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or wherever you get your podcast from you at those two psychic powers and government conspiracies history is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn this stuff. They don't want you to know welcome back to the show my name is met, they call me, then. We are joined, of course, with our super producer, Paul Deck and on the ones in tombs. Most importantly, you are here, you are you and dad makes this stuff. They don't want. You to know that's what is brand new logo rocking island. Good, that's true! We have the six finger logo designed by the way by our super producer, Paul Paul nice work, Sir, with the council

nation, from our graphic artist, team, yeah, PAM yeah, we could say a name city PAM is awesome, PAM Peacock yet, and we have a situation here. You're in it, maybe deceptively easy to think There are only three or four people involved in stuff. They don't want you to know that could not be further from the truth because this podcast, like many many other things in the world, has entire team behind the curtain actively work in to make stuff like this sound easy. I think we have the easiest jobs on the team. To be honest, sure I'll. Absolutely we given here ramble man. That's what I do you you do. The hard stuff just go well and guess what, what

therefore, I see no, no, no! No, but we the reason we're bringing up this, idea of a team that often is not acknowledged is because as today's episode dives to something that could easily be seen as the the actions of just a few isolated people absolutely- maybe just fifty two of them, perhaps as few as fifty two, but as we're going to find just like this podcast, today's topic has many many many many more people in play, some of whom remain the serious an unidentified today. If you listen, to the show. Then probably won't be surprised, Matt and I are going to go out on a limb and assume. You will not be surprised to learn that most governments at one

We were another lover: Marheyo have perpetrated secret illegal programmes, against either their citizens or citizens of another country, and since our show based in the: U S. We naturally tend to explore stories based in this country. This one is Section, but it's one you may not have heard of before today we're exploring a classified programme known as operation chaos. Yes, and to discuss this programme. We need, do take ourselves back to nineteen fifty four onwards for just a little bit there to these and Indo China WAR. You probably don't know it is that you really know it as the Vietnam WAR. I know that's how I was a little while ago. It was a conflict between north and south, the non which were to separate countries at the time it lasted from nineteen, fifty four until nineteen. Seventy five now. This is distilling it like crazy, but this is just

to see what it is, and you probably already know this North Vietnam was a calm. Communist government is run by a communist government and they worked with these rebels in Self Vietnam, who were called them. Khan and together they attempted to overthrow the government of South Vietnam, and this was a terrible, terrible conflict that ass, the lives of so many and will discuss it here shortly. But ultimately, the physical combat took place in both South Norman North Vietnam, louse in Cambodia, which are immediately to the west of the Vietnam of Vietnam, the threat there and am, I guess, spoiler alert. Ultimately, the north vietnamese enemies were successful in their attempts to overthrow the south vietnamese government, yeah yeah, and along the way the Eu S got involved. You may have heard us right

since earlier instances surrounding the the catalyst that, yes at the- U S, on a path to war in this part of the world At most controversial one being the Gulf of Tonkin Incident, which do we the whole episode on that. Yet do we just do false flags? We did false words or we discussed at length, but you know maybe we could go deeper. Who knows. Who knows, I check out the false flags episode if you have yet to do so. There's some pretty interesting stuff there for now we're going to explore the not the entire Vietnam WAR, because this is the set up press to operation chaos, we're going to look at the people, the: U S sent to wage this war, the Vietnam WAR, as it's called in the? U S used ache,

Description system, a draft- and that is something that has it occurred- sets roughly two points: seven million! U S! Soldiers served in Vietnam and of those two point: seven million around twenty five percent were draft ease meaning that they were forced to go and in most cases it would be a crime for them to refuse to serve in the war, regardless of their ideological or political affiliations. There are cases where you could be a conscientious objector, for instance, a pacifist or a so called pacifist. Like the Quakers Linden Larouche was raised. A Quaker It will be important a little bit later yesterday, show or Mohammed Ali who is a country, objector death and so conscientious,

action is a genuine thing, but there were a lot of people who I told it to Canada, for instance, yet as they felt like they wouldn't be able to make a case for conscientious objection that there would have been popped into the shaken bake system and then sent off to die in the jungle. That's how a lot of people looked at it. Yes, sleep towards the end of the Vietnam conflict as as the propaganda and the truth of the situation was coming forward. Many many many other people, as you can tell from the statistics about seventy five percent of the forces there volunteered or were already career military. Yes, and not all of these people came back. We discuss this briefly at our episode on the allegation.

Of pure w left behind in Vietnam, which is still a contentious topic of conversation, because there is simply not enough proof yet one way or the other. Unfortunately, and we know that the people went of the roughly two point: seven million, not everybody, made at home. That's real. But we have the actual numbers to write your one. Every ten Americans who served in Vietnam was in some way a cash multi. There was somewhere between fifty eight thousand one hundred forty eight and fifty eight thousand two hundred and twenty that were killed just killed while they were there and then another three hundred and four thousand that were wounded and that's it estimate there right yet the oldest.

Are in this is again just on the: U S: side, the oldest person you aside killed was sixty two years old of the people who were killed, sixty one percent, more than half were younger than twenty one. More and more eleven thousand of those killed were younger than twenty cheese and five people were killed in Vietnam were only sixteen years old. That's again on the american side, This is very important, because there are a lot of people under sixteen years old. They died that were not on the american side right. There were civilians, yeah that were simply trying to live their lives, so Let's look at the vietnamese side, the? U S! Military estimates that between two hundred thousand and two hundred and fifty thousand south vietnamese soldiers died in the war and in nineteen. Ninety five vietnam released its official estimates of war casualties.

And its cited as many as two million civilians on both sides, the north. It amazing Sofie at me side and they said. In addition, there were one point: one million north sea. It means and be a con soldier casualties. That is Unthinkable to bloodbath yeah. Well, you know the overall tonnage of bonds that were dropped during the Vietnam WAR exceeds. That of, if you add up most of world war, two of just the, if you think about the amount of munition there was use their. It exceeds almost all of her authority, which is insane and in many cases, so Ordinance remains Yan, louse right down, exploded right in the: U S conducted secret, illegal operation. In Cambodia louse in particular a lot of

here in the? U S agreed with the war and a lot of people did not- and this is where we hit upon the concept of disease There's deserters would be a little bit different from draft dodgers. Yes, Julia Severe Draft Dodger. Your number gets hold up. They pull your card and you say one reason or another forget this: I'm out of here I'm going to Canada. I am going to Europe, I'm gonna. Had out for the southern continent Tina. In their organisation, set up to assist people that wanted to dodge the draft it. That's it that's a pejorative kind of a draft dodger by like they wanted to would it what is a better way to David did not want to participate in a war with which they did not agree. A very good debate, the head, they just they disagreed, but it

we're going to talk about what a deserter is an actual deserve. This is the military, has a classification for this, and it is that its any person that's been absent without leave a service member mind you for more than thirty days, thirty days or lesser AWOL right, yes, exactly and you have to be an active member of the military to be considered a deserter in desertion is something that occurs in almost every war. Oh yes, it's it's often looked down upon. Looked down upon the scene as an unpatriotic move, to say the least. Tremendously unethical when the idea being Someone has already, to some extent, agreed to

serve in a military, and then they have gone back on their word or the vow they took the oath they took, and Vietnam is no different. In fact, quite a few people deserted. In Vietnam, yeah, according to reports from nineteen, seventy two from Biloxi July, one thousand nine hundred and sixty six until November, one thousand nine hundred and seventy two around four hundred and twenty three thousand United States military personnel were classified as deserters now they've been classified deserters doesn't mean that that's necessarily the or whatever the situation there going through. Those are, very their varying to a large extent, but their classified that way by the military. Now let's see by July, of nineteen seventy two. According to this report, a large number of these people were quote returned to military control. That's

three hundred and ninety one thousand of the four hundred and twenty three thousand, so they were returned to military control. It's interesting because this around this timeframe, nineteen sixty six to nineteen. Seventy two: this is when the? U S military, begin and even tracking these numbers, because had been relatively low in the past in view. Look at world war. Two there were six in point three million Americans who served in some capacity in the military during World war. Two, and there were only an estimated forty thousand deserters at that time. But again when do those numbers winner, those numbers put forth as it after you return a lot of the other ones to military control. Are they still considered murders in that number. It gets a little she, because they weren't tracking, very well right yet ends then these are official numbers which will almost always differ from actual

Number easy, especially when you get into the big government stuff YAP when it, whenever government reports bad news about itself, yeah, there's going to be a difference between What what is officially said and what actually happens, but let's not get lost in the numbers right. Let's, let's explore these deserters as people. Yes, they didn't one day, well, not to speculate too much, but most of them did one day say here: I gave it a shot. You're just gonna, just gonna hide out these people being rational, intelligent beans had a series of desires and motives,

goodness and fears ambitions, the drove them to commit this act of desertion. But what are those reasons? What are those motivations we'll get to that after? word from our sponsor visible suitor, If they want you to know, is brought to buy lifelike tax season? Is here paying its an emotional roller coaster. Sometimes it's off It is worth it when you open up the mailbox new, see that one on the low pupil waiting for unless it turns out somebody else already filed your return, which is a real thing. Look into it. It's kind of scary, during taxis in your personal info, like your name or social security number. All that stuff can be made in shared. More than usual, is true. Criminals can steal information from your very devices and sell it on the dark web or use it to commit identity theft. You need lifelike we're one most recognise brand and identity theft. Protection is what lifelike that's the model

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subscribed math magic on Apple pie, Gaspe, I her radio up or wherever you get your fight guest. Here I heart. We know that if you dont know your numbers, you don't know your business. In fact, that's the problem that sweet by Oracle has set out to solve its time to quit. Flying blind and unlike growth for your business with nets, wheat schedule free demo right now and receive your free guide, seven key strategies to grow your profits, go to net sweet dot, com, slash math That's not sweet dot, com, slash, math, we're back, and the first reason for desertion is incredibly, dare I say painfully apparent: it is the fear of physical harm or death. Now, that's one extends right out.

Lay cave, for instance. I I'm bored in Nebraska right and I was easily going to live most of my life. It must all town, I was gonna. Go watch local high school or college games, and now, Because someone, I never met in wash the sea has a problem Vietnam. Now here I am, I dont know these people. I don't believe me that guy next to me get shot in the head. This is terrible. That's understandable, and people have people deserted for fear of being the next headshot at times. And then the calculation. Again, this to the right people. We are attempting to illustrate the psychological process. They reached the point where the instinct for self preservation out wade these social obligation to do once duty or the

the ideological belief that what they're doing is more important than their safety right, yet I'm so glad you mentioned, accept another reason for desertion, ripe, ideological differences yeah. Maybe I don't agree that the way of life we are, fighting for a review of the stated goals of removing It is a more saving this country from communist invaders. Maybe I don't agree with it- right, yeah- maybe maybe you agreed with, originally right when you signed up in worth in California or war again or something here and then you went to the war and you saw what was happening on the ground, and you said this is not what I believe to be just now. I'm not afraid of dying, but I will not be a part of this thing with which I disagree. Yeah man, that's a whole other situation there, when you're. Looking at the actual operations that occurred in some of the tragedies and massive

first, there were its true that were perpetrated by the: U S, military and its unfortunate fact, and sometimes perpetrated by factions of the? U S military and without the approval so absolutely larger entities absolutely but yes, those atrocities did occur. A third reason for an individual to deserve. Would be a little bit more mercenary, an opportunity for a new life for celebrity for material goods, material gain or for profit. So, for example, you can think of these stories of people in the cream more. There have been a couple of guys who deserted to the dp archaic to the democratic People's Republic of Korea and

when they deserted. They were occasionally treated like celebrities. They were the bad Americans in the propaganda films they were literally movie stars they did not end well for them to be clear about that, and I think what guy recently was believe he was allowed to see his mother before she passed, but she's lived his. He lived most of his life in North Korea, but those are the reasons. Fear physical harm, don't kill me ideological differences. I disagree with the concept or the motivations for this war or the opportunity the self serving opportunity to

he'll be famous now to get paid Nokia yeah? Those are any. There are new answers to all assure absolutely sure, but let's, let's look at the other side of this war as well. There was not just a physical side of this large proxy war between capitalism. In communism, there was an ideological site and war was functioning as a business. Yes, war is always been about resource extraction, control, suppression, management, exaggerate and deserters were a a resource to be exploited- oh yes, by other countries by by enemies of the state yet afford these.

USSR and communism at large deserters are fantastic, especially if they come over to your side. The best anti war advert, I spent, are always gonna, be images of a wonderful life, some how better, on the other side of the trenches, the other side of the conflict, in the? U S, for instance, you'll, see propaganda. The touts amenities, like we have refrigerators. We have new obvious. Why are you fighting you can buy for kinds of ham and our grocery stores think about how much food you can cook with this microwave exactly this idea of selling again the american dream. The retro futuristic Jetson life there. Another thing that is in sleep beneficial from a propaganda perspective, is testimony from deserters,

Actual word of mouth. Don't believe this advertisement about the microwave. Oh, I dont believe I don't know. I do believe that in the wake of seen it before in and that all microwave does is burn your food and it just makes things He don't listen to them, join the revolution, whatever their revolution, mainly at the time yet spot on. You will tend to believe a person more so than an idea, especially depending on how that person is presented to you. There you go so this crucial, I d logical tool for the forces opposing the: U S in the China or Vietnam conflict often these two propaganda opportunities where bind in Anti. U S, operations!

A deserter laments the injustices of the war and imperialistic. U S culture overall and then pivots to tout the freedom they encountered after crossing over that freedom might not be what the western world would think of his freedom. It might not be necessarily freedom of speech. It may The protracted is freedom to join the great collective wishes or a better world, or something like that. But what about European nations a lot of times european nations? Are they want to be seen as neutral parties when there's something like this going? some kind of conflict of this nature or re. Maybe they want to be a safe haven where either a deserter or otherwise could come and live in their land. Just show that they are not on either I'd really of the conflict? Like you can come here, Give you safe passage you you know, you can stay here for x, number of days.

Weeks or years engine to show that they can act on their own accord and not be influenced by, and usually the U S or whichever, whichever countries in power Right legal Disney, PETE Pinocchio have no strings yeah. I can act unilaterally, yes, and we will help you out, but we also want you know we want. We want really help or hurt you, but will give you safe haven right, yeah refugee status, yes, wraps worry a visa in Sweden in particular many deserted, join something called the American Deserters Committee named in. What can I can only imagine is a burst of creativity. The S say: that's Ebby its. They had other stuff going on, I'm sure they didn't say You know a week workshop in the name yeah and there were american deserters committees throughout several countries that cannot popped up rooted. Do civil

thing. So what were they doing? What they really just We do have some kind of united front for deserves a voice for everyone to speak in unison, frame, all deserters together. This is this: is us where we have a powerful voice, Ah, yes, we are now a voting en bloc of some sort, or we can you knights, and now it's not just or two of us occasionally on Anti. War, television spots. It's a huge group of us all at once. Yeah stage protest in and we can issue a statement from us. Not just from me were met the deserted call him and think about that is half so much more official Uncle SAM was predictably concerned Mary very much so because their hazards for the? U S when it comes to

deserters from the war and one of the will of its it's tough to say, which is more important, but we can walk through a couple of them in no particular order that public opinion. Support for the war is incredibly fragile on the domestic front, other role, of the media in the Vietnam WAR good, collating and think about that is half so much himself, so this was not to where information was often carefully managed for the domestic front, journalists throughout their sixty. Something of them got killed in the process, but they were showing things that the american public would not expect to see and in many cases was not supposed to see their would not normally see in any kind of conflict like this, and because of this,

The: U S was unable to entirely suppress the flow of domestic information from domestic sources, much less suppressed, flow of anti war messages from abroad, kids stuff to scramble a short wave radio, nor I mean oh yeah and there was a tremendous and plausible very well found. It concerns the anti war movements in the? U S could trigger massive domestic unrest were talking about the fall of states, follow the rule of law and that if the american public sympathized with deserters, who could not return, home and who also implicitly avoided the legal consequences of desertion, then the powder keg would explode. People watch this and say these people deserve to come back to a homeland.

And I guess our homeland is not as powerful as it wants us to believe her man. If the ideological foundations begin to crumble, then everything does sense. Gonna abstract, but I think you're right near. People are so weird Yedo, like so many things that if we, if we attempted to explain to an extra terrestrial civilization, we would sound insane Oh, hey! Welcome! Let me take you to our leaders hop in this. We call a car and they need why are we stopping all? We have to wait for this thing to change colors. Why? There's? No one here it's either just the thing we do man. He ran away to see the President Way holiday. Saying. Are you. Saying that I shouldn't follow traffic signals. If there's no one around, I cannot legally.

I agree with that. No, I am using it. For example, no knows that worry level. It's weird, because wool we'll sit totally, will I think, most has a great line about that on black star knife wearing their quoting a poem in one of the signs where a guy as we were sitting in three deep into traffic, stop talking about how brainwashed some our brothers and sisters are. While we waited for a green light to tell us when they go, oh dude, it sounds, better when, when you hear the there's a nice, beat behind it, get what this anywheres were pointing out, hopefully that the Ideological things the programmed behaviors people are,

easily normalized and accepted, and it doesn't take as much as you might think to disrupt those things. Absolutely right were gullible now how many people did you see where in a tidy? Why do they do that? What is a tie? Do what's the point? What's the point hi it's a very good use my mind for while I get it man, I feel the same way, I'm just not as vote About I need to start, you know saying the things I think I like it, I feel like I've seen that ties are silly, is maybe not the best way to start a rebel Sean but anyway ideology aside, sorry, I went off the rails and that when that way, there are other things that are perhaps more material, oh yeah, there, the next one has to do with triangulation really so Imagine that you are another country right. Your intention,

officer for another country and there's a group of american deserters. You you meet one of them and you start talking maybe you even let's say, capture them, or maybe maybe do you have to capture? Maybe you just have some drinks with them the bar and you get intelligence from this person you're, essentially interrogating them bright. One individual, one, small group of individuals and you get in in all relevant information that you can't from these operation aims programmes, of ongoing ones that are occurring right now ones from the past. You can get all kinds of data it about your enemy, with somebody like this and then here the deal I said, triangulation you take that information you ve gathered. Then you compare and contrast it to another individual. Perhaps that you met another bar, or that was also captured, a key question them separately. Yet

oh you ve, got leads, you ve got really, and you can do some. You can decide what is probably bunk. What is probably real, I don't know it's it's a gold mine for and intelligence might. Yeah yeah, because then you would be able to falsify misinformation. Oh yeah right unless the people the questioning already had an established story or narrative would ultimately be able to find out what they were thinking where they were going, and this can lead to all these massive insights and there's a sticky think here. It, sir.

Its logical, then in a world of rational actors, which all nations and states are its logical, then that you could be in a situation as a leader of a country where you can rationalize the death of a single prisoner were deserted her because it can be framed as a. Effective way I'll be a brutal and effective way of saving the lives of multiple other people. The air and we see rationalize the death of a deserted prisoner that doesn't just mean abandoning them, leaving them in the cold or throwing them to the wolves. That also could mean sending money your own people to get rid of them, possibility near it. It's an unfortunate comparison, but I think it works of the mafia. If you join the Mafia in some capacity or another or say in organised crime association, leaving that group

is probably not a good idea just because for that same for the information that you for the loose ends that you become, he no net economic, a confession to you that I have never seen the sopranos. What is a good? I love you really. I really did you have seen it. I have seen it twice over. Should I watch it, I mean I would recommend it. What do you think the anyone did Sopranos yeah Tony? I read the Wiki Zack. I sure that's all you Paul Paul Paul are that. Did you watch the spreads counted watching either classic aid the oil like hour. I will watch it you're the one who told me to watch the wire yeah. Well, I was one of those guys are

though the wires so good Paul you gotta watch the wire man is so good really was a failure. I like a lot of it. I saw that I think your comparison holds up this idea of America. This idea of silence, above all the idea that this is a one way. Entry organization that does apply maybe not to all militaries, maybe not even to the. U S. Military applies to a lot of things when we start talking about the murky world of governments, secrecy. Then disorders are also very, very useful as another form of propaganda propaganda advertised to soldiers in the field yeah actively occurring awhile sort trying to fight like in a battle, gettin, radio stations that word bombard people with broadcasting, several of,

Will you listening to today's episode, may be Vietnam veterans, and we would be intensely interested to hear whether you personally encountered this sort of propagate some some kind of way Hannah which would release these broadcast in English, telling soldiers how useless the? U S side of the war was, and how done there was to be there so imagine you're up to your wasting mud and filth and your marching you Peter rotting in your socks, the reigning hasn't stopped for three days, and at this point everybody knows is it's just not going to some of your friends and acquaintances have just died and then you hear a radio broadcasts featuring a soldier who sounds like he could be from your home town in Nebraska Brass, just an organ in California, advertising

the injustices of war, the freedom of life, neutral sweetener. Europe, either the idea juggle struggle and progress occurring in communist Russia how much more marching do. You have a new with all these things bombarding you. What is the limit? That's where first, one, the public opinion in the ideological foundations, are so important because if you dont have, if you don't have that stuff as just steel first of his not steal in your mind, then maybe you chips away enough to get you do yeah and in many cases we must be said that that kind of attack the brainwashing might just make somebody more resolute in their existing conviction absolutely possible, and I am sure that has happened. But due to these can

earns, which again, are not specific to the Vietnam WAR, the echo throughout history and are not specific to the? U S either they echo throughout cultures. Due to these concerns, countries have legal punishments for the active desertion. Incredibly harsh punishments in the? U S, any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to deserve shall be punished if the offences did in a time of war, they will be punished by death or such other punishment. As a court martial. Direct what, if the desertion or attempt to desert occurs at any other time by such punishment other than death as a quart. May direct what that means is if we're in a war- and you run away technically you're, just gonna shots. The death penalty, if you make a court martialed and sentenced to several years,

jail. You something like that and in some cases in the Vietnam WAR there would be attempts to negotiate with deserters where people would say through one entity or another. They would say: hey woke. If you agree to come with us voluntarily, didn't have a year imprison dishonourable discharge. Go on with your life. We get it wars how come in from the cold, but Still it stuff to believe people when they say things like that, especially if you know legally, it is a death sentence near Julian Assange. Just come on over man is gonna, be fine, were you treat you well what's Ecuador got that we got. Oh too soon to say, and we should do and update on him soon, yeah, but all this in in play. We have to ask ourselves how far would

Uncle SAM, go to, by hook or by crook, bring its soldiers hope and will find out right after word from our sponsor. Today's horoscope brought to you by Geico Gemini. You may find yourself struggling with alertness today. That's because you stayed up last night celebrating the hundreds of dollars a year, you could say by switching to Geico. Your struggle will continue well into the afternoon during Philip Status Meeting, in which you say no Philip, I wasn't snoring. I have severe seasonal allergies. Your presentation was riveting well play Gemini, Geico, fifteen minutes, good, saying you, fifty percent or more fragile. Cheers trading is now available for all fidelity customers on the fidelity Mobile up by. U S, stocks and T S, commission free based on how much you want to spend instead of the share fractional Sherpa These can be entered out to three decimal places. As long as the value of the order is at least one cent dollar based.

It can be ensured out too to decimal places. So orders, are subject to an activity assessment, be from point zero. One dollar two point: zero three per one thousand dollars of principle: Fidelity brokerage services. Member and why I see civic here's where it gets crazy the? U S with above and beyond, all legal thresholds in attempts to surveillance. Or apprehend deserters with minimum publicity? Absolutely that one of the top priorities of of let's say the holes here were to avoid propaganda of successful desertion. So if we want anyone to know that people have deserted and made they got away with it like. Let's keep that to a minimum at least. And it was also a thing: were

probably not a good idea to actually go out in assassin deserters, like that's, probably a bad idea, this. Is you know? U turn him into a martyr of sorts again, I'm speaking from the sight of the intelligence system within the United States like this is what your imagining that would just it would totally fuel the fire for Anti war protests in the activists that are already inside the United States full minting these feelings of anti war, and this led to something that we research this week called Operation, chaos. Yes, yes, it's true. The intelligence agencies were in quite a pickle, a rock and a hard place type deliver. You dont want citizens deserters to flout the law right, you don't want them to be successful in their desertion, who certainly don't want

people to know that they can do any of that, but you also don't want to be known as a government that actively goes out and kills it so yeah did it. Neither of these are particularly good looks so operation chaos was formed, a spell bill operations Group with in the CIA, and it was secret for awhile for long time after it was closed down it is only function for number years rate goes astray. Wished in August of nineteen sixty seven, and it was then active for six for years, and the stated purpose here was to collect court Nate evaluate in report on foreign contacts with american dissidents, enough they collect information on dissonant Americans, and they did that via the FBI to mess

really. So if you want to get information on dissonance who were within the United States, they use the FBI cause. That's your purpose who's on the mailing list for this communist newsletter, yeah exactly and then I guess faithfully for these it for this intelligent. Community. There are so many active military stations overseas in other countries that they are just using these stations to collect information. On. Let's say, though, local dissidents. The american dissidents local would be experts, so how many people were involved do this on the SBA outside. Will you heard us say fifty two people at the top? There were officially fifty two staff members working on operation. Chaos officially will yeah because you have there are there were operatives, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they were probably operatives were not known in any official capacity or maybe even

or did anywhere just a friend of a friend, perhaps just Emily, in any undercover operation. There's gonna be a few of those few. Just actors- assets, yeah you're Thank you are actually right or a few people who may not know that they are assets are helping. The operation right, they asked, run a local newspaper area there, a photographer who happens to have a mysterious. Butter loaded, benefactor we'd like to buy some photos. Oh jeez, that's how it happens So the these successfully did this right for years they create files on thousands of? U S, citizens! Yes, two hundred officially american citizens, within these files, there are the names of over three hundred thousand people and organisations that were associated with those seventy two hundred people just to be clear. This is an active conspiracy,

the government? Is they conspirator in this case? But this is legal they're not supposed to be doing it and they sure did What I mean is not as bad as the essay from a couple years back and currently, but you know it's not great. I really feel weird to split acres. Yes, but the argument used to justify these actions was very very similar to the argument used today to justify the indices, warrantless, access to and Think you do online in theory. Anyone you associate with at anyone they associate with and on and on, and on Kevin Bacon, Pa sub sooner than you think in this gave an echelon five eyes forever payment of boy. Do you think we have records, come on liberally the joke about it in turn at the USA. If someone is listening to us by this point, we have like an associate producer

There's somebody that guy's that poor guy a girl that poor kid is so bored Raby. It's a junior officer. You think we Our man moving fire ray. You are I'll. Take it hey if your listening, I don't know if you can write in but feel free to do so We would love, we would love to hear from you and also You know my internet history friendly. Stranger, you'll see that I'm really into cauliflower recipe, so send a few away, cauliflowers amazed at the right time, other food yeah the food, not organism not of a good thing, actually love cooking, cauliflower, nice note, nor does as well, I believe, I'm abruptly guy, but I am trying to get into more vegetables man. Broccoli is my first love. Dude food Weiss, nice

this ticket a we're just try to prove that we are innocuous, always the inner and we have an opportunity to attempt to that, because we are aware that these programmes exist. The people being Sir veiled had very strong suspicions and in many cases very strong, circumstantial evidence, but for the most part they had no proof of what was happening. They had no opportunity to be like hey, You know and I'm great on the war, but have you heard about cauliflower? They couldn't do any of that endearing stuff and most people Even in the modern day didn't have any idea what was happening. We learned about this. Through a book called operation care, Ass, the Vietnam deserters, who fought the CIA brain washers and themselves all that's a great title, yeah. It's is pretty specific in this book. The author Matthew Sweet outlines these strange and often contradictory accounts from

Vietnam deserters, who joined the eight d c that we mention there in Sweden, and he also some about their opinions regarding intelligence agencies from the? U S, Russia in Sweden, all of whom infiltrated their group at some point in some shape Asher Form and then later infiltrated the subsequent extremist offshoots of the eighty sea because operation chaos, as as you outlined earlier, Matt is an umbrella term. Domestic monitoring for monitoring all sort of for the larger aim. The aspects of operation, chaos that Matthew Sweet focuses on r Exclusively the stories of the deserters living abroad and he tracks them down those

Still alive and he asked them to tell their stories, he also ask members of four. Intelligence agencies to tell their stories if they can't write, and the? U S, intelligence agency, the community in the: U S, a sustained effort to not only infiltrate these days, organizations, but to repatriate murders they're the ones. You would say, hey no foul come back. You can probably get you out of jail in a year, this will discharge, but you can go on with your life. All you have to do is that you made a mistake publicly, that you regret it still team America and. Have you seen the show bury yes, yes, Are you said yeah you did something just now that totally reminded me of. I forget his name, the super nice guy who's, one of the bad guys he's bald

hey berries, what's goin on just let you know they're going kill you so anyway, we therefore love that guy. That's one of my favorite characters in that show he's off, as we call Alypius his hair layer here, yet that that guy is. For me a scene stealer because every when he meets in this is that sport, and show for you this guy's, a a gangster you have, but who does horrific things, what I do The country did anything horrific. I couldn't even tell and this is why don't you help Iraq has been. I just I all I could think about. Was that for a split second and then it just reverberated yeah, as will the the securing thing about that dude is everyone he meets is described as a super nice. Galileo is a super nice guy, especially Berryville Bury do us juice.

I've gotta, go back very much. If you have to watch the do do check it out to it's, it's fantastic show and it's not bill haters in it, but it's it's not really how many, no, but I gotta, haters fantastic, yeah, yeah, the the comedy parts are pretty much that then we just went and did you know the other gangster is the bad guy from detectives? Yes, men, so awesome. Now I'm impressed ok so anyway, oh yes, well yeah, yeah, yeah oil, graphic, widespread abuses of power by the intelligence agencies, not just the? U S. Also russian Sweden. So they wanted to the. U S wanted to repatriate these deserters, suppress or knowledge.

Their anti war messages ripe and, in this book, Matthew, sweet, explores the explores the facts through statistics, but then primarily through anecdotes and accounts of the deserters, and the other players on the field so well, who were what's our who's? Who, if we were to do to what are some of the main players in this. One is one of the deserters is Chuck Onan RO in a n and he he joined the the! U S, Marines, when he was a bit younger than he ended up deserting to swim. Visa Iceland. With this eighty c- and the other information it was in the book. It there's a little section at the front of his book that gives you kind of a run down of the characters and it said he's a now: a big fat,

medical marijuana right yeah. If you read sweets, initial encounters with the guy gets to his house. His daughter spend some time describing how does do things marijuana save the world and how he's going to start this growing operation and how extremely uncomfortable, because I think at some point, while Mattie Suite is talking to the sky drug deal occurs. Oh it's weird that I think somebody comes to Dubai. Marijuana jeez ends. This is this: is one guy there's their other ones, one of the big players and one of them controversial is Fellow named Michael veil. Yes, this is, I guess, the Lee of these, the eighty see the American deserves committee.

He was considered by some to be the Rasputin of the ABC, and this guy was suspected of being a CIA infiltrators. He you used, interrogation and breakdown techniques on people- oh Jesus, he was known for breaking down- would be members of the eighty zero people trying to join the ABC. These we were worried, deserted on the basis of their politics or their beliefs, reducing them to tears winnowing way their personality, so we can remake them a new and a lot of people followed him. He had disciples, you know a lot of people hated, the guy and using those sorts of techniques. Of course, Lend some prevents the idea that someone is a CIA infiltrate, her words from it halogens agency. But what becomes apparent very quickly here is that these people were all

all, accusing each other yeah. No one was dedicated enough to the cause. No one was ideological. It everyone could be a more. The paranoia is definitely running high because there is another gentlemen named Bo Birmingham. He went by our low Jacobs for part of that time, he was a student radical weathermen. If you will pardon me underground and he was suspected of being a CIA? full traders well by other members of the group. It's the hip new thing to do He had a home, and then we get into the actual spice the people who were confirmed intelligence officers like Richard over. Who is most ahead of operation chaos, or at least in some ways, functional head of it right. In He was considered by a lot of others to be paranoid, and secretive in his own workings, which again you know if you running an operation like that, that's full of secrecy and lie

you gotta be pretty paranoid right right and he expected the same out of the people who worked with and for him and for his part, you will argue in does arguing the book. I believe The mission was entirely meant to surveillance and collect information not to do any sort of skulduggery or wet work or kidnapping or south. Nation and many that black bag hoopla, stated goals are just that just vacuum up the information deficit whose sending who notes who's, calling that's the official story. This is another member of the intelligence community, the pops up in the book,

Oh yeah, there's a gentleman named Frank, real Falco in he was. He was working on the black Panther detail of operation chaos because they were looking at what they consider to be extremist groups and they considered sections of the black Panthers to be. Just that in this guy was the only officer or so far, at least according Matthew Sweet that has spoken publicly about operation chaos so far and the stories continue its it's just strange to learn that not only operation go on successfully on a global scale for what six years yet more than half a decade? But there were no repercussions for the? U S, a lot of the disasters found their way back to the states or found their way to a friendly country and many there have been rigged.

Lists of whether someone from the outside looking here, we call their life successful or unsuccessful. The truth is Their lives were tremendously affected by this programme. In ways that we probably still don't fully understand, and there are still questions there, We don't know for sure who was or was it a more who did or did not provide information? Many of these people had torn Is personal lives, drug addiction, right, heavy debts, childhoods full of abuse in its very difficult to speculate? What motivated them and how deep they got. We know something happened, the is Information got out there, but we have to ask ourselves. What does this mean in the long run?

change the course of the Vietnam WAR? Probably not probably nights in comparison to two point: seven million soldiers: it's not that Many people were there any large movements from groups that were helping out dissidents. I mean it doesn't seem to there's no at least there are not. There aren't many no think of a single one where the United States took any kind of action against AIDS billion group in another country because they were aiding dissidents, Ellie done overtly. No, I mean yes that we would know about rights right its common onward through proxy groups and so on, but we have to think beyond the events of then still have many unexplained things. Agent orange is an example, occurred during the Iraq war at least allegations of exposure to it? Is it possible that programmes like this exist

now in the current wars, the? U S is embroiled in or I guess call them wars anymore? The current conflicts ripe who is allowed to the situation? Yet? Who is monitoring these interactions? Why people deserting in the numbers that occurred, in vietnam- more probably not probably not, because there's not a draft yeah, but that could change. Oh, that could absolutely change. It just takes an act of Congress, rights. So we we wonder, we have to wonder if there's more, if they don't want to know, if there's an operation, chaos to point out there somewhere and if so, what's it called? Currently, the EU

military is comprised of volunteers, meaning that no one is conscripted or drafted, and there are no laws. They compel a? U S, citizen, to serve mandatory time in the armed forces, and that's that's not the same in other countries, South Korea, Israel, for example, have laws requiring citizens to serve in the military for x amount of time? Absolutely the one thing I would say in the: U S: it is still compulsory for all male citizens to submit their information to the selective service system. With thirty days of their eighteenth birthday and that's just to make sure The selective service system remains in case. A draft is necessary in Congress. Like puts the hammer down a makes it happen, causes Malcolm Gladwell, so eloquently explains in the tipping point nothing seems like it will ever happened until suddenly. It does their great point, Malcolm Point Gray Point Mr Gee,

day we and our episode with this leave this important point. Yes, there is no draft going on. There is no operation, chaos that we are aware of, even though the technological abilities. To do so. Are far beyond what they ever were before in Vietnam, oh yeah, we're all carrying the average and carrying a tiny spy in their path you cameras at least and MIKE right then how tat visit to get in there who watches the watchman all that jazz, all that slow jazz, and what about your wrist, Vienna, Smart Watcher, who knows swear. What have you got? A Google homer and Amazon echo in your house, a man or a couple security cameras? laser tv, have a camera on it. Does your play station have a microphone? You know what may be if they did. I would take better care of me: like to eat more healthy food. You know the hurried start,

the threats to the base level check it out. I mean Kale beg you, please state, but one other important things hit on here is that in many cases these disorders live on today, somewhat ripe and their real people. Are they perfect? now, who is some folks, we can pursue them straight out. Traders other folks, would consider them the equivalent of freedom fighters and there are people who will make the argument that if they broke the rules, the rules no longer apply to them. But that goes into what sort of importance we place on the rule of law and it goes into perhaps even more importantly,. What importance we place on the law makers, obeying the laws they create? Well, somebody think about operation. Chaos do have you read the book? Do you know

the about it. Have you ever encountered anyone who was a a dissident, an American? Otherwise we love, to hear your stories. We love for you to contact us in just talk to us about it. You can find us on twitter. You can find us on. Facebook were conspiracy, stuff on Instagram, we're conspiracy, stuff, show in finer website stuff. They don't want you to know that com. You can also call us one. Eight, three s, T d w why tea came. Do it call us you might get on the air after we get enough messages? We need more messages honestly. So, like stop what you do. All US I don't think we can sing a song together, something it will go to voicemail get weird with it. Yeah give weird we we would love you too. If you dont want to do any of that stuff, please send us an email. We are conspiracy at house of words, dot com

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