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Hi, this is David Rubinstein. The host of the New York Historical Society's new pod cast for the ages join me as I explore the rich and complex history of the United States with a nation's foremost historians and authors. Listen to for the ages wherever you get your pod guests from CAFE welcomed. stay tuned, I'm Preet the reason all these of the Russians were able to abuse these platform. So much. This wasn't hacking. This wasn't some Secret, nefarious, russian plot to sneak into Facebook and glum itself onto its servers. They were customers on Facebook. They were customers of twitter, their customers of Youtube. They use the systems as they were dead. I'd. That's carers wishes she's the editor at large Rico's, the hostess Rico to decode Talk cast Anna Control opinion writer for the New York Times. I speak with her about the future of Facebook. Why mark Zuckerberg is unfair

and whether Silicon Valley is infer a reckoning. That's coming up statehood. Ok before we get started with it, Since a quick note, I want to make a correction from something I said last week when in the case of Maria Buddha, the alleged russian spy ice, was one of the cases referred out by Mahler to the disease was attorney's office. In fact, the case was a broader counter: intelligence investigation by the Justice Department and the FBI that predated the two thousand succeed election now. to your questions. This question comes from twitter from a user named GINO, you owe design who says hashtag aspirate. What are your thoughts and the delay of flint sentencing after Tuesdays court date? So I have a few thoughts. It was kind of a crazy day. Everyone had been expecting the microphone will be sends. You may recall that Michael Flynn is the former national security adviser who plead guilty to a single.

count, but making false statements to the FBI was this year is crime, but the guidelines under the sensing regime call generally speaking, for only as your six month sentence plans. Lawyers as you might expect, requested that Flynn not be sensed any jail time and, as we discussed a few weeks ago, the special councils office also made a recommendation of leniency for Michael Flynn on a few different bases, one that he was very cooperative too, that he had performed important military service to the country over the course of more than three decades and at the crime itself carried with it only the guidelines recommendation of zero six months. That's the range and you'll recall when Michaelson was arrested a year ago and plead guilty to that one offence there questions about whether or not he had been given a sweetheart deal and not asked to plead guilty other crimes which could have been proven.

or did they did not have information about other crimes or enough evidence of other crimes were. I think the answer that question is now much more clear. The Michael Flynn was given a very, very good deal that, unlike some offices like the southern district of new The special council does not have an absolute policy of making some one who is guilty of other things plead to all of those things acknowledge all those things and where the regions we know it, Michael Flint, is guilty of other things, it seems, is a two of his former business associates were charged the day before his own sentencing was scheduled, and Michael than himself is referred to in that document, and it appears that he would have similar culpability on a common criminal side. With respect to those, things? There is also a lot of signals from the reporting that there are other shoes to drop with respect to Michael Flints, cooperation on various matters and the likelihood is that he is able to cooperate on those other matters and provide substantial assistance on those other matters, because he himself was involved in them. So we got a sweetheart deal

And as we are moving towards sentencing this week, all signs pointed to Michael Flynn doing ok in coming out with no jail sense, I'm not saying it's all attributable to his lawyers, but his lawyers made a colossal blunder by starting to suggest to the court On the eve of sentencing, a number of things, including the Michael Flynn, was Miss treated by the FBI. That Michael Flynn in some way was entrapped that Michael Flynn, you know what sort of not certain that the plea was appropriate and throwing up a lot of dust and a lot of smoke. and Judge Sullivan was having none of it. The arguments made by Defence Council started to be circulated in

ECHO chamber, of conservative, talk, radio and television and a lot of Michael Flynn defenders and trumped offenders started to say all sorts of things exalting the judge, Emmett Sullivan in some ways correctly by saying that Emmett Sullivan, uniquely among federal judges, has no fear about knocking down the government and shutting down the government when he doesn't like its arguments. Amateur, as you may know, perhaps most famously excoriated. They use Department of Justice after it box the prosecution of TAT Stevens, the former laid senator from Alaska. So he has a history of pulling out government over reaching and government misconduct, and so, in this admission made its way through the court. It was a field day for Commentators who decide to prop up, Judge, Sullivan and say correctly, is no nonsense she doesn't like bs and it turns out he doesn't. The problem is yes in this case, where the arguments being made at the last minute

unnecessarily, in my view, to think he was gonna end up doing: ok, bye, microphones, lawyers to Emmett Sullivan, If you just want a sense of how no nonsense to Sullivan was where he thought the nonsense was coming from. Here is just a snippet of the transcript from the sentencing this week in the court on point after point made sensing submission and the people were talking about. The airwaves asks direct questions to Michael Flints lawyers. Here's a few examples, the court do you believe the FBI had a legal obligation to warn Mr Flynn that line to the FBI was a federal crime. Flinch lawyer know your honour, the court, Is it your contention that Mr Flynn was entrapped by the FBI? Lawyer? Know your honour, the court? Do you believe Mr Flynn Rights were violated by the fact that he did not have a lawyer present for the interview? The defence know. Your honour, the court, Do you believe his rights were violated by the fact that he may have been dissuaded from having a lawyer present for the interview response? No Europe,

and it goes on and on like that. So I think happened during the course of the preceding is that the judge made it clear that here stood Michaelson was guilty of a lot more things said he was disgusted by the conduct at one point here. Reached a little bit himself and made up the misleading statement about about what Michael Flynn was involved in lobbying for another kind. While he was a national scurried, wiser that wasn't true, but he was clear that he was horrified by conduct not just by the mere lies. There were the subject of his guilty plea and in further faded, clear that isn't like the arguments are being made in a nonsense that was being scattered about the FBI and the self pitying sort of tirade that he read in the sentencing memorandum and in further, and perhaps most importantly, the judge made clear to Michael Flynn that he might send him too.

notwithstanding the plane that was sending the cooperation that was sending his military service and asked him and his players before taking a recess. Do you still want to proceed, or do you want to finish your cooperation, and I think you've heard me saying the show before the standard operating procedure, for a cooperating witness for reasons as crystallized in this case. Is you wait until all your cooperation is done until you ve testified until the prosecutors can have the best opportunity to advise the court of how much you help them? And then, after that you go to court and you get sensed? The argument here has been that Michael Flynn want to get on with it. In the same sort of Michael corn wanted to. But your attitude, Vantage when you do that, especially when you have a judge whose your conduct and not in others, You gonna go along with the government suggests, or your lawyer suggest, and so the best route for him. Ultimately, I think was to do what he did was to take the hint,

judge double down on his cooperation. Go back with Especial councils office. a journey sensing date and be able to prove to the court at that point that you're not making up. You know games men like arguments, but rather that your contrite, but you polish Eric you take responsibility and by the way, look at all these other things,

done over the last several months and you have sort of the you hit the pause button in a way on sentencing. It's important remember that the documents filed in court make clear that Michael Flynn had nineteen sections with prosecutor. So it is not necessarily the case that he is going to do a ton of more sessions and point them in new direction. So they can prosecute other people if they haven't thought about prosecuting yet special counsel's office. It just made it clear that there is a possibility of continuing cooperation and part of what happens to a pause is the fruit of that cooperation is more likely to be known and we're likely to be credited for his benefit. If some more months elapsed, and so he probably did himself a favor, probably to the special council, offers a favour to that's why I think it was delayed. Here's a twitter question from user illicit as Davis who asks what happens to SD and why and mother investigations. If there is a? U S, government shutdown, hashtag ass pre. What seems to me, as were recordings of the shutdown, is likely been

but that doesn't mean there won't be another threat of a shut down in a few months and a few months after that, I prefer as you said, turning during an actual government shut down a few years ago- and I will tell you just at the outset- that there's nothing more embarrassing and humiliating for a functioning democracy. Then, to have its politicians not be able to play nice enough together to keep the government open for lots of important services and people of sometimes asked me did you ever have a bad day, Your stay as he attorney, and there were days where things in Gaza, where we wanted the worst day, was happening, oh and tell a subset of fine public servants in the southern district of New York that politicians that we have sent a Washington are dumb. They'll know how to keep the government open there at an impasse, and the consequence of that is some subset of you are going to go home and are not permitted to come to work, are not permitted to work from home. Even though you have these important jobs,

and there is no guarantee that you will ever paid for those days that you were sent home and a topic that to say that the emergency shut down plan of the Justice Department distinguishes two categories of people as essential or non essential, and you folks, why consider to be vital in critical to the mission of the office and to help, public, because a lot of you do civil work and our criminal work. we're deeming you not essential so to tell people they might get paid to tell people their government does respect them enough and

and that they are being categorizes non essential is a terrible thing to have to do so. That point one point two is, as you might infer from the division of essential, not essential generally with when these plans are written up in the various departments between the Justice Department and if it be different now, but this is the way was a few years ago that most people who are doing criminal work, criminal FBI agents, criminal prosecutors who are engaged in dealing with public safety, whatever the nature of the public safety threat, are considered essential and remain on duty. So my expectation be that investigations at the Essen, why of whatever type and the mother the would continue. This is also a question from twitter coming from user crabby commuter. I feel your pain. Why we trust the boot now would be illogical operator and not one,

the others who misled or withheld it whomever behest clearly to their detriment. But why would they even consider this? She has a lot to be afraid of so you referring to Maria Buena, who is decide to plead guilty and cooperate with prosecutors with respect to her knowledge about russian engagement with the EU, perhaps during the campaign of almonds, with various matters relating to the inner re, potentially and also connections, to account but political operative. So you ask a great question, which is a question that is not unique:

to Marie Aboot notes a question. You always ask with aspect every cooperate, her that prosecutors had to ask about Paul metaphor: it after you went to trial, was convicted desire to cooperate to flip, and then he turned out not to be logical operator and continued to lie to prosecutors and give them the truth, and it appears that at various points he had contact with the White House, any ministration that he lied about. So you ask those questions and you try to corroborate everything they say now. She could be pretend cooperating like people sometimes do in my parliamentary for did in connection with the Miller investigation, but we'll see I'm pretty even though that the prosecutors, the Dco was attorney's office, are gonna, be very careful and hesitant to believe something on her word alone, what's gonna to be required, our emails and phone conversations and texts and other corroborating bits of information that make them believe the things that she is saying about. Other folks, that's the way, works in all cooperation scenarios and will work there,

a here. Also elements you something else. You know, as we will end up, seeing with Paul manner for it. If you decide to cooperate five site and I cooperate fine, but the worst thing you can do is this to cooperate and then renege on your obligation to tell the truth that put you in the absolute worse position so now that she has decided to flip and agreed to cooperate. The one thing that the government has going for it is that people who are intelligent, empowerment afford seems not to be in this regard. People intelligent have every incentive to tell the truth and the whole truth, because it made this decision to cooperate in the first place. It is pointless to do this, put yourself in harm's way, put your family, perhaps in Russia in harm's way and not go the full hundred yards

my guest this week is Kara. Wisher she's been covering Silicon Valley since ninety nineties It is one of the world's most influential technology journalists, carries interviewed everyone from Mark Zuckerberg to Steve Jobs, to bill gates and has no fear of holding big tech companies to account I talked with her about how technology is effective democracy with Google. Operate in China and what would have Twitter, deleted, Thou trumps account. That's coming up statehood. Stay tuned, supported by the new Yorker, the new Yorker, isn't chronic magazine that represents the best writing in America. Today you ve heard there matters here and stay tuned, Jane Mayor, Unread, Cavenaugh, Ronan, fair, Harvey Wines, dean and the me to movement and Jeff.

human with me live from the town hall. There reporters whole people in power accountable through rigorous reporting and compelling store and they don't just cover the subjects we tackle here: politics, justice and the law. Every week, there's great reporting on international affairs. climate change in the environment, science and technology, business fiction, poetry, food humor and cartoons, You pick up the magazine to read the talk of the town: Suddenly, reading ten thousand words on a subject you had no idea could be so fascinating paper jams, fault lines, heirloom beans, stink bugs so dont couldn't Yorker dot com, slash, preach listeners of stay to say fifty percent when they enter code preach with despair. Lawford will receive twelve issues, were just six dollars, plus get the exclusive New Yorker tote back. You can choose between Digital or a combo print in digital subscription, subscribe to the new Yorker and read something that mean something: that's twelve issues for six dollars and a free

so back when you got a new Yorker dot com, slash preach. I want to remind everyone to listen to my new podcast co, hosted by the former New Jersey attorney general and my friend and Milgram. It's called Kathy insider. Every week we bring and the headlines and take stock of what's happening. Members of care insider will, get access to full episodes and a weekly newsletter, so good a cafe. I come slash insider and become a member. Cars which are things were being on the show near welcome. So we have a lot of things to talk about. The timing is great, but first I ask your question about you, chair, which is. How the hell am I who the hell? Are you talking about? What will the real cars, which are please stand up? Well now, look so I'm going to ask this question by reference to a movie. Ok, I think it's a Bronx tail Great Great great, moving gratefully And the main character get asked, the question is a monster in it ass, a question would you their beloved or be feared, and he says I'd rather be feared, dead

It is right that my Iraq's my Indian brags accent and there is The question is what was interesting things written about you in New York magazine was it you are the most feared and well liked yeah tackled. What are its analyses? Al you? That's where something right or something wrong, something you know Here's why I think I'm like, because I think they see me coming, I don't I'm not really unfair and sneaky. I think that's what it is. I think a very clear what the people on covering, and so I can have long dialogues with them and I dont disrespect them unless they really are disrespectful essentially, so I think I treat people with respect and, at the same time, don't back down I think, they're scared of what I might know and at the same time I'm not rude and in people always are surprised that an environment receiver I am tired with just two minutes into the interview and funds any gun very funny. I am somewhat disarming the people I cover, and so I just need answers right. If I do so, I will say so vile about it's. It's like a regular reporters.

You know John did in that at best that importers are always. You know air, manipulative people and charming is he's not in medieval, and I mean in a negative sense. I mean in a positive sense, is that you know you're a boy are you know you have to charm jar, easier to charm, judges you have to charm clients, etc, etc guess, thrived exactly so. You have to have yet about an arsenal of qualities, and I am actually happen to like the people I cover. I find them interesting or the right to fury. I think so in some cases, not everybody. I think they should fear people who s straight up questions about what they're doing. I think a lot of Silicon Valley, like a lot of industries, gets by on a lot of sort of hype and pr- and I think, people go well? I don't really understand that or ask the sort of more pointed questions. I think they get nervous. So yes, so I started my first book metres as we sit here in the studio on Wednesday December big story in the New York Times about facebook- you written about Facebook in some of the other big social media, tech companies,

times reports that unbeknownst to people previously Facebook has been sharing personal information of a gazillion and odious numbers, but gazillion people with other companies and sorted seems to be getting away with it by suggesting as marks. Brok has. Will we never sold personal information right directly? They just shared it yeah. How big a deal Well, it's just more of the drip drip drip of what there, but they ve been doing and how they been conducting their did the data that they been entrusted with how they ve been managing knifing badly. I think, is probably very nice way to put it. We look there and this data business forever and everyone understands it, and the question is now: people are starting to drop a dime on Facebook and saying here's how they actually shared and the question is so interesting as when I put this up, as it was really interesting to mean striking about the latest near times. Each of which there have been many all kinds of me- We been warning about their privacy issues for years and their lack of, care around the privacy and

quizzing mark Zuckerberg. This four for ten years is, how badly they manage to privacy they ve been entrusted with and how loose they are with it, and I think that's really at the heart of what's going on here is that these are average businesses, so data is gonna, be attached to them, but they have enormous amounts of data and people how they manage. It is pretty sloppy, but why? Why have been so sloppy? Why is it so bad? Why is it that this company that has no profitable has so many Suno, so called geniuses who run it? This is central to their business model and to their reputation why the screen so badly. What I mean the decent there's, no two ways about it: you are the product of these people, these. They are selling your information, not which is doing that what they do with really entering a very canny by Mark Zuckerberg when he was in Congress, He was like we don't sell data congressmen, we don't sell day senator they don't sell data. What they do is they take data and they manipulate and mash up and combine it with other data and then sell insights into the data to everybody or they share it with partners.

They want to be part of the face. What platform for whatever advantage Facebook is looking for, or so in the case of being they may? some some deal where they trade data back and forth, for example, or information thinking with Netflix or Spotify? Sometimes it's just an advertising relationship, but the fact matter, as is their take, your data and doing things with it in order to monetize it in some way, and the way they ve been doing it has been. Did she spent sloppily, managed you know in, and sometimes it has massive repercussions in terms of how they manage their platforms, such as. In my are India, where they didn't have rules or a bill, to monitor some of the things that were going on on the platform suits sloppy to me all over the place, with very disturbing repercussions so and users, be some might say, you lay them a little bit off the hook by suggesting you know they just didn't get it right. There was an competence. There is negligence, rather than their intentionally, manipulating your data, their intent we telling Congress what they want to hear and right actually telling the users something that would not make them freak out. I think what they do with it

done is that they ve been very what they ve been very loose in deciding what the rules they agreed to with you are, and in terms of whether I think that the Fault ACT, lies with Congress and other regulatory agencies that have never put into place laws of what they can do, what they can do and what they ve done. Is they built a wild west? Where anything goes and then they say anything goes, and I think that the issue is that we create this situation to allow these platforms through a series of legislative things, including section two. Thirty of the communication. decency, act which gives these and you know about immunity, these company, broad immunity. What do you think they're gonna? Do you think they're gonna be good citizens who you think they're gonna make the most money possible the same time they will, Again, in these enormous washes of data that flood their system, they can't, madam, I to see their doing intentionally. Of course, they're doing unintentionally, but they're allowed to do it intentionally and the questions are they're gonna, be laws in place to stop them from doing it. Is Congress too dumb to do.

and by that I mean you know I q right but not experienced enough, but we are not all of us, but many of us would, Mark Zuckerberg testimony in Congress and the talk about it was not his testimony was now, but how absurd, third and luddite democracy weren't fixated on things like whether conservatives get to speak like whether diamond and sailed get to be on Facebook properly that the things they are or what? terms of services, if that was the biggest problem of our nations and their nationals to carry Look Congress as regulated the telecom industry before they have regulated Microsoft. They have regulated all kinds of companies with companies, finance com, these things like that, they will be able to do it if they- and there are laws already in place- is not like there isn't earlier stuff, that's going on in California, there's a privacy law in California. This really interesting, there's a whole budget that's going on in Europe, isn't like they can't follow them. in terms of what should happen, and the question is: if they have

political will to do so and to understand how much data is washing around the system and who is taking advantage of it so before we get to maybe more specific, somehow, Congress might regulate entities like Facebook. Let me first ask you what the business future is. Lots of people are, after the Cambridge Analytical story, I'm for more people be upset after the story, and so some people, taking matters into their own hands. Somebody who's our time business partner of yours and tour of yours. What Maastricht deleted as Facebook account- and there are there- are reports, that some percentages of people who have been avid users, a facebook or deleting their account right is not a good idea should idly. My facebook account Do you understand what information they have? I dont use Facebook that much. I find it a very I dont use examine like the product during its lugubrious and bacon, bloated and stuff, like that. What they do is lugubrious just slow moving. It just don't find any use to our own rousing for Frank. You know from you know

did this because, whilst very you know, he has very strong opinions about privacy and the uses of privacy, anything through its history face with his shown either cynical or sloppily, that they have not been able to manage data properly in their first inclination is to steal information or to take information and manipulated, and I think what we years ago, walk called marks. Brennan Information thief to me, and I was always struck by that, like whatever he can. he takes and he grabbed and the question is: is he grabbing it? What is he grabbed me for and for what reason? In his mind, he is helping. Greece This great information place for people to share and be part of a community and survey that and the trade off you make by giving that information is worth it other people, nothing. So I think the issue for me. Book is whether they can make products in the future. I mean I don't think they're gonna met it matters that Walt Maastricht comes off of it. I think it matters if the next generation of users thinks Facebook is a worthwhile price and that's where the rubber will hit the road, but these companies- it's not gonna, be suddenly,

when deletes them. Every one didn't delete Ober after all, that those shenanigans there in that time about malevolent shenanigans right. They didn't. But they did not only people in the place. That's because I heard people say this publicly and in time no position on over Missus lift but their people. Who said when he was your Brendan. They want to get from point a to point b and tried lift and they can get a lift Carter. Common they went to this right. That actually works being in matters. Moreover morals. I suppose you know me, the question is a course: they change their ceo and things happening lot of pressure from the media and other places around what happened at over. But the question is now, So much is whether Facebook, was? Is it such a good business without its ability to to rapaciously grab data and use it to their liking, and if there are hindered, is that such business. I think that's one of the issues again as the product good will other. Onyx. They have like Instagram and what's app and oculists, be enough to lift them into the future. That's that's another question. You know you reference number

and change in leadership. From that Travis. Do any person do you think, Mark Zuckerberg and or Cheryl Sambre should go you know I think, allow the folks spokesmen on Cheryl, because surely one that can be fired at more Campi fired he's, I wrote a column is unfavourable. You cannot fight you he's like a zombie. You cannot tell him, you cannot he's Wolverine dead boy. Would you can't he controls sixty percent of the shares older voting stock and he controls the tv effectively controls accompany he's. The chairman he's the ceo he's the founder very hard in Silicon Valley to get rid of someone like that. But should you go, I think he's not capable, a company. Absolutely there should get help and have a guy gets a really serious management in there, but I don't think is actually capable of understanding the massive amounts of societal impact, This company has there's one person in charge of the most important communication system in the world in world history. One person who didn't finish college, who doesn't have to end discourses who

and it is incapable of doing making any nobody's capable of doing it, but he certainly isn't social would be afraid, nervous, I definitely that easy uneasy uneasy that one person controls such a vast. information vehicle on this planet. At this point, yes, I would be nervous how'd you describe what Facebook is at some point, I think earlier on, in its existence, Mark Zuckerberg likened to a utopia. He did may I wrote about Diana so isn't fair. Well, if it's utility, maybe to be regulated s right to do with you to write as we do so. Maybe that's on such a bit, I think, is a media company of some sort of a weird amalgam of a media company communications with We ve never seen anything like it as it is the biggest experiment in history of people being do and say whatever they want an end to remove gatekeepers and you as much as you can insult gatekeepers. They did keep things clean re. They keep things gate in certain things didn't get out there and the question can control these platforms, given that

designed- I mean one of these- I pointed out in a column this week is The reason all these the Russians were able to abuse these platforms. So much. This wasn't hacking. This wasn't some see Written a fairy. Is russian plot to sneak into Facebook input and climb itself onto it servers? They were customers of Facebook. They were customers of twitter, their customers of Youtube, they use the systems they were designed so questions are these systems designed in the wrong way. Giving Facebook in its current form, were close to its current form, will be a booming living company. in ten years. No, my first book was but a well member how big AOL was, and then at one with which they will it's now with adjust the changed, and what are they just got rid of the name in their calling it? Why are Verizon media services? So is it the lifestyle, all of these kinds of companies that they won't be in the same ten from Amazon started some twenty something out

the girl, and now we must be able, if not the most valuable company in the world, why do they fish Book Amazon's, very different company Amazon is providing something that people need constantly witches, which is things right, and so that's a very different business and they manage to create mode after moat around a business livery in and they ve added to their offerings. As time goes on, they ve added entertainment they bought it. very they vat convenience they ve added, quickness and stuff like that. So that's a very different business, then Facebook Facebook is, is a fad business. In a lot of ways, p do need to communicate and find a way to communicate, and this is just a later version that I'm not sure if there's anything to replace it is the issue, and the question is whether Facebook and innovate enough to serve the purpose that is supposed to Sir, which is to connect people around the globe in it anyway, is one of the biggest risks you talk about it? Being a fad business is at Facebook is already be. things were pass a million dollars

younger ones who don't know my kid so use they use. They use Instagram, but my son just called Instagram a museum which I thought was funny which he was right. It's a disputes, a performer of display mechanism for people to show off their vacations and food things there eating or how happy their family, as you ve ever spent any time in his scram. You feel terrible at the end of it, because it's just will not is terrible, as I feel I have to spend some time on twitter to islands, where too, I'm I'm again we're gonna talk about toxicity of twitter. Ok, I think it is very different to any they only in terms of Instagram is growing and people do like it. They do have what's up, which is a very fast growing communication system around the world its encrypted. Obviously, there's issues around that and then- and they what's absent in trouble has been implicated in indian and other places because of the of the nature of the way they built it for morality. And so the question is a week. We always think of it in terms of just this country was happening globally is much more dangerous,

what's happening and say the Philippines. I just interviewed Maria Corazza who's on the cover of time magazine that journalists, their facebook is away. Everybody gets all information like ninety. One per cent of the Philippines is on Facebook. Theirs is effectively He bs ABC Nbc New York Times Washington Post in one big group, without the controls at those media organisations have so if this is Facebook, I wonder about these platforms for those people of Facebook went belly up to Morrow and ceased operations not can happen, but if they did what happens to them, consumers of news in the Philippines. I don't know, I don't know what happened today. We they wait as there are no great what would happen if this trial removed Donald Trump from Twitter. What would happen the world better plan were ok, but if they haven't, I'm just saying that little its they're, not gonna. It's not gonna happen, and I mean I guess parties now. The question is: does that inform my earlier question that Facebook is too big? according to some people in their lives and in other countries that in their enough forces to profit

ultimately well any before they used to get information through what radio, through young tv, through newspapers and things like that. Will those businesses have been decimated by guess what Facebook right to these? Not just Facebook, but but Google and Facebook essential iota prom from people who have thrown media businesses other small businesses is. They rely on the facebook algorithm for consumers to find them, and when this happened a few months ago, maybe was year or two ago, Facebook on its own to design to change what s the algorithm will. What shows up in its view, in people's feeds and those businesses are decimated, because a relying on this platform is not regulated very well. It's it's, not a utility, not regulated as utility, and so people left a little bit at risk Yes, you have this monolithic thing, but it's not regulate at all, let's be clear, there are no laws that regulate them. None they have none. Media companies have them telecom companies,

them while street further passion, worse or not so well, also so beer, the wave, your magic wand is sometimes ask gonna, show one law its clear and understandable that can be enforced. Later I would remove immunity from the platforms that they are responsible for. What's on their platforms in some way, No, no, it has to be right. Has two you have to think clearly about what what they need to be responsible for, but in that black of any responsibility means lack of any responsibility. I think that would be something I needed privacy bill. It was that had some teeth to it, where you had to Even the basic thing is when you hack, Wintermute, like Facebook, also had to announce it hacking earlier than forgot about that we're not. There was the Senate report about how the Russians manipulated the platform. Then there Is this and then there was a hacking this week so for example, in a hacking, they should tell people immediately about a hacking and reset passwords and stuff, like that things like that that require them to do it without taking six months or six three months or whatever month Is there a way that we should think about changing the ECB

Milo, maybe it's not possible in the reason I ask that is in the times article two, we ve been talking about about Facebook. Theirs is very compelling sense that says quote personal data. Is the oil of it? our century resource worth billions is that right is that yes, how it should be well, personal data, as usual nine hundred people in the most astonishing, we, you spend every day your life with a cell phone, your pocket right, Europe's mostly Medicine Union and your staring at it needs walkin answered not talking on the human beings, not right now, twenty, but it is full. Information about the old days used to sit on your computer. You go from website a website, a website right. They can track you and understand you, but this one it goes. It says where you're going, where you move, what you did there, what you bought their who you called it, has so much, and you were literally put a sensor on your body that is constantly communal, aiding information about what you're doing in the most incredibly rich way, and so they can think about. Is there's never been?

will the track people in this way in history, and so that it makes a lot of money. It's it's worth money in Turkey. Are you sure I mean you should be? I have live, all kinds of things are moving guy. I given to a to you said this also expanded beyond Facebook. Theirs Twitter and Youtube. I, the digital arms dealers of the modern age, arms dealers, yeah think like that all together because they are selling information information, is power right, so they control all the information, and so therefore they can either marketers and they can soldier Russians fake it doesnt matter, like anyone, can avail themselves to these tools and platforms to do things like just the fact that the Russians were able to go on this platforms and abuse it in such a way without any controls, should say to you that these people, sloppy and they're, not running their platforms correctly or they design these platforms, so that this is exactly what would occur. They nine them for veracity, engagement and speed, and when you,

design something for morality, engagement, speed, guess what you're gonna get you're gonna get fake news. Media trolls, you're gonna get malevolent players, you're gonna get leakage of information you're gonna it just this is the way it was designed from the start. This is how these platforms are designed for a start to be open platform nobody can do anything and when, and can do anything. Anyone will do anything but is arguably the fault of the well they're getting what they want, and so we have this discussion about privacy and data and people selling it a lot or up in arms and people on television, and you- and I are talking about this- but the mass of peace I do not freak out and take to the streets. Now when there's the massive surveillance of two point: two billion customers, the Facebook has they actually don't freak out so much they dont rejects. They understand quite how much you can see they. Don't she direct right hearts are getting them getting stuff right, they're, getting a cool service that they get to you now, whatever your mom's group, they are talking about. Whatever order, you know my kid desert, crossteam they coordinator on that you get a lot of stuff and so

what it is you do understand how this on this together and how these tech companies not just beyond just surveillance. And in an believe me as it's worse in China, because they are allowed facial recognition and things like that when it starts to get into some really dicey, Stephanie delegated, put sensors everywhere and on you and in you, and think that that's when we have to really start wondering- and you can just my doing- but I take your point to beat it by then it will be too late until you have left a freak out now sort of like climate change right that we can still inhabit the earth today right, but the signs are that is now can be good in the future and a similar sort of thing. If it's fair, you tell me happening with respected data, privacy and personal right. This is information war going on for your info and sometimes it could be used just to sell you something from Procter and Gamble, which may seem benign: ok, Do I get toilet paper or I get whatever or it could be is to impact elections or it could be used to say what is the point? Is you can fake? You could check, video and make it seem like you preach

and something you didn't say? How would you stop that who's running those systems, and how do you ended, and so that's it creates a propaganda machine of untold power and it depends on whose hands his power resides in that's all. I just want people to think about it like it's just it just a very basic thing. Years ago, one of the founders of I can remember? I was confused the two of them. I was hard on them because they were trying to take over Yahoo search and in that case they would have controlled. Ninety seven percent of the search in this country in this country and beside not even getting globally. I said at least you're sub knew thugs when they were trying to monopolize things and in one of them call me a moment. Eric Schmidt or I can't remember- and they said how? Why do you think we're bad? Why do you think we won't run these things, and I said: well, you know what you might be your I'm a nice person like. I we're good people, that's what they always say and I was like you do. What would Hitler got his hands on this

wow? That would be a lot of power to have all the information it would have a bad man got in charge of it and by the we bad men will get in charge of in they do in the Philippines. happening with too hard day and the use of Facebook and other social media platforms to tee get enemies, and things like that. I just I just imagine a world where this amount information can be put in the wrong hands and- and I would like people to think about it- will speak of Google and China. People do not operate in China. The moment right. They were there, they were already back, they were pretty big and then their out another. You have said, I think correctly, that something that people are focusing on enough separate apart from his other issues we ve been talking about is a Google is flirting with the idea of going joy, yap many white? Why is that so bad? Given that all sorts of american companies operate China, yet free market in the world there by private companies are not charities? Why cut themselves off gigantic market, I'd nuts I just want to know what they're doing there in a creator. They create a censored search engine. So let's just talk about that yeah. Let's talk U S company creating a censored search engine and if they wanted.

What they need to pay the price for what that costs, and that's all. I want them to talk about trends, Only and understand what they're doing to the chinese citizens that their monitoring and things like that, and I think they want to go back to China. They regretted leaving China. They did that and kind of a half because they were being monitored by the. What a surprise the chinese government is abusive. and its monitoring of Sicilians, what would a shock and now they want to go back as they do need to be part of that big market, and their already there. By the way, Google does a lot of advertising things like that in China. Already its advertising services are there, and so the question is how they go back in and how should we think about that? That's all! I just want understand, transparently how power Google is aware think about. Maybe this is absurd, question back and ask, but I'm going to Pakistan Sheriff. I can't do that. I guess something like a hundred ninety five sovereign nations on earth. If Google, where a country where would you rank it in terms of power, very powerful up at the top biting

Companies are nation states to, I think of them as nation seas and isn't it watch Youtube, just think about known to man. That's another sloppily, let you know let la those videos that take you down a rabbit hole of right wing left, winger ever win you wanna go to, but you know that the way that's designed as it's not designed to have a clean platform and by the way Google search has very clear when you search for I don't know, ATL the anti defamation leg. You find information about the Anti Defamation league when you go on Youtube a couple months ago, about six months ago, when I was looking at you found anti semitic stuff. Why would you find anti semetic videos when you search radio? Why is that? What comes up now they ve tried to fix but the fact matter as they let anybody at all upload information onto the platform without any more during of what goes on there and then they they reap the rewards and the negative parts of that so either very powerful twitter? You said

you like beyond what I do. I know you sometimes also you're good at it. Won't like you, but there's a lot of my report, and I can tell you I can see it's like. I only know summing up like I get. I also I also like Doritos very much yes, that's true, but they're gonna send you eat a value to regos your that's kind of growth to. Why are you on their summit? I dont know you're information. I, like the news I, like, I think it's really great new in its best form, twitters pleased to find out about news and when things are happening, proudly breaking news and its also great platform to get clever people like you, we take on. The news is interesting to me too, what your commentary and stuff like that it's great island I think the problem is when it becomes bullying or when it becomes a vehicle for abuse, and I think that's the problem. You have you want to something about twitter. You said rules won't save twitter values. Will what is happening well, that they did. Decide what is allowed and what is not allowed on there, and I think one of the things twitters of all the companies of the most sort of free speech. She you know of the of the internet.

Greece, who says it has a negative way. You know what I mean that given the first and that the only reason why is because they do it in this way that they act like freedom is reached, doesn't mean freedom from consequence right. They act like hey Freeway each. That's it that's the end of the argument- and it's very, as you know, is a lawyer to really complicated argument. What free speeches and what people should be able to say whether people should able say false things are or difficult things and and so I think they sort of stop at that. Anyone can say anything and that's kind of like the to me. The toddler version of free speech. Try like anyone, can scream on the core, ok and then How do we conduct a society where we're gonna do that and so the minute you say well, maybe we should think about Al stones? Maybe we should think about whether we should do this and by the way these are not government entities? That's what they always act like that. There are like the federal government is just Twitter and they just Money and they can make rules around what's aloud and what's not learn their platform, and so I think some of their value should be they're gonna have values around anti bullying or whatever they pick, they have to be strict. In doing them, increase

rules that are understandable for people to follow, we'll do understand to stop sign re becoming when you are driving you get them in slow downward. Yes, it means that half a pause look both ways whatever as in New York. It means something different, but people do stand street signs, they do understand rules, they do understand all kinds of things we were able to do. That and the question: is you can't? scream do whatever you want and not expect to reap the consequences, and that particular mentality, debate about bias, whether in searches. Marianne tube is nonsense. That conference on either side It's not it's! It's nonsense! Whatever just not to say the word. The Bundestag nonsense is just nonsense. Is it really think we have is Donald Trump Bent than now? Many people say what he thinks I feel like. We ve had plenty of Donald Trump and his friends and all the right wing they get to do whatever they want and in fact it would interest as for years, and I do agree with this that the right side of this country, the more conservative side, was kept out of me

the media. What it was is and has been pretty liberal for most of its history or centrist, I would say I would say to liberal, because they like to keep control of in order not to their not down, No Alexandria, Cassio Cortez is avenue There are certain they ve been often making compare profiting from governments, but their relatively liberal group of people who mostly live in the upper asked any side of New York's. So they ve, been relatively liberal and and and conservatives have been aced out of that now with fire. NEWS, they got a voice and they got started to get that. But you can many voices have been. I have been using digital means for years now going way way back, and so it's a real. It's been a place where people who were able to be heard were able to be heard, and so they ve created, Sites in all kinds of stuff, you know unread it or wherever, and so there's lots of voices, and so when they They don't have voices only have voices like there aren't you can create a website. You can create we have had Alex Jones. Had you not had digital means to be able to communicate his views, whatever you think of those whose

their awful, so these it'll means really worth the price. Well, I don't know if that's what you get like before our stones, never would have been able to be anywhere right. Where would you have seen made of sticks near he's been down in his dirty little hole? For you know what I mean like and now he can. He can communicate his views to the public and that the fact that they say you don't have an ability to communicate their views is just ridiculous. It's a persecuted mentality, that's insane, and we also your cat videos write me: a cab, to determine anything? But I'm just saying these people have plenty of tools at their disposal. It just just might be that these are private companies that can make room. about what's aloud and what's not allowed on these platforms, the effect on democracy, Facebook in these other companies overall good for them see or now, democracy, not good. I think that what I think we're in the knock it could they could be good. The idea Everybody has a voice and people who are very disenfranchise him a voice. What a great idea right. So how do we get further towards that idea

as if we have to be clear about what we have to have a civil society right. We have legislator right, you can't that's. The thing is because we have a president who is not simple in any way and has taken it to me. No two, eleven on how to be toxic, and so everybody that sort of the brakes or off frayed. Everybody just does whatever they want now, and so I dont know how you put that back into it. Sort of like I'm going to see. the playing network, the on Broadway. If you remember watching network. All the things that were in it seems crazy at the time now every single thing in network is present on cable for sure some cable show a psychic show of whatever just not executions, not live executions that everyone's Moselle and knock take it anymore, and so now they have a vehicle to do, and so the question is king humanity pull itself back from its behaviors. That party, aren't you. Man is a decent, these screens or addictive there. They are designed to be addictive higher people to make you addicted to them, and therefore your addicted

them and there they appeal to the worst nature. And so what do we do about that right? It will so you may not. Here too, ecology, but you, a lot of people discussing in my family, has been discussing and anticipated discussed in the schools more their number has been before the sort of up, baseline meanness, the p learn engaging in and you suggested various causes, and it's not. Your great behaviour is not being model by the President. I think or any shocking to say. No, I wouldn't put so much blame on that person. Does it make any better? He may make it all, but worse but now you know used to be the case. If you want to see some may mean to somebody, you did it. furthermore, in the underground and people would do that happen to me when I was a kid, it's much easier both to do it from a device if you do from a device behind the cloak of anonymity like working on twitter and people to get used to trading insults and telling other people to kill themselves, and and hurt themselves, have you stop that I've used up

is it the innovative actually bought? Some of this is fake, like that the Russians came in to create discord is very easy. There is really interesting story. I did about the Botz around Roseanne BAR when she said the stupid thing about Valley Jared and then I think, Samantha be said something stupid. The initial activity around that on Twitter was created by Botz, creating trouble, and making all this is terrible. This is terrible, is terrible and then drag in humans when they see that actively. So you know, there's ways to control these systems, that does that dont gin things up initially by getting rid of Botz? That's that's a very simple! is like how do we remove bought from the system so that so that these men violators get taken out back and could take the and put your down by several degrees rage twitters make some headway there with the trying try but still it still a platform where they don't really monitor the people that are on it and people get to do whatever they want. Somebody last night, tweeted me delete your face during those upon yeah. Can you

must have been a binding to look. I got a kind of mean here. You have a whit why'd, you look at it just ages. I did you did identity very I'm not gonna, believe I did. I was now I was an iron tonight is required, is responding to a bunch of things, and I was like you're talking to our bought. Stop like don't do don't do it it's hard not to its hard, not to have someone says in your face. You go back in their face right. I do so not today not today, so I die now decided, Think of anybody who says anything critical, whether its intelligently critical than most but even the real life not what living there like, obviously yeah. It's droid right. Sometimes it is, but I am saying is that these things are designed not to have the best of human nature in there How you build things is how things matter. If you design things from said advice, reality, speed and engagement. You're gonna get a crappy out,

you just are you're gonna get noise, or can you take news if you design them for community and contexts and factual backs, you get a very different outcome. It's like anything you build so the question. Can we build these systems in ways that are much more careful? They were built for with growth in mind and the thing that grows is fear and loathing niceness? They also. It is a good thing to that. Also turns out to be something that really well online. So the question is: can you start to design these things in different ways or have we gone too far and were so used to it. Nor kind of Nina, like Doritos we like to read, is by the way there's carrots Can we get people like carrots over Doritos? I dont know. Can we know,

No maybe right can just saying this is, is a similar thing to nutrition or any less about about myself away more right, but I'm saying or we gonna have a giant obese population that is just going to die of art attack in making have really drives sown in cybercrime from their parents basement it's not in similarly attrition. It's the law is not the same if working to flood the zone with sugar process prior we're gonna get a bad population. If we think about it, we could also get a good population. These tools are great. ask you a few more questions I could go on for our. What is the best tat company today I wish you know everyone's got their problems. I think, Paul, I think, is really interesting me. They ve got their issues of how they manufacture things. Everyone's every single companies got issues, but I do like dealing, TIM Cook. I think he was one of the first sound these large, even that within his interest to sound the alarm on privacy. I didn't interview with him a march when he talked about this, that these business plans are going to create these powers but I think they run that very well. The question is: can they keep making great products? That's gonna, be there issue? Can they make a product

you wanna, keep buying and using an apple product. I like you're being be allied, although you know some of its disorganized, they got some issues around regulation and things like that I do like. I think their product is really interesting. Amazon is obviously. Try really hard not to use Amazon, but it really is good, like these really good stressed its fast, it's good gets you. What you want. The customer service is great question is: do we want ones no company, really decimating retail. Although of retails bad. Should its continued the minutes, Amazon, trailers. Yes, this trait of signing Amazon Degree well run company who, with any one, is the conscience of Silicon Valley. Nobody, but I don't know I mean I marked any office- been interesting around pushing around homelessness. So do we need someone to be that. Well, hasn't been someone you know, there's a lot of people say just a second, I say just a second alot of reporters do New York Times is doing a great job. The media's uniting the media in general has been doing But at the same time you don't wanna, be that, like I was this example? You don't wanna, be the person sitting on

each and kitty, are going ok, they just got to feed off the ground and they said three re reg, They flow like that that missing the point that there's all these really amazing innovations. It could help humanity around healthcare around how we live, how we, how we connect with each other there so much goodness in this technology? How can we get to that the court and this image amazing. No one would say we shouldn't have flight right. We shouldn't have made planes. Maybe someone would someone say why why we're? lanes? But it's no one says we shouldn't have cars re cars have been a great boon they have also been a negative thing, and so the question is: how do we How do we design these things for maximum goodness for humanity? If we're gonna use these techniques or and go into this disturbing in view of every single science fiction movie, where we end up tiny little square foot of space where our door is talking to us and were worth having relationships with holograms I mean. Maybe that's where we're going, shall we be afraid of robot? I you know

robot should be afraid of us, but that you, I won't. Passing by these robots, trying to Roma to be human? Why don't yet humans to be more robotic like when we add. Why would you because we could add allergens, we get add more strength to get a better eyesight. You to one of them that I thought was really interesting, their speaking of which on twitter, which is, I wouldn't, have found anywhere else. Someone said the thing the tech company should do. Who is sit down whenever there making product think? What is the black mirror episode of this of this? this product. What is the worst case scenario? The disk? I thought that was brilliant. I thought that was just even doing that would create better products Great, isn't she knew about it? Black merited advertise, yes, blackmailers. What agreed last year to feed its lobsters, a lot of part of wages are delicious. Free productivity are delicious, they are full of chemical, you can. They are designed to make you fat to say you know, or you can run for mayors and which is now not now now because there's a mayor. We just got a new mayor because their manners dialogue can run the next one

We too. All by then we will see how this mayor does. He have to give this mere chance. I who have old everyone wanted for previous years. Why would like it to be married and resist? Go because look, here's a city that is struggling might with issues around homelessness around haves and have nots around issues of just basic. a functioning city functions could, be a city that is sort of the example of how you design cities in the future and shouldn't be San Francisco. That's the only thing is you decide what is the mayor decided no more cars in San Francisco and we're just going to do it by two thousand and twenty whatever, whatever the date you want to have like, I think that the mayors have a great whoever the mayor of any city is can start to say how we gonna design cities going forward to create livable. And yet, where is this future going giving everyone's willingness idiots. That's the reason I was very interested in what could you? How could you create on a very local level, a city where you dont, create the situation where you have these rich tech companies and poor people on the street,

and how do you solve those problems together as a civic group, but its think you'll be really interesting experiments. then you could iterated around the globe. We think about Amazon moving an office to New York and what a surprise he ass. They didn't locate places where they they? Might you know it's interesting that those giveaways that people give to the richest people in what I thought it was an interesting contrasts with Apple just moved into Austrian and didn't asked for anything they just moved in and they that was that they didn't make it I didn't make us too. I thought that was a ridiculous circus. Dick it was, You know where they are and end up there and end up in DC in New York, where there was an end. Is it a good deal for anyone other than Amazon? No, but neither US the aims, neither anything's, I think. No, I mean they d provide great jobs, but you already have great job to array. I would have voted

more yeah, but I think the question is: why give away money to these wealthy corporations that are making money? I don't understand. I don't even begin to understand that competition doesn't make any sense, but it'll be the fear of missing out before Molly she wrote sounds like a lot of nobody wants to lose. The ambulance lose the thing you know in New Jersey as well or the thing of anything like look. I just talking about their nose the other day with someone and you know what what, when Walgreens took fair, no sin and they didn't do any due diligence on the product. They were the right. They did their word. Cbs was gonna, get its massive fraud have been committed, now that basis, I had John Kerry Rwanda on the show me how to talk about his book about their nose. Figures as wide a very very smart people get taken in the same with people who were victims are Bernie made off yet and others they think my friend right invests his or her. me with this guy and he so exclusive. I don't want to wake up five years from now and see my portfolio smaller than my friends portfolio right. In the same with these, might these pharmacy

Give me the number to say: is it when Amazon was into summer league? Look you want to be too cooperative. The government save your moving in a big area. You want to say: okay, you can improve the public transfer it or you you committed to housing or you committed like you, want to be interested in that stuff, but giveaway These companies makes almost no sense special giveaways when your mayor of term, just now, there would be no measure there was no. I will shake them down for the money and I hope you like, I think, good, creative shaken down that road or now laughed till I get like arrested by the prosecutor, like that. Nobody mean lay you about now, I'm not about, but here's the deal like you give people companies have a civic responsibility to the to the cities they live in and they used to be like that. Didn't it to be. They wouldn't fund the opera or the theatre or the whatever, and so I think company should have a civic responsibility and they should be glad to do it by the way is its better for their employees, and so that's how I would run a city I'd say: listen, you're, rich,

Give me some your money and I promise I will you and that's the thing that responsible government is to use it in a responsible way to improve the city and that's the deal that has been broken. Many types of used cars, wizard, for being the changing for having before to reading you every week. Thank you so with either the show today? I want to mention something that I got to do this week, that I thought was the most inspiring uplifting thing than I was part of in these dismal times the amazing on twitter, but I was invited to speak at a small function at a place called Marty's trot area not far from and where you law school last night, at the request of one Stephen vans and will you may also know as little Stephen? males, remember him as Silvio from the sopranos and he's a member of the eastern band, which is the band but plays with Peru. Springsteen, who I am a big fan of and little Stephen Stephen events at, does a lot of things that you might not

appreciate aside from singing and acting and entertaining folks for generations. He also cares about education. He cares about kids and he and his wife, Maureen and a bunch of other folks have, for a number of years been supporting the idea of arts in the schools and not just art for its own sake, but aren't that helps teach people about history and science and all sorts of other things, and it's even said last night. It's a tragedy in this country that in some ways the teaching of art is a luxury, because it's not that way in other countries are just worse to the whole education experience and, together with the folks who run the rock n roll forever foundation, and you can learn more about all of his work at teach rock dot org. They have come up with. I think a hundred fifty lesson plans that are used throughout the world schools in this country where people can learn about some fundamentals,

matter area, but through the music of beyond say or of. Springsteen or have you name the artist, they figure out a way to channel an educational lesson through the thing that causes some kids to listen more closely and find it more enjoyable, that's through music. If somebody tell me grown up in New Jersey where my dad was pediatrician and Asbury Park I was listening to my own personal copy of the river. The double album came out in nineteen eighty, that's some years later I be hanging out after having been the: U S attorney. what Stephen vans and to talk about music and education, I would have said you're crazy I really hope that that could happen some day and it did and administer to me- and I know it means a lot to the kids to congratulations, Vincent and Marine and all the others and everyone who cares about education and music,

The combination of the two is a pretty great partnership. Merry Christmas, everybody that's it for this episode of state to thanks again to my guest terrorists, Swisher, if you like the show, Rate and review what an apple podcast every positive review, help new listeners vines show. Send me your questions about news and politics. treat them to me at three Ferrari with a hashtag ask brief or give me a call at six hundred and sixty nine, two hundred and forty seven, seven thousand three hundred and thirty, eight six hundred and sixty nine. Who for pre or you can send an email to stay tuned, CAFE Dhaka stay tuned, is presented by Catholic its produced by cat errand and the team Pineapple Street Media, Henry Malagigi, Joel level, generalise, Berman, ten MAX Linsky, the executive producer CAFE this America,

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