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Matthew would be tomorrow's ambassadors, that's Ronan Pharaoh. He served the state Department in the Obama administration, and is the author of a new book on american diplomacy the war on peace. I speak with him about the process of a secretary of State Powell Pale, and why Cutting the diplomatic corps should worry us all and talk about reporting on the meat movement, especially reporting about hearty Weinstein's, which just won him a Pulitzer prize. That's coming up stay too. stay tuned is brought to you by the dad, when you want to break from the never ending flurry of political news and chaos, there's the dad it's a new

the Channel four, yet you guessed it dad. It's not preachy, it's fun stuff made by people who don't take themselves to seriously through building this incredibly vibrant and diverse community of dads who are kind and caring and involved, but above all understand what dad's need the most these days to TAT, break and have a laugh. The dad just started a few months ago and the growing really fast they ve been on good morning, America Buzz ABC News and more, you can find them on Twitter. It's at the dad there also on you to Facebook and Instagram just search the dad, and you should know cafe the folks behind stay tuned and the dad are part of the same media company check them out. I think you'll love it. Ok, let's get your questions concrete decisions from georgia- I just I tweet Francine Stanhope Ass. She said just

after Giuliani, who set his ball on Trump team, is limited. He worked with moderate deal J and as animal feed Mayor mother at FBI hopes knowing Other can help bring investigation to conclusion scene. It needs a little push you tweeted down of ashes tweet and you commented that's not how it works. Gloody Giuliani should know, that's not how it works right. Why do you think he would say this thanks and I'll be sure to state aid Sudan. Thanks to your question, I dont know: why would you Giuliani says all the things he says I don't live in his head, rent, free or otherwise. My comment was about what he seemed to imply by his statement to the scene and reported bash, which is by virtue of the fact that he had some prior relationship, professional relationship or acquaintance with Bob Mahler going back many years. They can sort of sit down, break bread. I have a beer and the.

it will be over and when I set it doesn't work that way. It's because it doesn't work that way. People professionals, we'll deal with each other arms length we usually only may or may not be persuasive, depending on where you sit or what the facts are How can a sort of swill been at the last minute and because he used to be the New York City or the. U S attorney in the southern district of New York causes to be wrapped up in like ten days, doesn't work that way. The system does not work that way. So district of New York doesn't work, May. I point out a couple of things: one is did Giuliani was last the? U S attorney in southern district? twenty nine years ago, and he hasn't been the mayor for over sixteen years the idea that he has any particular sway over how office does business in over its career prosecutors? Does it make, Hence it is true that the interim United Attorney was his former law partner, but I trust and respect the Jeff Berman has refused himself, as the public reporting has indicated

in that Giuliani will be dealing with people who are doing a professional job, and are not going to be swayed or persuaded simply by that really Juliana used to have that office. The ones then I can remember the Giuliani Kay. On a case that I was out with when I was there was attorney. Was he called me out of the blue on Friday afternoon to tell me that he had been suddenly retained by presenting resurrect who is a goal trader from Turkey who we were prosecuting at the time and later he flipped and plead guilty during this period? Would he said he was coming, His behalf- and he informed me that he now represented roses, are up and was flying about very weakened to Turkey to meet with President Bertillon to try to see He can negotiate something and make it go away. And I'm not saying it's. The same thing There is a little bit of similar bravado. really Giuliani, calling the sitting.

It attorney in saying gonna go over there and will see if we can work. This out that didn't work out for his client in the way he expected either. the next question comes via email from Holly. I pray You show so intelligent, balanced and, yes entertaining you're, a wonderful interviewer while Holly, that's really the great question of August. more and the arrival of Giuliani is trumps. Most recent counselor hoop it's him and others asked the taxpayers or him. So I presume, that Julianne come on board. I haven't seen nor the retention agreement thing else, but my understanding is that Giuliani came on. As a personal lawyer in the same with John Daoud was employed, though he's being paid if at all, by Trump directly in a personal capacity. There is a lawyer who you hear about from time to time the entire Cobb who has been hard into what has councils office disorderly the quarterback from the Trump and what has perspective

with respect to various investigations that are going on to carve you may like it or not like it. His salaries paid for by the taxpayers because he's a White House employee, but I believe we Giuliani is paid for by Trump himself. Then s questions remember door on Twitter, I prefer you share that you know many of these folks were getting attention the news either from tromp or someone else in his administration like Andrew Mikhail. How has this changed your friendship with them? What you say about them publicly hashtag asked pre Thanks reason: hashtag, so you that depend on the person. There are people who I can friends- and I consider friends for a long time with whom I have not had a lot of recent contact. One of them is Andy Mccabe and other one is Jim Comey and there are a bunch of other folks both to work for the special counsel and even some lawyers who have worked for President

I try to make it clear if I'm stating an opinion about somebody or about there were a product or about how their pursuing their interests that I state the fact that I know them and I have some relationship with them. I did it with any Mackay, but that it is only fair, and I did that with others as well. As I think you should know what my connections are. Two people before I talk about them, which is something that no ass. You know Sean Hannity did not do when talking about Michael Cohen has changed my principal people not yet in others people who resemble work with the special counsel or working at sensitive cases, and I actually make it a point not to have any conversations with him at all, not even social contact, because I don't want to ever say, given that I speak publicly about things and how much speculation cynicism. There is about people sharing information, they shouldn't. I just don't talk to them. I presume at some point in the future. When all is said and done, many beers will be had or coffees drunk, but until then it has really changed my relationship with votes, but it makes me in a more cautious and who might otherwise be in how interact

My guess this week is journalist, author and former State Department, special adviser, Ronan Pharaoh, We talk about his ground, breaking reporting on sexual assault and me to movement. He just won a Pulitzer prize for those stories when we talk about how we work was inspired by his mother and me a barrel. also run. It has a new book war on peace. And of diplomacy, and the decline of american influence will look at the gutter, the diplomatic corps in what might Pompeo could learn from it. That's coming up stated. Stay tuned with pre is supported by the Showtime documentary Series, the circus, every son political insiders. John Harmon Wagner and Mark Mckinnon. Take you inside the wildest political show on earth more than just

lines or soundbites. The circus gives context to the chaos in Washington, covering american politics from every angle, Don't miss new episodes of the circus. Every Sunday, only on Showtime listeners of stay tuned with pre can go to show time dot com and enter the code preach to receive a free one, on trial of Showtime new subscribers, only an offer expires April, thirtieth, twenty eighteen. Running Pharaoh, thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. It was something I don't mean to embarrass you, but you said once our for his kind of let the Renaissance man die out. Are you a renaissance man. I should have known that would come back to haunt me said the deal with with where they do a lot of things. So that's why that was a commencement speech that I gave when I was the same age as the graduate in class, because I had this Dougie Hauser thing: where went to college? Really you how young eleven deal with eleven

What did you do? Go to law school for deferred for two years after I got, and so I would have liked seventeen eighty This law school at what is Emily twenty you finish, lost below twenty, I think that's right leg is the symbol School that Michael Corn went to date is not the same law school esteemed Michael Cohen, obviously had a very different kind of legal background you went to Lhasa One and you haven't a small last going to happen to us as adults, it decided to mitigate these sort of arrogance of your quick climb by it senior your fellow students at Yale lightness. Not. I think they would have actually leg come at me with pitchforks. If I tried to do that arc, our commencement speakers, Hillary Clinton, fellow alone, would have been her. She's in the woods and chappaqua- don't write letters guys. So, let's start with your new book more on peace, The end of diplomacy and the decline of american influence, which is a look at

policy in United States a miracle underwriters book, I had been a little guy at the bottom of the total pull at the State Department working for a larger than life diplomat named Richard Holbrooke, who had been my mentor of some years at work, on an offer, eight years and saw first hand even doing Obama, administration, the way in which there was a shrinking space for our peacemaker, the negotiators and how especially in the years since nine eleven, more and more of the development and diplomacy work once the domain of professionals just devoted to that. Run out of the Pentagon and the CIA, and I saw for Ten, because I was in Afghanistan when the Obama administration was reviewing our posture there, a pretty acute example of appeal see process overtaken by soldiers and spies. And you know those are great public servants and

This is not to denigrate the men and women and the intelligence and military communities, but when I began to uncover, as I dug into this was a really systemic problem where we sidelined our diplomats and theirs. Room for any voices in the room except the them. Terry and intelligence voice. When do we stood silently our diplomats? So you know right now, and a lot of the book is devoted to this Trump administration is laying waste to the state Department. celebrate, Momsey vastly accelerated, you see all these headlines. Talking about unit purge the state Department, more on the state Department and very often those headlines are accompanied by a word like unprecedented, and I think that's not quite right. It's a new extreme, but actually there is plenty of president that we can learn from. If we care and in a one example I talk about, is after the cold war, the Clinton administration came in on the platform of its the economy, stupid and

refocusing on domestic priorities and we ended up cutting policy and development by thirty percent, the course of the nineties and you can see very clearly the consequences there. We uttered embassies around the world. The embassies that were left standing undermanned and under budgeted. We closed government agencies that in retrospect turned out to be about crucial priorities, information and arms country? and we were left with out the diplomatic caprice, We so desperately needed on nine eleven. pointed everyone go along with that. You listen to warrant Christopher First Clinton term, defending these cuts on the hill, and it sounds almost exactly like Rex tellers and defending them today. You know there is a or I should say up until recently, obviously no longer with us. He gave us one of his last and most candid interviews in the job in this book, in which he put

All the blame on the White House for a lot of stuff and talked very colorful about his fights with this administration. But you know the rationale you hear every time political rhetoric is deployed that denigrate and seeks to downsize diplomacy. It is in our. We can do the same work but leaner dinner. The system is not working and end to be sure, preach. I'm really careful in this book not to say that in the state Department is perfect. I worked there. I know it's not fact is. It is a slow moving, ossified bureaucracy. It's got all sorts of problems, but every secretary of state when, on the record, for this book and pretty much to a one day, agree at the very least that there are serious problems with the way in which this system is being torn down, rather than refer. Isn't there the problem? Mrs, through a lot of government agencies that good work, their good work, invisible and so the which person they can feel it. If you cut the police department, Missy fewer Captain Bill,

the nine when one response time those down, but you have American doesn't feel it if those an embassy in South America, but member that embassy in South America is also the embassy it saves you. If you get held hostage in that country, it's the people, whose screen visa applicants to keep our country safe from terrorists in all that work is still done out of the consular department at the State department. This is glamorous work. You're right that its invisible, but it does have a tangible on the day to day lives of Americans end in over any American who levels anywhere. It is the work of diplomats that most acutely informs the way any non american views us em, right now we're seeing an era beginning to die.

In which China is doubling down on spending on peacemaking and diplomacy and rapidly filling the spaces that we're leaving empty. So we're we're surrendering a lot of profile in the lot of influence. Other particular places going forward briefing queer especially at risk. Because of the thing the ranks yeah, I mean look. I talk about looming challenges in IRAN and North Korea in I profile What are the experts who have been involved in the various attempts at diplomacy, with North Korea over the years in Burke and to a one. I think what they say is you can get played if you barrel, into up a meeting of that type and give them what they want without bedding it in a really careful strategy and You know when we last made around at the North Korea problem under Bush. We had a designated unit of subject matter experts who really knew the pressure points and it's not

right to say that they were a total failure. You know that they really made inroads in our rapport with China about this issue, which is going to be a crucial lever. If we want to get out of this, and on a whole other lot of other fronts, right now we are seeing an abandonment of that kind of commitment, expertise wholesale and that sort of a part and parcel of the Trump philosophy the expertise doesn't matter so much. We can put someone who has no idea what the Energy Department is essential in energy, etc. I'll put it in the words of the whistleblowers I talked to in this book, one after another. They relate in anguished way, talk about D, a and and meant, and integration of people who devote their lives to serving and deeply informing themselves about these issues. So if, Compare who looks to be on the path to becoming an ex sector estate would read your book what's the most important thing, you would want the next head of the State Department, to read and to learn from your book. I would encourage him to read.

The personal stories of the diplomats who were purged from the state Department in the early days of the Trump administration. Why? Because I think You look at, for instance, one guy profile Tom Countryman, who was our time official on arms control, very patriotic name. You know I think I say if it were a work of fixed it would be annoyance, countrymen and you know it to me. Embodies a lot of the misunderstandings that diplomats face. You know they get accused of being these dusty bureaucrats, to get nothing done, and in fact you look at a guy like I'm countrymen and he spent decades in the most dangerous places on earth, giving up opportunities to get paid, a lot more you know could have been in the private sector- is a smart capable guy, you know, pudding is family in danger and giving up a stable life to serve the country and to become you know the best expert and asset to our government that he could be We're Michael Macfarlane show not an easy life being a diplomat

the foregoing critically when were adversaries and when you Look at a guy like that who has been sidelined and fired and whose expertise has been dented. at a time when literally that set of expertise. It is most needed most needed this this. This is what we need as we confront these rising nuclear challenges in. I would hope that like Pontio? As you know, a compassionate person would reflect on the importance of this workforce and the extent to which it now, its defending and restoring right through how we gonna reverse at you, you right in the book in recital certificates, jarring that, You know, in addition to diplomats being decimated the number of recruits- is down twenty six percent, that people who are deciding whether or not to go into the diplomatic corps into the State Department, they're saying and I got other things I can do. Instead. Have you reverse that the talent flow is dry

and there's no way around the fact that that can't be fixed overnight. You know Powell says, were tearing the guts out of the State Department and its mortgaging your future. Is this quote. And the reason for that is, there's a generational impact. If you staunch the flow of the diplomats who would be, tomorrow's ambassadors, in early ambassadors, ten twenty years from now that will take time to fix. But I think that when I take away from that is that we need to start all the more urgently separate apart from the book I want to get too. The writing that you have done that got you that the Pulitzer Prize recently, first, let's begin sort of where you began your background, always like growing up in the house of me, if our own way,

so I count myself as really lucky as tumultuous as my childhood was in a lot of ways here, with a fair amount of pain and trauma. They are my mom. Did this incredibly brave, altruistic thing: maybe foolish, maybe a moon shot but inertia. Really wanted to save lives. In the most, railway she could and adopted the visuals were released, selected for being is unlikely to be adopted as possible. People who were older, who had article, physical disabilities and psychological handicaps and who had endured unthinkable abuse and poverty, and I think that the

When all is said and done. I look back on my childhood and feel gratitude for having had this profound sense of public service incorporated into me, and you know it was impossible to avoid a sense of perspective with the kinds of siblings I had do you feel push towards public service yeah I do I mean I, I consider what I try to do. With the stories I tell to be a form of public service offend, doing it right and, as I come from your mother yeah Does it think it comes from my mother? I think it comes from the bravery of my siblings and in all the old comic book. Troop of flight with power comes responsibility, and I don't know that I had power, but I was fortunate in the hand I was dealt let ask you this question in a Broadway is even answer it. How you like you, learn something from your mother and some pushed a public service from your mother. What, if anything about how you go

about further. Your career and engaging in the world comes from Woody Allen, You know, I saw from a very early age. Just how much power Natural lawn of men in this country commands how, if you are wealthy enough and connected enough, you can profound They distort the media cycle and profoundly and retaliate against a vulnerable people, and particularly women who would speak out against you and even really manipulate the judicial and legal process and in those were all kind of latent pieces of understanding that I think I bring to a lot of my reporting, which has been for years about various, forms of the abuse of power, and we have had this out with with Woody Allen directly

directly enough. You know we were in touch for much my childhood and I had yet supervised visitations were sort of a concession that had to be made to prevent my his sister from seeing amino judges always kept him away from my sister is. There was so much credible evidence that he had molested her there's lots of court findings that are really astonishing and how criminals in there and you believe it to be true dope at absolutely look, I'm sceptical, I'm a journalist to the extent that you can ever heavily corroborate this kind of acclaim its frankly astonishing that there weren't repercussions at the time and that really is down to a powerful guy who distorted the process? You know everything for I multiple eye witnesses who had no interest in making this up in it to the consistency of her story, to the way in which she, literally hiring spooks dare to go after law enforcement official. these are all parts of a playbook that you still

see deployed in sexual assault cases involving high profile, guys and, and I think as much as any fan out. Their desperately wants to not believe these kinds of allegations. When you care about a person's body of work, you can imagine I myself being personally connected to the guy from desperately wanted to not believe this It's pretty hard to escape that, at the very least, there should be a tremendous cloud of suspicion over this guy and he should never have been allowed near other children, less than jump from that to the work you did for the new Yorker that you, frankly from the perspective of a lot of people, have opened the floodgates for people to talk about expose, take action with respect to sexual abuse. My powerful men. When did you think to begin writing about or investigating Harvey Wednesday. I had been sort of corner. Into writing a column about

reporting on sexual assault and abuse issues and what them ethical, responsible. City of outlets was in talking about Woody Allen and that came about interesting label as of changes in the media landscape, so the holly? rapporteur RO days for puff peace cover story about Woody Allen and because the claim had changed so much. They immediately started getting blow back from all these feminist bloggers and in a new forces in the media landscape that just hadn't existed at the time when my sister first made the allegations that would it in the climate. This is important to the unfolding of them historian how social change happens. What was different in the world and in the air There were more women in power for one thing there were more platforms which makes it harder for powerful pub to have an iron grip on you know you get sixty minutes yet the cover of time you get the cover of Newsweek and you're done. That's the narrative! You can't do that anymore.

as much as there are a lot of costs to the new media landscape. In terms of just and accountability. I think. Overall, it's been a really good thing and there are a lot of new voices you didn't see before, and one consequence of that was that they got all this blow back and Janis men again part of a new generation of woman editors was running. The Hollywood rapporteur at the time actually came to me and said: look. I wanna have an incisive look at how journalists should cover this. What what do we do. and I in I very carefully wrote that saying look. This is personal for me, however, this is how we assess the other to be, and I wrapped up in the context of how I was struggling to cover the bill Cosby allegations incisively All of this was in a timeframe where women were coming forward and still very much not being heard. You will recall the reactions. the cause be allegations were split down the middle and one half was our beds talking about the importance of his cultural legacy, and I think that

tenor of the reaction is changed so vastly that we forget sometimes how far we ve come ends. Oh, I had taken this stand on behalf of my sister and on behalf of the issue I had gotten plant. Blow back for it. But I you know, I felt confident I had done the right thing and because of that think sources in stories about sexual abuse, which was striven each area of coverage that have been ignored by the mainstream media to a great extent began coming to me more more because I trusted you yeah, I think, to an extent that was the case through getting these. Locations of harassment, nother misconduct and they're coming to you had you investigate them how did you get people to tell you more than they were initially prepared to tell you and had an ultimately led to the story? what about? How do I won't very rapidly became focused on Harvey Wednesday because one of the first sources to approach me- and I can say this because she's publicly said it was Rose Mc Gowan, an inner,

it wasn't just about her- not that early point very rapidly. It turned into a group of many sources, but you know I I do give her tremendous credit that she agreed to go on camera on the record and suggested that I follow other leads on it. did you suggest leads, or do they come to you? She did The main name that she suggested actually was a personal story. I crawled it really heavily with multiple people. She had told at the time what we would call legally like prompt outcry witnesses in case She decided ultimately that woman that she did not want to be record or background source to this day, I think, has not told her story and the reason for that was fear of retaliation. I hope people buy now understand that every source in this body of reporting faced intimidation retaliation fears about their physical safety costs. to remember in one of the things I exposed in the course of these stories was that have you

steam through a cadre of powerful intermediaries, including David boys. The high profile attorney was hiring in a basically muscle and intelligence agents that were combat ready memory using false identities, to kind of intergovernmental themselves into people's lives and and dig up her yeah intimidate them up you say in your New York article one of the first ones. That's what struck me But you had spoken with, and he said sixteen current informer executives and assistance to Harpy wanting that's a lot of people who are clear to him a lot of people and in that same story, you're dealing with more than a dozen women. It just reached a critical ass of too many good people who were brave enough to speak, sang enough and the landscape changed. You know this loops. Acta earlier conversation that changes in the media, it was still tremendously difficult for both those Sir

very resources. The employees who spoke and also for the women themselves to envision a world in which they would be heard when they spoke on this point and believed believed right. It seemed almost unthinkable I presume that everyone is familiar with the allegations and your reporting. We haven't, talked about what you know basically central allegations against Harvey ones. Teen are, I think the court The allegations are pretty simple too. Understand they're laid out in excruciating detail that it. You know, I don't need to relive on behalf of those women who, I think, are glad that they can leave behind what we're talking about multiple allegations of sexual assault and rape that were broken for the first time in in story in the new Yorker, but I think both for my reporting and for the reporting of the times and other publications. The important thing here wasn't that Harvey mine steam did these gross and criminal things it was.

That we were uncovering vast systems that we're not exclusive to Harvey Winston or to Hollywood. These are the kinds of tactics hiring of goons to intimidate people population of legal processes and in corruption and involved with currying favour with law enforcement officials are tools that you deployed in industry after industry by powerful people. These are all enablers gap and we most the crimes are investigated. Have these attorney's office, there were significant were things well knew about for a long time. So what do you think My response is role in this park, as does this- that we get the Cyrus vans in a moment. Don't cut that part breed I'm not gonna cut them so itself. the enablers? Unless talk about the systems the negative in the assistance around Harvey Wednesday. When you be them? They finally agreed to talk to you.

Were, they embarrassed that they had been quiet, were they embarrassed that they had been? enabling with eight were they seeking enough to mitigate their silence from before, I think some of the blame met it out too employees of the mining company and Mirror MAX is over inflated and their demonized unfairly. I also think some of the blame is poor. play very fair, and I hope that, as future people, income He's where there are seeing behaviour be being covered up, derive a clear lesson from that that, in a speaking, is really a lifeline for people affected by that kind of bad behaviour. The sort of lawyers people active was to what did we do think they are to blame, and what did they do that offend you in all this. You know I want to be careful about what I say beyond what we ve reported. I think we ve been very clear about David boys role in this, and

It was through a variety of law firms, but one of them was David boys firm that essentially spies. Private intelligence agents were hired to dig up dirt on and intimidate women with allegations and reporters following the Harvey Wednesday and story, and you think that That was done, as it is blanket matter is immoral, fickle wrong. I say that there's absolutely no place in our society for the profession of private investigation. I do think that there is absolutely no place for the legal profession. S really at the elite level occupied by some of these lawyers. Eighty And abetting the intimidation and harassment of people are grown. I think there is a lot of criminal implications

that are correctly being looked at now and multiple jurisdictions, and I think, ethically its unacceptable and in the bar should look closely at why we tolerate that kind of aviation. Your fancy enough lawyer. So there's a particular woman whose story you tell and that intersect with both we once dean. Some of the lawyers and the Manhattan t. We mentioned Amber but a lot Gutierrez what happened with and what do you think should have happened to hurry Weinstein's in connection with his conduct towards her so Harvey Wine Steen met a young italian model at an event that he was producing. Mrs omber Hombre and the long and short of it is. You know he invited her to a meeting at his office, which she assumed would be a business meeting and by her account he then groped her. I should point out also by his account he then groped her, as one of the pieces of evidence that I uncovered and released for the first time, was a recording maiden

course of an Nypd sting operation that had been suppressed for several years in which Harvey Wednesday very clearly admitted multiple times to this. She then, something alot of people did not do. She goes to the police. Omber Gutierrez is at tremendously brave and savvy person. and she did, as you say, immediately go to the authorities there would have when she went to authorities initially so she ended up with these special victims, division of the Nypd and they began, plan a sting operation fairly rapidly, where she would go back to collect evidence goes back he's wearing a wire schumann, wearing a wire. She was terrified to do it. I really take her at her word when she says she was motivated to help other people. She in one another person in that same situation, and she didn't have to do that, but she did

recording has been made. That recordings been made public, I've heard they adapt recording public and with I can't divulge the ways in which I got that recording, but I will say that there were a lot of people were angry about the fact that that recording was covered up. Cyrus Van had that recording among a lot of other pieces of evidence right. So there was a discussion we learned from Europe wedding and other sources that there was a thought that prosecuting Harvey sitting on the strength of her testimony numbers testimony and the recording that process. never happened. So this is really the crux of all the systems that I'm talking about so glad you raised this before in this deeper on this issue. This is a case that people should understand they had this incredibly damning. Peace hence, and actually I'm way, p d, partly as they were,

angry at the waiters played out did a survey of other similar groping cases where they found that no on far far less evidence, most of them resulted in arrests and yet for some reason in the Harvey ones, in case they had the recording of him admitting to it multiple prompt outcry witnesses. They had her testimony which never changed for assent, and they had officers on the force who found her extremely credible. and for some reason, after deliberating the DA's office decided they would do nothing about this, but why You think that is. Do you think it's because they were worried about losing I'm not gonna speculate about the state of mind of Cyrus Vance when he made this decision, but what did lay out in excruciating. Detail in my stories is what happened behind the scenes, which is that here he wants hired a powerful intelligence firm, K too, which is run by jewels crawl, whose alone dairy magnet in that space of private investigations? Everyone knows

two if you are in the business and he actually hired for the purposes of the battle Anna CASE, both k to which was charged with digging up dirt on her and crawl, which was jewels, curls previous firm, which was charged with destroying any evidence. She had so what they did. Is they hired italian sub contractors who obtained information about her past that they thought would be unflattering and damaging to our credibility and through a number of back channel communications. They basically barrage DA's office with this, and one thing that's really important to point out. Pre is these? Aren't random people from the private sector calling there is a review solving door of people leaving that DA's office and going into high paid jobs at private investigation for so literally you have the guy who was Colleagues, you know a hot few minutes, essentially they're supposed to be a cool down period. not very long. You and saying, hey and out this. This woman is a hooker, and you know

David boys on the record, said she's a hooker she's, a hooker, which we believe is not happy that we quoted but you know we were very fair to him and we were very observant of ground rules. and you know it's disgusting how that played out. I think it reveals a whole lot about the way a powerful people communicate the justice process, using it odd that d who have to stand for election, take money from colonel defence lawyers. I'm glad you raise that because that's another thing we reported on obviously Cyrus Vance was getting a whole lot of money from of the lawyers have taught you know in most counties where, These have to be elected by the people. They know our lawyers any of them our defence lawyers. It's kind of Ikey? Isn't it it's extremely He and you know I think he Vance in particular, its Damon saying he'll. Be no regret. Is that all the money? I think you said he, but at the time of this case you had Elkanah Bromwich, who is one powerful, celeb, Lawyer and David boys was another on the wine Steen Team, giving

a lot of money to his campaigns and everyone involved, says: oh that's incidental, it doesn't matter. It was business. As usual, a lotta people gave him money. Its business as usual. I would put the question to anyone listening. Should it be look I don't think so. I headed for position I was appointed, so I don't have to worry about running for office it's an endemic corruption that you have in all sectors. Office. We haven't with congressmen. We have we say legislators who have to get money from people whose Is there going to be deciding? It seems, particulars upsetting in the narrow category of law enforcement, so I think quickly, odious their case law enforcement, focus, posted dependent, but we do have a system which their elected. So the question is, then you know you get elected. How do you get the money to run? Campaigns are have an answer. but I think it a minimum DA's Consider should decide not to take money from people who will have, of clients before those days offices. I think that and I just want to draw a distinction as people judges

however, they may look. I dont level accusations of corruption. I just relate the facts about what played out behind the scenes. There is a big difference when we talk about law enforcement between what the deal office did hear him what the Nypd did here and you can take the grain because and wiping resources may be bent out of shape and therefore there is often warring between short of your vision of the prosecutors. In the end, the agents were very striking in this case that, in a veteran cop, after veteran cop looks at this fact, pattern says: that's corrupt and you know I won't use that word, but they do I've said so before I say again couple things that are important to make clear what is, answers. If a colleague of mine, together when he was he still hastily the day, and I was the journey we sometimes battle against each other for cases, we often also had our folks worked together. I known to be a person, that has integrity. I've never seen him. Do anything. Personally aware of that showed a lack of integrity. There is a difference in pay I am also not present

to know what went on here then something report on a very troubling, but there is a difference between corruption and having cold feet. And I made a policy a long time ago born. from the time that I was yours attorney when other people based on incomplete information took my head off and took the often people my office for not bring a case that they thought based on press clippings, was worthy of being brought and I'll tell you then case- we made a decision not to charge it was based The evidence we were more aggressive and some in brought some cases losing because without their worth bringing but that, but there this distinction between worrying that you're gonna take on a signal Defended whether it's a politician or or a powerful, in industry and lose. Wait it's humiliating to your office verses. Quid pro quo, I'm not saying that one of those things is terrific they're both not go. I also wouldn't draw so hard a distinction between those two things you

absolutely right and how you render what many sources around the DA's office told me was the logic and I'm not saying that these decisions are simple or The way in which those decisions were made was without merit, but I think the appearance of corruption was. sufficiently embedded in this, that it does merit further screw. Yet look, it was totally exacerbated by the relationships between among people. contributions made, but just I wanted to say for the record. I don't know what happened in that case. I don't judge other meal I had a similar job. It could be was terrible decision. It could be that the close call that some if one when other people not the other way. I know there are cases that my off didn't bring that if you asked some agents, they would say you know they went out now brought them? It is true my love law enforcement? I loved. You know the cost

what with any of the aid as we work with the police mission on the show not too long ago, but the decision about what will in court and what is sufficient evidence to charge a crime is in the province of the prosecutor. Why would you tell Cyrus Vance as he weathers criticism about this? I think you should talk about why he made a decision heeded, which is easier said than done theirs. such cases where a prosecutor decides in the case, and you can judge it. It's in open court, and you can look at the evidence and you can criticise it for me, overly harsh or overly weak, and you can see the quality of the witnesses and you can take them to task and there's a pie airing because the process has begun a bit more complicated when you chosen to bring the case so, for example, is very hard for FBI, with adjusted but to show the purity of the decision not to charge euroclydon. It's going to be very difficult.

for by Mahler and others, to show the purity of a decision not to charge hypothetically jarred Kirshner or to make referral alone Donald Trump, it's much harder to assess The quality of a decision not to do something than to do because of its nature of the game. Now progress can get in trouble to right if they too much about a decision not to prosecute that's precisely. What Jim Commune trouble when you make it, into decline. We declined and significant people including the mayor of the city of New York and the governor of New York, but it becomes difficult to explain fully transparent way to the public, why you didn't make a particular decision when you went to the system and the guidelines of the department and also the presumed innocent of the party. You chose not to charge to keep your mouth shut, so it's kind of a quandary. Do you think outside inquiries? In do what played out in that office are justified. I think when you have a situation, where a decision is sufficiently a cloud

have to worry about credible have to worry about. whether there were some your bad. Nefarious reason for doing so, not doing something that there should be for scrutiny it and if you ve put yourself in that position because of relationships, or because of donations or anything else, then we need a little bit made that bad and I think people smarter about. Then I think there's been an awakening in the protease, but all that please legitimate questions to be asked and there perhaps ways of handling it better, so that people have faith and- since in the decisions that are being made on that, proclaiming that I know what happened in that case MR, and give a little bit I see by leave turn the tables completely pack. Misconduct that Einstein engaged in it. Sensors sniffed out that misconduct. Ten years ago you think you could have been uncovered. Then. If

journalists took out, let's had showed more courage earlier. The story could have broken a lot sooner. That's that's a pretty damning indictment, yeah and if it is pretty and it's one reason why I am so grateful as I can live in a state of days, shock survey, the impact of the story, I just feel relieved, because there were so many obstacles set against it ever breaking a whole eighty of systems that came crashing down to stop me to stop them with What's happened. It tried to stop. You there's a lot a grating apples of that that I think I'll be able to talk about in the future. Pre. Let I mean you haven't works pieces talking about the efforts to obstruct or cover up what you are discovering. I think it is very clear that there is more to be said about the way these stories get cover

for as long as they do and I hope its clear to anyone who is familiar with my work that way. I see some sort of corruption or injustice. I don't stop so yeah. You know I think in a lot of ways I'll be continuing to to chase the concept you just alluded to before. Let you go I must say you know, two things about what's important: Assistant seeking truth: when are you gonna one for office I have never considered running for office and that's not a faint Ambitious in that particular way, I've never lived my life without intention. I think our campaign finance is so broken right now that I dont know that I have the stones to confront that broken sister that requires so much fund raising and so much entanglement with special interests. I know that we need good people who are willing to do that and IMF.

than any one would ask me, but I don't think that's me, Baroness Ronan Farrow. Thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you for everything you do pretext an offence to get to the point the shower. I talk about something that struck me in the news, and there has been a discussions in the new and in law, schools and in law offices, and also to places about the legal I over some of the things that the president has done, and one of them legal battles has been about the travel ban in its various iterations and This principle will have to say about it in due course but there's another decision. In another area. It's gotten some attention, I quite as much, and that has to do with what people call so called sanctuary cities and the president's efforts. to do by executive order with Congress, not unwilling to do, and that is to take money away from cities and municipalities around the country who are not playing ball with president, wants to do on immigration.

taking away money. That is very good for local. Remsen for law enforcement for public safety. In all sorts of other things in the community Congress won't do it: the press, This ought to do it by executive order and just Last week there was a is decided by the Seventh Circuit Court of appeals. The caption reads: city of cargo versus Jefferson be sessions. The third attorneys the United States, where the captain- and in that case the appeals, three judges decide to side with the city of Chicago and what's activity, that the case to me and for you and the reason that recent mentioning it is that these it is decided to stand up. rule of law and the separation of powers I think it's actually worth hearing what the judge wrote for the panel wrote in city of Chicago versus sessions, because she focus not on what immigration policy should be. But what the constitution stands for. The judge, Ilona Grosvenor wrote. This

quote. Our role in this case is not to us. as the optimal immigration policies for a country rather She before us strikes at one bedrock principles of our nation. The protection which transcends political power if filiation and rest at the heart of our system of government. She goes on to write the founders. A country well understood The concentration of power threatens visual liberty and established a bulwark against such tyranny by creator separation of powers among the branches of government, If the executive branch can determine policy and the new the power of the purse, to Mandy compliance with that policy by the state and local governments, all out the authorization or even acquiescence of elected This leaders that check against Tyranny that word again that check against tyranny is forsaken. The judge went on to say repeatedly refused to approve of measures that would

funding to state and local immigration policies the Congress. Authorize the attorney general to impose conditions. It falls to us the judicial we as the remaining branch of government to act as a czech and such your patient of power closed club. I should point out the judge. Grosvenor was appointed by Republican. Her colleague, Dodge Bower was also appointed by Republican. The third member the panel Judge Mannion, was also appointed by Republican and regional Judge, who ordered The injunction last September, judge, Leyden Weber, was also appointed by Republican the point of order is to suggest that this opinion gives you some evidence and proof and hope that independence of the judiciary is alive and well that separation of powers is alive and well in that region. Some cases are not preordained by party.

and that should be encouraging to all of us, especially at this time Well, that's it for this episode of stay too thanks. My guest Ronan Pharaoh via New Book war on peace. If you like the show and reviewed and apple podcast. Every pulse the review help new listeners find a show semi your questions. News and politics. They just want to say I can answer between phone call, an email, but we do read them They inform our show the questions I asked and the guests we have. So thanks for sending Tweet them to me at three for our with the hashtag ask Preet or give me a call at six hundred and sixty nine, two hundred and forty seven, seven thousand three hundred and thirty, eight, that six thousand six hundred and ninety two for pretreat or you can send an email to stay tuned at. dot com stay tuned is presented by CAFE is produced by the team. Apple Street, media cat Erin, crisper they Henry MILAN

a generalised, vermin, Joel Level and Maxillaries music is by Andrew Dust and special thanks to Julia Doyle Jeff. I and Jake MAX I'm prepared, data.