Hey folks, Joyce, fancier praetors on vacation this week, so today, I'm joined by a special guest co host down Goldman Dan, as many listeners may know, served his House Majority Council during the first impeachment Donald Trump. He also served under previous an assistant. U S attorney in the southern district, New York and as usual, we have plenty of news to discuss. Reports indicate that Manhattan DE surveillance is closed. Bringing criminal charges against the Trump Organization, be even as soon as this week. Meanwhile, Rudy Giuliani is back in the news. A New York appellate courts. ended. His law licence for lying about election fraud on behalf of Trump and Minnesota, Judge sentence, Derek Jovan to twenty two and a half years in prison for murder, George Floyd, then old men, and I discuss all this and more on the cafe insider podcast

today was sharing a clip from the episode with listeners of stay tuned, to hear our full conversation and access all other cafe. Insider content. Try the membership free for two weeks. You can do that at Cathay, DOT, com, slush insider, that's, calf, dot, com slush insider and for a limited time used the code Joyce for fifty percent off the end we'll membership price, we look for to having you as a part of the inside our community. We have a lot of listener. Questions about reporting that people from Trump Organization and and Trump's own lawyers were meeting with prosecutors in a last ditch effort to keep the the organization from being indicted.

and many people were concerned that smacked of favouritism. But you know, in my experience and especially in a white collar case, you often meet with the defendants lawyers right when you're in the run up to indicting for one thing in criminal cases, unlike in civil cases, there's not this robust discovery where the defendant is required to turn over all sorts of information to prosecutors, and so often as a prosecutor. Your best glimpse into the defence. The defendant is going to mount comes at this last stage, where they're trying to convince you not to indict them and its also just a good reality check to make sure that you haven't missed anything in the oven that you're not making a mistake, and that your indictment really is is good to proceed. So I think that these sorts of meetings are or normal that there's no sort of favouritism being done here. Do you make anything of that? I don't make anything of the meeting. That is

standard, routine, usual practice when you are considering indicting accompany you want them to be able to make their case. Not just against the charges themselves, but one of the considerations are the collateral consequences against the company. So you have to go, the company, an opportunity to be heard and to say, if you invite me, this is gonna happen gonna mean we thousand and people lose their jobs. So we would like to avoid indictment. The other thing that that meeting does is it usual? Lee initiate settlement discussions, and it may be a situation where they wanted to notify that we are preparing to indict. You can make a case why shouldn't be indicted Maybe you want to settle this in some fat, in short of an indictment, perhaps because want to save the company. And so that a standard operating practice in any case, that's consent,

bring charging a corporation the thing to consider- and this is, I think, really important here and I do think it's important for the men Andy's office, in particular, in conjunction with the New York attorney general, Tis James, who I personally think when a little awry when she campaigned about taking on Donald Trump and trying to investigate him, I think you really need to play this by the book and by the book means should be precedent for doing what you're doing in other cases and why, The considerations has to be about indicting. A corporation is whether this is pervasive and persistent conduct whether this is not just a one off thing, but whether this has been going on four years and effectively the whole corporation is corrupt. So my hope is that if they come

he is indicted, there's a lot more than were hearing. We will have to wait and see, but I really do hope that this is by the book and that there is more to it than these. These fringe benefits I really agree with you hear anything that smack says targeting trump, particularly in light of the comments that Tis James made when she was campaigning is gonna, be problematic. You- and I have talked on numerous occasions about how important it is for prosecutors, took to maintain their credibility so that the public can have confidence in how the criminal justice system works. Otherwise, it really does give some power to inevitably trumps arguments that this is just a witch hunt, even though it wouldn't be, even though it would be a technically proper indictment based on on. You know, those

of allegations of of tax failures. Prosecutors really need to go above and beyond here to maintain their their credibility. Malawi, that I would, I would jump in their because for those who are very concerned about what the four years under Donald Trump did to the rule of law, You cannot now turn around and use Some of those same improper tactics erosion of the rule of law against him and feel ok about it. In order to store the rule of law. We need to uphold it and maintain it, even if its politically inconvenient for some There is a strong tendency to want to get him by a lot of people, and I understand that, but we cannot stoop to the level that he did in order to get him for political reasons. This feels like a very important point.

to me, because I know there are so many people who, from a place of emotion, understandable, emotion, I've been there myself want to see there be some accountability for all of Donald prompts misconduct but the reality, is its life. When you're playing a card game, you can't be so focused on winning one hand and the card game that you're willing to break all of the rules and blow up the whole, right. We are a rule of law country, and that means that we are committed to a lot of principles, including due process of law. We don't just lock people up because we don't like them or because we think that they ve done something wrong, and we have this very high burden in our criminal justice system of proof beyond reasonable my inclination. My belief is that this is likely it and that, based on report,

that Alan Weissenburg attorneys have also been talking to the DA's office that he knows what he is gonna be charged with. If any, and he has made the decision that he's got owing to other fight the charges or just plead guilty. But that is not going to cooperate and I think that's why they ve gone to consider charges, the corporation. There's really no incentive. Charging the corporation to get any one to cooperate. The incentive would be to avoid jail time that's obviously not going to happen with the corporation appeals to me like indicting. The corporation is kind of the last step that you would take in Destination you focus on individuals as much as you can, you see where it can go, but then, if it in the end you you can't get any further and of individuals and by the way there may be more individuals, the now and weissenburg down the line, maybe his, There are rumours that he may be charged

is well, he also worked there, but feels to me like this. Is it whatever happens this week. Is it unless Alamo Who decides to cooperate, which I I don't think he will or something like that? What do you think you know Alan Weissenburg feels like one of those defendants who has a choice to make right as prosecutors in my office used to like to say he can either be on the bus or he can be under it. He can either cooperate with the process asian or he can run the risk of trial and being convicted? And it looks to me, like he's, made a decision that he can do whatever time he might Gaddafi's convicted two years three years. Maybe he thinks that he can be? the charges against him in and do no time at all and look sign dances who has been in this game for a long time knows how to bring pressure on on a witness that,

probably why there has been investigation into Weissenburg son. Most people want let one of their kids go to prison when push comes to shove and will make the decision to cooperate, but Weissenburg has worked four trump for a long time. He's got a high tolerance to risk and unless prosecutors, and an alternative path in the trumps mind, maybe if Michael Cohen has something, but they ve been talking to him for a long time, that's all been pretty public. It feels to me like this I will say, the special grand jury remains in session through the end of the year, so certainly there's that possibility of additional activity, but this has a little bit of a sense of the now anti till it yeah and Eurasia good point that with family members, that's oftener a strong incentive to cooperate, but I sort of two responses to to what you just said. The first is related to Michael Cohen, who I spent a fair amount of time with, when I was with the house. Until

in committee, in a meeting with him and then deposing him, Michael Cohen, is not enough to get to Donald Trump. He was not numbers guy. He has some information, that's very public about the insurance applications in the evaluation. The different valuation of the same property, whether it was to insurance companies or tax authorities in leading the value to insurance companies, so the insurance you get is more but Michael calendar. now the details, and he is simply not enough to get to downtrodden that putting aside some of the credit It concerns and some of the concerns you have for him being your STAR Witness given how much she's been out there and public, that's never a good thing for a witness but The thing I would just add- and- and I think this is very important to think about in white collar cases- the New York State

law, which the Manhattan DA's office implements has broadly speaking very light penalties, particularly, in comparison to federal law and so one the considerations. I'm sure that is going through Ellen Weisgerber. Tat is charges that may be coming against him are gonna? very, very light penalties. It's entirely possible choice that he could plead guilty and get a sentence of less than a year based This conduct and so that is not a good incentive. The New York version of Riga racketeering, which I think the Trump Organization and Donald Trump would be right for on a federal level, the York love much more restrictive and its much harder to prove of regos charge under New York law.

So save answers somewhat handcuffed here by the laws that he has to work with, which he, of course he does not have a choice about well last question: down since you raise it, your old office, the southern district of New York once identified Donald Trump, as individual number one in a prosecution where Michael Cohen was convicted as you say, federal law on Rico is: has much more broader provisions. The New York's little Rico statute has and frankly federal law when it comes to criminal assets forfeiture taking assets away from someone who's engaged in. May conduct is much broader than New York's very limited. Rarely used sort of asset for future provisions for this sort of situation. Do you think that will see the southern district of New York get into this whole mess? I think that investigation is over. I don't quite know why I think in some respects it's too bad,

I certainly believe, as a former prosecutor, that there was enough evidence to charge, Donald Trump for the hush money payments for campaign finance fraud. Do you not only had Michael Cohen, you, David Packer, the head of the national inquire, the parent company, who apparently cooperated with the sudden. District. Who could testify that he was asked to pay Macdougall the money to catch. kill her story, and then you have that record that I mentioned earlier between Michael Conan, Donald Trump, which is really powerful evidence. And then you have the cover up with It is also excellent evidence. So to me, if, we're gonna charge a campaign, finance violation, camp election fraud charge based on campaign financed fraud that have been the case, but they closed that investigation and I dont know why I'll be curious, whether Bill BAR and the higher up Zedillo J had anything to do with that. I had heard rumors

Bill bar did not like the theory of that case, even putting aside politics and then the problem. I think that the southern district tat is. There was reporting that Alan wiser, but they brought Alan Weissenburg into the grand jury. Now that creates too complicated for for us right now, but that creates a lot of problems to profit. Someone who has already testified in the grand jury, because you can't use that information against them in some way You can use that information against it, but that creep. It's a lot of problems so I dont know why the southern district walked away from it, but they did- and I do not expect there to be any federal charges- for the Trump Organizational eight conduct related to that, there are investigations that may involve federal charges against all trumpet not for this conduct. I ray with you that there are so many unanswered questions there and in part were now.

Bumping up against the statute of limitations right typically for most federal crimes. The statute of limitations is five years. Of course, if there is a conspiracy, that statute runs from the last act of the conspiracy if there is an ongoing cover up. You might get a couple of extra years on that statutory period, but I think this is one of those mysteries of the Trump era that will have to be untangled down the road. I look forward to your book down. well, my book will definitely include our next topic. Joy, very Giuliani who has complete disgraced himself and the former office. Where I worked where many decades ago, he was the? U S, turning big news last week is that This law licence was temporarily suspended on an interim emergency basis, because

the lies that he told to just about everybody and every tribunal who would listen to him related to the big lie and in the last fall and winter where he was preaching all of these thanks for listening to hear the full episode had the cafe calm slush insider and try out the membership free for two weeks and for a limb It's time you use the code Joyce for fifty percent of the annual membership price. That's cafe dot com, slash insider to the many of you who have chosen to join the insider community. Thank you for supporting our work.