your mind, should be your stuff back home, simply say,

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I'm a code Spotify to place your first bat risk free on Fan dual sports book down. Fend off today. Twenty one plus and present in Pennsylvania, first online, real money wager only refund issued as non withdrawal site credit that expires in fourteen days. Restrictions apply see terms at sports book out, fan dual dot com. Gambling problem call one eight hundred gambler. Just a quick heads off in this episode remorse gets really real in his discussion with me and there's, you know a bit profanity, just before warned That's the kind of thing that bothers you or, if you happen to be listening with your children Arrow Morris. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you the leisure pleasure for me. We ve never met before. So I'm glad we're getting this time together I never know exactly what I want to ask for some time. Do often I dont as we're way to meet the guest we have accomplished. Something popped into my head, or some will feed me a question. Right before we came on, you made a statement hurt me. Maybe that's. My first question, you said worse day of my life was the day

came literate only that's what I said and what did you mean by that Let's take it literally for God's sake, if someone told me that this was going to open the door to a lifetime of sorrow of, ending, incessant mediated reading. I could have just simply said: no thank you. Don't you get some joy for meeting to alight We do you probably long pause, but you still read red compulsively. So why could I like learning new stuff, the bad stuff you like learning about? Of course, doesn't everybody is your book that has brought you only join many of them? I have an office just filled, I don't know, maybe this seven or eight thousand volumes, and there are now two big office. So big, office like EU. Someone came in said. Have you read all of these and I said well, I M glad you asked

turns out. I haven't read any of them if he possessed I read an article years ago in the weekly world NEWS which I subscribe to. Had this claim that I was the only person who subscribe to the weekly World NEWS enter the London Review, a box which might be true can't prove it I'd like to see the Van diagram absolutely and those in the goal in the weekly world news. How looks smart if you're really stupid I used to have on my wall, for while I thought one of the items by eight thousand books, one of the items sea or not so far away, one was to have a lot of books. Carry around a big fat book with you also drink, lotta coffee wear glasses, we respect senior ran me with all of you. Obviously read the same are lying. I use all these same tricks because you know what I know so literacy. I assume you also are illiterate. Barely bitterly literate,

yeah I rely on other people telling me wasn't stuff a lot. Don't we don't? We all God, bless them, see where the most accomplished documentary film makers in America, really People have told me that I mean I've not read that, but people have told me people who does Actual primary reading have told me this and I've seen many of your films and I've seen your most recent one, which we will talk at some length is called American DARPA shifting to me because the time includes a word of indian origin dogma in its about, but also the subject of it. And I ask you it's about the subject of the film is Steve Bannon, whom some people credit with electing thou from president of the United States. Why the title and why him Why him is not a difficult question? He was all over the place. Fire and fury just come out. I had read the book, see the literature problem again, but that was not literature good red, ok, Joe green, had just published.

On banning Devils disciple. I read that two more problems because of literacy, and I thought I should in our view this car for someone to be a subject of yours, of a movie today to be consequential or interesting or both. Neither neither I like all kinds of worries and How- and why pick them- your guess is probably as good as mine to bid on whim is very much on whim, so steep ban in fits what criteria for you political guy, bad guy, possibly crazy Do respond to that because I too might possibly be crazy. Elijah know Jack. You you have set about. Steventon quote. I am appalled by banning, but I like him, yeah is at a paradox or not now think so. Am I appall via you betcha? Will you Paul by so many things as a laundry

give us a couple the claim I am a populist now I'm no expert on populism, but I just don't get that populist. Vibe gradual. Harvard Business School, employee of Goldman Sachs A lot of money from right wing billionaires, a man of the people may not so much so what the hell is going on here, giving you traffic some hate. Little simplistic is hate, certainly an element in all of this year. The I would say so How can you be a populist and endorse trumps tax plans? Something deeply hypocritical. Confused nasty you asked? Is it about hate in second armored, I call Trump the fuck you president

and why do I call on the fuck you, president, because he appeals to allow people who want to say you? Do everything if you wanted to say fuck you to your family, to your neighbors to the city which you live to your government, is the ideal vehicle. He's an ideology. Can we call it the fuck you? already just putting descriptor before ideology does an ideology. I don't think. Is it just an attitude? Nor is it just an expression of anger? I would say closer to overlap Yes, people are very very very angry. It's not hard figure out. Why? Because there's a lot of things for people to be angry about, I close if you wanted to be angry, which I am had income? and wealth inequality in America, and you think that

No one will ever do anything about it. It's a mixture of anger, futility, despair so I learn from Joshua Greens, booked abandons favorite movie was twelve o clock high, which I'd never see him, and you begin your filled with a scene from I most certainly do I watched twelve o clock high many times great movie, Gregory packs greatest formats amazing, better than to kill a mocking bird? That's biting words, but ok, though I dont want to get into a fight over. We won't we're very peace, loving her. So I want this film, which is a kind of NEA listing film about winning at all costs about maximum effort. Consider yourself, he tells US pilots already dead, you go out there. You Bob, the shit out of the enemy you go out to win.

But to save your skin not to have future you go they are to win at all costs that his favorite film. Also tells us weak one Harvard, The school they sit, em all down a watch, twelve o clock What does that say? we nothing good? if somebody ears ago, because now I think they have more of an ethics programme, her people now they watched the Mr Rogers movie. Maybe they watch fog of war. I wouldn't bet on it. So you have these views about Steve Bannon. He appalled you we started couple but about what he stands for or you hoping to get across to good by making the movie almost exclusively about him till I think in those terms, do I think what am I gonna get across? By doing this, I usually don't. Maybe that's my trouble. I ought to learn.

Who is this guy? What's going on here? What's going on inside of his head years ago, I used to think about internal and external stories. The most documentaries were extra. No, how could you actually get inside of somebody's head I didn't want to make films brand acts. Were you tell story about someone and then you get twenty different associates to common? Oh, I think he's a really nice person. No, I don't think he's so nice. I think he's a very bad person on and on and on and on so I thought I want to do that, so you have you been at one person to start off with I dont interview anybody Mcnamara one person Rumsfeld, one person ban in one person? Nobody else same for me era, Morris one person indeed, but this is a package

but if I ever did a movie would argue not out of the question. Are you worried about what kind of person you think I am sure we will have to find out? It might be Do you know what anymore thanks you or the kind of person who should do a movie about as Mcnamara abandoned murderers Hoss their pet people is our trend. There. You tend to make Stephen hawking? That's the exception approves the rule whatever that means I've, never ever by the way. I understood that expression why? he decided to cooperate with, you feel loves my movies. He was a fan. I don't want to call on my number one fan: Jesus he had seen all my movies. He had been it Premier of the fog of war at the Telluride film Festival. I checked out bottom. I asked my friend Tom Lady, who runs the Telluride film Festival to ban and by a team

that year was he really there was there in the audience when I was on stage with Mcnamara, and indeed did he was in fact you know what movie of yours Steve Van and likes this one. You ve made it a point to say quote I made an art film about a major figure who wants to destroy the world and he liked it. That was perhaps most problematic review- is that we feel one him not like it I don't know I wanted them to like it. Ok, I'll fess up so he's appalling is a fact that you made a movie that he likes. Does that say something about the film as I something about him, probably took says something about both than you can say that answer. How dare you Why? Why it's an just answer I mean I would like people to like movie, as I don't make movies so that people will dislike them. So the title, the movie again

American Dharuma. What's darpa to me, it's the d is duty destiny Dharuma. He makes a big stick. Each very early on in the movie that everything is ruled by the three days. Duty: destiny, Dharuma duty, destiny, Dharuma Duty desk he dogma is anything anything really indirect, for me, he's saying you can justify anything. This way we're all on some kind of wheel of history, some fatalistic vision of how things have to be the way they are because that's the way they are. Yes, all of this pop history, the four turnings I dont, like any other. What did Steve Bannon seeing Donald Trump, and why did he would

so hard to get him elected. He saw him as he describes in American Dharuma as and armor piercing shell. The blunt force instrument also a blunt forests instrument, also as if that's the platonic ideal for leader, if your aim I think this comes very close to the underlying themes of the movie. If your aim is to destroy everything, if you have secretly or not so secretly scorched earth policy, then that's your current. A guy untouched by morality, by Nationale really untouched by anything, except by some insane desire to promote himself. Not even an agenda but just to promote himself himself? Is the agenda does ban and

an agenda that has more substance to it than Trump, I don't think so. It's just destroy the status quo. Destroy the status quo in more burnt down. Take it out clear the decks, its anti populism. That's what bothers me! That's what makes me think you're crazy. Do you just want to destroy everything But do you think that's what Trump was really about? Was he just about yourself advancement of advancement of often said settings simple, go in life, which has been achieved many times over to be the most talked about human being on earth, which he is is anything beyond that? Don't move him well enough, but certainly looks that way, but ban and actually has a somewhat different agenda to accomplish. Person, who may be only once self Promotion, the goal of destruction,

with a match maiden haven't because they didn't last very long. Did it still going on here how so I believe a number of people, including the fake NEWS, New York Times, then, is once again advising Trump abandoned to be useful to Trump between twenty. Yes, I do how so we'll just asked the question about twenty. Sixteen was a useful to travel twenty sixty and do I buy the claim that he was the kingmaker that he was the person who principally secure the presidency for Donald Trump. I kind of do. I can even tell you why ok, also keeping in mind that this is perfect storm to me. Sixteen is crazy in election about sex, not about glass ceilings but about something far far more tawdry, I said, is to ban and at one point

it squares with my views about history? Isn't a set of strings being pulled faded deeds and results that history is chaotic, confused proceeds often by happenstance, and my question is always been what if western civilization is ultimately brought down destroyed if you like, by one man's insane people need to posed to the internet pictures of his penis. What if that is what ultimately brings us all down, Now this kind of fuse where's with yeah crazy out there. Run this one at that was done for Trump to create.

Easy, crazy, add powerful one powerful had linking wieners Dick picks with Hilary Females All of that I look at that add and I think to myself. Oh I get it. Terms. Gonna win. Do you think that I wish I could say

dear, but I didn't see that air, because I live in Massachusetts, I wouldn't see that add until I actually started to make the movie in retrospect, you had better sense of how trumpeted off I do. I think there is a whole mess of historical accidents that work to his advantage. Can a perfect storm be repeated and twenty twenty, maybe not that perfect storm, but something like it. Yes, I never thought he could win the first time around. I was afraid he could win. I tried so hard to do commercials for Hilary Benn want me. We just don't want you that offend you, oh sure, why not also the feeling of frustration have the stupid belief, self serving and stupid that? Actually, I can do interview

is better than the next guy. I try to do this for carry. I tried to do it for Hilary, then, if you could put them in front of a camera and get them to talk like a human being, instead of a political candidate, did it could endure to their benefit? Hey, that's the conceit in a nutshell, the dont from speak, like a human being, instead of a political candidate. I dont know how he speaks. He speaks in such a reared, confused way and was getting had banning them. It is a good thing not for the country, but for him. Yes, then one I'm announced disliked the trunk campaign so out of business. This is just trumpeting vengeance. I gained this mad bomber. Just my rig vengeance, all his enemies, bamberger, yes, as the exact jobs or we do. This we're gonna, be maniacal, focused, simplify everything may create the spoken in the guardian of a corrupt and incompetent status quo elite, and you may

trot the Asia change. The present Obama was that seen were ban and looks like the caddy swallowed. A canary orders or filing into this room. The Clinton accusers Raul, ready Pounce must take a step back because we must moments for Trump and twenty. Sixteen was when the access Hollywood tape comes out was real moment of peril for his campaign. Right instead banning speaks about it with you in the movie and its whatever you think of it and had turned out its compelling few minutes in the film twelve o clock High He does a survey it sort of like general savage talking to his pilots in the quantum hot, whose but beyond that plane, meaning who still women and who's gonna wobbly exactly and banning. Goes around the room. The up and what happens he fixed the people

they get on the plane or they don't get on the plane. Get interesting exchange with Chris Christie in the film. According to banning former going to Chris Christie says this is not about the campaign. Campaigns finished. This is about ruining your brand and bounces back to him. What he says plane leaves at eleven if you're on the plane you're on the team is not in the plane and ottoman Call the clock, I the planes. Twelve, do you think How else could have gone through that moment in Lhasa, pundits liked to say no could have survived. That, exceptionally, doesn't have any shame, doesn't have any remorse and just blunt force proceeds forward. It had started thinking about this talking to you, all the things I found two really trouble. About talking movies with bad him. We watch movies too, Either we talk about the movies. What is this scene would mean. There's a lot of movies. You have a lot of locations in European, yes, movies within movies within movies, very matter indeed, and we interpret them differently

sometimes radically differently. You'll be met, if you debated both was Russia Man and interpret that movie differently. I haven't say on Russia and Russia, of Russia I don't know my own theories, my own rational, unlike theories about, I should know deck knocked out. You do thank you, but it's like some kind of bad ass Rorschach practiced, where you to people the same thing and they come away with two different impressions It seems to me the essence of our time seriously in part. If you look back, could you make the argument that, even though the access Hollywood tape was temporarily bad, the campaign in some ways it has been an enormous strength for his presidency, because these allies, who could potentially go wobbly, have of memory of present from surviving that, which they know they could never survive, and you think how you get Has that nothing can fell the sky, and so when the Ukraine scandal occurs when Mahler starting

to getting those same people. What's going, the real in their heads and we'll in their head is back. I said this stuff about women and it didn't matter this stuff is nothing happened. That there is no kryptonite in this case right there's nothing can bring him down a feeling of insane invulnerability. But how destroys like that? Given how many books you read and well, I don't know the story- is going to end well, people endlessly asked me: why did my movie made people so angry people? Party hourly reviewers would say really really nasty stuff. I mean nasty stuff, hurtful stuff. People would say this movie would be seen as another word aside from DE platform in which is another one of my on favorite words. People started using the word,

click. My movie was toxic, whose poison he's gonna hurt people. This is promote. Adding an evil doer. Is it No tell me how you feel you Earl problem with the left? Now, enough. For me, there was a lady controversy connected to Steve Ban- and I had David Rennick the editor of the New Yorker on, if you can think of million, with the name gas, to remind people who don't listen every week Stephen was invited to the New Yorker Festival and the editor David Remnant was gonna interview on stage and there was a mini rebellion within the magazine and among people who, Leaders of the magazine and allowed people said they wouldn't show up to the festival and some other name said they wouldn't be interviewed on on the festival stage, and so then the New Yorker reverse its decision and descend Vited, Steve Bannon. Do you could take on it. Kay. I make a lot of films about self deception and, as I like to point out, self deception affects everyone. Including me

not immune the week before the film premiers at the Venice Phil festival and by the way I get a standing ovation at the Venice Film Festival, people applauds the entire credits the week before REM, Nick DIS invites Bannon, or if you like the terminology de platforms at him, he writes a piece about why he's done it, which I don't Think really is such a good piece of writing. I don't blame remnant for this, but I do think it was unfair. For me, and for my movie that it gave people permission that this is really what you should do. You said silence him. You should de platform him what's so interesting about this period in american history.

People are so particularly people on the left are so frightened and in such a state of despair and a feeling of impotence of feeling of powerlessness. If this happened, and it did happen, what I mean if I can't stop it, I call it a long time. I called- and I want my mommy politics, because in the wake of the twenty sixteen election it seemed the thing you could do is crawl under the bed and start saying over and over and over again I my mommy mommy mommy. Please make it stop mommy I don't like this mommy. This is fair bad it doesnt square with my idea of Amerika. What's the better approach and attitude in your view, engagement. I like thinking. Ok, reading is a vehicle to thinking and more thinking. I like thinking about stuff I make move.

Because I think they're investigative- it's not just simply too AMO Gate, a view that I hold in advance its defined. Something out that I don't know. I found a lot of stuff. I didn't know happy, I made the movie and I'm proud of the movie, and I don't like all of my movies, but I do like this. Why so one thing that our focus on what we think about Trump and abandoned and then see so much of this in the film was had is banned and think of the president's constant lying in distortion of the truth. They would say, and then this be another example of constant lying. He says, he's not lying he's, not a crow He says it in my movie or is it not Also you estimate the corruption has not come up. He's really say. Guy said Andrea,

Can I say something to him to the effect? Well, you know their corrupt real estate, guys to me I had a really nice guy. He can't possibly be corrupt. Zeke, Reverend joke he's a casino guy. That's what the hopeful people say. Look don't worry about trumped going to war because he is only interested in building. Casinos and hotels, and if you have a war in an area you can build a hotel where so one is suppose Do, I suppose, take some kind of comfort from that? He said something there, you my ears and was brought to my attention, knowing you showing up because it has a lot of residence today, but you said a twenty years ago and was exactly twenty years ago, if other something she had often use you know. I am fond of saying that human credulity is unfettered people, believe utterly anything, and that scary because can't reason with these people. You can present humans and a clear, logical, cogent fashion, examined them and come to a rational conclusion. It doesn't quite work that way. I think

Belief survives all challenges, that's kind of a duty of a statement in rings. True here that you of all people same DNA we do know is that my trunk, unelected elected for Harry remains in power. Is credulity is unfettered yes, how a rational he is to me. The irrationality itself is deeply worrisome. I think a lot of people don't even notice it. If that's true, that's not a good thing at the very end of fog, WAR Mcnamara's, as one of the most Bearing things I've ever heard, he says, rationality will not save us he was a man who devoted his life too, national thinking, or at least what he takes to be rational thinking, and he sees

it may have done him, no damn good, an interesting thing for him to say. I should stop citing this, but I like this, say so very, very much it's an essay written by Arthur Schopenhauer people dont know about it, but it is so very, very good, so deep and so dark it's cold. The art of being right so Schopenhauer in his first paragraph, kindly tells us two ways to win an argument, there's logic and his dial actor. Well? Everybody knows you can never win an argument to hijack. So, let's move quickly hundred dialectic and he proceeds to give you thirty. Six. These two women argument anyway, you can. And their really really fun I was gonna, do some God forsaken essay

open our and the modus operandi of the Trump administration for sample, Schopenhauer says. If someone has humiliated, you shown you to be a complete ass, your arguments to be totally specious. You put them in the eye, and you say I'm really glad come around in my way of thinking, right. We're flocked during this Islamic Open, you know the two lines I'll give you two lines about hope that I very much like one comes from a discussion between France Kafka and his close friend MAX broad and man? asked Franz fronds show you believe and hope, and Franz looks at him and says, of course, just not for us thanks for that. I appreciate that very much

now we have a drink. So what at one of the things about this movie about interviewing people who are not likeable event, some criticism for I guess you not attacking the guy and rather letting him speak and expose his thinking and letting people think for themselves would sometimes work, how do you think about it? If you haven't intimate a little bit because you're the one agreed interviewers of all time- and you know I've been to his only little while how'd you think about interviewing, and is it a different approach? I just wrote a piece for airmail, which I think is kind of good about interviewing its among other things, about I call the difficult question that you're supposed to in an interview away. I can partaken becoming that Guide not really. I actually enjoy talking to you. I'm sorry right! That's good! Keep at it.

Really believe an adversarial interviews. I dont think you learn very much. You create a kind of theatre, a glad, a tutorial theatre which may be satisfying to an audience. But if the goal is to learn something that you don't know, that's not the way to go about it In fact, it's the way to destroy the possibility of ever hearing anything interesting or new, so I I don't believe in them. People made the point with a spectacle trump that combative interviews don't necessarily yield that much. Although there is an argument that are supposed to do in real time, Checking and the times he's gotten in the most trouble is what he's been asked, somewhat softball questions, and he just reveals himself yes and talks and says:

On his mind, this guy down all of it- and this is my experience for better or for worse as an investigator as an interviewer at the most interesting, and excuse me for repeating something you just said the most interesting and most revealing comments have come not as the result of a question at all, but having set up a situation where people Finally, I want to talk to you and wonder reveal something to you. There was a moment in the thin blue line with Emily Miller that I, like the site where she volunteered the information. I knew that the line up, for Emily Miller was missing from the file. Why are there other line up sheets? Put there's no line up sheep here. I really think that much bout it, but I was aware of it and I'm talking to her and she tells me tat. She failed to pick out the defendant and police line up others, a woman who took the stand and said,

the man? That's the man who shot the cop, so she tells me she failed, come out in a police lineup, and I say I don't think I was even trying to be clever. I just think I was thinking. I said you fail to pick em out of the police lineup. How do you know she says I know I picked out the wrong man, because the police officer sitting next to me. You know this is like right out of Perry Mason. I know because the police officer sitting next to me tell me picked out the wrong man and then pointed out the right man. She was a moron by the way it out the right man. I wouldn't make that mistake again, great terrific. I don't even think I knew what I was hearing at first. I always liked and Jerry Louis movies. People would say horrible things to Jerry Louis, and he would just some smile and not had agreed in any

walk out of the room and start screaming ineffective copy mechanism of yesterday No, that found that you made very consequential in a particular way tat, someone exonerated. I got someone out of prison, I got his conviction overturned and you feel about that. That's one of the best days of my life is one of the better things that I have ever done and I feel lucky an immensely proud and I dont believe today in today's climate I would successful why you say that this is doubtless king. I mean this is a long discussion, but I'll make it a short discussion. We went up once before a federal judge. I had uncovered so many things. I was a private detective. Here is in Manhattan went down an interview. This Dallas psychiatry, doktor death. I said, thank God. I don't have to be a private detective any more wrong. I spent

two and a half years investigating this cop killing in Dallas federal judge, wouldn't overturn the case. So I went to a state judge, get this a black, muslim republican judge in Dallas how many of them as either, but I don't know, hi to do now might be unique and he listened to the stuff and you overturn the conviction and the prosecutors in Dallas said well we're just going to be trying to fuck her, and I knew that they would pick us. There was no longer any case, him among other things, although I don't think this is what really did it? Among other things, I got the real killer, essentially to admit his culpability for the crime. Have you thought about replicating?

and of work. Well, I think about it all the time. It's so hard, I'm not telling you anything, you don't know, but overturning it hard, but there have been other. There have been other things like your film, including a famous podcast. That casts doubt on convictions and may because people to re investigate notice, wonder assets, detention, other future project of yours. I wrote a book about the Jeffrey ME doll case. Call wilderness of error, taken from a line of EDGAR Allan POE. It's interesting to me, MRS a long discussion in and of itself, because every private detective every investigator, it's the wet dream that you can overturn a conviction tat. You can find the truth as a great believer in the truth tat you can actually, if you work hard enough long enough, look into enough closets and under enough beds that you can find the truth

and sometimes you can- and sometimes you can't and one of the odd things about looking for the truth, if you can't find it you can never know it can never be found. Something could turn up or documents could have been corrupted. Lost. Adulterated had happened, even the transcript a phone conversation when the President of the United States can under. Coalitions of one form or another, Tabitha hypothetically. Is it something else about interviewing that I wanted If you really believe you still believe you said what I think is undoubtedly true shut up and let people talk, then you said listen to what people were saying wasn't even important, but it was important. Look as if you were listening to what people are saying mention

actually listening to what people are saying to me, interferes with looking as if you were listening to what people are saying. So I have not listen to one thing you ve said good, but I hope I've given you. An event lipless really really. Do you really believe that another you'd listen, I'm prefers that too. But what can I say everything I'm always amazed and every interview I've ever done, listening to it after the fact editing with it. I really haven't heard it at all in one as it is a pleasure partially thinking about the next question. I think I'm thinking so hard and listening so hard I don't even here, what's being said at times, not always at times, because you in the process. I have that too, do any of you for an hour and then someone on the team will tell me about something from the interview and I don't recall you go even oil. Is it and you were probably listening intently right, Amandas forgetful. I don't think it's forgetful. I think it's odd when I first

doing interviews. I was interviewing murders in Wisconsin, Northern California, it's my favorite line in my wife when I first met her, I was talking- a mass murderer, but thinking of you and she didn't Vienna creepy, we ve been for a long time I ve known each other for close to fifty years. Maybe she d find it crew. Now I've seen what she says. She thought it was very romantic here, very awkward, She said it was really hard to date. Some one else after that, the nice thing to say it is. I love my wife. I would go into a room. Put my Sony cassette tape, recorder down that would be already running, so I would turn it on would be running, and then I would put the taper quartered down where the person I was speaking to my subject, what Her could see it. Clearly they could see there is the taper quarter. I wouldn't ask permission

We just make it clear that I was recording and then I would proceed and I had this game. This stupid game I played with by self? How long could I remained silent and keep someone talking, and I finally achieved a fool? or were my voice was not on the tape, and I was so so incredibly proud of myself like you it's some kind of special Olympics guess envying allow easier I come in and begged leave to some other work exactly, but the desire our talkative subject certainly helps and I would always trend drive these energies, I would sit and transcribe everything and I became transfixed by language. I how people talk, how they interrupt themselves,

how they create a narrative, etc, etc. I would transcribe everything myself I don't do that anymore. I feel like I've lost something for your purposes. When you ask questions, do you think about whether a short question versus along question, or a in question. Verse is an open question. Do you think about those things you just ass were pops into your head here I dont like having lists of questions. I always think an interview is going to be infirm. If there is a list of questions and the interviewer ex them off one by one. It tells me that you're not really engaged on some level mother, pretending to us Are you listening? I don't have a list of questions either, as you may have I have noted that has noted that they made the questions that I asked you I didn't ask and ask we share a common interest in a person who, in the annals of interrogation, is quite significant figure on sharp. I love Hon Sharp half a chapter of my

book is devoted to hunt sharp good Lord Solomon. To read your books, you know, never literally, this is the winner is improbable. Have now I have to go out and I have to read your book on disappoint. You didn't read in advance of this energy and greater tells me a lot about you. I mean I read it. I will go to the strand I'll get it tonight. This trend has has signed copies, so you'll get a signed copy. Ok into a mobile sharp was the most successful nazi interrogator abound Eric and airman to remind people. You think that the work is I talked about it. I've done what I did. I hope internally. Oh yes, Hon Sharp, I have talked about him, before in some people are loyal listeners on reminding them, and he did not use even and even those Nazi Germany. He did not use torture. He did not use intimidation. What did he do? It was nice to talk to people. He was interested in them and that worked yup is it always works and what happened to HANS Sheriff I and my child.

With this interesting historical Tibet, talent, Lord, I have to read this immediate tell us he emigrated to the United States and was welcomed into United. It will, of course, likeable Nazis and he went to work for Disney World and he became an expert on creation of elaborate stained glass windows for Disney Disneyworld So we should always remember that being an accomplished, Nazi can be a kind of prerequisite for employment, the Disney court, asian boy: no we're going out direction. You set it up, he became a accomplishments acorns and in fact it s going to work again as a result of this, and that was my goal of really all your luggage all along his strategy. Irrigation, is being taught as we speak in various places in this country. Who would have thought that it works and another amazing thing, probably its discussed in detail in your book, which I regrettably have

yet read, but will re it? Ok, he remained friends with those people in town. Long after the war, they called him. The gentlemen interrogator. I never got to interrogate anybody, maybe someday. I could interrogate you know. Maybe we can have is trying to be nice to like you, and I will put it in a kind of non threatening sympathetic way. You might agree, but you know something when I was a prosecutor and I worked with prosecutors and you would do questioning of people who were lying you one time early on. There were some one in the room who called break it was the interpreter and pull me out and started. Tell me you know that the guy's lying to you, I said yeah, I know he's lying two calling about it cuz. I want to see all the lies he's prepared to tell for a variety of reasons, and that's why I'm being nice, could you wanna, have people unfurl and see all the things you gonna say and then, when you go back to them at a lot more powerful, so we

long time, even very patient. I've enjoyed it aside, patients, no, I would that was our shows fishing for compliment, give advice for how people should cope with the next year of turmoil in american politics. Think we should all things very hard, but what kind of country want and the kind of deal sure they were now in and think of what we can do to help the country achieve a better outcome in this next election. Bring peril is a dark time for America. America is endanger one thing about the Trump administration. I think it's the most various thing about the Trump Administration is it makes you wonder it makes me wonder, was I always delusional about America and american values, everything that I thought or I hoped for? I believed him

Not that I had the slavish believe that everything was hunky Dory in Amerika. I did not, but I thought there was this idea idea of equality of fairness, opportunity that seems gone when the loss of that seems more terror, tell anything. Maybe in America can never be made right. I think I think terribly ironic. The progressives had become conservatives because they often think I wish things simply go back to the way they were. Rather than the way they are I dont know what happens next, but I do know that guy has to be defeated sooner rather than later, Congratulations on the film things are being on the show. Thank you for having beyond the show. I enjoyed good

The conversation continues for members of the cafe insider community to hear this bonus with Arrow Morris and get the exclusive weekly Cathay insider podcast gotTA, CAFE, Doc. Slash insider right now You can try a cafe insider membership free for two weeks, a cafe dot com, slash inside I wanna show today by making an incredibly obvious point, but it is of obvious point that needs to be made over and over and over again and over again, and then a few more times after that, and the obvious point is that elections matter and your vote counts just look at this week there was an election in Virginia there is an election in Kentucky. There's an election in pencil. Actually those elections all over the place with some

lasting results and, as we think about, threaten sixty three or through a sixty four days from now when there is an incredibly consequential election for the country, we will decide the fate of Donald Trump, but it'll be a second term of Donald Trump or the first term of someone else thing about what happened. Last year, starting with twenty eighteen, lots of people wondered whether that would be an election of consequence or not, and whatever and with the impeachment proceeding and whatever help If there is an impeachment and ultimately convey in the Senate. The only reason that we are hearing about the Ukraine call the only reason we're going testimony from people like Vinland and others is that there was a change in power the House of Representatives, because in November of twenty eighteen there was an election and the chairmanship of various committees changed, and one of those chairman is Adam shift another during Adler, and only because there is an election in a switch in power. Has oversight been available so, whether not you draw comfort to,

point of view from the new governor Elect it seems it was not quite fully decided yet, but it seems governor Elect Andy Bashir of Kentucky defeated. What everyone has said was a flawed candidate in mad bevin or whether you take comfort from the fact, depending on your point of view, both houses of the Virginia legislature have now flipped to the democratic side for the first time since ninety ninety three or any one of the other elections, where it seems as a groundswell of support for change critically. The suburbs take that to heart and remember that things only change if you vote- and you can't put all of your faith hope, either in a special council or in a chairman of some committee. Although there doing work. The most important thing you can do for your country for yourself through community. Whatever your point of view is, is to vote and encourage other people to vote as my this point for the day, cannot be making it again and again.

But that's it for this episode of statehood thanks and my guest Arrow Morris. If you like what we rate and review the show an apple pie casts or wherever you listen every party review, helps new listeners find the shop. Send me your quest That news, politics and justice tweet them to me a three. With the hashtag ask free or you call and leave me a message at six hundred and sixty nine, two hundred and forty seven, seven thousand three hundred and thirty, eight that's six thousand six hundred and ninety two for Pretreat send an email to stay tuned, a cat they don't come stay tuned, is presented by cafe the eggs producers tomorrow supper in a cafe team is dead tat ashore, Julia Doyle, Carl appearing David, colander, Calvin, Lord environments are music is by Andrew Dust. I'm preparers

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