Advertising weak New York returns this October eighteen to twenty first, with a hybrid educational and entertaining experience, join great minds from brands, agencies, tech and media companies for four days of inspiration lie from Hudson yards or stream all sessions from home and on your schedule with alive podcast, recording of New York, magazines, Pivot C M, O keynote presentations, fiery debates and interactive workshops on the latest trends. You won't want to miss this. Here's, a dummy New York for tickets and more information, gonna advertising. We don't come hither. Its NEO ever tell editor in chief of the virgin host of the virtuous in Dakota. The verge is turning TIM this year and were celebrating live in New York City on October, twenty second, in twenty third, with an epic today of course, I'll be there, along with other notable journalist virgin some incredible guess: immersive tech in our experiences already Jays and great near.

tricks for a limited time or offering vocs media contact network fans, one hundred fifty dollars off our standard tick go to the virtual com, such on the virtual tickets and enterprise code dollar, sign nine nine. Now a czech I'd love to see you, from CAFE interview anyway, city is welcome to stay tuned. We brought Things I think, is really interesting. We have a narrative unless, but on the statement of the crime for George Papadopoulos, there are hence of what was said and done that it makes clear that there is a lot more to the story than we have that's my guest on show today, Emily and as a former attorney general of the stay of New Jersey and teachers, and when you Moscow and for a long time she served in a lot of different roles. She's been local prosecutor. Three general. The state federal prosecutors knows about

well, she's, also work in the Senate. In things like this break, like the news about the mother indictments she's a person whose brain I really liked effect and an eye of down all the news coming out of a special council Bob Mothers Office this week before I get to that, I wanted to say a brief word about the horrible tragic terrorist attack that occurred in lower Manhattan week. As you know, I was use attorney in New York for a number of years and are most sacred responsibility was protecting homeland and defending against terrorism. There were two serious operational terrorists that I had to deal with, along with a joint terrorism, taskforce and others for prosecutors. In my office looked round the clock, one was a times square bomber, final, shes, odd, back in May, a twenty ten and the other. More recently, augment Rahim was convicted, convicted trial. Recently for being what the press press the Chelsea bomber, he, blew up a bomb made in a pressure cooker in a dumpster in Chelsea part of Manhattan, and so this week. The first thing I want to say is house

Everyone in New York is but resilient. Everyone in Europe is when someone commits a terrible horrible, violent act like this. You become both sad, you become angry at the person who did it and you all think. What have you recover from it? What's amazing about New York were of lives from us all. My professional life is it. This is the most resilient strong City. I know I lived in New York in Manhattan when nine eleven happened, so in people's in your city, strong. They know what you're talking about Secondly, I want to say is, unlike alot of cases where a person commits a terrorist act by way of suicide. Have a suspect here is not dead, was shot by police who jumped in and first responders who we also want to congratulate commend, but this person, I suspect, will be prosecuted federally because mild office, I suspect, is working hand in hand with a joint tourism.

forced the FBI agents the Nypd officers to bring federal charges against him, and even though there is a lot of talk in political circles about how this person must be declared, and me, combatant how our system can't handle it. I just want to say that, in my experience we can and we prosecuted and held to account and got life imprisonment for terrorist after terrorist acts arrest and it can be done in the right way with the system we have. So I want to say thank you to all the police officers and law enforcement folks who responded to the violent acts of this week: prayers and condolence for all the victims and their families, and if you ever wanted to sign to understand how Gillian and strong and tough New York is. The attack happened on Halloween and there was a long scheduled Halloween parade that, in fact, even in the wake of this death and violence Manhattan just around the corner that hollow

parade one off without a hitch that tells you something about New York and about New Yorkers. Now, in answer to your question, I'm afraid it's just Romania of the show. I just wondered what so far on the resignation of being of any that's gonna go under the radar and whether or not you we rely on its own a quarter baby. He asked refined like you're. So then event, I is someone unknown along time. He's that the United States like I was, but for the Eastern District of Virginia at the time. I was back in March then event it was acting deputy attorney general and he's actually the one who called me and told me that I to sum up my letter of resignation and in the person who call me and told me that he was directed by Donald Trump himself so effectively. Dana Bent is, I want to tell me I was fired. I bear it will for that, might have other opinions about how he might have handled the closing days of forty six denies its attorneys tenure in the job, but in it

your question about whether his resignation mean something, I'm not sure it's impossible to know is impossible possible to tell, but I do understand. The den event has agreed to stay on until a replacement has been nominated and confirmed, which less suggests that something crazy has happened just in the last scene of forty eight or seventy two hours, but I and I can speculate you know. Maybe data bendy is a avid listener of the show. If you ever do wanna come in the past. As you might imagine, I have some questions. I'd like to get off my chest, so we're here. This next question comes from Chris in Indianapolis, apparently were worded Indiana day. I agree. I question relates to classified information. I've always wondered how the back and forth that you have with a guess. I've never made me think of this. How do you turn on and off your brains and make sure that you're not revealing anything, classified

get your into no on everything tat. There is something that our public, something she can't say just wondering how you parts that in your public interviews and on your project, but the shell thanks. So much success, it that's a great. It is incumbent upon the person who, as sensitive infirmity, and certainly class of, information to reveal it anywhere and certainly not in public, and it's something you gotta be careful about, because you're, an ordinary human being. You know you don't have compartments at your brain in the same way that a filing cabinet does see you there, sure that what you're saying publicly in response to a question somewhere comes from the file that is open and allowed to be disk, not otherwise. We had very, very strict rules in the Justice Department. There were some information that was secret. That's a technical term there, some information that was Topsecret the summit in from there was even more sensitive than that. we actually had mild office and in other law enforcement agencies, have it something called the skiff at sea. I f which stands for sensitive.

Compartment information facility, which is basically a room where you can talk about the most secretive, sensitive classified stuff and in fact we had special computers in that room. There were offline in a particular way and you couldn't be be hacked our knowledge and certain kinds of conversation about cases could only take place in the skiff, not even in my office, which is otherwise pretty secure. Yes, we write one I'm talking only on Canada, and we were talking about the Russians by case it had a lot of sensitive information, released go who obviously every day got you know. A diet of classified information careful. We try say as little as possible about facts that might be classified in that way stated so there are multiple bombshells over this week. The news about mothers team was charging multiple people associate of adult trumps team. We address some of the issues in a special episode podcast earlier in the week, but today I gotta go We know that more depth with my

the very smart and experience guest Emerald City

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Slash prick, zip recruiter the smartest way to hire, and now let me welcome my guest and Milgram former attorney general of the state of New Jersey and friend of mine, and also at an way law school. Like me, thanks for coming things have enemy, so there are three charges. Does one indictment against Paul metaphor form a campaign manager for the down from campaign his protegee, as we would like to call it regulates and then there's a separate charge against the younger man named George Papadopoulos in he was by all accounts a form the advisor to the trunk campaign for a period of time as well then he's charge built a violation of what you and I know very well as as I want, doesn't want, eighteen unites his coat thousand and one which is now at a statute that federal officials like to use and hold over people's heads because it basically criminalize is lying to the feds. It's what you think. We feel sure that the charges were being brought

I was expecting it to be mad afford. Potentially I mean he was sort of on the list to be by words. Thinking would be charged. I hadn't followed the pop adopt as pieces, as closely- and so I had to gacek myself for a moment because this has been going on now for over a year, and so in some ways we were probably both expecting to see charges. There's been some weeks that there were charges coming that people were being walked into a court house Monday morning, and so I think it's important remember how extraordinary it is that we're seeing charges brought against people who were campaign officials who are essentially charged with riding United States who are charged with you, no tax evasion, money laundering and then to see particularly the George, Papa, doubtless piece, which I think is in many ways most interesting piece of this, which sort of gives us a little pieces. But there's a lot. That's message. I think I think without question the public. So far at least the puppet nobblers gives coat like saying over and over again puppet apple is hospital.

he sang puppet, then no, that's the doubts about the most significant for reasons will talk about being a new set of second ago that you respected BP. An important reason, we're all explained. I said I was expecting to hear who did and it might be on Monday morning in one or more for that is that Network CNN report, Friday evening, that, had been an indictment returned by the grand jury. There was sitting form by mothers special councils office. That's not good! You and I both know. That's not good is not supposed to come out, and immediately launch people sort of blaming the Mahler team, and we have no way of knowing how that happened. But it didn't come out what you think happened there. He asked my client, you know, there's all sorts of possible areas. It could have come from members of the grand jury people on the courthouse, who saw members Mars team or for any those people. If it was members of the grand jury or it was member, the prosecution team, that's that's unlawful or even

security officers or even a member of the public who see someone they recognize. You know everyone in court houses talk. There is a lot of information that goes around some of it accurate solve it not, but I am sure that the report There is in the press are out there watching eagerly to see if members of the team are coming in now how they knew that the actual indictment had been returned, I think is, is a real question, because that is what was reported on pride. It wasn't just that their witnesses going for the grand jury was that charges have been filed. For me I wasn't sure it was necessarily true when came out, because I had to get other people to confront for well, but it turned out that was true. So I want to come back to that in a few minutes. But first I want to talk about the mother team, but mother himself up and as I know, you ve moved out with him. What's your experienced by the bachelor. Personally, I'm sorry I love by smaller and I think problem

you would say the same thing I would say, which is he's. One of the few prosecutors in America and former federal agent is ahead of the FBI. Who really is beyond reproach he's just he's a straight shooter when I was Asia dealt with him on a couple matters. You know he was at the time the head of the FBI and I was running the Camden New Jersey Police Department, and so we need a lot of help from the FBI at a lotta conversations with federal agencies about getting in getting and help us with crime fighting, and so I haven't dealt with him a huge amount, but I'm about with him on a number of issues. I found him to be completely above board completely strayed, probably the lease political prosecutor and I dont think process of prosecutors as being political, but mothers just Distrait as an arrow at, and you know why things I wouldn't, I would even serve ass few breeders. Are the speculation about Mahler is sending a message right there

He's out there saying a message: other people, through the matter forward and through the puppet apple staff in my experience with Mahler, is that he is just unbelievably methodical. He's gonna go through the facts and the line he just doing is doing his job. I say this on this package before us and we will not remembered when we hardly somatic go, who you also know a guy who has subpoena power your huge budget, sixteen lawyers men with weapons hooking deploy. The need to flex comparison messages, the work itself as its message, but let no does want to back up on Mahler for a second in and take up of things. One is no person is perfect. God knows I'm not yet Amazon and and no person should be put on a pedestal with a law enforcement or otherwise, and so I dont mean that people in the country that On people going after a lion by smaller in part because they want, him to engage in certain activities and reach a certain result, and they want to pump up

when I talk about it, when you talk about em, LISA Monaco talks by method, we talk about him the position of experience in the past, and the one thing that is is bothered me that there is a movement to undermine and say he's political in some way, but just as a reminder to the to the audience who may not remembered by more began as the FBI director two days before nine eleven, two thousand one and by statute by law and FBI director conserve only for ten years, so as ten years came up, thousand eleven and absolutely not remember what happened. What happened was that Greece in the present who, whose in President Obama, Italy's head is a country of origin twenty five million people and we find something better than by Mahler and so what are? We gonna do rather than nominate some new person in their alot of people, want you raising their hand and you- and I know some of them- they decided, when extraordinary the excited to change the law, an anthem and keep him so literally, they passed a bill.

Called a bill to extend the term of the income and direct The federal Bureau of Investigation, which was a Senate bill in Us S, eleven o three in that law passed a hundred two zero in the Senate. In that wasn't partisan, completely bipartisan. So they integrate point. I think you and I both been through it. Where people don't know lands and they suspect that it's not gonna land well, and we should talk about that in a minute, but they suspect that they're gonna be additional charges which I believe we'll be, and so they are setting it up to say, the investigation is a sham politically motivated its being run, I think by people who are not herbal and they're not gonna, follow the law where it takes them and so think it's their planning the seed to frame that conversation amongst people who are inclined to believe the war

who got now mauler like people, not force meant tat, so manifold and gates were allowed to surrender. They were not treated to what a lot of defendants are with FBI, showing up at six a m knocking on the door and in telling people to put their hands up. Some people have said that unfair they are getting. Special treatment can explain why it will, it will either was or was not appropriate. What you ve, probably if rallied on this to our practice, was often when someone was represented by council and we knew that they are represented by council. We would go through the lawyers and allow, people to Sir, and only in certain circles only in certain circumstances, not not, but our practice was often that unless we have reason to believe what we shouldn't do that. But you don't let people surrender if you think that you're gonna be a risk of flight or you think you're gonna be a danger to the community, so violent,

criminals who are not aware that under investigation almost never permitted to surrender. So am I mean it's? Not it's not a function of whether or not you have money or means or lawyers, but the nature of the crime and the nature of the risk and the threat. I was a little bit surprised I'll, say why house today at Sea Marty and Unusualness circumstance. What sounded like mean this is so. This is a peace I think is really interesting hairs. That's exact analysis I would do is. Is there a risk to public safety? If you really someone and is there a risk that somebody want returnable flay? And here I agree to white collar crime? There's no evidence of any of these folks are risks to public safety, but in terms of the risk of flight, the government made serious arguments that they thought metaphor was a risk of flight, and that's why they asked for home detention, and so it is a little inconsistent with many already re, with letting somebody walk in voluntarily you think, they're risk of flight usually would go out and pick them up at six o clock in the morning or what kinds of questions do using by mothers personally signing off. Obviously, the charges

You are the attorney general of an office of how many lawyers we had nine thousand people that we had in hundreds of lawyers. I was using the smaller office. We had tune in toys for an infected toys and obviously lots and lots of things go on there and you can't personally micromanage all of it, but their certain kinds of things. that are likely to be signed off by Bob Mahler himself by mother, who was the person who was appointed on these attacks angry wanted by by no rod roses time. Do you think that Bob Mahler in were speculating again? But you know someone intelligently. I hope do you think about mothers personally signed off on the no knock search upon metaphor home. I think so. I think I would have wished have, I would have I didn't have time I mean yet. I would have by what he wanted to know should Bhamo are approved the request for whom the tent my senses in a case like this. He will approve every high level request court filing decision, everything that is going to have an impact on the outcome of the case in that's, that's a critical question of do ask for it

you're, not so that their their investigative interviews that are happening This had been review. We know the George Papadopoulos was interviewed in and cooperated and pledge guilty. I guess question laptop were confused about what my job was Is my mother personally conducting any those interviews now now not hands. I now is the guy I once came out of a train We had a significant case against the huge head of hedge funds and run. To run them in a guy came out. The train in the guy looked at me lies in our entire. Aren't you in court, one or two in court and said in a what this man is talking about. Isn't it you have a trial against the YAP against the big catch? One guy I said. No, I have. I have people actually do it soaps. Obama is overseeing you think's overseeing things, but he's delegating all of this authority to his well. If it was you, I would think right. The FBI,

do an interview. They'll, do a right up of those in our views are three o to write. The little do sort of a written record of a career choices is this is the form number on which FBI agents make a record of interviews what they do and I would assume that as they're doing these interviews, their writing them up Mahler, seeing all of them, and he is able to help to erect the lawyers and say: let's go interview this person next, these five people are on our list and I sort of imagine, there's a White Board in the office and they ve got these lines of inquiry, and so the man afford gates line is one of them, pop up less there and then there's other right. There's the Trump Junior meaning with cushion are manifold there. So they are different. Sort of this is a pretty large. I would think investigation into the links between the campaign and the russian gas

hence efforts to impact the election, and so my guess is Mahler sort of in the nerve centre of that trying to figure out what are the pieces? Who, where is the evidence who have we talk to? Who haven't we talk to and is trying to really bring that thoughtfully to gather manifesto whiteboard inside your Silicon Valley thing to me with the wide born, but yeah you have different people were looking at different things, and I assume that the team of fifteen or sixteen lawyers, is divided up by task. For example, there are three signatures on the plea agreement between the special Councils office and the lawyers for George Papadopoulos was accused of lying to the government, I presented to those people, Junior Reid and Andrew Goldstein, and I became prosecutors together. She in Washington and I in seventh district we were trained together, actually hit this playing tonight at the Justice Department. like the knack. Hundreds of people know it hundred years ago and Andrew ghosting I hired into the southern district and promoted to be that the chief of the publication,

so I know them to be tremendous, an android or even better, because I supervise them and he oversaw lots of important corruption investigation. So I know the least those two and another person. Why don't know errand zaleski they're doing own thing, but their presumably coordinating with each other as well, and probably author Mahler misdirecting in thinking about what their next steps are going to talk about the Papadopoulos charge, because that significant for lotteries and one. What clearly happened earnings as laid out in the documents? Fbi agents went to interview George Papa They said we want to interview you about certain things. They told him that it was almost like it's a long and bogus asylum here. Is that if you lie to us, that's a crime and we're gonna. Ask these questions about your country for the various people who were interfaces, that you saw interfaces with members, the russian government in connection with a campaign, and then he pursued to allow them that's right,

and whether or not his interactions with a professor whose described in the in the paperwork twas a conduit to the russian government, whether or not that was criminal in nature, while they're trying to figure out if its Camilla nature the lying about it. After being warned about, it is a crime and you think, is a very important crime to prosecute idea. Do you that if we had more on him, they were the main amply guilty that could we would have made. I would have as well as well, but that fight It's important to know that when their two things one is that sort of speaking more generally that there are times when you're you're doing a plea agreement on someone that you wouldn't make them plead to all charges that were potentially against him, and I don't think was the case here again. I do think we just important that we understand that. Sometimes you were quickly to bring a charge because you turn a flip them It's happened confirmed a hundred percent, but I'm pretty pretty sure meet him that, as we have four lotteries and sent a flip someone is in our. Me, no old fashioned law enforcement parlance to try to get to convince someone to take risks,

ability for their conduct and to cooperate with the government and provides annual assistance in some way and mentally testify against other people testify against employers. In this case, I've been a lot of speculation about what happens when a run through with you, what you think happened says he some commentary and see some stuff that doesn't make a lot of sense. Even coming from academics, who went to think it over the court room but like to talk about it, no offense to them, so George Papadopoulos, it looks like was arrested on July twenty seventh, something like that. I didn't plead guilty until October fifth early October lotta weeks that have gone by, and I have seen some commentators say that the special Council offices just that he engaged and proactive cooperation by proactive collaboration. I presume they mean that he helped them while being secret tool of the government that now the severally mean that he wore a wire now I dont think that necessary means

water? Is it? What does it mean? There are a lot of reasons. I thank you and I could think about between the time he was placed under arrest in time he put guilty figuring out in a wood, he cooperated getting access to emails. It is potential a viable than he would have. One worn a wire, but by no means, I think, necessarily the case here, but the and also they're going to debrief him they figure out whether the sign him up as a cooperate or even when you say debris from you mean what what I think we would think about on foreign agents, is that they would sit in a room and they would want to know everything he knows from the first days of interaction with the campaign till his interactions with all the people that are, part of the investigation and they would want to also figure out if he's gonna be a call Fraid of European assigned somebody out up? You have one critical question which is to go in, But he's already lied to you, which is: are they going to tell you the truth and so bomber?

and his team are not going to cooperate in my view, somebody who they think is still lying to them, and so you know the agents would have spent a considerable amount of time figure out. What does he know? Who does No it about what evidence is out there that they can get, and is he being forthright with us now that he's come forward and an changed? His story is the change story, the act one. So here's a question. Probably a lot of people are asking themselves as are listening to us, talk if you're trying to get someone operating and someone else and testify in trying to make sure that, in order to do that, they will have to give to believe that they're telling the truth. This guy is just been convicted of line So how smart is it prosecutor's office, to rely on the future. Testimony of a guy who's. Only I'm so far has been to lie to them right in this. This is a great question. I think it is something that, if you're not part of this world, it would be hard to understand, but will, but ultimately a jury has to understand. Yes, oh so you literally the kinds of people who are listening to this Parkhurst who number in the millions mill

at least in the tens you're gonna, have to understand right and so they come into a jury supposing testifying someday and the defence lawyers going to say, as you know, the word of this mandate Carpet ATLAS the reason he is here? The only reason he's here is because he lied to the federal government heat and light body in ordinary person. He lied to the very aid. By the way who are now telling you in this coral and prosecutors were telling you this quorum to believe him, nonsense here and there, and that would be the exact perfect argument for the defence lawyer to make in in the closing of the trial and what the prosecutor would. I think says, look here and he shouldn't have lied and there's no, you know they're there. excusing by the government for that kind of conduct, but there would be an understanding that people often do lie under these circumstances, in I've tried a lot of human trafficking cases. I've never had a human trafficking case where the victim was completely forthright, when they first locking the door, and that is really hard

for a jury and for other people to understand which is here, the police, your law enforcement. Why would you not partake your told if you lie you're gonna be convict potentially convicted of a crime. So I think you have under that they give to make sure that the jury under and that there are a lot of reasons. Why people are not forthright they're scared? They dont know what there looking at and then they become they come to tell you. It also really important to understand that at the point where you going You have a lot of other evidence at will corroborate these stateliest restoration to correct. So we would in court is, as you know, we have a witness whose testifying who has played pledge guilty of a crime. Like George Papadopoulos will have it. We are not asking the like the witness, yet we are asking you to decide without you believe, the witness and because his peculiar to crime, in this case its its relevant crime,

lying, you have to ask yourself what are his incentives now? That was incentives when he was approached might be to protect the campaign or protect himself in. Maybe he was fearful and intimidated but his incentives now are to get lenient the only way that will happen if the prosecutors and the court believe that he's telling the truth going forward. So he doesn't have an incentive to lie anymore and that's powerful argument to the jury and second, the collaboration he talked about, given that special councils office believes that he will be believed If and when it has, the idea that decision of who you sign up as cooperators and who you don't is a really critical one in their times where you know you don't have it ways, nobody will cooperate with goes forward right. So sometimes it's not it's not your decision, but there are times where you do. You know get to make this assessment. You said just because he was a proactive cooperate or towards profitable. Didn't necessarily where wire, but he might have. Yes, I think so, let's go about brazilian Joe. I had people

You know many many many times you approach them. They flip they won't do anything to help themselves, their cooperative. They found this and then they wear wire and then they try to call people fewer above them. He doesn't was pan out because sometimes you get a guy who wants, helpful to the government and he calls up any so clunky about another, not actors, some of them, and so clunky in saying, like remember that, guy, you told me to kill, will raise the money hate gap and that in the end, the higher up guy in the mob hangs up the phone and never speak to him again, there's also times where people at this point in the case, in a that, more team has been interviewing, so many people and their their deep into this, and so enough people have lowered up and are gonna, be very hanky on talking to some afraid of whose cooperating whose wearing wire, I think that include heavy by the well being of the special for a special their term of our yeah and what are the odds that toward will everything's whirling around

wore a wire and then successfully got other people like Jeff sessions or other folks who he gonna, fuck em an incremented themselves. Yeah, I mean it's again we're speculating, but I can't imagine that he got sessions on the phone. I think you know sessions is one of the people and the meaning that tried to shut down or our towards tried to sort of shot. This down, I think, would be particularly cautious on this at this point, but I do think people like manner for their it's been a search warrant on his head. He wants to know what the government is doing. He's the former campaign charities Obviously, a pretty centre target of the ongoing invest. Nation, and so could he get other people to talk to him. It is really interesting question and I think also mean there's a lot in the charges that may look like from what we know. Clovis, who was one of the co chairs of the campaign, is admitted that he's the senior it was one of senior campaign officials whose mentioned, and so there are those folks and then they're, probably other folks. There are a group of people who were part of that.

team, and so what's interesting to me is he could have worn a wire against the people to whom he reported. He could have also warn a wire against other members of the admit of the campaign to embrace mean right is very possible. The likelihood that he did it and did it while she was low agri, but also of the fact that we knew about a charge, Coming on Friday. We knew that the fact of genuine fry it there was a charge coming as soon as Monday and people speculate upon an affordable speculated Michael Flint, and she may still dropped. I agree, and it was also George Papadopoulos who break I never heard of it. You have heard him of never know. What does that tell you about who might currently being? crosshairs already. You know be in trouble or plead guilty that we don't know about you, and I expect that there were people who are charge that we still to come I don't know about- and I think you know this

happens when there's public conversations about cases and we don't have the inside information of investigation, where we really do focus on the sort of top targets and we sort of focus on the people who are known to us. Like you know the campaign chairman and others by all these people who reported to those folks who are definitely in this chain and having these conversations with members of the russian government or people who purport to speak on behalf of the russian government, and I do think worth also saying that the Mueller team is interviewing everybody, which is exactly what you would do in a crops in case like this, because you need to know what two people know. They can obviously testify against your case. If you don't have a deep understanding of what happened. Where were people? What were they doing? And so I completely agree with you that there's more to drop and that we probably won't know who many of them are. So what you things can happen next and who are the other people who should be.

sitting around worried that mothers gonna come knocking yet so here that people who I think would be worried, and we should we should sort of talk about and again speculate on. A couple of you know if we think about there are different people looking at different lines of inquiry. In the case, then, one really interesting line of inquiry. I think, is into this meeting with Donald Trump Junior with Paul Matter forward with jarred cushion are and what this russian lawyer concern that suit distressing. Her name I come from Ukraine. I shall be able to do this on my dad's. I have its own area and I think is the so: let's go vessel in the sky, the sauna sky, Hungary's Andrews Nodding, as was so let's go so there there's a meeting that has been acknowledged by Donald Trump Junior and there's email, communications about it and their seeking dirt on Hillary Clinton, as part of the meaning and so, which really is to me as if you and I were wearing our prosecutor, hats and thinking about who would potentially tell us about what happened inside that meaning I don't think it's a russian lawyer. I dont think

you see you and I both know family usually does not cooperate, and so that takes kush, her and trumped Junior out of the box. It leaves us with Pollyanna for it, and so we understand at this point my for it is not a cooperative, but it is a really interesting question to me: you know: there's now gonna be enormous pressure on him. I agree with you that I think the charges are very strong. There's a paper trail of this money. Serious charges you ever seen against Africa and its most. It's basically no because you're lying about foreign accounts and lying about whether you were an agent for a foreign power. I think that's right, but I also happen to think that you know we live in a world where I would argue that that Russia is an existential threat to the United States in many ways that they are committed to destroying democracy. They are known to be committed to computer.

Gang and to really trying to figure out? Can they undermine governments? And so yes, in some ways it looks like he was very greedy right there. Seventy five million dollars and in money that was laundered and tax is not paid, but there is also this element of he's doing things on behalf of a foreign government without being honest about it, which we prohibit, because we are concerned about foreign governments influencing just like were concerned about them. Influenza elections were concerned about them lobbying here without without knowing who were there lobbyists, and so there is a piece of that I think is more than greet that I think really does and again in a mother's charged with investigating These links to the russian government and metaphor is is a clearly working with a pro russian ukrainian government, and so you, I suspect, or both not big believers. The incidence of right, and also sometimes it happens. It does, and I must say never, but would you have hired? You know maybe one for prison the future and I would vote for you, but if you were doll trumpet the time would you have hard comment

in the first place, knowing some of his entire. They have never been asked if I was Donald Trump before you're. Just just consider that for a moment, no, no, I mean, I think the campaign is filled with people that you and I wouldn't have higher dinner obviously not the prosecutor's office, but we wouldn't have higher abundant about ever bigger and bigger shop. I did work as an assistant pastry sigh, when I was in Moscow? I know that. That's why I ask you value their backs work. I don't go back where Leclerc right now, you're Astoria daughter, you show your earlier liters of wild, but don't ask me to make any thank those on a long time ago I can make toll. Has cookies there

No, I mean it's easy for us to say this with hindsight, but he he is clearly political, operative and that's been and a lobbyist and that's been his calling card and his claim to famine and why he's made so much money? Do you think he was approach master corroborate before he was charged? I think Probably was, I agree. I agree. I think it's hard to say for certain, but again because there's this other meeting there's this other sort of peace that we do not have information on. But we know metaphor is the only I think right now. The only person is the likely give us information about it. I think you would take that shot and say: look. No. We have you dead to rights on Fraud may be dead to rights on money laundering and that's the kind of thing you and I did all the time and our people did all the time and I do another line prosecutor. You figure out what overwhelming, Convincing evidence, a compelling evidence you have against someone. If you don't have everything else worked out yet, and you do what you

the lawyer, and you say, as you said, you just described your guy's dead to write an ex wincey. We can prove it without witnesses. We can prove it through documents. You didn't file these registration forms they were supposed to file, so this would be a good time to come in and my speculation is that's how we got out that he was told that comment effort was told to expect an indictment that was part of the approach discussion yet never makes to get him to flip, but I also don't think it's over so rights white. So this maybe people don't understand who have not been to this process discussion charged, someone thought it is now and in fact I've had a lot of cooperators have come on after they ve been charged before trial in the middle of a case, while the investigation is pending the wise at. If so, with the lawyer, if the prosecutor comes to you and says you guys get right on the setting up and they go, the client is it. You want to cooperate and admit your guilt, they say no it because they think the prosecutor,

bluffing, I think sometimes I may think the prosecutions buzzing or they may think that they have a better chance. It beating the case than they actually do, and you know in the heat of the moment, think a lot of people to to plead guilty have to accept responsibility have to say under oath that you committed I am, and I think a lot of people are not there. This is moving. I know the public, the people listening to us yes, I think so, but this is moving quickly if I've really fast. it's very fast, and so You know all of a sudden you ve one day I ve got federal agents, doing a search warrant of your house, not long after you, ve got somebody coming you to say, plead guilty. You ve committed crimes. I think an x factor year. That was not the case in any of the cases I ever did was that it is possible that Paul metaphor is looking for a presidential, pardon or thinking that that, if he's convicted, he doesn't actually go to prison for the hunter, eighty one months said he could get wet or his though his calculus I dont know, is different from the average rate most people who we prosecuted words

Now, I think of adding Obama's got my back a nice tourism that crazy to you, I mean it is. It is so hard for me to think about, and it is crazy or may, because I think to be a prosecutor means that you very much believe in the rule of law and that you follow the facts where they take you and when you, but there's, a violation of the law you charge and that there's then decisions that are made by courts and judges and prosecutors about what accountability looks like and what that sentences might be if your conviction of a crime, and so the idea that you know we saw this with Trump pardoning, the sheriff Joe or pale we ve already seen him literally are pale, was standing in front of a court of law was told he would be held in contempt if he did not change his position, refuse to change his position. was actually convicted of of after being warned and then was pardoned, and you know I think, a lot about the rule of law and how important it is for us to be governed by that and not by whim by fancy by anger by politics by any of that and then so. The whole idea to me that some online

metaphor could be sitting back and saying, while I think trample have my back its deeply troubling I don't know it just in my head. That is one of the factors that I would be thinking about, and we know it So I agree with all that and I think this you know this cloud of potential pardon or the sunshine of a potential, the rainbow potential pardon whenever idiotic metaphorical. With four to have that looming, nothing is problematic, but how do you think pinafore assesses the likelihood of being pardoned? dont from call up paramount importance, aid, listen buddy! I got you or send word through somebody else, and you think do you think is easier universe in which you think that, in the end in advance sort of promise- and nothing has happened at all- but if it did is an obstruction It certainly feels like it right. It certainly feels like a misuse of the rule of law and of the ability to pardon to think a little more about, but it it. It strikes me that have trump,

an information or sent word to mount, afford that hey don't worry about it. I got you would have a change. What I say I feel like I'm Unalaska glass with professor free. far from it you're very good student lived from sent wording that listen unaware and he's out you like every maybe a crazy habitable, not saying this is at all true, but just to explore in what is happening around here. So people get a sense of the issues Are we to blog about all that stuff? All that way, all those? What I don't need, a blog about all the ways I colluded with Russia in so, if it makes you feel better from their pardon you to keep your mouth shut and it was, it was basically a deal raise had in

to stop you from giving information of the government he added might incriminate mean other people, I'm gonna, pardon you desire closer obstruction. Yes, I think that's a really interesting question too, because I would assume that part of Mars investigation will centre around Trump firing. Call me that these questions of what are they doing to try to stop the investigation and what would they do, and so it certainly becomes more interesting. If there's this exact quid witches look, you could give information, that's potentially very harmful to me in a prosecution of me or others around me that feels a lot more directed towards trying to prevent the fair administration of justice. Now again, it's a little more complicated because metaphor is not obligated to say anything. He's been charged with a crime is a fifth amendment. Right did not say anything is absolutely while within his rights not to do anything,

What do you think, generally speaking, when deals are better? May there not expose it retorted rewards in people's minds. Everything down trumps lawyers are doing in dealing with this house client if they have my client. I'm very difficult held very difficult yeah. What makes him to sell the tweeting? between is is exhibit a. I think, for. Why he's a very tough client you no exit b is look you you ve got him a mean. Think about this. You ve got him publicly on vat, telling the Russians asking the Russians to release Clinton's emails. You ve got him publicly saying that he fired call me because the Russia Investigation, and so he has his own worst enemy and it is very difficult to defend someone who's, not taking advice or council relatives open. every second, so you have said many times. No, not you should only want, would bomb holidays in connection with these charges and how they proceeded unfold, but also a dial trumped. Us, yes,

I myself, you know this is an ongoing conversation and at some point become relevant in their pictures of Donald Trump in the room with George Papadopoulos, it will become. There will be real she's about what was said then end if Trump is tweeting about what bend or what was said or in any way has a conversation that is related to this? Much like his public statements about firing. Call me tat is all part of the situation of the record and so on. saying he said anything on twitter that I think opens two more exposure since the indictment down on Monday, but which are just came to him, but he could. But he could people understand now, from this conversation from the charges for puppet oblast. If you lied when FBI agent during an interview that the crime yes, but if you just lie in a tweet, if not a crime, Let me have your first of you know, which is good for hobby alot of people. people, maybe don't always get that, doesn't mean that you can tweet with impunity

because, even though a lie in a tweet may not by itself subjected to arrest and charge lying in tweets about things that are the subject. Matter of another case is evidence that you were trying to cover something up so, for example, have ensued. What you were suggesting it dont, search, tweeting saying he had no idea, but extra lions e any tries to cast aspersions on people saying those things in an attorney out, that's the wrong. Then a prosecutor gets up in court and says why was Donald Trump lie? about this. Why was he saying these things into saying these things he didn't want us to find out ex, and then it becomes relevant state of mind, and I actually vs that that his twitter feed, the things he says in tweets are the the relevant to understanding what, in the in the mind of Donald Trump, because everything else comes An ordinary white House

is written by Russia, steady process by seventy five developmental and vision of the roof. Tat. Yes, and it's very easy to guess he drank it- is my personal complete with there's no intermediaries comply with misspellings income if ye and whatever else so to the extent he saying things that are false, if he ends up doing that about matters in the jurisdiction and focus above mothers, team that could come back. Item heart, and we should talk about the instruction peace, because please, a hundred per cent you, but also. I think you and voting this a thousand times that its often the cover up, not the crime that gets people people really do not come forward there, not forthright, and then there is evidence that proves that we know, for example, here with George Papadopoulos. Doubtless they ve lied and so I think we should all be on the look out for the cover up could potentially be a lot of what we see coming out of future charges. How confident or you that we will see more charges. I believe we will Emily You mentioned Flynn before I think by any account,

We would see that there are potential charges against Flynn both for lying on his security application and for failing to register as a foreign agent. Just like Paul man has been charged with here, and so it is clear to me then that's, probably the tip of the iceberg- that's potentially out there, so I do think we will see additional charges. I agree completely that you call wade. Somebody like Papadopoulos, because they will give you information about other people right right. You don't cooperate somebody against themselves. You cooperate them to get additional information, have a narrator, whose actually is the room whose, on the emails, whose part of these conversations about these arranged of meetings of conversations about getting dirt on the Clinton camp, and so it is very clear that he will be used to further the investigation against other people. Is there any universe in which you think, ultimately, Donald Trump himself does not get interviewed by the special care office, I was thinking as we were just talking now about this conversation at the FBI shows up in tells you outside. I think he does get interview. I think he does get interview

and I I mean is reassuring destinations of is a hard call right and I think what why is it a higher court, while he's he's a submarine the he claims he wants to cooperate. He said in a tweet once that I'll I'll testify when he was being accused of things by Jim call me. You know one on it. While it still a minute the he is still the sitting present of the United States, and so it's an extraordinary step. I can't think Ojo ass. We would surely ask a hundred percent, and I think I would insist right, so I think, if, if we're really sitting here, thinking what more does I dont think if you We like you need to talk to Trump before you close the case raised or browser for you make a decision about a lot of the pieces, so the timing of when you speak to Trump is when I suspect the end. You know it. again it's hard cause, we're speculating on a lot of different pieces. You can also you him more than once, and you make a good point saying that you know he has said that he would be glad to be beat D did we interviewed, and so maybe that is the conversation. With his lawyer, which is like we wanna Tokugawa, may come back and talk to me

for them. I hardly need to have enough information, though, before you go to him because I says did there are parts This case is the special prosecutor in the team, understand or have a pretty good sense of based on cooperators, based on an emails based on any other evidence that sort carburetors. I suspect that there still also a lot that they don't know that there still trying to figure out and What trumps involvement was, so you would certainly want to have as good a sense of involvement as you could when you went in that being so. If you are at a point where you felt like we don't know, we just have a lot oceans for him. I think you do go in and you ask for that area. Let's say: investigators and special councils office go an interview. Donald Trump need agrees to be interviewed voluntarily and then, while being interviewed, tells lies about his interactions with russian government or some other things that are demonstrably p.

Thirdly, false to the same degree and the same severity and seriousness, the George Papadopoulos line two investigators. If it's you after that, do you cause there's no one for Belgium to flip against? I don't think you do. You recommend rigging referral to the. High representatives for the impeachment president. That's a good question. I mean I think, the tricky pieces that there are a lot of their allotted scenario that we're so rebuilding on. To get to that point has worked out with exactly. I do feel like I'm. Unless I think the answer is yes, buying clear. The answer is yes that you, though the president lies in the same way, the George Papadopoulos did that you would think that refer to the house, yes, we're impeachment yeah, I mean I think. Look there's a lot of debate, and I'm I'm not the foremost expert on this. Whether or not the president can be charged with a crime. I think the guy,

oh consensus right now is that the proper mode of dealing with criminality by some sitting in that office is to refer to the House of Representatives, and so I think the first she is, you know, do you have a thousand and one you have. I'm that's been committed because the present is not been forthright when you interview him and then, if that's the case, how does that get handled? Is it? You know, is an indictment. Obviously soccer be guilty plea in oh, and I think right now, from from export I've read the right measure is going to that sort realise that there has been a lot of talk about whether or not the trumpets sitting the stage to have by mother fired him. Would you think about that. I think you know I mean here's was hard to know there. That is definitely the narrative. That's coming out I find it very hard to believe that that will happen and I hope not to be proven wrong. We both know that serve impossible to predict. Will happen with this straighten, but Mahler was appointed by the

pity. Attorney general he's been given this authorization which allow, some to investigate everything that is currently investigating, and so do I think the present? could fire him or cut cut his budget something like that obviously some unease, the president of the United States, and there a lot of different lovers he could have do. I think it would be generally down the answers now if he would cause Mahler, be fired or defend him completely. As far as how big a crisis that is for the rule of law in a country where we say Lance yeah, I think that's an unbelievable prices for the rule of law, because this is not an investigation into it. just money laundering or tax fraud right. This really at its heart is an is, is a question of did foreign government attempt to info an influence, one of our democratic elections, and I think we can forget what an important question that is because look we can about elections, we can fight about politics, but at the end of the day, those are our fight to have in the lobby really prohibits foreign government

from coming in and influencing the those elections, and so it's court, our democracy and who we are that, I think it's important to remember that so couple that mandate tomorrow with the fact that he has now brought charges against people that we have enough. unity have actually committed crimes, and so I think that that, certainly in my gets harder and harder to follow this fire? The special prosecutor, he continues to make cases that to me to be very strong cases against people who are involved at high levels of the campaign, and so do I think its past. I think anything is enough. None of us should be batting based on. We saw this week. Are you more or less convinced that there was collusion during the campaign and the russian government. So anything, I think, is really interesting. We have it narrowed it on this, but on the statement of the crime for George Puppet Apple, us, there are high, of what was said and done, that it makes clear that the special prosecutor's office, known lot more about those conversations about what quote dirt. They had

an Hillary Clinton when that happened, what they ask for what the commerce there were about whether it was you know we don't know yet the conversations about. Can you please release information where they just about? Oh hey. We have This information, we really dont, know what I would say there's enough in the charge. the statement of crimes to sort of make us think that there's a lot more to the story than we have done. So, even if I were to say I would say we do know a lot of things. We know that the emails were hack, note the emails were publicly released. We know that there were a lot of conversations between a political campaign and a foreign government. We know that some of those conversations related to information that would influence and election, and so I think again, I'm not a big believer in coincidence. I think there is a lot here that need to be explored to understand work.

Did. The Russians in fact conspire with members of the campaign to influence our election, and I certainly think this week brings us with puppet apple us a step closer. That means you different wanted and question. I love wondered if I don't like went sent from our skill, wanted him, how much of it Waken was this week's news. You know a question. I gotta give a number two. Ok, I'm gonna say seven, I'm ominously, seven and I think if this were any other straight, I would say ten, but I do feel like there have been so many shells it's almost and again. This is. Why said at the beginning, we have to remind ourselves of how extraordinary it is that were even having a conversation about a foreign government influencing democratic election for president of the, the state, so I feel like when I remind myself of that. It feels like a ten but in the context of call me being fired in the context of Donald Trump Juniors admissions about walking into that meaning understanding that there would be dirt or looking for birds

and he would love it right. I mean in in the context of all these other pieces. I think I'm gonna go seven, I'm sort of wood, seven long lines of what you said, because Donald Trump effectively foreshadowed this, by saying during the campaign. I could shoot a guy on Fifth avenue and my I would still be with me and now you actually, I believe he shot a guy that I'm aware of but there's all this swirl of criminal activity of the part of people who are very close to him and one guys plead guilty and It doesn't matter meeting any this matters ultimately to how the nations out or what happens to the administration of the presidency, waited a bunch of lawyers talking about stuff like us, an apothecary on the new. Does it matter, so you you're right about what I think. Donald Trump

done is gone around than traditional norms, of how people get elected, of how people communicate with the public and he's created his own path through twitter and through other things that he's right his bases, I think politically, a hundred percent with him. We live in very complicated and difficult times and on just a lotta levels, and so I think that all of us are Americans that we put our country first and that did think about a foreign power influencing our elections. And there is no question that there is something really fundamentally problem. and I don't think it's about Democratic Republic and I think ultimately were Americans. We should vote who are for who are leaders, art, no matter what people choose, no matter what party there without having foreign governments putting their hand on the scale and that to me is fundamental and should be fundamental to all of us. A milgram thanks, so much are being on the show, especially on short notice, gave me or not. Thank you,

now we have to show the way. I always do talking about something from it. Who's there was under covered and it struck me personally week it's about a man named Darrell Davis, Dal Davis's, thing. For a lot of reasons but one of the reasons is that he actually goes around the country collecting the white robes in hoods of clansmen people from the KKK spray. Odd collection, but makes an interesting an part. Is it Darrell is not a clansmen he's, not a white supremacist he's out of NEO Nazi, I'll Davis is a fifty nine year old african american blues musician. Here's little clip of music So, basically, in addition to making great music would Donald has done, for the better part of the last few decades is to go around a country meet folks who are racist, clansmen

and convince them of the air of their ways and convert them basically to humanity. they'll Davis is not a naive man. He understands convert everyone, but is it This rate is not bad and what he has learned is you have to talk to people. He said something that really struck me. He said when two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. He also says ignorance, breach, fear and possibly I Darrell's gun untold numbers of people to leave the clan to become his friend even attend his wedding in the last few months, have been difficult in a lot of ways for a lot of people in the country. always been difficult is if it there seems to be a lot of people who think that the way to success for them is to say: divide, divide, divide, hate, hate, hate

this guy Darrell Davis over the course of time fairly quietly has a different message, and that is united and love, love, love and if overtime more people thought the way down, Davis did if more people had the courage that he has, I think, would be in a better place well, that's it for this episode of statehood, thanks again to my guest amyl grim, and thank you for listening. If you written a review on Apple pie casts. Thank you. If you haven't now is a great time to do so. It really helps out of you we'll find the show, keep sending me your questions about news and politics, tweet them to me at three Ferrara or even better, give me call at six hundred and sixty nine, two hundred and forty seven, seven thousand three hundred and thirty, eight that's six thousand six hundred and ninety two for free

Tuna is presented by CAFE and W and why she studios its produced by the team Pineapple Street Media, Henry Malarkey, generalised, Berman, Joel Level, the MAX Linsky, thanks again to Ricky Nebraska. Our music is by Andrew dashed and special thanks to Julia Doyle, Jefferson and inject Mcafee. We have new episodes coming to you every Thursday on preparing statehood.