I am you ever tell editor of the virgin host of the decoder podcast, the virgin. Turning ten. This here, that's incredible impossible, but celebrate were throwing a huge to day events in New York City on a timber twenty second and twenty third and you're invited it's the virgin. You ve never seen it before with a huge lineup, especial guests, interactive experiences in a major opening party, so go to vocs media event. Stockholm, slash o tv tickets to learn more and rather tickets will see on the votes from CAFE. Welcome to stay too I am preparing trumps entire planned for real action is about de legitimize, Ing voting, abjectly voting by now frightening people and bring that that has a suppress of effect on the electorate because I think he thinks that if everyone who wants to move to lose his back and saw it,

cynical game is buying, but I think that's the game that Mark Elias, as perhaps the top electronically for Democrats for nearly two decades he's oversee, we can't fights for United States senators and served as campaign general. Also for both John Kerry and Hillary Clinton. Now mark playing a key role in the Biden campaigns, legal work, it's his job to make sure that every vote is counted the Republicans, don't get away with any mischief mark joint. today to answer all your questions around voting. For me, balance to the so called red mirage- and we took but the various ways of President Trump could try to undermine the election results and how to make or that doesn't happen. That's coming up state to let's get to your questions. This question comes in a tweet from Twitter user, Dana Feelin. If percentages

your committee doesn't have the votes in person to pass or out of committee. How can they rush this hashtag aspirate? I suppose hurry referring to the nominated a Supreme Court, Amy Coney Barrett Will. First of all, it seems at this point that they will have the votes. There are two republican sent, as for the Judiciary Committee time, tell us unlikely who have contracted corona virus and are at this, I'm in quarantining, but at least likely, if up boldly until us have said they are coming back for the hearings which begin on Monday October twelve. So if that happens, and they are present, they will have all the votes they need in person. Twelve Republicans attend Democrats on the Senate, Judiciary Committee and even then able to come back there then, judiciary, committee, meetings and hearings that Kurt over the last few months during the pandemic remotely were either furthermore senators appears remotely or- even the nominee appears remotely, and in that case, whether not Tom Phyllis unlikely have finished their quarantine. They will be able to. spit in the hearings and, most importantly, the vote in the committee wouldn't for several more days by which time before

These will have elapsed and in any event this is not allowed on the floor. The Senate, proxy, is allowed in the committee, so Tom tell us unlikely, kinda system. Give their votes to Lindsey Graham and accomplish what will likely be a twelve to ten ultimate vote for any country where, in the committee. This question about from taxes comes from twitter user protein single. Based on the latest near times report. Do you think there is probable cause for bank fraud or tax fraud, or does it appear to be just a political issue? rather than a legal one love your show take. Aspirate will thanks for the compliment about the show. Obviously, your going to that new Times report the came seventy one years ago, though no it was like nine or ten days ago, that suggested Donald Trump from or that reported the diagram has paid barely anything in taxes over the last number of years, some years paying listen and fifty dollars, and some years penguin the zero in federal income tax there's also reporting. The Donald Trump owes up to four

in twenty one million dollars to another, an unidentified lenders, there is a suggestion that in various transactions, perhaps He has overstated his monetary worth or his financial wherewithal in order to get credit and loans You got your question about bank fraud and tax fraud or the lots of people want to draw the conclusion basin than your times report. I don't Anything in the New York Times report that by itself and on its face, gives you probable cause to bank fraud. Attacks with a probable cause is a term of art. If you have probable cause in our sister that's enough evidence to actually make an arrest, and I don't think, there's an arrest that's about to be made. It does race, since, and it does raise suspicions about how Donald Trump handle this finances. There is a clear record of tax avoidance, which is not unlawful. I think that we need to be more investigation to find out if there was tax evasion, which is not lawful. What we do know It's its events, the Manhattan district attorney has been looking at the Trump financial situation for some time and there's been suggestion, and in that he may be looking at that.

But your times focused on was tax information, and I think got a case of bank fraud of the type that seems to be suggested. You would not need a tax information to figure out what the initial wherewithal and standing about Europe might be, but also need to figure out what the representations have been to outside financial institutions. And if you combine those two things and you see, there was a fraudulent representation about doll, trumps financial standing in order to get some benefit from a bank, then you would have potentially the makings of a bank forecasts. but I think from the New York Times, article alone. It is something that should launch an investigation or further and invest, patients already underway, like the one in sight, answers office but alone. Does it set out a case for bank for the tax? and by the way, just as on recording this a few minutes before I started recording this, the news came Second Circuit Court of Appeals, has again ruled in favour the Manhattan D. In so far as you can get information, financial tax information from doll drums accounts you'll. Remember that when the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court sent back to the district court from floors continue to fight it in the dust

Ford lost there. They have now lost again in the Second Circuit Court of appeals and scientists. Its advance is waiting to enforce the subpoena until dont from mixes. Hopefully, final last stop at the Supreme Court once again. This question comes from twitter users be are ex false arrest. You like a twitter, handle hashtag ass pre. What The best argument for Nominee Barrett to accuse herself from a future Trump Verses Biden and, what's the best argue for making her answer the refusal question at her hearing asking for a certain chief, just who wants to maintain the integrity of the court thanks your question: it's one! It's come up on. The oh and it comes up all the time when people are talking about how the confirmation hearing will unfold for any country. Barrett as we discussed in the show before there is very little, anyone can do to compel Us Supreme Court justice to accuse themselves. There have been This is a refusal we mention the case of Clarence Thomas refused himself the famous Virginia, Motor Institute case, whose majority

was written by with better Ginsberg, because times. The sun was a student at that institution at the time and they have been there's. One sitting, members of the Supreme Court had been involved in a particular litigation earlier on, like Alina Kagan when you Was it general in the Obama administration and there some other examples of those sorts of things? But this is self policing. There's no hierarchy to whom a choose a decision or non refusal decision can be appeal. So what you're left to in the confirmation hearing is political argument and persuasive argument? to try to convince Amy, Coney Barrett, to accuse yourself should be an occasion for her to be the deciding vote on some election related matter now. One thing is you will hear in the interview with Mark Elias. Although people are freaking out about this ability of an election related Supreme Court case that could give them since backed it I'll drop the likelihood of that, not high even require extraordinary set of circumstances in a narrow victory. The narrowest victories in a particular state for to wind up in the Supreme Court, and were Amy. Coney bear to be net position there, also people who argue

even if there is not an I've justice you basically, unless you related matter likely a five three court which, on Roberts in the five, and so the addition of any country where it just makes it six three. It doesnt Brca for four tie but I was that I think the best argument for why should refuse yourself in she should be made to answer. The refusal question is an appearance one to relates to the integrity of the court and people's faith in the court. You have to think about the context in which were finding ourselves The election is coming up: the Elect going on right now in fact load, began before any. there was even nominated to the Supreme Court and you have the power of United States saying openly and notoriously over and over again that one of the reasons he wants. Amy Coney bear to be confirmed before the election is to have nine Supreme Court this is then he says, is explicitly to decide any election related case, and what does he mean by that? He may decide in his favour because he assumes lucky assumes

all instances the people who he puts in positions of power whether there. attorneys or attorney general are loyal to him here down in his mind that if it came down to it the mirror of his nominating Amy Coney Barrett be the deciding factor in hand. comes out on any issue. He doesn't have this concept of neutral nation of the law. In his mind, he the knife, Justice Amy Coney, bear to be there for precise. This reason to help him when the election- whether not that's true- Would it not make sense? That is what it and there are other people who are allies of the predator, including to crews who says overrun when over again, we need that. Ninety, does to decide the election. So this may not be the fault of We can t bear it, although some people falter for in accepting the nomination under these circumstances. But person who nominated her and other people who have pledged their support for her are putting in the position of looking like if such a case comes before of looking like she's gonna, put the thumb on the scale for the press. And to remove any doubt about that and to remove the bad taste

people's MAO's. About that eventuality, she should commit to refusing herself anything the democratic right to pressure on it because what will happen to respect for the court already in decline. If there comes a moment when Amy Coney Barrett becomes potentially the deciding vote on an election related matter. After all this debate, an argument has taken place and after the present has telegraphed that's the reason he wants or on the court my best answer, state owned, there's more coming up right after this one simply save homesick

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dollars off when you use code preach a talk. Space dot com My guess this week is Mark Elias Mark as the go to Denmark, the collection lawyer in the country as the chair, the election or practice of Perkins Kui. He represents nearly every Democrat in Washington work is involved in thirty six active lawsuits to protect voting rights, any also leading the binding campaigns state by state vote counting operation. Goliath welcome to the show. Thanks for having me it's great to have you. I should point out the folks that we go. We go way back from my time and in the Senate back. I think two thousand five, when I think you me understand. For the first time how certain certain camping finance laws worked, so I wanted to thank you, for, I think Mulder tutorials you gave me back in the two thousand arts. I think that's diving, that's right, although I don't think you should thank me for knowing and how you got it

It was pretty arcane, as I recall I'm. I thought I thought I thought I knew understood aspects of a law fairly. Well, when I came there had been no, you are safe from five years, but campaign fine stuff made my headstone with an almost eight else. I worked on in the Senate. Yeah it of its Sorry it's complicated area, the law both because its heavily regulatory and also because the courts have been so of re writing, I'm so many, the camping fire. So it's one of these areas. Will you look at the statute and it bears very little resemblance to what the actual law in practice ones are being because you question how you even able to do this package shouldn't you be in court, so I think What do you mean? I don't mean to be overly But you know, there's lots of cases going. I wonder what do you? Do here yeah, so we have thirty six cases pending in federal and say court.

Good news is that I've got a big team of lawyers who are working with me. So that's that's good and the bad news which has actually facilitated this is covert, which so that so many of the court appearances now. our remote, so the days of having to jump from place to place to go to court houses are is on is on hold. It reminds me the time when I was the attorney and I was getting off the train. A grand central then it was so this big insider trading trial when a big early ones against Roger read them in a guy commuter comes up to me and he says we aren't you that guy prepared- and I said yes, what are you doing here? Cuz? I think it's like nine hundred and forty in the morning or late, shouldn't you be in court. I said what he's a that guy, that insider trading guy said Rob Roger Enemies, I guess you'd, be in court, and I said I've got people. I've got people people for that. So you have a lot of people to more. Young people, how many people you have so

Our my group is fifth, is fifty three lawyers, we actually have more than that right now, working on different aspects of different cases, so we have a lot of to talk about you- and I had a conversation a few weeks ago in which you scared the Jesus. television. Where you had me on your podcast. Will I thought, what below one reason your on obviously is cause you're, the in other nations, foremost expert and a lot of these issues and voting in everything else in your fighting hard to make sure that every vote counts critically democratic votes, but also very we're accordingly, on Monday, twenty nine days before election October, fifth, not before the election for election ends, I should say to be more accurate the people need to understand what is at stake. That is what the stake, but how things can go wrong and how they can most effectively make sure that their vote counts in other people's votes count, certainly, I've into one of the thicket stir mail in voting, and there are a lot of pitfalls to mail in voting. So I thought we'd

Go through some of them, so at an initial matter, millions of male Those have already been cast right, correct how's, that going so far from your perspective, no, as you point out, millions of people have already gotten and feel that in return there, their male interruption to ballots and country what the president was saying for a long time. Those two terms are synonyms. Republican seem to now acknowledge that so You call it absentee, or mail in millions of ballots have been returned. Here's. What we know number one it does seem like there is wide adoption of mail in voting, so the number of balance that have been returned exceed by a multiple, the comparable numbers four years ago. two years ago. They do, they seem to be more democratic. In other words, more registered Democrats are voting by mail or returning melon ballots than real. Weakens and in the states and in the states that we have data from you know,

are tracking rejection rights, and I think that that that's an important thing for people to to keep in mind. Is that when you vote in person the chances that you're ballot in person doesn't count are infant infinitesimally, small, vote by now some number of ballots that get cast by my wonder, getting rejected and that's what a lot of the focus of the litigation I've been involved in his on and it's some. You know something. When you look at the primary data indifferent stage, he saw some states had alarmingly high rates of rejections. Others had more typical rights, I want to get to the rejection issues in a second but first the divergence between voting by mail for Democrats and Republicans, when you tribute that too, really an interesting phenomenon. I attributed mostly to the president's misinformation and rhetoric the truth historically, there has not been a partisan Bennett to voting by mail and there really has been a partisan divided,

to who more by mail. You know you tenter older voter oftentimes your more by mail and they have reached in recent years, tended Republican. On the other hand, Democrats have tended to in very recent times, advocate their voters vote by male save, seem more democratic, MEL Voting, but it's usually a pretty narrow window. Our narrow gap between the two parties that very state by state this election cycle. That is not true, and it's almost certainly attributable to the fact that the president told so many lies and tried to bad mouth voting by mail so aggressively. Have you seen a change in the trend because of it, and saying what he sang and because of concern that we gonna get too in a few minutes about how ultimately, some melon votes may not be counted. Argument example, my own family. We were vote by male. We have the luxury of being able to devote early in this in your estate and plan to do that in person are using a shift back.

on the part of Democrats devoting early in person, verses voting by mail or is the trend line continued. It's really hard to tell I mean we are still twenty nine days as of today, when this is being recorded, will worsen. month out from the election, so you know hard to know how many people get a male ballot and then just decide to turn again and vote in person instead, and we know that until early voting really becomes more widely available and more states right now. You know there are only a handful of states that are doing early vote so. We don't really know until that period begins as to how much you will see, definitely for short, having even absent the present draft, yeah. You always have some people who get email ballot and unjust, decide at the last minute or not as a last minute you're. What I can vote in person Saul show up. You mean you, my dry buys you with the line, looks like TAT, not a tribe of you, so rejection of mail and ballots were primary reasons why,

on balance would get rejected and then, of course, could you address the circumstances in which the disproportionately affects, as I understand it, black voters, women, voters and young voters yeah. So the biggest reason across the board white male ballots are rejected is late received, so they caught, they simply come in too late and there are in rough strokes, are two kinds of states or states where, if your ballot is postmark by election day, accounts and states where asked be received by election day, regardless of when it was mailed, and particularly in those states that have that second rule where it has to be received by election day. We to see large numbers of mail in votes that are rejected because they simply arrived too late. So to put some numbers are perspective on that in, in the Wisconsin primary election in April, we sued over this. This issue over whether about such people

mark Beggar election they received by election day. Wisconsin Also rest. Merci, by election day, we suit, essentially postmarked by electronic. That issue went up report, we want on that it on that one issue and the net salt was that eighty thousand votes counted that wouldn't have it's actually a really interesting election to study, and I think social scientists will study it, because it's it's an example of because, though the postmark rule was adopted by the courts late in the process, is a really good measure of how many votes. What what the effect is of the switch in that rule you know. Eighty thousand votes and farmers a lot of votes so did a change, Oh, come at any rate, I dont know They never went back and looked out. You know it was a a reserve. Judicial election furs and cordial splinter are local actions, and I dont know, but it's better very well could have yeah, but but the other thing you say Prieta, which I think is important, is that

It would be a problem for our democracy if we had say a one percent reduction rate, which is the typical rejection rate of male ballots in a normal year. This is not an earlier that would be, you know, sort of not great for democracy. I wrote an article talking about the epidemic of uncounted ballots on and how that's? That's? Not? for democracy that back in January before the pandemic, but the problem is that when you look at whose compel, in that one percent you find some alarming trends. So you all probably remember that in to the twenty eighteen, there was a close Senate election in Florida. Don't Nelson lost by one point, four percent to Wreck Scott and there was a close gubernatorial election Andrew Bailum lost by four tensor.

said to dissenters a bunch of whatever side is, went back and looked at the data of the rejections in that election. Now that was before covered. That was before any of this right. It was a mid term election, but florid has got the pretty act but by male availability and what they found was that if you were eighteen to twenty one, the rate of rejection was five point. Four percent. If you are over sixty five point, six percent, if you were black or alot next year, rate of rejection was over two percent close to two and a half per cent in some instances if you were why he was under one percent, so we simply weren't rejecting these ballots at the same rates, so it had a distorting effect. The rejection rules had a distorting effect in disadvantaging young voters and voters of color relative to older voters and white voters Can a diploma question so that when the ballot is received on the face of the ballot

does not know the age of the voter or the race or ethnicity the voter right, while you dont typical, you won't know the age. The voter, typically but you don't race and and ethnicity can can be know, sometimes imputed, just by looking at deduced from names that is exactly what the cities you, one First Britain or maybe the harder one. Why are young people are being rejected at such a high rate, so the Ivan? that late received is the most common reason. The other reasons for rejection are in most states. Restate the most eight hours, signature matching issues, if you ve ever it absentee. You sign the Otter Envelope The reason why you sign that our envelope, the return envelope is that when your ballot is is processed by the county, that it comes back to the municipality They compare the signature on the otter envelope, the signature on file. Now again, this is not true in every state, but it's true, and in many states, including Florida and us

Rising number ballots in our elections are are discarded because the officials believed that the two signatures dogma. And particularly when you look at young voters, you often times have both higher rates of rejection based on late received because they tend to vote their ballots later than older voters, but also signature matching tends to disadvantage younger voters because they simply have not grown up in an age in which consistency of signature is is a main source of fun of confirmation of I get it. I didn't write checks anymore. They don't write checks anymore, but it is only Denmark. Design on the venerable gap, but even when they write checks- and I do not hesitate to say this to the former you- a story from Southern Europe but but my senses that when I was growing up at least, I always believed that when I was growing up- and you signed it

There is actually some bank somewhere. There was comparing the signature on the check with the signature on my account and that clearly doesn't on any more right, I was could I was worried about- and I- and I also suppose in my head in all these people, at these banks and other places where some form of signature were handwriting expert, which of course they are not right and the same with credit cards. Remember used to have to sign your credit card receipts and they used to keep a copy of the the credit card. Receipts signal her again, because there were some sense that that signature was gonna, be a important piece of the of the validation that it was your credit card or that you charge that, and that of course has become less communist. I'll so do just before we go into what the other discrepancies are about. Is the time for signature matching over that obsolete Was there any other way to deal with that? Yeah so there are other ways it states deal with it. I do think that

is for twenty twenty. The states that do signature matching verification, that's gonna, be yeah, that's gonna be in place. I think that I think you need to tackle signature verification in two into buckets. The first Is you need to recognise that there is a problem of over rejection of ballots based on signature match? You know, thinking I could have this number off by a little bit, but I think in the last election in Colorado they rejected ten thousand six hundred ballots based on signature match and, like that's just not plausible that there are sixteen thousand people who asked about that. It wasn't there about a great so so so number one in the short term. We need to make sure that the people doing the signature matching are giving the benefit of the doubt to the voter and that individual people are not disenfranchises voters without

multiple levels overview right, so you know some states say they have to be reviewed by three people have different and the least of one percent each party. That's one way to do it. Some building, actually a presumption of of match that Other way to do it. So that's one! That's one piece of your question. The other, which is the most important, is that voters need tweet. Provided that there is a discrepancy or alleged discrepancy and given an easy way to cure it in other words, a way to fix it. So in States believe it or not. If your ballot gets discarded based on signature match, they don't tell you so you never know that you're ballot didn't count and that's wrong. Every state should have to tell you that your ballot is being questioned based on signature and give you an opportunity to contest that finding or to cure it by providing another signature. So

That, I think, is the important in the here and now, but there are longer range ways to to move from signature, matching verification to other forms of verification the same people who were young between the ages of In addition, you, I guess everyone if your voting by male develop, a consistent signature yeah or at least use the same signature, the easiest when you registered and applied for the male ballot, and one of the reasons why you see a greater rejection rate among young voters here is because very often times young voters are registering on track pads on Digital D. This is and therefore their signature doesn't look the same when they signed it with a wedding paper and pen signature by two. So what about african american voters? So there is data, and I dont want. I don't wanna overstate this, because I'm not

in a I have not seen a peer reviewed study that pulled this piece out, but there is clearly some aspect of signature matching rejection that is influenced by non endless eyes names. So it's not just african organs, it's its hispanic surnames its prepared for that matter. The more angler sized, your name, the less often it is rejected based on signature matching. Then lesson was eyes names. Now, that's kind of in a biased. You think yeah yeah, that's something innate! That's unconscious. Now I mean there are there- are states where you know When this has been looked at, they realise that the person doing the signature comparison under

the first during a signature. Garrison has the envelope in front of them, and then they have a screen image of the signatures on file, and there have been a couple of states where they ve noticed that when they pull up those signatures on the screen, they are pulling up. The full voter registration card, for example that may have race I write so so it's important that states move away from providing those other kinds, accuse us of race or age necessity, because our states that maintain those that that data, but it shouldn't be on it shouldn't be available to the person doing this signature matching the other you facing majority vote in general is again. Is the law is the issue of late received, because we know that are even when the postal services working properly. We know there are differences in the mail delivery times from different zip codes.

and oftentimes you see, more affluent codes have faster mail delivery than less affluent so There are a lot of pieces that go into why male ballots get voted later and get delivered later, but Thou art, I would say, would be the other. The other big these are you in a position to give advice to folks now as to whether they should vote by mail or vote early in person if their able to Lord you stay away from it? Here's what I tell everyone number one. The most important thing is to make sure your registered and make sure you vote and make sure you vote early. Now, if you want to vote by mail, it means you should apply for and get your mail ballot. Ah as soon as you can and voted as such You can't return it as soon as you can, because, to be honest with you, most of the problems were talking about with no valid and get cured or are curable. If you cast your ballot early right, the biggest problem for talking on the mail ballot or things that happened when people weigh

and don't vote their email ballot right away and they and then there is a problem in the truly to fix it or to arrive too late, So if you want a vote by mail by all means but by mail, but do an early by one method. By what method should they return their male vote? If its earlier The postal service is fine if you have a dropbox. Available in your community. Drop boxes are ideal because saw they get picked up directly by the election officials, some people will hand them in directly to the county in states where that's allowed, but the key is to do it early because that will allow make shortcuts in on time it gets for some time. If, on the other hand, you are someone who prefers to vote in person or you have, the ability to vote in person doesn't question that voting in person is good. To lower the risk of rejection to almost zero, almost a year. I never say anything zero, but, but you know, voting in person is obviously going to

you're out by the Tibetans, have you walk out of that that voting booth, you're gonna, know our shortly pulling place? You are likely to have senior go into a machine and counted so for people don't want to rely on the mail service or rely on dropping off a melon balladur, or all of that voting in person is always going to be, in some sense a better alternative. Now again, though, I would caution you that that's a great alternative, if you're going to do it early Sophia State that, as early in person voting, you know by all means The great solution may be the best solution. If you, if it's only election day, I worry about people, you know it's raining on election day or wind up with it with some issue on election day, and then he went about voting it also. My key messages vote is stir, vote and vote earlier, either in person or by now. What about some of these other issues that are relevant in certain states under some places

still wear an absentee ballot needs to have a witness yeah talk about a arcane requirement. That really is unnecessary and trips up voters. There are states that have witnessing requirements. We have food and number of those states, so we stood Minnesota and and enter into a consent decree to suspend their while witness requirement, for for this election cycle due to covid. We actually have a case any moment could get a ruling on in the Us Supreme Court. We sued South Carolina in the federal court. They are struck down their witness requirement. Is it Covid related issues? The fourth circuit and bunk affirm that and the Republicans have sought, search and stay in the Us Supreme Court. In North Carolina we sued over the witness requirement. We entered a consent Cree, which was entered last Friday to federal court, then enjoying that,

or enter tomorrow, against that I'd five o clock on Friday. So I just saw just before we started that state of North Carolina filed an appeal in that case, So there's lots going on in terms of witness requirements in court Kenya actually enter into get sent agree with it with. I can t see how you were the lawyers committee decision when his climate, but there are lots of states that still have witnessed requirements and they really do effect. The ability of the voters to vote, because, in the age of covered telling people that they need to go, find some come over to wise dancing. So, whereas Hosanna Gerais is that it's not like you can just like you know, you understand that. Properly with us a ballot. It's not like you sign it, and then you send it over to someone to sign their actually supposed to be standing net. Close enough to you to see you sign about, and no you personally, you can't get entering,

its correct or actual legal notary. It's like deputizing, a notary, rated Oklahoma. You need a notary anything that ever required a notary in my life- I just I just gave up on the thing I've just I'm just I'm gonna get that thing that requires a notary it's really I mean you know this from from your work, really interesting because, like the federal courts have largely moved away or not, archly gully entirely moved away from moved away requirements, except for limited number things like motions and motions. Unlike you know. There's the idea of the self affirmation under over sworn affirmation has replaced it and I'm not sure why that's not more prevalent talk about the issue of so called naked ballots to make about. Yes, a naked ballots for those of you who again voted absentee in many jurisdictions. Many states you fill out the ballot

put it inside an inner envelope, sometimes referred to as a security envelope, and then you put that envelope inside the outer envelope and sometimes referred to as the mailing envelope. So, fill out the ballot you put it inside essentially a blank envelope and then that buying envelope inside the envelope that you fill out the information on the back of the theory of of that inner envelope is too sure that when the person who opens the or envelope takes out your ballot there so you voted for because your name is on the outside of the outer envelope. It's a way of giving you the security that no one knows who is who you voted for its? It's meant to protect the voter. Oddly enough in Pennsylvania, the Republicans have turned what is really intended to be the protection to the voter two of their secrecy of their ballot. They ve hunted into a way to try to disqualify male voting now ballots by saying that, if the

It does not come in an inner security envelope than the ballot doesn't count. So essentially, that is what is your virtues in naked values, ballot that is in the return envelope, but is not inside this inner security envelope. It is therefore naked inside the outer rim I hope, the notion that we should therefore disenfranchise the voter, because there is a theoretical risk that the person opening the outer envelope would see you they voted for, seems like a perverse ah remedy. I think I think it is not a court a fraud. It's it's a mistake made by the voter that only potentially and hypothetically harms the voter correct. That's the kick right when we say it's a mistake, by the voter like it's in some sense here- is a mistake made by them, but honestly, like the voter, may not air if the person opening, and looked notes that many people- don't I don't mind of the whole world- knows that I plan to vote not further trunk. I guess it's really ready. So, yes, it's a really weird Remo.

To then say we're going to disenfranchise that voter boards, the full Sophie there. So it would seem that the issue is not India has authority without equality, is Eric assumption. Then the Republicans are making in and he had those valets rejected, because they believe that the mistake more likely to be made by a democratic voter. I mean that is the that is the political calculus behind it, and I think it's important that you just for insulting. Also, yes, I think it's. I think it very important that which you know your question is in sight always that people understand that that the arguments of the rebellion for making import- none of or ideological. They are all just political. I mean they seek to prevent states from sending out male ballots. They suit to prevent states from providing dropbox as they seek to prevent states from counting ballots better postmarked by election day. They suit went states from in here from stopping them from being long lines they sue. I there's no form of voting,

in which they are saying, this is good and therefore we need more of it. I've checked before that. Was any lawsuit where there was any barrier to loading. The Republicans wanted struck down, I'd probably join them, but there isn't there's. No there's no aspect the voting process that they aren't seeking to make more difficult? What's the issue related to ballot harvesting so called I would harvesting the about. Everything is a is a misnomer of the yard of the Republicans of used for the practice of third party ballot collection. The eye Is that some voters who don't have regular access to mail service or don't trust the mail would prefer to have one who they do trust deliver their ballot in person to the election officials or drop it in the mouse you know the other day I voted by by male hum. And aid for a moment was had touched. My wife about her take, my ballot and dropping it off

and then I realized that Virginia law doesn't allow third party ballot collection, so stead high. I went and took my own ballot to the to the post office and dropped it off my son, her delivering that to the post office would have been a form of third party ballot collection and delivery. Even to the point I've just to the post office sure so one of the biggest issues of ballot collection that comes up is in native american communities, where there's no on reservation mail service. what they will oftentimes want to do is have a Essentially a collection point where people can common drop off to their male ballot, so that one indeed I commend DR oftentimes. You know an hour or more to the local post office to then drop them off

That's not uncommon. We sued Arizona and struck down their ban on third party ballot collections case your spring quarters granted sort on so that case will be heard and heard this term probably be you touched on in January, the issue and rob the native Americans, but also whirl latino populations that that used it as a means to make sure there ballots guardian. We sued Montana, parallel ass. If to Lhasa file by the five native american trunks, were they made exactly? The point I just laid out, which is that for on intervention native Americans in Montana. This is really the different strict being able to vote or not being able to vote so that the upshot for this election, given the great shift, particular among Democrats to mail in voting will be as United disgustingness? people been discussing on on television in the news that Anna our third because of this skewing of the vote towards mail by Democrats and given the

that most states count votes and by what priority another prioritizing in in voting on Election day verses mail in voting in most states that it will look, and some people call this the Red Mirage they will look on November. Third, in the evening, the Donald Trump is leading. lots of places and leading nationally. You told me a few weeks ago that you pay Did you believing by a lot what you're prediction today as to what the official count will look like in the evening of November? Third, so look I mean it's. It varies state by state, but I think that in the main you are correct and there are a couple of important states that are exceptions to that, including Florida Florida actually does a really good job of processing their male ballots. Not all they want to. hundred percent of them by election day, but they will have processed allowed one of the male ballots before elections so you could very well see if far Vice President Biden

in Florida on election night. The rest of the EU election coverage looks very different August torture in a world in which he wins Florida, and- and innocent trailing in Europe yet right and doesn't window with all thing, but you look at other states like Rainier, where they don't start, processing, absent or change in the law which is still possible, but now we're getting closer. where they dont process, the male ballots at all until the Poles close or they don't start opening counting them till the bulls hose then The election, the results you'll see on election night are gonna, be just the in person voting and if, in fact, you have Democrats voting at much higher rate by mail and Republicans voting by hurried person, it's gonna look on election night by Donald Trump has won a resounding victory and pursuing you when that is true and he's counting on his gaming he's gaming. For that right, he look. I think that he is. I think that that trust

Entire plan for real action is about de legitimize in voting strictly voting by male frightening people. And hoping that that has a suppress of effect on the electorate, because I think you. set. If everyone who wants to vote votes, he loses back and saw it. Cynical game is buying, but I think that's the game. So you're gonna get me a number as to what the race will look like and that Tuesday I dont, because I dont know, because because some choices. Is it because, get a startling when I hear people talk about this because everyone expects it to be. You know someone close its typically been close in prior elections. The electoral colleges is it feasible to Donald Trump, ultimately lose the election if all the votes are able to be counted, but on election night, look like he's winning by eight ten points, in states like in states. I can tell you where were they landslide yeah right, I mean again that won't be true and fly.

But short in some states are definitely could be. True- is thwarted the Battleground State in which the male imbalance will be counted along the way, I think the other state to look at. along the same lines would be North Carolina again, if Donald troubles North Carolina, then the king than the races over. So I have taped to say battleground in the sense that they are, must win for Trump. They are not, must win for binding right. If you look at the, if you look at that when he sixteen map for Hilary, of one she needed to have one Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin either of those involved, not path. Victory did not involve Florida or North Carolina, but those are two states right now appear this based on public also very close, and if those two states went by nor either of them, went by, and then it could be a much shorter night by. I think, according to Forbes, gems nail, salons, hotels, mom and pop stores and more are set to go in and epic hiring spree in the coming months.

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I want to ask you about how the media is going to react all this, because in a way we ve been talking in the realm of what the official vote is. But in most elections that you and I listeners have ever witnessed most there is called by some media organization organizations and then you can see it because they see the handwriting on the walk doesn't happen very close races. What happens in a lotta races and that's before all the best had been counted. It's because people see a particular candidate forgot for example, and to state on the deck set Aside- is ahead. There's all sorts of that remain to be counted, but they come from liberal enclaves, so the presumption, people do some statistical analysis and they realize you know what there's no way that the republic is gonna put out or could be vice versa in a different kind of election. What is going, happen here. Given my understanding that I think you gave me this understanding that why it is true that many these states, the absentee votes, will not be counted. till election day, there will be a record of who has mailed in an absentee vote. I think in ITALY

states, if not many states, and given it that's public information, servers, Evelyn brown votes early in the USA election will be now to outsiders, media organisations. Third parties, that I am known Democrat. I am unknown proponent of Joe Biden. The fact that I cast my ballot must mean that it was abiden vote and, if you take that, but time with respect to all the absentee valets doesn't a pretty clear picture. Potential emerge as to how a candidate did in that state, and this is this- is, I think, gonna be a challenge, as you say, for the media, because You know we are all used to the media having certain tools at their disposal number one they have, the unofficial were returns as they start to come in, which you know is what we sometimes virtues the as numbers, but they are They are not the certified numbers and numbers you see on the screen on tv, stranger, interest, screens and election. Those are not certain,

numbers are artificial returns coming in from the counties from the precincts to the counties in the counties of the state, so you'll have that data. The second is You'Ll- be able to compare that data to historical data. so you'll know okay well yeah. At the end send vote. You know this is what this town was versus. The past you'll have exit polls which you know people don't talk that much about anymore, but the networks are still gonna. Do exit polls and that will include both in person end also vote by male exit polls, which, basically, they will become. Doing this all stuff that the networks and, if you have announced they'll, be though maybe be making telephone call. So they will have a data set of people who have told them who they voted for by absently. And finally, the networks will have what you just said, which is that they'll have, in most states still have lists of who has returned and absentee ballot

so there you they will now whether of the absentee ballots that were that were requested, which of them were returned and then It will therefore be able to have some sense based on partisan. Officially, one of those voters and geographic, a villain, jeer, geography of those voters. You know what when I was in New York City versus the turn out- and you took a New York right so so they'll have all that those tools- and the question is yeah we're use do for those of us who watch election night coverage, there is always this weird dance that you see where they were, where the network anchor have access to the exit polls, but they don't say it until the end close, you kind of like try to read between the lines based on their body language rights. The problem is happens when that's not one day, but that's Euro two days. Three days or four days like at some point, Yo

the media? Is I'm still talk about that night, because I'm just I'm just confused about this? Isn't it true that there are states? and maybe one or more battleground set, or at least can you identify state in which the following might be true, that the majority of votes? these. Sixty percent of the votes are cast by mail in order- Sir cast in person from his leading in the official count because of the hundreds Republicans devoted in person in that state, but because of jam, access to the the demographics and the party affiliations of the other, sixty said who voted by mail that are not counted yet. Wouldn't a reasonable media outlets be able to predict that, notwithstanding the child from five or six point, hypothetical led in the in person voting tally that he will lose and will they be prepared to call it for binding and that circumstance, because that makes a big that's the question that is having you. You ve put your finger on it. There are states, that I mean frankly, New York. Maybe one of the states

your Arizona state. That is, seventy percent. Historically, seventy percent vote by mail, so the the the answer is yes, and if you go back to twenty sixteen look at the network's coverage of Virginia, where our trump did look like. He was winning for much of the evening and the networks to their credit, eventually call Virginia for Clinton, even when it still looked like Trump was winning, because the This is a micro example of what you are referring to Virginia its changed since then, but there there used to be that that, by now, as the majority of voting in Virginia. They didn't have no excuse absentee voting, but a large number of people would still vote excuse absentee, particularly in Fairfax kind. Which is the largest country in the state, and so there was this thing called the they fairfax half the central absentee precinct. It was

collection of all the mail in votes in Fairfax sandwich large carrying the state of very democratic county, and until you got the cap number in it, look like Donald Trump was winning But anyone who knew that these were the people who had voted euro that that there were. You know, I'm making up a number of our member at your two hundred thousand ballots in the Fairfax cap, and this was the demographics of who castles ballot. You knew that the vote. when those ballots came in we're gonna flip the results as it were. Are we overly worrying about this people? Keep talking about the issue of I'm just in opposing posing the hypothetical trouble declare victory and all the numbers will affect their in his favour, but there will be. Lots of numbers and lots of data that will be invited in favour and will it be up to the media ultimately or some other group? you know to cut through the nonsense on that evening, not not waiting a day or two or three as if the bag and goes into November. Third, with these

pull ratings and, let's assume their accurate Biden should be clearly winning in multiple battleground states and all the other states that Hillary Clinton won in twenty sixteen, and isn't it possible that I don't have lower people's fears? Cuz, I think fear is a good motivating factor, but doesn't terms with the announcement Is it also possible that will have a clear winner in Joe Biden on Election day and not have to wait because of these predictive did as possible? Yeah yeah every possible and and again. I think that there is a chance that we do know one election night. The Joe Biden is one. I worry. at the media will give too much running round to President Trump I can tell you because why? Because it because, as an it's, a new way of tabulating outing now, because because

I can tell you I was in the form of compound of or on the floor of sweets and twenty sixteen were Secretary Clinton was, and I dont want to suggest that I was playing a more central role than I was, but in the discussions that took place it never occurred to anyone to falsely claim victory simply to so called chaos like it never occurred to us as a leg. Just go to the job at centre and say we won right end, and so we ve never had a candidate whose done that. Right when candidates lose, they concede, or at least they dont claim victory. Incredibly important. So everyone knows because he's told us that no matter what happens that Tuesday he's gonna declare victory, and I guess my question is and if you gotta go get word to Joe be appreciative if these other models show and I represent

Joe Biden, when I concede, if it's not clear but These other predictive models show the buying is winning and has enough votes to get the electoral college. What is trigger finger for declaring victory, as opposed to simply avoiding concession that I got that that I don't know, I can't speak for the vice president. Our one hears campaign would do. I can tell you that I think that is if it is. Let's say that Let's say it is clear to all that vice President Biden has either one or is likely to win. I think the key what is the media gonna do if President Trump then so maybe he's going on to declare victory at scale dogma. Business, I'm a lawyer that someone who's media at the sister sister media person to figure out, but I do think that that's what makes trump different than any other candidate, I don't think we ve had any other candidate or office holder who approaches

where he is. What are some of the things that you worry about Post November? Third, That's the trouble administration either through the age or through the attorney general, might do to prevent the counting, especially these absently ballot, They might see the result so lock. My job is to worry about everything. I asked but thank you, thank you, be honest with you are elections are, are largely decentralized. You know the truth is it's interesting I had a case in in Florida that we wanted to trial court, not reverse that the eleven circuit- and there are grounds for reversal of the eleven circuit- was that we had sued the Secretary of State, who is the chief elections officer. But the eleven circuit found that the network that being the chief election collections officer, She was actually not empowered to run elections in Edna Florida and that

needed to sue die all sixty seven counties because it actually thereby counties? Now I happen to think that a word about seeking a monk review of that panel decisions. I dont think its correct, but it does get too. There is a all of something there, which is that the idea just doesn't run? Elections the attorney general. As you know, I haven't been: U S journey. You really didn't have authority over the conduct of elect. Yes, but think they can. They see authority in peculiar circumstances to interfere with election. You know, I don't think so I mean again the other. This is something everyone's gotta it you people who who are paid to worry about that? first. The worst year will will gain this out and figure out what the counter plans are. But My experience is that the the local elections official in you know, Leon County Florida kind of right,

the elections and Leon. Can't you ve, Porpita oftentimes does even listen to what the states as and you know the these states are given the cat The traditional power run elections and though Congress is given an override authority that I authority is given to Congress is not given to the president to talk into the attorney general it's not given to AIDS are given to deal just so you know again, I don't wanna, be I don't. Wanna have rose color glasses on. I realize you know, as I've said to many people. Donald Trump is is shameless and therefore he's dangerous, because we have no shame you're going to do anything, but I do think that the court system and the local election officials would balk at the idea. At the federal government's ability to disrupt local election officials from doing what is their constitutional obligation and right. What about this issue too

people are speculating about that allows state delegations to maybe change the result of the election and throw it to the house. I don't care, you mean state legislatures. Yes, yes, dad again, I think that that would run into really serious constitutional problems. There is certainly a questions to other states need to hold presidential elections. Others could the could estate simply choose to slate its own electors without holding a presidential action an interesting question, but not one that we face ever since every state currently is holding, is binding on all the election and confident that's gonna happen. I think once they ve held that election. I think the ability of the state legislatures to step in becomes harder and, of course, of governor? You have you have democratic governors in Michigan in Wisconsin, in Pennsylvania and North Carolina, so I think I think, be chatter about that. I think it's a legitimate. You know thing for for people to be prepared for

The main focus right now is making sure everyone registers to vote and votes, and and make sure their vote counts and naturally, where I'm spending my my time and effort is a particular state or to where you think the efforts are most important yeah. I think you know Pennsylvania, Wisconsin Michigan, not just because their traditional battleground but because they are states that do not have particularly Pennsylvania and Michigan do not have histories of large numbers of people voting by mail. So I focus on states that are essentially adapting covered by having to really adapt to covered a state like Florida You know, though, run by republic governor of the Secretary of State uncertainly, wouldn't I have suit and have profound disagreements with number of things they they have a population that is used. That is it. Stem too early voting accustomed to vote by mail and have county officials who nothing. So I worry more in the states

these are new processes and therefore they having to develop New York. You know I was not a shining example always of expansion of it by mail, so I hope I hope that goes well now that it is expanded. You know I worry more about those states based on experience. Can talk about one case that we are talking about before we came on that is very angering to a lot of folks and that's. The drop off you in Texas, where you have these large counties, is it as large as some american states where there had been multiple drop off locations for people too, deliver their absentee ballots and nor seems the governor seems unilaterally in various places be reducing those drop off locations to one spot. How bad, then, what we? What are you doing about it yeah? So it's terrible number one number two! It actually proves the dirt that the sort of the limitless effort by report.

and to make loading harder. So, let's just start at the beginning right so first publicans said: if you by now we don't want third party ballot collection rate. We don't want. Were there it was ballot harvesting. We don't want people heading their others to be delivered. We want voter stuff to vote and deliver their own ballot great. Then they soon Pennsylvania because they didn't want drop boxes, Katy Pennsylvania because it or draw boxes. The republican governor of of Jerry was a secular state of Ohio, cut back on the number of drop boxes I will cut, but Republicans embracing, I will come back and dropbox is right. I didn't have war on drop boxes. On my twenty twenty motor suppression, bingo card, but fine. We then got to the place where about with him, so want drop boxes. Gazeta drop boxes urge insecurity or unmanned there. Standing out there in the public for people to use? So now we re

point where voters are like. Ok, I'm gonna actually the hand in my ballot in person to an election official right. No third party nodes looks like it's literally from me to the election official and the governor of Texas, is now limiting that. So well, you can only have that in one place per county will what the heck is, that of a right. I think what you think they had some boy: how do they want people to get their ballots back like yeah they did they are. They are narrowing and narrowing the ways in which voters can make sure they're ballots get in on time. So so we are suing over there,

Are you gonna win that one I got I observed, so you know the courts. Are you now? We ve had a number of cases and text where we wanted to try. A court in the fifth circuit has been challenged, but if ever there was something that you would think everyone could agree on, it would be that people being able to end in their completed ballot in person to an electrode official should not be limited, clear evidence of bad faith. So a parlor game has been Now, parliament, I mean to minimize the issue, but we have Supreme Court vacancy and tat crews and I'll trump and others keep saying. We need to have a full nine justice court to deal with. Whatever contests will occur, golly over the election anyone's predicting that there will be some. You know that better than anybody but

many people time. But what is the thing? What is the scenario or scenarios pearl? You think, will actually make its way to the Supreme Court. What what's a credible posture for there to be in the period after November? Third, in which a Supreme Court might decide who won the election, looks at one of the Good NEWS. Stories of there being so much litigation before election day is that, hopefully, there will be less litigation after election that rights alive. the litigation when I say there were litigating, no thirty, five cases. A lot of that is that at least the courts are considering re election. What some of these balls and strikes are, and even though I may not always like the way, those calls or made it is better for those to be made in advance of election day than after elections, for a variety of reasons: in being one of them. The fact that rulings made after it over the ballots have been cast for you know or present different challenges. Voters can

cancel it right, so it doesn't mean there won't be post election litigation or that there isn't bunk necessarily be a need for it. But hopefully one of the Good NEWS stories is that some of this stuff is being done now the substance to be litigated post election to be over the way in which ballots are being true, it's so obviously the most famous case. Bush Gore dealt with Euro, whether there could be a recount partial recounted. The state involving the so called hang Chad ballots you're very, very infrequently. Do cases generate that kind of attention that while the Weighted spring court. But you know in every post election there, some number of cases that get filed because there is some audible. circumstance or some set of unforeseen events over the counting ballots on that that takes place for it to be another Bush versus Gore, the electricity exceedingly close, and it has

in a pivotal state, so I never say never and certainly every two years I prepare for that, and we ve had some very close elections and the Senate some go. We had almost close election, two thousand foreign Ohio, or we had until now, commerce. We had a close one extra rather in into that organs, one for I meant to say unto doesn't foreign Ohio and then obviously the three states in twenty sixteen but you're out? That's that's! That's. I think how I feel weight less encouraging because it seems like everyone is assuming for a fact that there's gonna be a battle to go to the Supreme Court in case it it's a close election which it may be in your so sure about them. Now I'm saying that in order for it to be a close enough election for the courts to make a difference and has to be a really close election, I mean like not close as unlike two points close as in two tenths of a point, and that's that's what I mean

is that Europe ultimately sent over carry lost in Ohio by eighty thousand votes, and that was a close election. But it was not a close enough that any particular court decision was gonna change the outcome of the thoughts, so gonna remember in Florida, in two thousand, we were talking about less than a thousand votes at issue in right. If there are people who are listening, who want to be helpful to your efforts and efforts generally the election? What vice to them today become poor watcher. Should they become full workers, should they sign up If their lawyers to volunteer for some efforts are accepted volunteers gas at what Tom Tom what they can do just so here are a few things. The first is in twenty eighteen, two thirds of poor workers were over the age of sixty and a quarter over the age of seven and obviously you can only open pulling locations if you have a sufficient number of poor workers. So there is a major push which I completely wholeheartedly engaging too.

have people who are able and healthy and young to get trained. As pole, workers, you can contact your local county officials, and they can teach they can tell me to do that. There's an organization, great organization called power. The poles you gotta, though their website and sign up now connected with the right people. So for people who are willing to do that, that's great! I have a website them up you talk about com where why track Oliver Litigation put out good advice? We also have a place where people can sign up for power. The poles also other another orders had called me, the actual, which is for lawyers or for hours. Through our website. We people sign up, we lost, let them in the right place in which a website you sissy webs, arrogant democracy back at TAT, come and then find if you want to sign up for the Biden campaigns. Voter protection program, if you go to them website. There is a link where you can sign up with your lawyer anomaly or to be a pole, pole watcher, or while some help by vice president binds campaign

Also, a member of the special litigation team announced it has them another people, former General Eric holder, your former partner by Bower how's, that separate from the effort to even undertakings, or so the average Ivan undertaken so far have been. You know, on behalf of a variety of political committees. I've brought lawsuits on behalf of the Dnc, the Democratic sent, a campaign for a delicate, rational, camping committee and also very progressive non profit organisations, just as a private law. Representing clients. You know for the Post election period. The Biden campaign will be one of those clients, I'm so the work I do for them in separate, obviously from the work I do for for the other clients. last question. Is there one election related case that you either most proud of? Were you thought, the most you know you ve been involved in a number of close recounts, including our frankly, two thousand eight Harry Red and ninety, ninety eight does any one of those teach him more than the others.

He's going to this may surprise you, but the case I am proudest of is case. Actually couple years ago. We Mississippi, Mississippi a law actually stay constitutional provision that required that, in order to be elected governor or to other they wide state office. You needed to not only when the popular vote, but essentially you'd also needed to win a majority of these state legislative districts. little mini electoral college, and this was put this lot. This constitutional provision was put into the state constitution as part of a racist of validly racist, like not hidden Lee Racist on effort to prevent the newly enfranchised black men that I'm his own men of Mississippi from Elekta,

candidate choice, so the white Population, Mississippi, convened an emergency elect a merger Souffle constitutional convention in the eighteen. Ninety to do this and effectively was able to disenfranchise and keep african Americans from electing a black governor since that- and there is ever going to block of an earth of Mississippi in part because of this provision, and we we challenged this provision and the cork indicated that the provision was almost certainly unconstitutional was was what he was going to ruin unconstitutional gave the state of Mississippi an opportunity to correct it, so on the ballot. This November is a constitutional amendment that will repeal that provision and move Mississippi to the normal process of forever gets. The most votes wins and it is actually the case I am most prouder of, because you know this was a this: was about one election or one candidate. This was really a structural impediment in the Mississippi

constitution that you know had prevented generations of black leadership, and so it is. I am unaware, day. I'll are that Africa, China will be checking a few results, will be checking their presence obviously I'll, be checking the weather. The Democrats have taken control of the Senate and then obviously the lead, the margin in the house and then I'll be job keeping eyes on this provision, because I hope MRS the UN's do the right thing in in repealing that provision it has by, artisans port to reveal that provisions. I'm glad about that. So that's the case, I'm proud of stuff. You know I lied. I have one more question is addressed thought of it, and I don't have involved in this at all, but Phelan we enfranchise, but in Florida Is there any merit at all under Florida? Lock your knowledge in the argument

that might Limburg and others who are offering to pay the fines and penalties of former felons violates the law so that they are able to vote now. There's no merit there's no merit under state law. There's no merit under the federal vote buying scheme, which is the other thing that you hear Republicans talk about. My glimmered is trying to do just one of those public goods that could be done in Florida, which is to help solve a problem that has been created by the courts and by you know, really cynical behaviour on the part of the Republicans in the state. So now one of the great merit to it are, you think, it'll be blocked. You think so those people be able Based on the view, I think that I think the hardest thing is not the hardest thing about it, is not the legal action. The hardest thing is that the system is set up very often that these folks,

We even know what they are resolved. If you don't tell them how I think I'll it's hard to pay off now. Are we like Indonesia, before your restaurant, and you have a nice meal? Is it you can't leave until you payable? What do we owe that we can tell you right, so you can to my seat. He produced prison in the restaurant. Nobody would stand for that in any other kind. Exchange interaction in the country, but it is to stand in Florida for these reasons that you described crack mobilise thanks for joining the thank you my conversation with Mark Elias, continues for members of the Cathy insider community. Try out the membership free for two weeks, the cafe dot com, slash insider you'll, get access to the full archive of exclusive content, including the weekly podcast I covered to their Milgram audio, is by Elly haunting me, the United Security package hosted by LISA Monaco and can wasted and a cyberspace podcast hosted by John Carlin in fact, in this week's episode job, joined by Sean Henry President of Cyprus,

ready for him crowd, strike down the cyber threats to our upcoming election and the lessons from twenty. Sixteen check it out again, that's capita come slash, insider So this we're going to close other showed with a shout to the most I think loyal listener, not just of stay tuned, but also the cafe insider and United Security and cyber space and loyal reader of all the notes that we put out and basically all the content on CAFE and most loyal listener and reader is my dad some of you may have seen over the weekend on social media, on Twitter and on Instagram. My dad turned eighty one on Sunday and, as I also mentioned my way, I drove down. New Jersey have essentially distanced lunch outside when my mom and dad who were wearing Joe Biden vote, masks the very careful given their demographic future. Curious we

cousins seafood clamber in Marlboro, I recommended highly. There is large that was consumed in my dad's favoured. Lobster. Do I posted a photograph of my modelled on the occasion of my dad's eighty first birthday, there is response from a lot of folks. Some You told me about your own dad, your own mom. Some of you told me that you had birthday celebre it's near in time to my dad's birthday, so you about the loss of your mom or your dad and how you miss them very much, some of and were especially warm somebody. Fruit is maybe my favorite comment, birthday, your dad. He looks Simon uneasily wise and youthful, my dad caught that, but I want to make sure he got to hear that to the day after I posted a photograph bye, dad text me and he says prettier than say thank you to each of the people who said happy birthday right. I said that there were little thousands of people who wished him well

so rather than go one by one on the twitter which, by the way is generally terrible, but on occasions like this is actually quite wonderful. Thank you all for your good wishes. For my dad means. A lot to him means a lot to me, I'm lucky to have my parents, as many of you pointed out, and it's something the pain, demek and you'll get to see your loved ones as much. There was a nice thing to see my mom and dad, and I love you dad. I love you mom, and everyone should take a moment sometimes when everything is terrible and many things are terrible to appreciate your family because was more important than that. That's it for this episode of statehood, Thanks again to my guest Mark Elias If you like what we do Reagan,

The show an apple pie casts or wherever you listen. Positive review. Helps new listeners find the chef. Send me your call is about news politics, injustice, tweet them to me three per with a hashtag aspirin Call me a message at six hundred and sixty nine, two hundred and forty seven, seven thousand three hundred and thirty eight that's six. Six. Nine two Praetor bore, you can send an email to stay tuned. A cafe outcome. NATO is presented by CAFE studios. Your host is prepared The executive producer is tomorrow, supper the singer for it Is Adam Waller Senioratu? producer is David TAT ashore, and the cafe team is Matthew, Billy David Falander, We are stating no as lie: not Wiener Jake, Kaplan, Calvin, Lord Jeff eyes him and Chris boiling Sean Walsh and Margo Mally. Our music is by Andrew Dust on pre baronne statehood.