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when you were in his presence knew of the most important person in the world. He had the ability like looking, you write my heart: join in his second term, so already had one old term to watch how he did visit and then to walk to City Hall and see people who I had looked at it like celebrity sightings who are part of his administration and I think what it, brought out in the sense that we all should feel about, the people ass. The way I felt about her Washington, that's Valerie you may know her as a long time adviser to President Obama. Jarred also has a wealth of experience. Green Chicago start. it City hall, with the city's first blackmail and later become Chairwoman of the Chicago Transit Board salaries. New book is called finding. My voice my journey to the West Wing and the path forward. I speak with her about growing in Shiraz. Iran leaving her job at a time, law for him to get in the mud of Chicago politics and Meeting Michel Robinson Michel's. Then

on say Barack Obama, but first I'll get your questions. That's coming up statehood, if a cafe recently launched something to help you keep on top of today's new cycle. The cafe brief It's a newsletter that recap news at analysis of politically charged legal matters since twice a week, sign up to stand, formed a cafe, dot com. Slash brief! That's cap aid outcome! Slash brief! This question comes in a tweet from twitter user. Chris Houston, who asks? Is it legal for Linsey, Graham to suggest Don Junior break the law and ignore assented subpoena? Should it be, and then he taxpayers-

including folks they like very much than what is George Conway been roads. It's very unsettling watching the rule of law become squishy an optional, that's a soviet thing, not an american thing. Thanks crisper your question, so we often talk on the show and on the inside, a pot cast about the distinction between something being unlawful crossing a threshold of being illegal and criminal verses. Its pinks were wrong, immoral, unethical and sometimes even unpatriotic, and so here, based on what I have seen that Linsey Grandma said about the prospect of Donald Trump Junior, testifying again before the Senate does not really break the law. He's editor his exercising his power of voice and from what I've seen. I think he suggested that donging you, like any other witness, could just a service, if amended, privilege against self incrimination which, by the way, has applied for consequence doll trump. His father once upon a time said in a way that repudiates a couple of centuries of jurisprudence and understand

the fifth amendment that anybody who pleads the fifth is obviously guilty of a crime. But consistency doesn't seem to be a part of anything important, Donald Trump or his family. So, there's that I do think I, on the other hand, though, if you are actually a member of the Senate and one of your fellow chairman member Linsey, Graham, is the chairman of the temporary committee and senator birds. The chairman of the sense, like many unintelligence, to suggested a good faith request for testimony to the form of a subpoena which is compulsory to any American is somehow something that should be ignored or flouted is a terrible look for senator I'm truancy, Grand one like it. If other folks, including members of his own party, were saying that about things that he wanted to look at. I will note that varies. Republican members of the Senate Intelligence Committee have come to the defensive, Senator Ber and have defended the work of our committee. It's sort of an odd thing to see one chairman of one centre

essentially criticizing the chairman of the committee in making an argument that a witness to Lee called should ignore or plead the fifth. So there's some more news about the prospect of Don Jr testifying in that is, even though lots of people say they shouldn't show up. I think some people said he would be a fool to show up and he said it was unfair and his father, the President said he shouldn't There appears to have been some accommodation reached what's out about it, if this source can be believe, there's a report that a source close to Trump Junior says a presence, eldest son and again this is a report secondhand from a source close to trumped junior. With all due caveats, it is true. It's kind of disturbing that statement is that down from Junior is quoting

but a bleak appreciative to the members that went too bad for him and he will return the favour. Come the twenty twenty campaign, they get. Your carefullest hey, I don't know, that's donging. Your said another a miscarriage rotation, but if that's hold true and that's how donging your felt about it, that's an awfully close to a quid pro quo and seem appropriate at all, and I think a the jockeying posturing over down from junior coming back to testify when you had a bipartisan basis and bipartisan support for issuing subpoena they submit it should be frowned upon, so something else has been. The news does in the last couple of days is something that is not completely unexpected or shocking, but in some ways you know arguably, is is disappear, William BAR the Attorney General United States has appointed John Durham who's, the sitting United Attorney in Connecticut, to look at investigate

the origins of the camera children's investigation with respect to russian meddling in the twenty sixteen campaign, so not shocking that that has happened because, as has been inveighing about it for a long time been bar used this phrase that after the FBI director Chris Ray. disavowed, and that is was our spying done on the Trump campaign wanting it's odd about. It is that's what I thought. A lot of people thought. The inspector general at the Department of Justice was already looking at and seems to be the better way to take. A look at these issues are the origins of that investigation and I think, that's been under way for a period of time, a typically the inspector general does. A very thorough report explains all his findings and comes to

really sober conclusions about it. So was not clear given what we know so far why there has to be at another person who is not in the category of inspector general, but rather United, attorney, whose principal job is to bring indictments why that was necessary at this time. As I said before, people do things. An investigation, so be it, but the problem with a lot of these things, including the red coming out of the White House in the rhetoric coming at the mouth of the President himself in a lot of his supporters, that said seem like these things are not good faith investigations, but rather retaliatory attempts against rivals or non political political career, investigators and prosecutors, who are simply doing their job and to punish them in some way to have a chilling effect on future investigations and that are unfit faith. I think that undermines in corrodes people's belief in the rule of law to extent

allow. This is being propounded by and put forward by political voices who think they should be held to pay. For anyone who have the temerity to investigate a president and his associates or the campaign. Even though there was all sorts of smoke undeniable smoke much is laid out in volume? One of the Mulder report? That's really too bad. So that's! negative side on the positive side, I know John Durham, mostly by reputation. He is not a political figure. He became the Senate, confirmed united to turning the District of Connecticut Use Attorney's office. He has been a career prosecutor for about thirty five years. He has served obviously when the republican President's and democratic presence in more than that separate from. I think his brain notable were a prosecuting organised crime and the full gamut of cases that you get in use attorney's office. He has been called upon by administrations of both parties to look at sensitive things, including by the train General Eric holder and Attorney General Michael

crazy to investigate various aspects of allegations of abuse by CIA officers, who are engaged in some people call torture. Some people call enhance interrogation and also the CIA is destruction of tapes that documented some of those enhance interrogation techniques If memory serves his work on those investigations in the wreck. nations that he made and recommendations that he did not make were, I think, well received and consider to be professional and a political. So this is a person who is getting a in some ways: kind of sketchy, insensitive assignment, particularly in the current political climate, but he is

kind of thing before and he's been trusted by attorneys general and appointed by presidents of both parties? So- and I do have confidence that, if there's nothing to see here, he will say that my view is when you make a decision to appoint a US attorney to do something and look at something when the principal thing that that person does just like a special counsel is to see if a crime was committed or not committed. That sounds like something more than just a generalized review, especially given all the debate over. You know whether people like special counsel's or attorneys should be issuing reports when you talk about something being a review to see. If you know what ethical rules were violated or if prudential rules were violated, that's usually not something that you It has been a lot of talk, especially from people who are lawyers for the presidency, where's the president that prosecutors have a binary choice in John Durham is a prosecutor. You bring a criminal case or you don't bring a criminal

as you all know, what this thing is going to yield to the extent that than your times reporting is corrected through some kind of review happening. That would suggest that there will be some kind of report being made public in the future. But I dont know under what regulation statute guideline we would be able to receive such a thing is that the power of her laugh or plant bridge? I love you, shall I thought her every week. My question is with all this back and forth over appeal at an eternal sweetheart tax returns. Just worry is that some aid that proper mauler would have had access to as part of his collision with Russia, investigation bake for much by budgetary requested, so there's a lot of discussion for a long time now that trumps tax returns that dates back to before the election, where there was a raging debate about whether or not the candidate should, as everyone has done, it was a major party candidate since Richard Nixon disk

do some years of tax returns, so the public could know what their finances were and various other bits of information about the person who might end up leaving the country. I think Nixon said something like Nixon recall. It was Nixon just had something like. I think the public should have access to my tax returns to learn what The president is a crook so with respective Mahler? I think there is a lot regulation. I might have joined the speculation during the course of the investigation before concluded that he probably would have sought a court order. You can contact return to space on a subpoena or an informal recur,

you have to get a court order. We did it on a fairly routine basis when it was appropriate to do so in criminal investigations at I ever saw in the southern district and Bob Mahler, whose acting essentially is a. U S attorney those title. A special council would have had the same ability to get the tax returns. We don't know if he ever did that maybe never bothered to do it. Maybe didn't think I was part of his investigation, which was focused mostly on conspiracy and also obstruction, and not so much. It seemed at least with aspect to his own investigation, separate and once he may have for spun off to other offices when other fourteen of those, but with his back to his own may be thought he didn't need to have access to those financial documents because he wasn't pursuing a certain kind of finance investigation, so I have no indication that he saw them or that he got them or maybe he sought them and nothing and up happening with that. But there is also reason the possibility that either in connection

would beginning an investigation that he later spun off or one of those other offices to whom an investigation was bought off in the course of their doing a financial investigation where tax information might be more appropriate to further the inquiry that they have been obtained. You could be cynical enough to think well that happened. That would be such a sensational thing that it would have leaked, but there's lots and lots of stuff that happened in the mother investigation that did not leak so that naturally leads to discussion of of what other places trumps tax returns can go in there and there a number of those places. So, as I mentioned anywhere, they use attorneys offices. I include the southern district of New York if they think it's relevant, central to one of their ongoing increase. They can get a court order for the tax returns does also, of course, the ongoing standoff between the House Ways and Means committee chairmen kneel and the administration, the IRA's in particular over whether not that committee can see the press.

tax returns. As I have said, on the show before an end Milgram, and I have discussed with like the law, not really clear in its face that the tax returns shall be provided to the committee and their political arguments to make and, as I have said, I think it would have been better for Neil, to cite some of those other better reasons, not just the plain language to the statute, so that people have faith even more than they have now that those tax returns are being sought for property purpose, but the laws, the law and I dont see at least nothing alot of experts agree with this house on a good faith basis. The tax returns can be withheld. So that's the federal tax returns. Their sort of news now coming from the state of New York, where I live with respect to a particular bit of legislation, has been passed yet

But some state senators have suggested they have enough votes to pass a law that would allow the commissioner of the New York State Department of Taxation and finance, which is basically the state equivalent of the IRS to release state tax returns requested by a leader of any one of three congressional committees, including ways and means for any quote, specified and legitimate legislative purpose. So the state tax returns, which mirror in some ways federal tax return and can provide a lot of the same information all of it, but a lot of it may be in the hands of Germany long before the federal tax returns are so those are various ways in which the tax returns might still come into play in and finally may have read. The various states are making it a condition of being put on the ballot in their state for the twenty twenty presidential election, the release of some number of tax returns, and I can also predict that there will be a discussion about a federal law that requires a major presidential candidates to disclose or tax returns in order to run for office. That's one of the recommendations of the democracy taskforce than a culture with Governor Christie, Todd women, but you ve heard about already,

lots of news about tax returns. Lots of people angling for them, but notwithstanding within Europe, state legislature, is doing to be helpful to the House Committee and the federal system. There's another wrinkle. as well as chairman kneel and his staff, presumably are doing their own legal and strategic analysis and there's a report. That's it Es Sherman. You may not actually request from the New York State tax authorities those documents, because it might hurt his ability to get the full tax returns. The federal tax returns going back six years from the IRA Lots of other skirmishes and issues relating to obtaining financial records relating to jog trot this organisation, and I talk a bit more about that a tune bonus available to Cathay insiders to become a cafe insider sign up a cat. They D come slashed inside my guest this week is Valerie Jared President Obama's law. serving Signor adviser, we speak about growing up overseas, overcoming shyness and handling responsibility. That comes

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to the West Wing and the path forward? Fascinating, look at your life, all parts of your life growing up, and also your time, the Obama administration I can gradually. also for Europe but your allowing you to have a picture on the front line, My guy said no pre. We can't we well, you know what face for radio and podcast bless you under the back, so I feel like that's an accomplishment that I was unable to achieve. I won't take up a lot of things so past the present and the future great, which means we can talk about everything. So you, you up in Chicago, but you were not born in the United States of America. Like me, I was born India. Where were you born was born in Shiraz, IRAN and the MID fifties how that come about? Well, my dad was a physician, was just leaving the army in looking for a job at an academic teaching institution in the country, and it could find a job equivalent. What his white counterparts are receiving as they left the military,

and so he and my mom were adventure. Some spirits and not afraid of taking chances and sellers began, exploring options outside of the United States and he was offered a job but being shimmer that a farmer pathology as well as help to start a brand new hospital in the city of Shiraz, IRAN and point, obviously the United States had far better diplomatic relations with IRAN and they have today. In fact, their department of Health is very interesting. in bringing physicians together around the world to work with the iranian doctors to share best practices back and forth, and my father thought that be ended. Sting opportunity and so off here my mom went and I was- second baby born in the hospital, a practice of some other get first, and so after five years and to think about heading back to Chicago and he was offered one, your fellow, in London, so he took it and evident carpets. He gave a paper The dean of Universal Chicago Medical Center was at the conference and offered him a job

MRS Fraga, where my mom was from Chicago, and that was that yeah and so the lesson for me in them and that they lived was sometimes the shortest distance story. Wanna go. He got me going to take August when around so you tell a story, that's unexpected but why it is your parents decide to bring the family back the United States from IRAN round the time Europe. Details, that's for sure, so a few things were going out of that time. One IRAN was very much of the caste system, and so the people who were helping it home, for example, were considered in IRAN. Servants and expected to be treated very poorly and so one day my mom walked in the house, and my nurse by its Roy. I hadn't thing. Who knows what that I didn't like and I hold off. He kicked her heart and his the reserve that yeah you really hard and my mom. of course came in. I grab me in some What in the world's going on and Seroyer said, it's fine

and my mom was really worried about that. What kind of a message is that sending to a five year old that you can kick in adult willingly? At the same time as it, my parents are trying to explain to me that I was black We were living in the city, where there were any other black people and my family ate- was in Chicago and she miss them and she my dad like how we going to raise this child. I appreciate her black identity when she's living on the other side of the world, combination of fearing that I was falling into the culture there, as well as its desire to instil in me a sense of identity and attachment to the african american community really will part of the decision to Joe my parents back my mom, I think, was very homesick for cargo. My dad had thought dunno Chicago Sensitive is residency there and they need a moving around the corner. From my grandmother how many people have you kicked since the edge of her? I can't

Actually I've made didn't take any member Congress. Oh boy did I want to know about what I had to learn as yet to resist the temptation to. You must have a great many of you times. Nor do I wasn't cancer. A kick from. I was afraid he would kick me back set out in a crime and in the air, I believe that, right that learning restrained was a big part of how I was raised. Do you have a memory as a child moving from IRAN Chicago and we upset about that. Or do you welcome it? I was very upset about it. I was upset about leaving Shiraz to move to London first place and we live there for a year and its really, where my shyness began my memory of Shiraz ass, it was I deal I I was joking with my mom or, as I can see and sunny everyday, just like you know it snowed sometimes in IRAN has ignored November that so It was what I knew just as without children once when, what's familiar you crave and so going to London was a disruptive for me and I kind of withdrew.

Little bit it. Never we got back to Chicago it's for them. They're going home. For me, I'm going to a foreign country and it was a thing about it was familiar. I end by then I had developed a british acts and, after In a year in great Britain, I spoke three languages and I was from a country that nobody in my public school in our neighbourhood, it ever heard of an ice get beat up all the time and my younger cousin will have to come to my rescued tat, embarrassing, I ll. the british accident like week. Why stop thinking Farsi wig too? and I never like to talk about where I was from the first twenty years of my life. Nobody had ever heard twenty two and I know it ever heard- the wrong and then, after the hostage crisis, where president harder everybody had heard of it, and our relationship with IRAN is degraded since then, and so it was always like a source of what I really want to explain them. What I've taken out ten minutes tell you about, which is why I was born there. Have you remember: we went back frequently integration.

from high school night, so nineteen, seventy four was last him back in not during the about the presence of his owner. You have to use your kicking skills problem. We I didn't when my parents went back, I think the last time they were there was in the late nineties. Again the adventure some spirits. I would ask them not to go on a course. They wanted to cutting curious, and so they take up so then you grow up in Chicago and you had a successful academic career. You went all your great schools. You became a lawyer. These are practising law, Even much like it now, I did, and I very much like I guess I'll have to get it out alive. You can always leave NGO Become, were the top advisers to a future president at least eight sets a good product finally- and I known at the time that I left you mention a couple of things now. You said which I want to get into your shyness.

don't seem right now, I'm not. I used to be incredibly deadly shy, which another get into here, because I'm interviewing you and then you overcome these things. It's an odd thing for someone who growing up was very shy to get above, and politics have happened. Had you square those things were so painfully shy to the point where at an elephant it has freed, I was called on twice my firstly of law school, because my maid name is Bowman and I didn't think they'd be a second day. I was just mortified, and I just went blank and he did Mccord? I hated everything that involved me having to speak in front of more than three or four people and happened was. I was so boy detours at my law, firm and in a bad marriage, and my at a very good friend who had worked for a mere hurled Washington, the first african american mayor, Chicago left his firm gone to work for the mayor and was heading back to his room. He said why don't you consider public service you'll feel like you're part of something more important than yourself and something about that

resonated with me and I had not done doors. We hold Washington, so I loved his progressive agenda and I took leap of faith and then several years later, Mayor Daily was elected and I've been promoted a couple times ended up being the commissioner planting development. No one told me when I took their job. I was gonna be required to speak and purple and no somehow Mozilla membership, but I guess it was. But I was I tried to fire my press, secretaries illegal. What do I need? You form never talk to the press and he's a given couple weeks see whether you still want to fire me workforce I held on them for dear life once I realized that an in part of the job was being out we're facing. And explaining to the public. The administration was trying to do and time I had to give a speech. I Amber riding on a new card. The seven bullet points I wanted to make- and I was speaking in front of about forty people terrified and I was so nervous. I started to perspire, and so the ink from my no cart likes me

Oliver my hand, I looked out my hand is covered in blue egg, and I can't do anything on the paper and I get there and I might gosh, and so somehow I survived it right. And then I had to do it again and I survived it. Am I had to keep bring myself in what was a very uncomfortable zone. Cosette was the nature of the job in a way, Finally, I can you'd out, I'm the first time there was a newspaper article that was critical of me. I went you're dealing, look look. I can't believe what they said about me in the newspaper. Will you know what he said? Well, I'm in their every single day. What are you doing complaining to me everything you said, which was a good lesson. He says, if you don't like it, gotta the editorial board and defend yourself and me and our administration metaphorical kick. It was a real swift kick, and so I let you know what your right. Let me go pick myself up. I got that press secretary almost fired and off we want- and I don't know your experience When I talk about you back

it took us he's wearing it twenty years for me to get over the shyness- and I can't even point when it happened. Aims that with each the challenge was scary. Yet I wrote in the book the first time I had to speak in the issuing of the White House peril, again, hesitant to do it fair, like oh, my gosh. How can I speak from here on the North law of the White House and every time have these new experiences were terrified and they will be over and you don't fall flat on your face, its exhilarating right and I began to enjoy the exhilaration, which helped me overcome the fear, so would start to public speaking, although one quick store them. My parents basically forced me as a freshman in high school. to join this speech to make our second. Never so I was deadly afraid. As a fourteen year old, getting for five or six students and apparent judge, your teacher judge and thought I was gonna die and it had the same experience you you get through it and it's not so bad and then actually became

Minister, I became the sort of good at it and began to really well. You might think if you then engage in public speaking for four years and for audiences and sometimes or be larger and asserted, do fairly well, that that overcomes Russia, as it did no such thing, I learned how to perform and firm an audience here without getting I'm acting and remain deftly afraid when talking about a party. Yes, even though I can get up onstage and some, as you know, a lot of people and when and be the best speaker in the competition and immediately get off the stage day, junior deadly afraid again and shy in a somewhat yo stranger, try talking you or God forbid, a girl. I went immediately into my shall it took a long time to become less shy in regular, like not just, we are wondering why few perform my mom said to me early Irish. He said to me

cause you're nervous, doesn't mean other people have to know what you can actually hide it and pretend- and that was kind of empowering to me and I to your point about parties I would go to parts of my parents sit next to my mom and she would say to me the protocols you have to talk to the person on the other side of you, and I would say why. Why can I just do you I would blush and for people who are shy, the absolute understand what I'm talking about. It is a visceral, absolutely physical, physiological feeling and over sixty years, learn. I could overcome it. Didn't you now enjoy. No, I M actually not shy, but you still shy, I don't think so shy anymore, not social, observe shining more, but it doesn't mean that I love going parties as israeli in talking to a thousand people. I like this, meet him, who is it

Working for the first black blackmail Chicago, and what does that mean for the city for you, because you mentioned your parents, concern about your own identity and being aware of your own identity, describe what that was like growing, in Chicago. I really didn't have much interest in politics. I knew of the mayor was, but it didn't speak to me and even Shea we had a woman who was a mere two. None of it really resonated with me hurled. Washington's progressive campaign touched every quarter of the city and I felt for the first. I'm curious about how the city works, and so, while he was, may I start reading the newspaper on the city pages where you could find? I was gonna politics. I learned from my old man was how the city council deliberated. What kinds of issues came before the city Council start actually. Looking at the budget of the city to see what all these different departments did em it's because I felt that it represented May in a way that I haven't felt previously

because I loved him and he had this figure the life personality. He never use words that were fewer than three. So walls and put them together in a really unusual way. That made you think, a lab and he was well read any was curious and he was a very astute politician when you his presence knew of the most important person in the world. He had the ability Looking you right in the heart to be a part. And I join in his second term, so already had one old term to watch how he did it yes and then to walk through City Hall and see people who I had looked at as like so pretty sightings, who were part of his administration was just extraordinary for me and I, what had brought out at me as the sense that we all should feel about that about the people who represent us. The way I felt about her Washington and the fact that he was black and their people.

A cargo African Americans had not traditionally had a seat at the table of power made me feel like. I was a part of something that was reflective. More of my. It entity in the previous measures had been, but then you came work for mayor daily? I stay vs, I'm more daily was selected, distribute our way of asking. It was a different. Yes at first it was The people with whom I had worked for two by the time that mere daily took office, many of them left most of them laughed and a fuel them with whom I was very close, really resented me for staying one of my closest colleague, said: you're gonna be compromised. You can't be a part of this administration if you truly believed him mayor dailies vision, inclusion, but I did have one very good friend- you knew mayor daily well, when he got married and mere daily with states attorney? He sat me at the table with that stays. Adjourn member was sent over the time. Why is it that we will have? I wanna be with my friends negroes that guy

and be mayor when they get to know him and he said to me Valerie, you love your job. What? She just stick around and see see whether his true to the ideals that you believe him and what I think I'm gonna, who knows kind of mere merit daily would have been like had hurled. Washington never been mayor, but I think hurled. Washington put the city on a trajectory of inclusion, the mere jelly supported as they are so different people I grew to respect mayor daily and he gave me a platform to work on the issues that I cared much about, including focusing in the neighborhood some revitalizing parts of Chicago that had been disinvestment and he was completely behind and the other thing that he did, that I really respected? Is it the first? action, even when it may the words that were predominantly black and he went about the business. Every Saturday he'd go out to different Lord and he started in the words of people, did not vote for him because he read

nice. It is a public service, you have to own people's trust and that he ended up. You know winning the vast majority of the city and in each successive election, and I think that's because he may people Pritchett the fact that he was there for them to a wooden, interesting concept, to expand your base and try to robes and all the people out there had so fascinating of animated people. Think you do that as opposed to double down an under based. I asked you about Chicago politics, effort for the purposes of this question, but soon we're not recording OSHA, ok or how Eddie is Chicago politics. This is this is what I would observe to use funny frame the question that way, because for reasons I dont really remember. My mother took me to work my first day working at City Hall and when she dropped me- France. She looked at me and she said I can't believe I pay all that tuition. And you do not do this with your life-

I wish you really she of my dad we're just in other love. The fact that I was in this big fancy, love firm. I had an office with a view of Lake Michigan from seventy nine floor of a high rise, town and I was the first lawyer, my family, and all that I just I saw a difference between service and politics and I focused on the service. and I love the politics other people now. While I was there, and certainly before I got there, the aldermen of sugar though so many of them were in Diana can't even count as a mere daily during his time in office appointed the majority of the city council. So there are a number of them, went to prison, others, laughter, departed or passed away, but There was a level of corruption that I found discordant with service as like wolves. If you doing that than it's about you, it's not about this, and fortunately for me, I had a group of both bosses and meant

who were not at all corrupt and judge minor? Who is the Corporation Council when I came in had a reputation in the city for being a huge progressive? when colouring well within the lines in the straight and narrow, and so I very comfortable working for him and his successor was exact same way. My experience with the mayor because they were not cropped either tat there was not an exception, can clearly there was when your mother dropped you off and she had that reaction was based. I was it was cause she thought you'd seen. I leave you in its corrupt and you'll, be corrupted a its beneath you be its corrupt, see you be corruptible. Therefore, you won't thrive here. Does my parents taught me to color while within the lines- and so she thought how are you going to survive in this environment that so rough and tumble, where so many alderman do get indicted what I did and what I always insisted that the teams that I formed do is women Where that you are there in service, and you just

you do your job and you do it well and you'd insulate yourself from miss MC ass. Going around you he'll be fine. Let me ask the different way than how tough Chicago politics and people will say emitted about. You and who some people might say. Well, you maybe they're all soft, but then the credential that they will point to is ill say. Well, she comes from Jakarta, X, which is supposedly animated supposed to signal some kind of toughness and ok leaving it yeah yeah. I hear you go muttering, look or Mccormick crush, but your politics is not being bag is allowing say and try and there's a lot of tough stuff that goes on and its round. There are humbler blows below the belt. That might not be correct, but should I is known for very rough and tumble public? Is that how did you all that, and what did you learn that help you later well what I enjoyed about local government in Chicago- and I think this applies

government everywhere is it. It is proximate to the people that you are there to serve. So if I went to the grocery store, people would come up to me. The grocery store and lobby me about something or complain of something I used to get people to slip, notes under my door or gave him daughter, which I thought was off limits. But what it taught me about. services. It is twenty four seven m, it is hard and the is our job as public servants to each state on the confidence of the people that we are there to serve? so I went into it not thinking about the fact that in autumn, and might embarrass me at a hearing or that the newspaper might say something critical about me. I went into thinking that I was there to use whatever skills I had to try to improve the lives of people who had not been represented at the table, because I knew what it felt like when I thought of government is not reference they may and so in the mayor's off. As I tell a story about this guard, who would call all time and all I knew as whoever he was calling me to see was gonna have smoke coming out of their ears because just think how?

angry, you have to be to show up in the mayor's office media gonna babysitter. He took time off work, you couldn't get the calls return and they would just come in furious, and I really, joy going out there improving to them that we were better than they thought government would be and that I could their problems, I wanted it is a challenge and they were always times where, like five different departments were disagreeing with one another, and it was my job to bring them together and say: hey you all. We have to do better by this person, excited just thinking about. I mean I've doing that, and so it made the payment goes, that wherever you're serving there's always some pain, but you have to learn items They're pain him and you can do it if you're there for a purpose behind yourself development. You learn how to play horrible I know I learn how to get things done without compromising either mine equity or my core values. I found that to be the challenge and it's like no, I'm not goin to do it

Why I'm gonna? Do it this way and usually what it involved was bringing People are using our good offices and talking to one another, and I found that when you get people together, even if they disagree, if you just to them long enough and they feel that they can trust you and that you are actually listening to them. I learned to be a very good listener that you can figure out the art of the possible as one of the things that frustrated me so much about Washington, because I thought foolish that the skills that I learned and local government in Chicago and the Brok Obama learned as a junior state senator where he could go and get videotaping apple, interrogations passed by a republican House and Senate those skills. I thought would come in handy in Washington because we're both really good at like listening to the side and saint okay I'm not gonna, let perfectly the enemy, the good I'm gonna meet you halfway and I'm gonna Figaro. What do you need if there were any sort of a compromise is really what I think made Chicago work for me, and

None of that in washington- and I find that deeply profoundly disturbing and frustrating, but sorry about your path to Washington, in so by northern alot of people know and describing the book in greater detail how you came to know Michel in Morocco, sure so after practising law for four years in the Cooperation Council, the City Loan Apartment Mayor daily promoted, made a deputy chief of staff and One of my jobs there was to help recruit people to join our office with his chiefest out the cooperation council. The time Susan sure sent me rest across the top said. Brilliant young lawyer has no interest in being in a big corporate law. Firm would like to explore public service and since I go through that same experience with a big law firm, I thought just the kind of person I wanna meet. And so Michel Robinson and ninety ninety one walked into my office tall. Simply trust no make up here but looks me right in the face shakes my hand, never mention Princeton Undergrad, Harvard laws gonna. She told her

and we all know now, it's like the quintessential american story grown up on the south side. Parents working class hadn't been the college we Furthermore, for she and her brother- and I just felt and offered her job on the spot to know any thirty that offer that job, I'm after the job few days later act I cleared with my boss, a civil war, the job, and she said with a bad news. Saying, like lunches of my fancy, thinks it's a dreadful idea, and I said why is that she said well, he started his there is a community organizer applicants. Who is he? she's, like his name, is Barack Obama. I'd heard of him because of his work as community organizer, and also being the first black head of larvae at Harvard and she said yeah he's worried about me going right from the law firm into a political environment. You at least had for years of a buffer to prepare you for it. I'd be going right in what you have dinner with us, and I said yes to the three of you wanted. The three of us had dinner sitting across the table from the two of them and keep a minor engaged. But what was clear?

He was not just that they loved each other. They were listening to one another. You could feel the respect Emma they were approaching this decision as a team and support said to me, will you know why was it any of his business which He's gonna do with her career and I would say in response that having now known them for twenty eight years in areas a race and major decision in his life is never made one without her at the table, that's how they they were you. It seems well yeah That's true phobia us exactly. I was embraced into that until three Sumter there's something to talk about her little fast forward. A little bit so Barack Obama becomes a senator persist, better than a United Centre had lost along the way by the way? A yes? She lacking shall we say Sorivellos? Yes, he did. Why was a bad about their campaign? number things he didn't have any major endorses. Who were waiting for him when he first rather was an open seed. So that's obviously a lot easier. So, but this time he was

trying to unseat a popular income and Bobby rise. She'd been there forbid number the House River that he was a member of the house will represent a still is a member of the House of Representatives, and I think we- and I put myself in that to underestimated how hard it is to unseating incumbent fatigue. without any validated is everybody? needs to validate or an Chicago's like in it who want some, nobody said. But if the same kind of I don't know you who do. I know that does know you that's willing to go to bat for you and he didn't really have that and he didn't have a ward organization or any sort of a political operation that could run the kind of money that he needed to make his presence, and so we must abandon was raging. That was his fault in losing well under estimating the opposition, I suppose was his fault, but I think losing was point because it teaches you some right is important. So then you once for the Senate, And over my objection and his voice, we both had a broncho talk about and always used always listen to this murder women where he didn't

but I will say we orchestrated branch to talk him out of it. Why but it was too soon he had just lost a Bobby Russian. I thought if you can't, when you're district arrogant when the whole state wondered how he was gonna raise money? I wondered if he lost so quickly than with that in this political career and at one time and during the punch you looked at many said you chamber these things you're, afraid of. If I'm not afraid. Why are you afraid- and he said you I can raise the money you should share. My finance committee enamel solve that problem, so so much for that arguments The very thing was important because his message to me was right: it's like you have to be willing to risk failure and the word this guy happens, you're not gonna, where we are certainly not gonna win. If you don't run and he had corrected for some other people, in the first rays, he'd been down state and the folks, the farmer from Southern Illinois knew he cared about their issues. He took time to listen to them. He had, the leader of the Senate endorse them

behind him. That was important in my lap, pointing out a better organisation, and he any really thought he could appeal state because he knew the state of Illinois. He traveled it mightily. before he ever ran, but also new himself. To my question always about politicians and politics is what degree of self confidence there is a pressing need to have to do that thing. Alot. You have to have some confidence in you to have a tough skin and you have to be resilient and you have to, recognise that you have to earn people's trust and you can't you expect them to hand it to you, on a silver platter. We lost the race in New Hampshire, just a fast forward. A little bit I remember that night, thought we were gonna win. He didn't have a concession speech getting into the elevator with he and Michelle Obama like within

half an hour after learning he lost, and I mean he said to her. It shouldn't be too easy. I have turned it during the campaign when he was the underdog. Everyone thought reclaimed would be the nominee back in two thousand eight to seventy does need something special was happening. That's actually not an opinion, that's a fact. It is act, and so people refer that now, because one thing about twenty twenty and their moments with particular candidates- and it looks like maybe something specials happy about defining special or know what that means. But it's a thing in the way some people would say in doing the Reagan. Campaigns of special is happening. If you on the other side of the Isle, did you appreciate something special, happening and if so, when. First always go back to the speech you gave in two thousand and four at the convention, and that was a wonderful way of him introducing himself on the world stage before he was running for president and I think

the speech when I was sitting in in an area that night listening to him, but this is a message that can resonate with this country. Sure enough. to that he was really popular. As a junior senator to funding and be present and support. Many of his colleagues anywhere but audacity of hope was getting allow attraction, so I always believed he could win when I thought he would win was after the IRA Caucasus. That night, I thought with you can win. Iowa state. That's like vastly predominantly white, it's the gauntlet. Does retail politics here, based on what you might be a living for people and you better give those four people you're all in and having watch him do that over the course of the year nearly a year since he announced, I thought you could take this all the way women

happens in you and other people high up in the campaign and close to the candidate, think wow? This is special and you can win. How does that change you? If it all in how you work, having keep reminds us a few days later. He loses New Hampshire. I was pretty sure he was like a moment in time, but but what shouldn't happen. Is it you begin to feel entitled and that's why he said, it shouldn't be too easy and if you think about his new Hampshire speech, that's where, yes, we can came out of it. Was like yeah, nobody I can do this and that which is part of their cautionary tale. I offered to people right now when they say who's spiry me in this race- and I say at this point in time RO bombers, forest race in two thousand and seven he down by about twenty points and Hillary Clinton was inevitable candidate. Is

early? Let's give these people a chance to show us who live. So, let's get bad Barack Obama, Windsor presidency in two thousand eight. He is worn it as the present our states and you come to work at the White House You talk about this in the book, but do you have an immediate reaction to the s I want to do that? Did you think about doing other things? you're thinking in deciding to go. Take a position on the White House all right before I he won. Senator Durban approach me my home state, Somebody from live an enormous, my respect, and he said if he will and might you wanna succeed him in the Senate an initial I said no, and then we were sitting on the Dias together to dinner, that lasted about five hours and by the end of it. He had me at least considering and- and I talked it over with the obamas- prison Obama in it. That point after the election, a kind of humor me for a minute to say what you like to think about you think about it and then, by the time

I think, as a Sunday YA, think, MRS them after the election. He said, that's enough about that. I think is come here The white house- and he said I know the Senate and I You and I know what I want to do in the White House and I know the role I want you to play- com me and so when presently, the United States, who happens to be like yours oh brother, who you love, dearly ass. You do something you do it with Germany worries about how that would go, dear, given that you are not the a typical aid, for a long time you know believe the first lady for a long time and uranium and friendly and had in a longstanding personal relationship. Does that make you think you could be a greater assistance? Or did you worry that that might get in the way in some way because of the feelings of other staffers. I know that some of that happening even then no drama Obama, there's always a little bedroom, even if it's not intended hangin navigate those things. So the answer is yes to Allah. The above. and I had had experiences in the rough and tumble mayors office in Chicago too

what happens when you might have the mayor's support, but of other people. Do not know surely wish you well, it can be hard to, and so we talk, through, which is one of the many things I respect animals he's like. Let's talk about what your misgivings are, and he said, look the role. I want you to play heading up. governmental, ferris and public engagement These are the skills and the strength that you have from the years it is spent. in city government, running the department planning and development sharing the border, the Chicago Transit Authority, he said your coming in at a time when the economy is in a free fall and ran your own business, where the ceo of accompanying served on all these corporate board seafarers airplane you bring. an unusual skill set to the table, and I want people there who I know and trust and who also you're not looking for your next job early enough. For me, you want to make sure I do the best job as president than I can possibly do and you'll be honest with me. I was a little hesitant.

don't worry we'll run. The manual was not that thrilled about it and he actually tried to get me to be set at our language recovery in the Senate. Gosh you. I really want to come in answer to Indonesia. in what I ve been very close, a supportive of his campaigns. I knew him well tried to get him to endorse brought about when he was running in the primary. So I was alternative and were Brok Obama's is look. We're gonna make this work when the tea get to know you they will see that you are not the person the goes and undercuts them we have? As you know, when you over for dinner, you try to relegate issues, will see the person that you are, that will help make the team better, and so that's what I tried to do. Did you find, even at the highest level, there were people who had thrown personalities and distinguish careers that come and work in the White House and they're afraid telling the truth to the present, of course, everybody's afraid, or I will say afraid, every one

any organization, is intimidated by the people at the top and when you the president of the United States and the leader The faint world- that's magnified exponentially, of course, something is intimidating. You walk in the first time I walked in the oval office are set, day, their January twenty first, I looking around at the zoo, really pretty ceiling I gotta go. I couldn't take my eyes off the sea, its distracting and you have to like ok, I'm here you a job, but one of his managements francs, I think, was to try to empower people to speak up, not because, their ideas were more important than somebody else's, but that he would make a better decision if he had the benefit of all ideas. and I had noticed early on that some of them these the women were shrinking about. I think everybody started again. We cannot bring your baggage to the table with you. What happened to you in your last job, and because we were in the middle of the worst economic crisis since the great depression they were, as a lotta emotion flowing early on, and he said to the group

Might it over invite all the senior women are of a dinner? He said. Look. I need you to fight for your ideas and it's not about you it's about what we can do if I am better informed and we had very elaborate processes in place for vetting ideas and policy recommendations before came to him and he said I want you to way in an enormous and everybody was working and issue come in the meeting. So he could hear from our voices, One time I remember where we were about to me a very important decision and present Obama little Since everybody on board, we said yes, and he said: does everyone in your teams think this is the right thing to do? and one person said why do about t member who doesn't support this, and he said well where's that person and we waited ten minutes for their poor soul to run over from the older. Negative office building, and he said I want to hear what you have to say. Ultimately, he didn't follow that person's advice he went with the rest of us. but imagine the message that that sense, when you say I

cannot make a decision without hearing the descent, and in things, the junior most person on the backbone she can read and room like there's nobody's business and he could just see a united people start to bounce up a little, but there there because you're the leader, the FIFA world in there and there actually friend, screw with you. If you disagreed with Morocco by more than you got what I call a full of our aid, leaner unequal. Tell me why I'm curious help me understand before a judge. Never never. If anything, he would say to people who were not building up speak up cause, I'm better if you're speaking, look. I saw this just as your journey, not leader of the leader world much more recommendation. I should have known this long before I took the home of that job, but a member in this affair Obama. I think it's a simple technique: the good leaders use in meetings and having discussions, I thought for efficiency. If I had a thought about how to make a decision

called and unify was its people, and I would say no in order to cut through a lot of the nonsense and the red tape. Here's what I'm thinking his miser preliminary you, but I a complete open mind and I always did let's go around the rumours. That was a huge error. If people know where the boss is going before the discussion chain everything everything you keep your mouth shut and you have a poker face, Israel into question, and then you asked we wonder- and I remember times when I start changing my approach to this- that I would not say what, if you wasn't sure we do extra, why I'm gonna run the people have a different one of you and they would be fairly robust. and as soon as I said in the course of the deliberation and the discussion soon. As I said, I'm lean towards acts based on this russian. I wanna hear more from the why people and the wife who already we're back peddling, her views because that will maybe pre doesn't think I'm sorry never maybe I'm gonna be the wrong side. The decision, which is really really dangerous,

particularly when your position such as Europe and certainly the president's, but I would argue that even if you're running a small business, you want people to feel empowered and you have to We stand the power dynamic force. Will they think you're mark as you're the boss, so by the commission must be smarter, re wrong exactly, and I alone. No ike I've surrounded myself with people who are smarter than I am that's how I do better, but you have to give peace the right signals and get them comfortable speaking up so doing you have to be curious, which means you have to listen when they speak up I having a lot of people in positions of power actually think they have all the answers and they stop listening you have said, or others have said, Ruby both you and others have said that part of your job. There was to remind the president that he came there to do. Big things was having take them view and he's the best at it, but having people there to reinforce that when so much pressure was to do what was politically expedient,

knowing that it would take years for people to actually have the benefits of the affordable care activity, lies, meant you had to whether a unnecessary, diabolical thunderstorm from the Republicans talking about panels and all these other things and you to have the courage to say. I know that, but over the long term, this is what's best for the country and absorb a lot of pain in the short term and what forestry, me again was the willingness of the river. begins to not focus on the long term that you had better ability to tell President Obama he was wrong than other people because of the long standing relationship. Of course, that's that travel, longstanding relationship in the beginning, but as people gotten oh him, they appreciated the fact that he really did value had to say they act of some

pushing you and disagreeing with you. As you know, only refines your argument. You might not ultimately agree with them, but you wouldn't feel more strongly about your case if we ve looked at it from the other viewpoint, this may be in our question, then bourbon about this issue, and I let him a large office to my three deputies were close personal friends before they took their job. The number two percent and in the third is lifelong friend now, and I thought that was important because They could tell me what was what they might not come in for a lot of other people they would come to my office is that we will actually stupid. Don't do that? not agree with them, and they had. The of the office is best interests at heart, but they also want it to be truthful. A lot of other people, as you say, would necessarily be that way. You will present from come under some criticism for having, among other people advising him his own daughter and market Trump and shared Kirshner. Is there some arguing given the parallel and I've not related to the Obama than its different situation

but along the lines of what we ve been discussing. That a president, even someone like Donald Trump, if those are the people that he trusts in those the people who can be honest with him that he deserves their council in a way that they are able to give with a security clearance and having an actual position We have all you mix. If you things he said I was making a forgery of our who was to make it simpler and more direct analogy I believe elections have consequences and that the president has states is entitled to have whatever advisers he wants, but what he did to protect the country. is ensure that the people who are advising the president, our President Obama, didn't have even a hint of a sense that they had objectives and service. I think part of why I've sold all of my assets when I came in and invested in Treasury. followed, as did we all and went through the procedures for,

clearance and abided by whatever recommendations. The professional national security staff made to avoid even a hint of a conflict of interest. But if the ocean is simply, should you be able to surround herself with whichever advises you choose yeah, that's what Elections are all about thereabout. Whoever charge assembly, their own team. Do you think the doll drug has a real chance of winning reelection at depends on the american people? Would you think it's important to say that he does so happy? How can people? I leave a certain thing or galvanised work? Well, I think, if one happy about the last election and you are caught surprised by that, should have been a wake up. Call forty percent of eligible voters did not vote in two thousand and sixteen, if you didn't vote, hope We now you see over the last two years. What the council, whence is ever that our and this will like three states and lessons two thousand vote to the people who say what my vote doesn't really matter. Your vote sure does matter and

why the organizations worm chairing the borders call when we all vote and its non party because I'm trouble that in this country we have a culture that seems to taller people not voting in our democracy is only going to be as effective as we. The people demand let it be and if we abdicate, I promise you The special interest groups they earn abdicating there right. fighting for the status quo, and if we don't disrupt that, then, is it really Democracy, so I don't the need to scare people I feel like they should already be pretty scared. I believe your people to give me more and I'm gonna try to motivate them because again it's it's about more than just the Smiths selection, although I obviously care very deeply it's real about what builds a democracy in what are we teaching our young people? Is there smart stability as a part of a functioning society, they can't just sit on the sidelines and focus on their devices. They have to actually be a part of our society. What's the proper rule for an ex president remains very popular, Barack Obama in connection with the next election,

well, I think he's doing of his offering his advice and council to whomever Sport is an idea, deny me read, I can see them all by they pretty much a whole bunch of them have come through his office. In his is always open to them in a sense, it's been a part of the small cohort that is one to elections unusual in our country. Ever he has a lot to offer. and help inspire them in and give them council. So I think that his role for right now, They should all go out there and earn the trust for what makes them authentically capable of doing this and not beat up, each other for two reasons Emma while I'm actually not interested in what you think of the other person, I can figure out what I think of the other personnel are no. What are you gonna do for me and second, I dont want are. Ultimate nominee in the democratic field to be so bodied and beat up in the primary that a weakened that person going into the general because who ever comes out of the primary, I think them

I need a rally behind that doesn't mean we don't hold them accountable, but weak, and hold the litmus test of perfection Think sometimes you know that's what we do. We will say why you're not for this, then I can't supports laughing there. Either Greg I worry that it is beginning to, and I encourage and really take a deep breath. We can't just look for the person. That's corner, inspire us and think that their perfect they're all human rights. President Biden often used to sit on comparatively almighty compared to the alternative, would be. Obama win running away. If you run for president certainly the most popular woman in America. But you know what. As you well know your popular when you're not a threat to the base. I saw in the election when President Obama was first running for president, how first Michelle Obama was just you know, everybody loved turn

she was wonderful ass. She became more powerful and effective. On the campaign trail, she became a target cassettes. What we do you're fine, until you become a threat to power, and then they come after you fiercely. So she won't be running for president, but she will commit the rest of her life to service complete, since when they go low, we we go high. We still believe that absolutely and do you think that works in the current climate, where but he will have to go against our trump, who goes low, low, low low effectively. All the time I ever thought of you. We thought that principle now, because it's about values, it's about the fact that the child we are watching us. It's about that. We are role models for the next general And I do believe that this is still a country embraces what we have common and not polarizing, our differences must not to say under reserve the country. Obviously I'm not naive, but I think the

majority of Americans really do want. Somebody who brings us other who appeals to the goodness in us who said it was easy to go high. Let's not pretend it's easy and that's up. Let me that some He said to me once when President Obama was giving his first joint addressed to Congress in July and screamed out you line, why didn't he just call him on that? And, yes, you know Chris him outright there. Why? Because is giving a speech about the importance of the affordable care act, and so you have to have the discipline to stay true to. Why are there, I believe eyes important for president to not be thin skinned enough to think that this is about them. It's about, Sir, ass part of appreciating the importance of services knowing that to lead you have to be, and the kind of Roma who I want. Somebody who goes high, that doesn't

but you don't call somebody out when you see the ass, I'm not launch a card of article eleven a little, but not too much cared not do. What do I perceive the honest, be authentic, but the decent have some core values appreciate the fact that not just in this country, but people around the world, look at us as a beacon of hope, and if we don't, if we don't, that from the highest level. What kind of message we send me make any endorsement of a democratic handed before the nominations. Clinched, I don't know still, further its power, I can do it right here. Instead, could I club, I think it's too cool you surf I wouldn't even venture. That's like seeing her your favorite siblings. Now I think, holding my PA try and seeing how it goes over them several months. Even year is were. I am right now and also because look I want help with everybody, and I tell them all, I'm Talkin to Oliver and whom

was- will emerge through the house move towards impeachment of the present. Now that's up House I I am actually more focused on what can we do to galvanise his country to care about who the press As I am I'm more worried about the longer term engagement and getting people to appreciate their responsibility is citizenship. I leave it for the house to determine what they do it my correct, but you were the longest serving Whitehouse aid in history in history. Has that's called nuts the surprising to me because I left at eleven, fifty nine after they Obama's laughed and only consider services like staring at me like you have to go now button that says in and you seem to have survived it very well and you have a great added and you look younger than you did when you started. We all did you get. This is something that is an issue remember what other how'd you avoid burn out. I say about

White House jobs, unlike any other place, a crazy crucible in which to work. Your chiefs of staff last nine minutes, some people that refer to as a de facto chief of staff, Eurotunnel a lot at stake, and maybe some was more at stake, because you had a personal closeness to the to the present and the first lady had I held you, make it eight years old enough to appreciate it. the best job I would ever have enough experience to understand that you have build and mechanisms for resilience and replenishment so where there was a Sunday branches I had with my girlfriends and my cousins or dinners dinners with my family, surrounding myself with the best possible people I could on my team who people say Do you miss most? I missed the people collegiality and the sense of being in this, for the same reason was magical for me- as regards the book is finding my voice, my journey to the West Wing and the path forward.

relations dangle book than a gorilla your service to the country. Thank you Services- wealth, So, as I mentioned, I'm taking this on Wednesday morning. May fifteen twenty nineteen I fell in the show today by referring back, something that happens on this precise date. Twelve years ago they had a very impact on me- and I think, a lot of other folks five years ago, when I was a United States, Senate Judiciary Committee, staffer. and overseeing somewhat ironically in addressing into the firing of yours attorneys. Another politicization at the Justice Department, a bipartisan investigation that we did spring and summer of two thousand seven seven, which which am very proud I helped to organise a hearing. I may fifteenth. There was cheered by Senator Shimmer, my boss at the time and at that hearing the principal witness testifying before Congress was the former deputy trade General United States in the future at the director of the country. In that

call me in fairly surprising testimony that almost no one knew he was going to give he described what has become known famous hospital visit and that hospital visiting. have occurred a few years earlier on March, tenth of two thousand and four, and that day Jimmy We would be acting attorney general, because attorney General John Ashcroft had a severe cases, Peccary Titus and was hospitalized so Jim come in his capacity as acting attorney general. Advise the White House that he could no longer certify what was sort of known in common parlance as the presence terrorist surveillance programme. That was a programme that had to be reviewed every forty five days and at this point in consultation with people at the Office of legal counsel and others, The determination was made that in good conscience, it could not be recertified without significant changes. so on that same day, notwithstanding the acting attorney an old Jim Commies decision that he could not certify the programme or

certify the programme, the president's chief of staff at the time, Andy Card then White House Council, a border Gonzales, decide to make nighttime visit to the bedside returning Attorney General John Ashcroft, brought to us, I said, was suffering from severe pancreas Titus and was at the hospital with his wife and in a scene right out of the godfather, Jim Commie, rushed to the hospital called the FBI directorate time. Will you all know, is the special council rubber color and the intercepted the White House. it's only white ass chief of staff in the hospital room This sort of bizarre stand off as Jim coming bribes in the hearing at the hospital Ashcroft refused to recertified. The programme is well enough for these purposes. Jim come easy, acting attorney general. It's just were thinking about at this time when some hey you mention had become controversial figures when there is a concern about whether the constitution matters in certain decision maker,

whether the rule of law is in decline or not. It is possible to act on principle and possible to act on the basis of your good faith, view of the constant and even if it's going to anger, someone including the president or the present chief of staff or the President's council, and so that night, Jim and others cited that they would resign in protest. It President George Bush, proceeded without legal certification from the department. Here's your the remarkable part about that story. That is often overlooked. The next day after the stand off was March, eleventh two thousand and on that day, terrorists in Madrid killed one Ninety one people with train bombs in the worst terrorist attack since nine eleven and you would think then in a day like that, when there was a in a battle between a belief and what the constitutional allowed and the importance of having national security and protecting the country.

that the constitution might lose out, but you would be wrong because in the face of that day of death and destruction from terrorism. Jim call me and John Ashcroft and Robert Mother in law. Apps another dozen folks were prepared to step down from public life. Rather than give George Bush an illegal. tool in the war on terror and by Friday, the President back down and I remember, sitting at the judiciary hearing that day, behind senator humor and I saw centre lay he and Senator Spectre and Sinner Feingold, all of whose jaws basically dropped when they heard the real time telling- story and I've thought about that. Alot. On that day, the Department of Justice honoured itself, the hundred thousand or so folks who work there. and the three hundred million plus people who rely on that institution to uphold the rule of law, and I think We need more days like that when we need more people who can,

our institutions in line with our ideals in so today may fifteenth twelve years. Dress. At that hearing, rumours young staffer were younger staffer. I think it's worth thinking about Well, that's it for this episode of statehood, thanks again to my guest Valerie, Jarrett Tweet, your question. Fritz Braun, with a hashtags asked press freedom call six hundred and sixty nine two hundred and forty seven seven thousand three hundred and thirty eight and leave me a message that six thousand six hundred and ninety two 4pre or you can send an email to stay tuned, cafe: dot com. If you like what rate and review to show an apple pie casts Europe, help new listeners find the show say, tunes presented I care for the executive produced tomorrow separate senior producer

his errand off in a cafe team is Carl appearing Julia Doyle, Calvin Lord, when a bastard and Jeff Eyes, our music is by Andrew Dost, I'm preparers stay tuned.