Hey folks were entering a new phase of pandemic responses. Some dozen states begin to reopen six weeks after the country came to a standstill as protests and debate. Rage, overstayed home orders and listening other restrictions. We had some big news last week related to the FBI's investigation of former transnational Security adviser Michael Flynn were unsealed, raising new questions about the propriety and fairness of FBI practices. Dc Circuit Court of appeals. Her oral arguments in a key: involving a subpoena performer now the council done again who's been blocked from testified before the house. Traditionary committee was Michael Flint entrapped as its defenders. claim and what are the implications of them again. Litigation for the future of congressional oversight about all this and more with an milligram on the cafe insider podcast. Each weekly breakdown politically charged legal issues, making headlines today were sharing a clip from this week's episode. You can listen to her conversation and access all other The insider content with a free to ITER,

of the membership had to cafe dot com, slash insider to join, that's cafe, dot com, slash insider, and college students with a valid EU email can get especial rate a cafe. Come slash! Student hurry, you in April, happy Maya Happy Sink, go to my own happy. May the fourth be with you for the US to do. You know why my son squall its day deal there last year, it's it's a big deal. Last year, the annual school gala. This was before my son had even start kindergarten, and so are the parents went, and you know we thought like you know, you gotta go. Maybe it's like gonna be a little fancy. We walk in everyone is in genes in star wars, tee shirts or in costumes wasn. using that's pretty wonderful

Before we get to the news, I can make a public service and Esben yeah, of course, always so. The other park has that I do on which you ve been a guess. Many many times stated with pre these up for an award aware these people's voice. A word for word, politics and news podcast. We are currently an in second place, why both are lying in duration. Thank thank. I know that denomination. You know that you'd like to be in first place. I now I'm just a happy dynamic, as they say exactly what I'm just happy to be nominated? I feel that way create it's. It's amazing com my congratulations to you and the whole team, a cafe soaks or do I have a request of our listeners, and that is when you have a moment, go to vote dot. Webby awards, dot com. You can find their voting page by just hoping in, or stay tuned in the search bar. That trails, will you send me? I am one of those stickers that says I voted

How can I read about it? I'm with you vote dont worry awards, dot com and its good practice for remote voting rights. Congratulations again! Wonderful! Thank you! So too big he's going on. Michael Flynn form a national security adviser to present Trump briefly is back in the news why's that yes he's back. There have been a number of documents that have been released and we'll talk a little bit about how they came out, but their internal FBI documents that relate to this discussion. They had about how to approach Michael flan when they were first going to interview him, and so this his brow

it back for his lawyer to basically say: oh, no, my girlfriend was entrapped. The government is terrible. The FBI's terrible and the present of course said the same thing. We want the ability to withdraw our plea. We want the case dismissed, and so all of this has happened. Those documents were released last week, and so it's really brought the Flynn conversation back to the beginning of Flint wants out of his plea deal. So this cases pending for very long time. The conduct in question for which he was charged goes back to the first week of the travel industry, and an interview he gave to the FBI on January. Twenty fourth of two thousand seventeen, our more than three years on, and we still have to spend in case it's worth, maybe reminding folks, and we had to remind ourselves of some of the underlying facts the case right, so you will recall that Michael Flynn used to be in the military and left under broccoli

Emma and then became very outspoken spokesperson, an campaigner for Donald Trump. I went to some rallies, notably presided over a chant of locker up in reference to the democratic nominee. Hillary Clinton, do not need a reckless president who believes she. Is above, the law might occur, as right. Yeah, that's right, Walker. I think there are reports that various people, including Chris Christine, suggested that he not be appointed to a high position, in the trunk administration, and yet he was and what the charges around just remind folks are essentially three sets of lies that he told to an FBI agent on January, twenty. Fourth, twenty seventeen

it gives them context to this during the transition period, when Brok of almost all the president of the United States, there was an active investigation of various issues relating to Russia and with respect to the russian interference in the election. The Obama administration at some point in December of twenty sixteen imposed signal and sanctions on Russia now in almost every circumstance, when the United States Those sanctions on a country like Russia there is, most immediate retaliation. That's happened before that's the reason why, and from going to Russia, was retaliation for sanctions that we put on various Russians, did the same to various America including me in some other people from the Austrian. Why, in the judge in a particular case, it turns out that Michael Flat, among other things, had a direct conversation

with the russian ambassador to the Eu S rugged kissed lack in which he told kiss lack not to retaliate against the United States and some other things. He also told Russia, apparently, during that time period to vote against a particular you and resolution relating to Israel. So that's the backdrop then fast forward to January twenty. Fourth of twenty seven, ten, just tat just entrapped for a second, so folks can remember, that the american intelligence agencies were up on the phones of the russian ambassador, who is believed to have also been and intelligence asset for the russian government. Sergei kisser and so they had access to that for those phone calls every time that Michael Flint called those calls were being overheard by American. Intelligent, officers- and this will come into play later- there's also evidence that was coming into the possession of the intelligence authorities and one for some authorities, Michael Flynn was doing substantial work at the behest of the government of Turkey, including

not bad about various things, something that the files refer to as a turkey project and so you have this interesting scenario with someone who's about to become the National Security advisor to the President of the United States, Canada, behind people's back tax and in a way to undermining to the still in place administration having private Conversations with the russian ambassador about what should or should not happen kind of conducting its own foreign policy just an old american law which you and I talked about when when this was all unfolding in Flint, was being charged and pleading guilty. There's something called Logan ACT which prohibits any one from acting on behalf of the? U S: government, that's not the US government, and so at this point in time. In December, twenty sixteen Barack Obama was President President Trump had not been sworn in yet to office. That was later in January. So there is some question and that has not been charged for decades. I think over fifty years it's not infrequently you statute, but just so people understand on its feet, this is specifically prohibited by law. You can't be the

incoming administration and undercut the current administration, you can't up to governments at once and it's not it's not the way. We right and so is the significant government issue that flame was making those calls and basically sort of back dealing with the Russians so then transferred to genuine twenty fourth M will get into what some of the discussions were. That reflects in these notes about whether not Michael Flint should be approached whether or not you should be warned that lying is a crime, whether not he should have been allowed to have a lawyer and all of that, because that's part of what the current controversies about, but just to put this in. In some perspective, you have you have an FBI agent and what makes it more complicated is the appeal here is someone Peter struck who, as we all know later, was engaging in inappropriate and unfortunate text messages about his feelings about Donald Trump, with an FBI lawyer, namely a page, was one of the People which also complicates this. At least optically was one of the lawyers who is providing. his on what the warning should be to Michael Flanton. What

each of the interview should be etc, etc. So it's kind of a complicated little web. But the basics are that Michael. Flynn, even though, he's a sophisticated person, even though he had served in the defence intelligence Agency, even though he has a lot of experience in intelligence, collection and law enforcement, presumably, and even though he had to have assumed, as you pointed out that his conversations with Kisyak might have been intercepted I'd be known to intelligence, community officials and FBI officials when given the opportunity speak about whether or not he said these things to Kisyak chose to lie about it and just lie about whether or not he told Russians too, against the. U N resolution and we're gonna come to this again and again, but I think it's important to say at the outset, because it is ultimately dispositive of all this controversy. He basically had three choice. when he's interviewed by the fbi- and we can have a discussion about whether or not it was heavy handed or what

He was admonish properly in all sorts of other things, but the bottom line is you have a sophisticated person who understands how life works, whose asked direct and specific, concrete questions about his conversations with Russians. He had three choices, tell the truth, lie or shut up, and he chose to lie and by the way, nothing in all this documentation, controversy, and motion practice that I've seen and maybe I missed it- does in any way make the case that his statements to the FBI agent were, in fact, true it's all this other sort of argument about fair treatment of being set up and their not being a proper case to begin with, which may or may not be arguable, but he does not dispute the hit. Stuff was not true right and also just remember that he publicly apologise as well, and he also stood in court and basically set in front of a judge. Yes, I lied when he put guilty, and so it's really important understand he's not walking back that he lied to the FBI

He raised his right hand swore under oath that he had lied and he then also went out publicly apologized and said you know what wrong and I'm sorry and I'm working to make amends, and so all of that is the backdrop of he's, never denied the actual crime, his arguing that he was tricked by the FBI that he was entrapped set that conduct towards him basically compelled him to tell that. I a couple other facts to remember. He was eventually fired by Dal trump and what was the basis for his being fired. you're, not only the delight of the FBI. He lied to the vice president, Michael Pence, about as and when I Sunday talk shows Ray, and this is a most recent based on yeah, I was told by Michael Flynn. I was disappointed to learn the this the The facts that have been conveyed to me by General Flynn were inaccurate. So trump administration itself understood that he lied and fired him.

Those lies. Yes- and you know at this point, the washing posts was writing news. Articles about at Flynn spoke depends as short pen set. It hadn't happen that he hadn't had these conversations and then pence went out based on funds, representations and told the american public. This never happened, and so it's really important to remember that that that's how this all went out So, what's happened since that January, twenty fourth interview and his firing by the President of the United States, he was charged, as we mentioned, with multiple counts of making false statements he play guilty in open court, which means that he voluntarily admitted the fact he put out his statement of apology, essentially in fact he had turned lawyers. Sophisticated lawyers are coming to unbundling representing him

There was a sentencing scheduling more than once, there's been a sensing scheduled and at one point the government was saying that probation would be appropriate because of his long service and because of his cooperation with the government that at some point later, oddly, when the sensing was adjourned and then rescheduled, the government took the position that some prison sentence of up to see months would be appropriate and then, for recently, after billboard, maybe got involved. The government changed sentencing recommendation again back to probations. You have these twists and turns changed. Lawyers he's got a new lawyer whose arguing that the first lawyers didn't do a good when they have a conflict of interest, and so there's been a lot of fighting as opposed to how Michaelson dealt with a case in the beginning, with some contrition and an apology and a guilty plea, and so now there have been some documents that have been disclosed and we can maybe describe how that happened, that floods, new lawyers argue show he was entrapped. He was

up. There was exculpatory material not provided that they want to use to show that he is innocent, that the government acted out. Rageous Lee and that he should be able to withdraw his guilty plea and in fact, have his case dismissed. So how do we? How do we get to this point? What is happening? is beyond unusual in my view, and so just put this all against the backdrop of the present United States. Donald Trump has been arguing for executive privilege for the past three years right. Every time someone wants piece of information from here his administration. He will argue its executive privilege basin. saying I'm the chief executive. I need to be able to have conversations behind closed doors that are private and I have to be able to debate. Things yes or no, and nobody should get access to that now flip to what Bill bar has basically died. Is he has released and we'll talk about? The mechanics of this, but he has released,

The contents of notes and emails of internal FBI conversations about how to approach the Flint investigation This is incredibly unusual. In my experience like I was I do think of another time that I'd seen something like this happen. It just doesn't happen. And again. I really want to stress that this is like intentional framing. I think, by the present and by bar to basically be able to set. Have to be pardoned by the president or for the case to be dismissed by Bill BAR Bill BAR to say we're not going to go forward to what Bill Barr. as is he does this thing, and you mentioned the Connecticut? U S Only recently John Durham was appointed to look at the Russia Investigation and Carter pages. The initial phase, a word of Carter, page what borrowed! It is something similar here on plans case. He asked a sitting: U S attorney, to look into the Flint matter. And as a result of that that sitting you US attorney basically pulled these internal FBI documents there

not documents that would normally be disclosed. In my experience, because again they go to process, and deliberation. They don't go there, not records of a witness statement there don't fall under the criminal proceeds, rules of what has to be disclosed during the prosecution of a case, so they really are bout, giving an internal on Fourchan. can see the ability to have this argument. This conversation of you know, should we give Flynn Should we tell him that if he lies at the crime, do we need to legally tell him and what's important will get to the sub of those arguments in a minute. But what is really really important for people to understand is that bar appointed turning the? U S attorney then, gets access to these documents and he gives them to the defence lawyer Sidney pals that power can now walk in and say my client was entrapped. This was set up by the government. I don't think there's anything about that argue That's true and, as you said, a front plan had three choices: then he chose to lie and we can again break that down.

I think it's really important for people to understand the framing that we are here, because Bill BAR has released. Colonel documents that, in my experience, are not released in law enforcement investigations and here That is, in my view, intentionally to undercut the flint prosecution and again just back to executive privilege like the exact argument, the president's making that he needs and you and I there are exceptions to executive privilege. Of course, there are exceptions to you know when internal documents should be turned over. I just want to point out Parker see that the same administration. That is basically said no one gets to see. Anything from us is the same administration that is pushing out documents that are never ever disclosed in cases. they go directly to the heart of the exact kind of debate that the F b I should be having when their approaching oh, In our view there trying to figure out. How should we do it? What's the best way to do it, what's the fairest way, what's legal? What's not so

the things that are released include a batch of documents, some type, some handwritten others a back and forth. I think that you refer to between LISA, page and agents of the FBI. The rule requiring warning the witness, in this case Michael Flynn, that lying to an appeal, Agent is a crime by the way everyone in America now probably knows that, from the cases that have flowed from the rush investigation was a statue title eighteen it's called one thousand one that everybody now, I think, is familiar with so the back and forth about whether now you're supposed to warn somebody about lying to the FBI, in a material way and then there's this note. That's got in a lot of attention I think they're, whose handwriting it is people I think, reasonably speculate. That's bill, priest out who is the head of cattle intelligence at the FBI at the time who writes? What's our goal, referring to the approach it an interview, the witness truth, slash admission or to get him to lie, so we can prosecute him or get him fired, and

those notes that notation standing alone has caused a lot of people too claim this is a set up. This is an appropriate. I saw Kelly MAC and any from the podium in the briefing room at the White House. Basically say there is an unfair target. on the back of General Michael Flan Onyx. You concern every American any time. There's a partisan pursue of an individual and that certainly at least those questions are raised with regard to general Flynn. An honourable man who served his country is a crazy thing to be thinking about and prior to the interview of a witness who, you believe is engaged in misconduct. One of the things I think that is worth spending a lot of time on is that we both been in these rooms, where you have very

serious conversations about. Where is the investigation going? How do you approach a witness and what's the best way to do it and it's worth reminding ourselves and everyone up front, that there are few like rules of prosecution and investigation, including you no idea it's better to talk to somebody when they don't have a lawyer present right, and this happens all the time of police officers and lawyers and, if someone's, actually in custody. That means that there are not free to leave that you have to give them Miranda. Warnings which, as you the right to remain silent, but if they are not in custody, you don't hear Flynn was not in custody and just remind everyone endemic cable, Then the acting director, the FBI on January, twenty fourth of twenty seventeen cape cause. Flan basically says: hey, we're gonna, ask you some questions, we're gonna, have some agents follow up and come over and says yeah. Ok right, I think there kind of repulsion was another more because I think that better so He wasn't given questions in advance, but he also ones

eyes at his office. In the moment he was called by basically the second highest person. At the F B, I told the agents we're gonna come over an interview, so he had to have some understood, given that he knew what he has had to give way