From CAFE and the Vocs media pack has network welcome to stay tuned unprepared the idea of Donald Trump Sitting and Marilla GO watching my pants ronicky Hayley or anybody as there like a nominee would be drive him even more insane pathological I don't think he's not another he's capable of not running. that's congressmen, Adam Schiff, he's the here. The House Intelligence Committee Meeting does the lead house impatient manager in the first impeachment trial of Donald Trump, because right matters and the truth maps Otherwise we are lost, shift, has written a book his first midnight in Washington, how we almost foster democracy and still cook. it's behind the scenes. Look at the investigation into trumps abuses of power from Russia to Ukraine to January. Sixth.

As the House inquiry into the capital attacks proceeds chief. Once again its himself in the thick of things. I spoke with congressmen on Monday live onstage. Cooper Union in New York City, we talked about the price of the January six investigation, how the Trump Eric aged America in what he really thinks of Kevin Mccarthy. That's coming up statements. look if there's one thing that almost everyone agrees with? Is the desire to feel secure inside your home, whether you're in I for some quality family time or out of the town with friends. You should feel that your home is always protected. That's why our friends at simply safe or giving statehood listeners early access to all their black people ideals, fifty percent after award winning home security simply safe is. Is it really company that produces and sells self installed Wireless security systems that can connect to your personal devices. They have everything you need to make your homes

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Saki and John Vainer to care swish enlist chaining you'll go beyond the soundbites. As you get to know, the figures who are shaping our you'll hear from Monica Lewinsky on reclaiming her narrative representative, Roderick Christian Unworthy, and how growing up in public housing inspired him to run for office and just in a marsh and why he left the republican party. New episodes drop every Thursday, listen to the x files. Wherever you get your podcast, hello, you say hello back. It's got to be to make an observation we are on the Monday before Thanksgiving it's cold outside this is a postponed event, looks like

have a full house, and it occurs to me congressmen that you're very popular here We we have. We we have a very fine tradition of carbon bagging in this state, and I and I wonder if my first question is- I wonder if you have ever considered one- for office in New York. I am now is a repetition in the back, so you you written is very does very good and important book. We had to solve a lot of supply chain issues to get copies here. So so Please by it in currency or crypt or whatever you have midnight

Washington, how we almost lost our democracy and still could, and as you and I discussed on the phone last week, I think the most important part of that subtitle is the last three words and still could. But before we get to that- I thought he just discuss. Remember why it is we had to cancel last Friday. She would have been scheduled for long I was looking forward to it. Then there were supposed to be a vote on bill back better. This gigantic bill whose fate was uncertain- and you and I and the President Kabbah Union were were in constant dial. That day, Came a moment when you were told by the speaker of the House, Nancy Policy and others were told that the vote would take place that evening and that would necessitate you're having to come. Council get arrange, check turned out, though, didn't happen that night it didn't happen so the next morning you tell the audience want or who

was the car because of all these poor folks. We await wait additional days to hear you speak MRS Mccarthy decided that he would speak Mccarthy, that he would speak for eight hours nothing at all. It was like the most on Funny Seinfeld episode about nothing. and, of course, the whole time. I was thinking there, thinking. I could have been Cooper, you but the eyes of all the bills to decide you're going to give the longest filibusters each of your life fill a bus during early childhood education, a fellow fostering helping parents afford quality childcare, the most vigorous attack on climate change and our nations history, helping seniors with the hearing AIDS, helping diabetics with insulin? Yeah? That's that's what you want,

go to the floor and you ve been so take forever to oppose I'm going, sites you, the tweet, you sent a ten fifty eight p m. We would have been wrapping up. I think, dinner. Last Thursday he wrote the following: you took the worst order in the world, gave him the worst speech in the world and made him a read it for the longest time in the world that would be allowed. listening to Kevin Mccarthy tonight, except probably better was without getting into the deliberate process privileged did you did you write that it was at a staff member. I did right there tweet it with that I wrote, thereby staff. Wouldn't let me send that you really hear what I have to tell you about. My favorite tweet My love use, expletive easier.

I don't. I don't know why a show of hands. Yes, you may well you can believe this out, if necessary, but the first time the present, me on Twitter, sleazy, Adam chef, eccentric centre mean the former president, the former presently yes, give the current variants bore away trouble. I'm, like I thought, Biden liked you so for semi? Did that to the former president? worked under the House floor and MIKE Thomson? One of my colleagues stop me, said Adam. You should tweet back. When go low. We go high, Mr President. Go fuck! You of all the tweets that I couldn't send. That is really, I think, at the top of the list. You must use have a really great deleted folder. Maybe we can get a subpoena further deleted folder and congressmen atoms

then too much time talking about this gentleman, but I would ask you a question about Kevin Mccarthy and his colleagues and in connection with I ask you to recount, destroy that you tell in your book and when asked bluntly. This question is Kevin Mccarthy, a liar yes, I am often asked by my constituents whether the Republicans believe in private. They say in public. What are they say when there behind those doors, and I tell a story in the book about- can Mccarthy the conversation I had with him on a plane back and twenty ten, I'm in a way this this this conversation, but also chemical, was really a foreshadowing of things to come. When the Republican Party, would no longer be a party of any ideology or ideas, but would be an anti truth. Autocratic, culture, the former president. But there were twenty ten receded

to each other on a United Airlines flight. Just by coincidence, flying to Washington DC and though do asked. Did you asked to change it? I did not, but we were having the kind of conversation you have while you're waiting. For the movie anymore, to start, and it was really a total nothing of a conversation about who is going to win the midterms that we're still, six months away and I Of course, I thought the Democrats would win and he said the Republicans we're gonna win and I thought none of it at all. Until we got to Washington and went out, but ways and unbeknownst to me. He went off I think he was a deputy whip or something at the time and gave a brief to the press and up He told the press that he just come from a where we see the next to me everyone knew Republicans we're gonna win the mid terms and Adam shifted it'd him on the plane republic. We're going to win the mid terms, and I

This didn't come out until the following morning, and I was just beside myself and I read stopped him on the house floor and Kevin. First of all, a private conversation. I would have thought it was a private conversation, but if it wasn't, You know, I said the exact opposite of what you told the press he looks at me- and he says, yeah, I know Adam, but you know how it goes. And as like no Kevin, I dont how it goes. You just makes it up and that's how you operate because, Now how we operate but it is how he operates, and that since he was really made for for this time- and no that's eleven years ago. Yes, well, it was a perfectly illustration of what he's made of is. Is your book. It is interesting to me not the dynamic and not that he is who is, but that you wanted to tell the story.

we have you told that story about that lie before your book publicly? I think I have told it Papa clay, but but not to a mass audience. My would tell that to people back home. I would tell her to my colleagues to all my colleagues what kind of approach they were dealing with in dealing with Kevin Mccarthy. What I would I coming back to over the last four years was something that The historian Robert Carol once said? interview. He said that power doesn't care as much as it reveals doesn't always reveals for our best, but it says, a lot about who we are over the last several years. No chemicals, this obviously that predated this era, over the last. Several years I saw so many of my colleagues like Mccarthy who I had admired and respected, because I believe that what they are, I believe, the baby what they were saying? I turned out

not to believe it at all or if they did believe it. None of it mattered as much as keeping position, the house or maybe getting a better position you can see all you to see about what people are made of in comparing to members of Congress right now Liz Cheney, who said, I will not carry a big lion, no matter what it may cause me in terms of my leadership position analysed Veronica said you need someone to tell the big lie I volunteer, and this this this period of our history has demonstrated just how many people, and She's, a power were willing to sack face their ideology, their ethics. Everything do you think, because this is an arc that I wanna talk to you about, A straight line between lying, which is terrible, but does it propagate violence,

and I know it's your view and it's my view that this particular big lie about the election ended up in violence but I wonder how we got there and to the other thing that you, as a body did last week was you have a central role? which is very unusual and how happens from time to time with respect my least favoured dentist represent Nepal, go sovereign right, who posted and without any contrition seemingly who posted a video anime cartoon depicting the killing of a new work area. Congresswoman YO see. Do you think that censure vote matters do think anybody cares because, among other things represent a ghost- after he was censured by the house by your body by majority retweeted that tweet

does it have any value and worth doing that kind of thing. I think it does as an expression of our values in the Democratic Party. Even if those values are not shared among republics in Congress right now, This is your shows you how crazy it is in the Jubilee Conference right now they century someone for glorifying the murder of their colleagues, but discussing whether they should strip Committee assignments from Republicans who voted for a bipartisan infrastructure bill. So we vote to fill potholes and collapsing bridges and what not and you should be censured because they goal is due to try to make Joe Biden a failure and if they make the country fail. Well, that's just too bad. But if you glorify violence against your colleague, that's ok, but but to get together, you're underline point we are at very dangerous place.

It was as you as you point out that big lie that lead people to attack the capital that day, but even More broadly, if you persuade people as the former president and his neighbours in Congress. Haven't you persuade millions of people that they can? I rely on elections anymore, to decide who should govern than what is left but violence and without what I find so awful about the periods since January. Sixth, is that when we saw where that lie brought us. When we saw the result of trouble, Trump ISM was a bloody attack on the capital. Even after that, The decision to double down on that lie is almost and comprehensible, and when you couple with efforts now around the country to Strip endeavour. elections, officials of the duties and give it over to partisan words and officials, the communists, these two things the lie- and this frontal SALT on the technocratic, elect

officials out there, it's to me the lesson that Donald Trump Republicans learned from the failed in Sir action is that next time they succeed, if not with a violent attack, they will succeed. making sure that, if Brad Rapids Burger wouldn't find eleven thousand seven hundred eighty votes that don't it this, they will have someone opposition. Who will you just use? The word comprehensible, which is incorrect and a fine words, but I want to ask you to add to be a psychologist or psychiatrists at the moment, not a politician and give sort in the light most favourable to the Republicans you're. Talking about an explanation, as to. Why might be that they're not willing to censure someone who posts violent imagery, but want to censure someone a strip of committee assignments. Like you said a second ago, people who voted for infrastructure, which regional people can differ about, and there was a bipartisan vote about.

I feel sometimes it's too easy when we say it's incomprehensible and we shake their heads and explanation is not justification or excuse, but do you have a theory I do my theory in its it's the same dichotomy I guess between understanding at a very practical level. Not understanding at all at the at the broadest level and at a very practical level there, terrified of trumpets, primary challenge at a very practical level. This is where the bay of their party? Is they have created this monster, on the basis of their party, which they now can't control, they told did, I think, after the direction with Casting Donald Trump aside, you could see Mitch Mcconnell grab With what he knows has been a ruinous leader for their party someone who was destroyed so

of the institution that he served and for so long, but ultimate Lee, they decided colonel among them that if they tried to cast Trump aside, that they them I was, would be cast aside and and I understand that it one level but another level. Why are they there? Why did they for Congress to begin with what was the whole point still Steve's police, the number three Republic and on Fox about a month ago used on Chris was this programme, and it was ass three times that Christmas. Essentially just say she wasn't stolen, though you Tell me that's the escalation, doesn't know the election wasn't stolen, but he couldn't bring himself to tell the truth, and I think to myself as a watch that can't imagine that would Steve Scalise Design two years ago that he was gonna run for Congress. He said to me: I want to run for Congress so that one day I can be part of a big lie

that undermines the fabric of our democracy, but theory is so in really in a very real way. Part what you're saying, and I think this is observable the leaders are no longer longer leading the base, the bases leading them based on things that the leaders themselves, all we have Trump did is. Is it fair to say that they're scared of their own base? Now doubt and an interesting lee- even trump can't control it anymore, not completely. He can't even brag about the speed with which approval of the backing of the creation and privileged vaccination to place or show publicly that he got the vaccination even if he wants to take credit. I just wanted to because he also to some degree, is being led by the base that he has created right. That's exactly right They they made this terrible disease, Vision to make

virus a wedge issue where, make wearing a mass we're getting vaccinated, a political, wedge issue? And now that that those in the Did you see how ruinous that is not even they can can stop it and. I what would really great me is Do you think we had a window to turn the corner, the election of Joe Biden when the country saw literally as the capital was attacked, the terrible. and to which Donald Trump about the country there was, an opportunity for a brief moment? But that moment past because of a complete failure of courage and now because Donald Trump is running for president again, we won't That opportunely, until he is vanquished again

and so we will have to suffer his present on the world stage and all the pernicious influence of that for them? three years at the moment, not on Twitter. I want to talk about general, sixth, and you actually begin your book Describing the harrowing seen from your perspective and, furthermore we're talking about a second ago. It was very interesting for me to read early on in the text About how you and your colleagues were putting on gas masks and they. A real and palpable concern about physical danger to yourselves and in tat moment a quote from the book here. One representative dean, Philips of Minnesota yells this

because if you and who is a yelling, who is a feeling that represent a police officer who had been at the microphone perpetrating the big lie And what was the response shut up not reason not a substantive response. and it seems to me there some straight line between the two National violence and the putting up these videos and personally in the moment when believe you didn't even know this at the time that there have been chance about hanging my pants- that they still don't seem to care. can you describe a little bit more for folks what that opening scene was like I'll. Give you just one more thing to expound a punk, as is also extraordinary. You also talk about how you had republican colleagues were interested in your safety and they said

Well, if we want to cross some of these rioters, they could talk there. We pass them because, if who they were, but they said to you Adam Schiff quote you can't them see you you can't? Let them see you. Can you talk about them? I had suggested to the speaker about six months before, the election that we form a small group of members to try to it. This debate all the things that might go wrong in the election. What happens if the electoral college was? I adore if there were two states. Two slates electors sent by a state or the vice president, didn't do his job and and so we form this group and we would get together periodically and try to game out all these contingencies and there were about a thousand of them intercourse. we planned on everything except what actually happened, but result, I was on the floor speaking on January six, I was

Rebutting republican arguments and I was making our own arguments and I wasn't really paying attention to what's going on outside the building and the first time. I've got a sense of things being wrong. I looked up and to it was not in her chair and I knew that she had intended to preside the entire Joint session and then surely thereafter, these two camera police officers came under the floor and grow standing, Hoyer number two and wisdom off the floor. So fast. we're thinking to myself, I'm nervous steady, move that fast and This point, Jim Mcgovern, the Rules Committee Chair, took over presiding in- I probably should have said this. But I went up to you and I said, thank God, we have finally have somebody disposable and speakers chair which did not think it was a musing as I did, but that the police kept coming onto the floor and an increasingly die tones told us there were riders in the building. that we needed to get these gas hoods

out from under our seats, and we did it pair to get on the ground and the whole, we're in these very took seal pouches and it was you can open your eyes Yes, I struggle open the thing: everybody restricting open, the damn thing. How are you with medicine, my opening bottles and medicine. Good an emergency? Apparently, so I got my no, but I figured it out and I was helping other people open theirs and once you took the hood out, they had these fans and Suddenly, the place was just a buzz in these fans. Sound like there was again a hornets nest which only added to this real nature of things and then, as you did, I'm up in the gallery where members were really the most exposed, because the gallery. We have all these entrances to the gallery and the doors were unlocked and the insurrectionists were climate. Stairs and.

so you have members up there who were yelling down to the floor and vice versa, and I went when the finally came on, and so we have secured an exit route and you need to get out there was a real crush people suddenly to get out The house chamber and I hung back- to wait until the crowd thin to get out and that's when couple pumpkins came up to me in and said what you did They were worried about my safety and my first impulse was to be done. That they were worried about my safety. I have to say that immediately gave way to another feeling, which was, you haven't been lying about the election? I did say this out loud, but If you had been lying about the election, I wouldn't need to worry about my safety. None of us would and that, for only grew in intensity in the days that followed, because We couldn't see what was happening outside where the police were being beaten.

Gouged and bear sprayed and as I did watch that later and I saw the fury and the anger on their faces. He's insurrectionists. I realise that these people, really believe the big lie, but in the chamber these into action is in suits ties as I've taken to calling them. They understood it was big lion, and even the police put down that brutal attack, and we went back on our swore later. That night would literally let outside the chamber they still to overturn the election. Getting back to your first question, but can Mccarthy had we learn, The few more seats in the mid term election Mccarthy, been speaker here, of overturned the election and and This is why the intimate terms

It is no exaggeration to say that democracy is all about we're gonna get to them. It terms in the bleak portion of the evening's discussion which is coming up. really thought this was the bleak portion Falada bleak and where we have a full house for it, can you a question when you think that on January, six and the big lie and the physical danger that you and your colleagues were in What is the principal emotion that you feel is it is it anger? Is it disbelief? Is fusion. Is it sorrow? What what would it be? I think at the time it was disbelief I couldn't believe it was happening Billy was happening and I was When I finally did walk off the floor, I walked off with one of their public and see was holding a club. It was basically this post that had hands advertising on the top of it, and here ripped it out of the floor to use as a club

And had a member pin on and I did recognise another, never members that I have met yet even that have been therefore one or two or even three three terms- set him. How long have you been here- and he said, seventy two hours and I said seventy two hours he said here. I was just elected. I don't know what to say to him, so it looked at him, and I said it's not always like this, But but honestly I was, I was still in such disbelief. But once I really fully stood. What was happening than I, a whole different series of thoughts run through, head and and maybe because on the entire committee I worked so often with our colleagues around the world. I thought about how we now looked to the rest of the world and I've It's always been acutely conscious of the fact that

There are people all over the world who are so dependent on. As an example you ve got. journalists and turkey. Turkey is now the leading jailer of journalists in the world. And journalists from the prison cells in turn. look to us and political prisoners and Evin prison in iran- look to us and those who are the victims of a campaign of mass extra judicial killing in the Philippines. Look to us and you can go on the globe We still believe in democracy and Hungary. Look too and over the last four years they haven't recognize what they have seen an just imagine what the world was. King of us now with people climbing on top of the building, we're in a in a very bitter drug all around the world over the fate of democracy? It's not just at home around. world. China is trying to promote its model as delivering

prosperity and law and order and people should make no mistake about it, the China model is its total, terrorism, but- It is gaining a lot of appeal and so this was also one of the predominant actions I had, which was too to think what an immense set back? This is for us at home for people around the world we'll be right back with more of my conversation with congressmen, Adam Schiff. After this cover story, a new investigative podcast from New York magazine. Our first season is about a secretive underground. That's about to go mainstream psychedelic therapy. Silicon Valley loves it big name. Universities and scientists love it, but almost no

When is looking that closely at what's really about to go down lily, they know you left the second owing world, and I love you talk about the moment where something say something treacherous and obey heavy buckle. Your seep up is dark cover story. You see someone power trim because it's not the drugs. It's the people, high on power check out cover story. Apple Spotify were wherever you listen. So that's a good shag way to the work of the January. Six special

panel, of which you are a member and a further said way to some of the work. That committee is doing. My preliminary question about it is that that I don't really understand going back. That word incomprehensible. If it is the case that the people who came to the capital that day in the words of some were tourists, in the words of others, were patriots- and it wasn't that bad and there being over prosecuted in over harassed, if all that is true and their people who think that and say that people who are responsible for fermenting that insurrection, why the hell don't they come to the committee forthrightly and- about what happened and say in an Oliver North or other kind of moment for them get. You know you need me on that wall. That's why I was on the wall. Why do you have people like see, Ben and others on the one hand, defending what happened and the other hand scurrying,

In the sewer to avoid answering any questions, that's another- I don't understand that you well, you know for the sea balance of the world for four years they had every reason to believe they were above the law. they see, bandit came actually he was subpoenaed. By before committee during the rush investigation, now. This was when the wind Devon Nunez was chairing the committee. Japan, yes, and banning came in with twenty five questions that he would deign to answer everything else is servers off limits? The twenty five questions He also was kind enough to answer in advance on the answer to every one of the questions was no One of the questions was: have you met with devolution? to discuss thrush investigation. The answer is no, and I asked him have you

broke into Devon Nunez about the rush investigation in his answer guess, and that is lower, said, don't answer that question you're too late on a council. It depend what the meaning of men is, that's what he was yes folk exactly well them I asked him. Where did this list of actions and answers come from and it came from the White House. So this objective investigation. rode out bandits, questions and answers for him and in the Republicans, faint outrage at this, but did nothing an end and then, of course, bear is indicted for stealing money. For people to build the wall that Mexico is supposed to pay for by mild office. Yes, and he's pardoned. Right so no wonder he thinks he's above the law, but it, but it s a slightly different and I get all that. But why not

your moment in the spotlight and if you think that they were patriots in Europe? Hatred supporting other patriots talked to the committee well? That would be logical if they believe that so you now as they don't, he knows better. It's not really defensible and in precincts outside of your committee. They can get away with the bs. Is that fair? Well, look. I think that ban and is doing? What is because this is what Donald Trump once again this? Is how he enjoys the spotlight? Ok, let's talk about some of your enforcement abilities on the committee. Not a discussion about this so people may or may not appreciate their various ways to get enforcement of a subpoena right. You can go to court civilly. You can make a referral to the Justice Department, which is what happened in the case of steam.

Let's get some other folks in a moment and then there's this sort of ancient power of your body, the House of Representatives. two on its own enforced subpoenas. The theory is in his hand once upon a time in a galaxy far far away where of arms can arrest them. Like steel ban and who is in contempt of Congress people very confused about this, and I get the question. I must any other question? I'm sure you do to widen. The justice depart if it's a violation of a rule of Congress, and you are a comical branch of government why don't you or why can't you have a system in place as a practical matter to get the steep and ends of the world to comply, and if you don't be held accountable, can you accept folks, you don't understand why that's not possible, and is it something, although it can be misused,

on the other side, if you give too much power to the body, is it something it's a real thing for the future, given how many people are showing contempt of Congress. It is a real thing, Diana think up until the nineteen thirty's it was used, although not frequently used at that time we had a jail in the capital. So if we were going to jail complain witnesses. We would have to recreate the jail So why did you do that? Well, may come to that. We have looked at revived in the power of can inherent contempt, but also we looked at potentially modifying it, so that we can find people say twenty thousand dollars a day until they comply, the chair with either one of those things in this is The reality, which is every remedy, has its potential flaws, is we now know, I don't have a jail to jail. People in right now, but we do, a mechanism of garnishing people's wages without going to court. If we

sought to send someone out to rest some recalcitrant witness we did arrest them. They would follow Habeas Corpus petition and we would be litigating that if we wanted to garner share wages. We would have to go to court to do so. All of that will take time all the more reason to get it started well I am totally pandering to the audience, but the most the most timely thing, because it because two years with down again to get us, testimony when we the civil litigation, though the most timely way is to prosecute? and it was days after see, ban and refused to show up that we held him in contempt days later. We voted him out of the House contempt to refer to just apartment, and I think, just couple ashore weeks later, that they indicted him fifteen days fifteen days and and I will say that the most important thing about that, while the two things

the growing porn one is. He's. The validation of the the idea the ideal that no one is above the law, it's enough for me. Congress has power to subpoena Commerce loses the power to subpoena, where no more effective than a court when no power to, compel attendance, but it is also had a powerful impact on other witnesses. that is, other witnesses, have already decided because he has been secluded, that they don't we go down that route. We ve interviewed now over a hundred and fifty people so most people are cooperating at any of those people. Yet and we don't necessarily know publicly- has anyone invoked the fifth amendment right again, self incrimination, yet I dont know whether I am permitted to answer that question. I know you are showing the fifth and my question time, invoking of it, but it but getting back to your previous question, though the we haven't, you

used inherit contempt, doesn't mean that we want, but in the case of The ban and which was the first case in that case, we thought the most expeditious path of enforcement, and the one with a most teeth was prosecution. Do believe as I have said, that among the current group of folks. from whom you see testimony and documents the steed ban and had the his case for defiance absent. Really this is someone who was and in the trumpet ministration have been for years. This is someone who, what words and talking about is not within the scope of any response abilities, therefore, because you're, not even a member administration, and he simply filters. there is no right to simply say: I'm not gonna bother showing up. If you had legitimate claim to make the process requires you to appear and specify as to a particular question or particular document? What

It was your asserting and he's not even a holder of the privilege, so At every level, it was a varies, in case you to refer, the Justice Department, but when the reason I ask that is, some people may have the view that other folks Also be Charlot. Lots of folks going to be charged with contempt of Congress or Billy's be voted on and referred to the Justice Department and my senses. You not can see dozens of of and dozens of referrals. What, in your mind, is the line with its interests? Some of these people, like Jeffrey Clark, uniform a senior official suggested women. Didn't answer lot from what I understand from the reporting he did give the committing of respect to show up answered, something's, not a lot of things, but really was not forthcoming. What do you think is going to be the line, separates. The people who were can be voted on in referred for criminal prosecution

versus those who won't be, even if all of them are not particularly helpful in forthcoming. Well, we we are discussing each and every case and with How should the council to make sure that were on the strongest league, Footing in anyone, we refer for prosecution, end of the day. I think it comes down to Wilfulness Wilfulness bs. and in the most profound demonstration of wilfulness, in my view, is. Future to even appear. So why shouldn't their citizens the theme of the evening is, I dont really really fun. the strategy of some of these people. If that is so and- and I think you're right These summits people s my lawyer, some of them don't wanna

just go through the motions of appearing in being somewhat hospitable. To answering some questions. To avoid being charged. Are people like see, bandages purely performative Well, I don't know that I can get into his head and I would be terrified if I could. See, ban and at one point when we brought him into test when Russia Investigation was a man without a country have been quoted in firing. Fury furious, saying a lot of things about I'm trumpet his kids. That earned. my place on an island somewhere. You lost bright despite his platform- and I think and how that experience he needed to and did warm his way into the good graces of the former president, such that the present was willing to pardon him forth stealing from his own people My my senses, he doesn't one ever go into that oblivion again by crossing, Trump

it gets to be a hero to his base by being fully defiant. Does he not well he? that's very likely his perspective, but We do want to say that we're focusing on my colleague in Congress who have forsworn their oath, and the balance of the world that what's got me through these years is the heroes had come forward, the memory of honor vetches and the Fiona Hills, and tailors and Alexander Vitamins, even the end of the day. Even the people like Dan Coats, who was a conservative republican senator from Indiana became that of intelligence community, but refuse to carry Donald Trump lies about Russia or North

We were not having a love affair with North Korea, and was willing to risk is job and loses job any did lose his job and you know for everyone who could picture, They did. There are others who showed The ratio is bad. is for every one who could still made in theirs. I got for everyone's giants. It's a bad ratio. Isn't it you know it? No, no, it is about ratio, because we also need think about How many local often republican election. Officials around the country resisted. pressure and did their duty? There were so many points of view of our system reports. The ratio in the House of Representatives.

Praetor terrible relates to verses. However, many I'll have, the Rex represses other fundamental economic, your former colleague former chief us after the former president Can you say something about your expectation of whether not he'll be referred to the Justice Department for criminal contempt of Congress I cannot comment on that until we make our decision publican, so I will We have to take the fifth again news broke. couple of hours ago, some of you may not even be aware that the committee on which you serve has also issued subpoenas to a number of new folks Including Roger Stone and Alex Jones two more odious people in the history of America. In my view, what what's their applauding odiousness What what's the thinking behind the committee there.

and these two people who had rules on January fifth and roles. Essentially on January, six, one of whom, reportedly as his security members of one of the nationalist groups that participate in the violence on January six and both can show light on the planning, for those rallies as well as what their part. separation was and was supposed to be, and so we think the very pretty along with the others that we support, today, which include other organizers of some of those rally so an omission, don't put out a statement today saying that he knows nothing now bear in mind, this is someone who was convicted of multiple counts of lying to Congress as well as trying to intimidate other

witnesses into line to Congress, so I would take It is stated this in that light. You know. Sometimes a discussion turns to the issue of accountability, for people who are higher up, and so that people are talking about, obviously are significant and important, but there are people higher up to and including the former president of the states and obviously there's there's your select committee that you serve on that is trying to get to the bottom of things. That's very important There are also other entities in the country who have the ability to bring criminal charges. One of those is the Fulton County DA's office, who reporting and kids, that the day there is looking at dawn, trumps involved in trying to overturn the election result in Georgia and validity as before in there

these calls that he made in brave and courageous republican election officials turned away. Those efforts is also the Justice Department do. Do you think that it makes hence for ultimate accountability on the issue of doubt, trumps involvement. If the facts support this they'll trumps, involvement in trying to change an election result. Is that really the province of a local dossier in full County, or should that be the job of the Justice Department. It is predominantly the job of the Justice Department and as grateful as I am that the Justice Department has moved with a laugh ready to prosecute see, and for his wilful failure to appear, equally concerned that I dont see the Justice Department investigating either what too listen, Georgia, war? I don't see any follow up.

The indictment that already exists in your old neighborhood in the southern district of New York involving individual number, one who who was identified as directing in coordinating action. Pain fraud scheme in which the Justice Department said that Michael Code, go to jail? What's the argument you're saying the guy who was directed and coordinated, needs to go to jail, but the guy that did the directing and did the coordinating gets a pass but but to me the most significant thing is the one you mentioned, which is Georgia. There is a report of Donald Trump on the phone with bad rapids Burger, seeking to coerce him to find eleven thousand seven hundred eighty votes, the exact number he would need. defeat. Joe Biden I ain't even suggesting that he could be the subject of prosecution himself if he did not comply and I think anyone in this audience tonight who was on the phone in that country What a conversation would be under investigation by the Justice Department.

But I see no sign that this is true of Donald Trump. You don't know for a fact that have you asked the question of the Justice Department and they have refused to answer it or have you not asked the question or have you asked the question? They have told you that they are not conducting an investigation. I have not asked the question because I don't think it would be appropriate for me to ask the question That they would answer it, but I do think that we're that investigation going on they assembled a grand jury where they bring what this agreement no injury, we would know about it because Firstly, the witnesses may not be confined secrecy if their cause before injury and The reason I am concerned about this is for ass for years, the justice when it took the position, which I don't agree with, that you can't prosecute sitting president now? I think you can indict should be able to data sitting president, even if it means you differ prosecution until they leave office.

But there should never be a situation where we present can essentially out what out wait a SEC. Limitations by remaining in office, but be that as it the just Barbara for last we'll use took the position. You cannot prosecute Sitting president, if we are- to take the position as as appears to be the case that as a product, the matter. You can also not investigated ass good, a former president than the present becomes a above the law, and that would be dangerous, abstract and I think the the man that once spoke at that podium. The The present guided our country through the civil war idle. He would subscribe to the idea that you can't prosecutor president sitting, former and as Abstract matter that dangerous, but in a very concrete Jewish weren't today were that, for The president is running for president again

just downright dangerous. You mention straight lines. For about the big lie in the insurrection and want to draw two different straight line for the audience. on the day after bomber testified and Donald Trump Elite. That he had escaped the jailer for his misconduct in the rush investigation, for inviting Russia to interfere for making these russian help for lying about covering up, etc. The day after, a similar testified, Donald from was on the phone with the president of Ukraine seeking to in other countries, help cheating in another election in what I stand to have been a perfect com Have you believe that you can I believe, a straight line between the failure to hold an accountable for Russia. This conduct and the Ukraine Miss Connell. which was far worse when he was acquitted of the Ukraine missing looked in the Senate trial. You can, not a straight line between his going on to

I too cheat in new and even worse ways and the twenty twenty election. and the question is now if he should escape account Billy for all that and embryos, did again: where does that line led this country, but to utter disaster?. So now entering the bleak period of the conversation I'm not going to ask you the question and if you answered it, if I asked you answered, I wouldn't lie about it of how the Democrats are going to do in the next midterms in twenty twenty two. I want you for the purpose of this thought experiment. To just assume- and I popped the size- the Democrats lose they lose substantially and I think every political observer thinks I would have wanted to be true or not things, that is a very substantial likelihood switch stipulated that, for the purposes of discussion, can you describe for this audience What January? What will happen in the day

in weeks following January of twenty twenty three with despair to the generally six committee dealings with the current presidency states. in anything else, you care to comment on what does that? Gonna look like if the Republicans win the house back and we re Cormac Mccarthy's the road. I have enabled look a lot like that accept worse well To answer your question, but let me let me attack the premise first, because I am much more optimistic about the mid terms than the conventional wisdom. But I want people to be scared, so they will vote. no believe me, I'm happy to do my best to terrify people into voting but the reason why I'm more bullish about our chances than the conventional wisdom is the conventional wisdom that the

party in power. The White House loses heavily in the mid term, said, follow it. Presupposes another trend which did not materialise, and that is when the president is first elected to office, they sweeping office, along with them numerous people, their party into the house. That didn't happen, nobody was elected when Joe Biden elected president. We lost house members, there was a downward drag on the bottom of the ticket, and in that sense we had at least part of the correction already Now the question is: was it all the correction or merely part of the correction and what's the margin of error. Here, it's like five seats, rain five seats The way I'm approaching the mid term, it is as if we are at parity now, because of the gerrymandering that's going on by Republicans because of historic Dron. I'm assuming we start from parity and no better than parity.

we will have by the time next year comes around. In fact, we will have by the end of this year the most power for positive agenda that any party has run in mid term in, the two bills we pass and the third bill we will pass to. Why is not a wise today? Why is on the generic pole of democratic forces republican? Why are the Democrats doing worse than they ve done in a very very long time on that Poland? comes to the house. Well, for two reasons: the first is the most substantial which is we're not over pandemic people don't feel good about the future. At this moment, and what Democrats are gonna have to do? Is we're gonna have to do everything right between now and next year and work have to work towards and hope for and pray for for the countries benefit, as that was our democracies benefit that we're in? replace leisurely the pandemic and our economy and

if we do everything right and then She'll condition is better. We hold the house. you don't do everything right, Then we lose the house when we get to where you are so now. Let's go further towards that for a moment. Ok, because I'm freaked out don't forget easily. I don't number one hundred percent true that to exempt the one six committee's work is not finished, it'll be shut down on day, one Yes, do you agree that it will be done? Ok, we will be done. Do you agree that that house, if its governed by a majority, Republicans we'll find some basis on which fair or not fair, to impeach Joe Biden? Probably probably do you believe that you will be subject of an investigation by the new house. No, but I think that they will have some debate as Mccarthy's fork Sing about whether they should strip committees

limits away from Democrats. They don't like right. I get a lot of push back. I say this outlandish possibility, but can you explain this audience that that I am correct when I say There is no legal or constitutional bar to Donald Trump becoming the speaker of the house and twenty twenty three that's correct and anything of it is though he doesn't. To be formally appointed speaker. He probably wouldn't to do the work anyway, we need to do- is pick up the phone and culture Mccarthy and say this. I want you to do there is thing that don't I would ask of chemical or they would not be that do so. That's a second, quite the first is that when people understand because it comes surprise to a lot of folks and crazier. So this happened in America already in the last five years, the it's not

there's an above zero percent possibility that Donald Trump wants to be speak of House mark meadows. We talked about a moment ago when, on television, and maybe is just causing trouble, he's talked about it crazy. It is not more crazy. Four down from to seek and become the speaker of the house, to my mind, twenty three: crazy as it is, then the idea in twenty thirteen the who become the commander in chief, denies its American that's an important thing to to recognise, and then the core it. Is you re entering point that he doesn't need that, but you can also the argument he'd be in the spotlight. Maybe get a twitter account back. He can cause a lot of mischief. He can make your binds life miserable and I know it's work presence. He was also work and he managed to have a lot of executive time there also, but is something we should think about, will let me give you the nightmare scenario worse than that, yes, we'll be

what you're describing is the precursor nightmare, while thou again so, let's get to twenty twenty four for, people should be under no illusion that Donald Trump is not running proposed he's running for present nearly hundred percent. Yes, yes for three rising so too. What do you know? Why do you think so? First, because it would be intolerable to him to see anyone else get the spotlight like Josh Holly? Yes, I'm in the idea of Donald Trump sitting in Morocco. Watching my pants or Nicky Hayley or anybody as there but a nominee would be it drive him even more insane, so he pathologically, I don't think he's not at all. These people I'm not running. but, but also you I forgive you, It is a great way to make money and the monies raising now has very loose restrictions on its use, but finally, I think he believes that, as long as he is a relevant political player, he cannot be jailed

and in this, back to orally discussion, he may be right and so he's running in- and I dont think you know again both earlier conversation. People should be under any ill. either that we can expect a prosecutor to solve that problem. This weighty runs until more made this point a couple weeks ago,. Do you agree that the overwhelming likelihood is that he gets denomination who's gonna defeat him, now he'll be the nominee he'll be than I was the one hundred percent influence and then and then not asked this question reasonable likelihood of August two scenarios that he could outright win or he could fake win you wanna put the odds, are neither of those things will, I think there's strategy is for Of all to use

big lie. Who pass a whole series of New Jim Crow laws to disenfranchise people of cholera. countries are doing that as we speak and and so I think the report is along understood. Their ideas are backward and unpopular. I and a people oh, that they lose. and so their whole business model is was disenfranchise people particularly people of color, but thereby the plan is, if that's not enough, If we somehow overcome all these efforts around the country, they were, be able to overturn the election so, nightmare scenario for me, is not election, like we had in twenty twenty Joe Biden, one handily and in six battleground states that really matter it was even close, but rather this down to a single state or maybe a couple states where it is very close,

and they use these partisans that their installing in these elections, offices to turn the result and you have Mccarthy and the speakers office, and they do overturn the election that We as the nightmare scenario, and came awfully coasted and already we came exceeds away from that happening already. and so we need to realise that what we have imagined over the last half century, all of us that girl, then the postwar war to IRAN that somehow mark receivers, inexorable that this pattern at home and around the world of everyone living with greater freedom to assess Freedom of the press, freedom of religion this was somehow on autopilot that the moral arc of the universe, maybe law, but it was bending towards justice. Well, it's not bending to its justice at the moment,

here and not around the world and there's nothing immutable about this in and we all have a role to play right now in the preservation of our democracy, we can't de the Marie Ivanovitch issue or first through the gap to show the way, but as this you're likes to say: no, your own power! We each have the power to affect our circle, stances in our neighbourhood in our community. In her statement, our country and we to be pushing back now against these disenfranchisement efforts, Congress, but also at the grassroots level around the country? We need defending these, elections, officials who are being hounded out of their posts and we're gonna to turn out every single eligible voter To save our democracy, that's the second part of your subtitle, how we almost lost, or democracy. and still could in connection with that? Do you believe

we should have a car back to the filibuster. With respect to voting rights. Absolutely, so why don't we? Why are we doing them well I often get asked a different form of that question, and I am sure you do too, which is, Immigrants play by the rules. Democrats bring a knife to gunfight Democrats, don't fight tough, like republicans in most cases answer is. I do not want to become them. I do want to hold democratic conventions on White House grounds. I too want to democratic present to enrich themselves. You don't know I don't wanna be occult what You don't want to have a call. I do not want a cult I don't want to have the attorney general intervening in criminal cases to protect people line to cover up the president. One area that stuff. but there are areas where we are playing by set of rules that don't apply to anybody else and its killings.

In the gerrymander right now we're getting killed We need national redistricting reformers, part of each one which prohibits the jet. The jury, Mandarin, every single state, but also the the filibuster Phil. Bus is not a moral issue, it's not even a constitutional issue. It is just a practice. that we are abiding by and they are not rich, because no, problem, getting rid filibuster when you want to stop the cord with conservative justices and we're going to abide by filibuster, when we could use carve out to protect people's basic right to vote, That is just so self defeating industry antecedents to all these other things, that people want a better environment, better health care, but are taxed all of it. It's it's the president to all of it. it is it is now. I will say this

is much as I am frustrated and worried in angry about the failure of any of our sun colleagues. At present I hope it changes to do something about this dance to elect more democratic to the Senate and then overturn it. If we can't do it now, and we have a fifty fifty cent now work, we'll get the back better bill pass through one of everything I wanted it, but it's still gonna, be you think it a great. How do I do I do, but the Sir, to not getting everything we want, and that bill is to elect more Democrats and go back and get more. It's not too in my view, it's not too to attack ourselves and with with a stronger majority and if we can bring the house, we could go back

do any anything that we were unable to do with a fifty fifty Senate, we have gone for a long. While I could speak to you, as I said, backstage for hours and hours. I think you have been not just an important voice, lotta people of voices, but you will have been a person of action because you have the privilege of the position that you have. You continue to have that privilege. I respect you in so many ways, most importantly, how you care about the country. I think this book is very important. I think the challenge for us is very daunting. We joked about things being bleak. You know things are potentially very bleak, and so I think I speak on behalf of I'm sure everyone when a thank you for your answer

Thank you for how much you have fought for and tried to protect the democracy that so precious in this country. I wish you a good evening. Thank you very much. Thank you very much my conversation with congressmen shift continues for members of the coffee insider community to try out the membership free for two weeks at the Capitol come slash insider again, that's cafe: dot com, slash insider I want to read the show this week with special note to some of my favorite people, all of you as Thanksgiving approaches tomorrow. I hope many of you are able to take a moment to slow down and reflect goes without saying that we had an incredibly hard few years This is now our second thanksgiving during a pandemic and was

figuring out how to gather safely and take care of our families and communities. Many people have lost loved ones, and will gather this year in remembrance honouring the lives of those who couldn't be here as you and as we know, the news never stops and it can be pretty overwhelming, but I want to take a moment to say before we break for a few days. Thank you Well, even sticking around since the beginning, when we first launched stay tuned over four years ago, or whether this your first episode. Thank you for being a part of this community for sending us your thoughts in your questions in your stories and for caring about the state of democracy and our country,

of course, none of this will be possible without every single one of you. So on that note, I wish you all a very, very happy thanksgiving. However, you are spending it. I hope you eat some good food, maybe even ovary, take some time to relax and maybe even turn off notifications for a day and, of course, we'll see you back your next week, because the news never stops stay tuned. That's it for this episode of stay tuned, thanks again to my guest congressmen, Adam shift. If you like what we do, in review to show an apple pie casts or wherever you listen. Every positive review helps new listeners find the show

some of your questions about news, politics and justice tweet them to me at Pre Perreira with the hashtag aspirin, or you can call and leave me a message at six hundred and sixty nine, two hundred and forty seven, seven thousand three hundred and thirty, eight that's six thousand six hundred and ninety two for. Crete or you can send an email to letters. A cafe, dotcom stay tuned is presented by cafe and the Vocs media podcast network. The executive producer is tomorrow, supper the technical director who's David Tattershall, the senior producers or Adam Waller and Matthew Billy, and the cafe team is David. Kurlander Samos her statement, no Ozil, I not Weiner Jake Kaplan Chris Boyland, Sean Walsh, Chelsea, Simmons and Namitha Shah. Our music is by Andrew Dost. I'm your host Preet Bharara stay tuned.