Did you know? Guy goes now offering an extra fifteen percent credit on car and motorcycle policies. That's fifteen percent! On top of what Geico could already save you. So what are you waiting for your dentist to actually believe and your flashing everyday absolute Lee Great, you're coming down in her sweet. Of course. Wonderful, then matter even the look in their great z. In six months. There has never been a better time to switch to Gaga save an extra fifteen percent when you switch by October, seventh limitations apply visit, Geico Duck offer. Details It seems like it should be easy, but it's not just getting out of bed and getting your days started, trying to accomplish everything you need to do in your day that to do list as a lot easier when you're getting news stories and music to lift your mood and preparing for the day ahead connected to the things that make you laugh and make you think or make you want to reach out and share with a friend every morning with us, it's Elvis Joanne in the morning show listen to us on cue, one or two or anywhere in the world on the Iheart radio app

you at those two psychic powers and government conspiracies history is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn this stuff. They don't want you to know a production of. I hardly hello back to the show. My name is meant, my name is no. They call me Ben we're joint, as always with our super producer. Paul mission, control, deck and, most importantly, or you you are here, and that makes this stuff. They don't want you to know. We hope this episode finds you healthy and and maybe in the grand adventure perhaps even out on the ocean, now that so many countries are relaxing alot,

there there formerly draconian lockdown policies today, we'd like to explore. Ocean, along with you in a way the ocean is fascinating. We, no less about what goes in on in the ocean now than we do about What goes on the surface of the moon and a Euro people have very few well. I've been to the moon a lot of people have been on the server. Of the ocean and a lot of we'll go to the bottom, but far fewer people have returned to the top in one quickening about as we ve just been learning and as was announced by NASA today. I believe we are sending a new little rover up to the moon called the viper. That's supposed to be landing on the moon and going around in looking for water in twenty twenty three, which is pretty interesting. I believe that.

All. That kind of mission is also at least partially intended to be moving ground for later searches on Mars. Is that correct, absolutely there's a couple with a little divining rod. That is the kind of guy. It's when, in its water, it is kind of like sniff surround for it yet lighting wheels in a small protruding divining, as you rightly spring loaded. Well, I mean that's an interesting question, because I it goes into the concept of vibration and sound, which is White we all sound- is- is vibration and going back to the ocean, the biggest source of water that we are. I experience We are familiar with this species, We know that it is just like the surface of the planet, its riotous with life. The thing is that the creek is any ocean wherever they are in the ocean of these seas of ours. Neatly,

a vastly different existence. In some cases, it's almost alien life often heard it said that cephalopods, especially these, intelligent ones like Octopus, as are the closest hours he sees has to you an example of what alien life would look like an and its fascinating stuff. But it's also show obscured to us. It's it's a call to the wheat. We don't know what is happening in the old, I now and if you want to get a look at that really recommend the I think it's called blue Planet or in a planet, maybe there's a episode about the deep, deep, like Mariana, tranche deep ocean creatures. And they look like aliens like the angler fish with a little light bulb thing.

Heads and this one called the vampire squid that looks literally like something straight out of the gates of l, but the adaptations it happened at those depths with such little light are absolutely fascinating and, like you say, bend the close thinks it alien life, and I think we were gonna, be able to ever be set our eyes on and I like them, every sufficient right right, end right and the thing is because, unfortunately because the vast majority of human exploration, invention and ingenuity pens zine, you know the cause. Sadly the monetary economy. By far the most popular religious belief of our age. I we find I was position where, as a species, weak get down to incredible deaths in the ocean, but we have to propitiate to the economic gods. First, it's. That means it's look. Pretentiousness aside, very, very expensive, to explore the ocean source,

and people have always been in this push pull over whether or not it's a good investment to explore the ocean. Militaries are one of the most powerful. Well forget one of humility, These are the most powerful human force on were below the surface of the ocean and because it is so difficult and expensive to get actual people down past a certain death ferny substantial length of time. We have built tools to tell us. What's going on, we built we built this kind of synthetic mimicry of a natural thing that exist. Way before humans actually existed. We invented something called sonar

and every ship into the marble comic book. He rode daredevil here the facts, ass, a really good way. To put it that's exactly what sooner does its also called or is called stands for sound navigation in ranging and its extremely common? It's used in almost every That's all. There is large enough to travel around for any reason on on the ocean, and, just like you said, devil it allows us to see without visualizing is using sound to essentially visualize what exists, both in the deaths and out in front of you and basically in three and sixty degrees around you within the water, and it really is fascinating that we were able to figure out how this works. Just humanity in general and in it is really it's cool how it, how it mimics natural processes that a lot of other animals do.

Yeah and it's an old old technology, it's much older than you might think. A lot of people who are perhaps in the younger demographic of our fellow listeners, made understandably sooner is something they came about. After what would you say, guys, world war, two maybe yeah, seems kind turkey in euros? Has a good futuristic via when you think about you now, the Red out in the way it looks like a submarine enable vessel with like the grid and, like you, are sending out the pings and being able to recreate. You know you know me topography underwater using sound? That sounds pretty kind of brave new world in futuristic, but we also have to remember that this is a core cortex ology that exists in the natural world and the worst kind of just mimicking that we sort of hijacked from organic beings like whales and dolphins know you're absolutely right, so you can imagine how blood say

someone studying animals bats even or any one else. That's any other animal that using echolocation, but perhaps specifically in animal, that using sound within the water within the ocean to either communicate or to figure out where is in. What's you know what dangers look ahead? So imagine that stunning animals- someone in eighteen twenty two created or like imagine that there is at least the precedent, the thing that existed, that became sooner you gentleman named Daniel today there is a oh underwater, He was using this to calculate the speed of sound as its travelling through water rather than air. Like a view, is very, very different in it, and it does travel very differently so that that occurred way back in eighteen, twenty two, then you do have to fast forward a little bit

further to nineteen o six, when modern sooner as we generally understand it exists today, there is a guy named Louis Nixon who built a what would consider to be a sooner like device and it was ethically made to detect icebergs here, with or without a silly question are not made herself up about was attacked. Gee around the Titanic got iceberg headed Vienna will link with they had just had visual on that or lay that would have been in the lady. Hundred would know what else are true. No, it was after it was after nineteen o six was area Zilla, Louis Nixon's, invention by James. This is is widespread and that's a m. We can call it. Modern sooner but mom sooner is really galvanised by war. So many other, so many other great technological breakthroughs

it happens as away for people to figure out how to kill more people or to figure out how to keep warm or from killing them. You can cut. Imagine a been oh all right Nixon, so this thinking, detect icebergs right or can detect You know name the adversary to take Germans and and submarines, of course, are an epoch. In all their own. In the modern day, their fascinating thing he's a world war. Two they were horrible place, to be, I add a world war, one that is even more true, but these things could be done. You know the concern about what submarines would become a world war, two really triggered this research, and sooner and so on. You know

not to labour. The point sonar works in in a pretty straightforward way. The way we can understand it at a high level without getting into too much of the the physics here is that it emits sound. Is being being. Here is how long the echo of those sound waves takes to return after it hits something that means, for example, if we're all I'd on the conspiracy crews? That's Spell Essie A and We are using sooner shallow water. Then our ping you're gonna returned to us more quickly because they are travelling a shorter distance, but of what over a very deep part of the water. Then it's going to take long, longer for those sound waves to return- and this is This is common knowledge, tat, bats, work itself, daredevil works is nothing particularly scary about it get there.

Our two types of solar, though the first one is kind of what we described active sooner, makes the sound makes them and wait for the thing and then you're like ok there, we are in general. The low longer distance stuff is going to use much lower frequencies and more pro have some otmar appear here in today's episode, but the Louis long distance active sonar kind of makes this like but would sound. I end its valuable boats. Ships need this week. Sooner for a lot of stuff, but there's another when you need to know about net is passive. Solar passive sooner listens but doesn't transmit.

And these are often used by militaries by scientific research, uses these systems as well for four entirely different applications. Passive sonar systems usually have large data bases of sonic information. They collect a computer system, can use these databases so identified different classes of ships or types of actions they might be taking like speed or particular type of weapon that their releasing and even the make and model of a ship sooner is also a super valuable tool for, like we said earlier, creating kind of recreating topography of water landscapes, nautical charts and maps Caning, various underwater hazards, mapping of the sea floor, looking for shipwrecks

ours is taking take a step further, just because we're all dreamers, fearless God, buried treasure, and today it's used over more than seventy percent of the world's oceans. So like we sort of teased earlier. This is not something that man just invented out of whole cloth says something that Wales use as well in other underwater creatures, whales in particular, use it to know how to move around the house to make sure they are not running and any icebergs ur battles. Sir, what have you are. It is any kind of obstacles and their large creatures and fascinating to be even more fascinating. Then the whole concept we're talkin my here, which is sonar a lot of folks out there. I am podcast land or probably can we surprised to learn just how We do not understand about whales in this the year, twenty, twenty yeah yeah. We we

embarrassingly cartoonish league clueless about a lot of aspects of whales. In general. I want a separate all things when we talk about whales and solar, we, after a member first off that there are quite a few different types of Wales. Often I think when we hear whales, just the term, we think of the largest whale right to the blue whale. That is that it it's called a baleen whale. They ve got those weird plates. They swim through ocean, they just digest a bunch of very small things that stuff just funnels in yeah. That's just that's just their bag. They stuck with it there very good at it and their huge, and then there are toothed whales. Adele is like an example of a tooth? Well, these are the ones that use echo location to move around the ocean.

An echo location like we like, we said earlier. It's the natural worlds, predecessor to sooner Wales have what you could call language, there's a lot of research, that's gone into the language of different whales, the ideas of the the wrongs, and so on so far away rules that are using echolocation, they're coming Katy in high whistles and pulse burst of, sounds and then clicks and this is interesting- there's something I did not know. The clicks made by toothed whale or the loudest sounds me by any marine mammal, which means the ones On a time before the age of the to pursuing they were, The loudest regular sounds in the ocean and- and it sounds hyperbolic, but it is easy he's insane like they can use this

They can use these things in our own weapon, ized Way to their mapping the sea floor as they swim being their mapping underwater obstacles, like you said: Matt Dep the water sure lines. During our other animals are and then there's this theory. But pretty new. It says maybe some of their high intensity This sounds are all like almost like the weapon, do maybe they're studying or disorienting pray, maybe they're attacking with sound. I mean that's fine crazy and science is pretty compelling. It's also a very at a very sensitive trade. That's why you know like like at. We see that animals tend to have a primary sense, so of a lead singer in the band of their senses for humans

a visual creature right. We have taste and smell and sound and and there are very important, but we like to see stuff and for many of these animals there, there protagonist in their their gang of sensors, The leader of their sensory heist crew is out is the psycho location, which makes sense, because you can't You can't see very well answered depths of the ocean right. It is more difficult and so courses can be those in in some, their bodies are gonna, be more sensitive. This they waited dogs are primarily olfactory creatures. They live their sense of smell. That's where you do if you want jerk, don't Obama, dog or a cat on the nose? They will be infuriated with you this. The interesting thing to talk about their been just about how sensitive the sensors are on them on to Wales, but also just the differing use,

is of sounds they emanate in your time. Others clicks and being able to almost weapon eyes. Them is like an audio flash bang or something too to be able to use like that. They ve also got sounds and not just tooth. Wheels can also think about a couple of their different kinds. Gray whales BO had whales, they have, they have behaviors that are considered to be avoidance, behaviors or like escape behaviour, and the sounds that they can emanate win. I essentially distressed are extremely low, in some of the sum of the law after the other louder things there would have existed in the ocean, it just again fascinating creatures. We have a tunnel I mean you know we're talking mostly about tooth wheels here, but if you go back to the the billion wheels. It's not.

Though they are just silently trawling. The waters and going around the these are the animals there. You would here. If you ve ever heard anyone talk about, we'll song or if you ve, heard any recordings, perhaps of something you'd be called a whale song. These whales do make a lot of sounds and they communicate shoot through. These sounds with each other and against the same kind of thing, talk about. Where is the food? Where are we going where? Where are you Here. I am pleased that our current understanding and we only assume that it gets much much more complicated than that. We just don't have a way to translate. Yet we You know that there are dialogue or accent differences in indifferent groups. Of Surrey, Wales? We know that of these communications seem intergenerational right, that they are taught to their young results

a heartbreaking story of IE in tone, deaf whale that was excluded from from its community flights or leave the heartbreak to you to find dear lister. Fellow can sphere real is no. I think you said you found a pretty good Armada pack. Description of our what a whale song was is like right now. Is that correct yeah it was used for your mark was seen on paper and I tried to pronounce it out for you guys off MIKE. I'm gonna give a nurse You're not gonna, do an impression of awareness that kind of dual like human reading. Onomatopoeia it's something along the lines of blur la LA ass, beautiful. You can also find recordings, of course, of of whale songs. I believe from different

do like different years, different part the ocean very well aware of this, there is not at. This point is whether she, and I would ask if I were here in this for the first time, there's not at this point. What we understand is a good translation right, there's not there- have been attempts to communicate with whales through through time. Logical means, but right now, sadly enough, one of the most effective ways that humans have communicated with. Wales is through so are. We have to talk about how these processes interact. Ok, understand echolocation. We understand solar right. I've got a new, the got the basic so a now, two thought experiments. Imagine you're walking in a dim gigantic grew you're, trying to find your way to the door to a negress on a sudden thought

thousands of laser lights are shining into your eyes. Are thousands of flashlights? What they're doing is whoever is using. Those lights is illuminating, the room for themselves, but they are blinding you in the process as part of the reason that police in intimidation tactics will make sure We keep a light on your eyes. It puts the and getting the light shone on them. I add a tremendous disadvantage. It it's over a similar thing with Wales or since we're talking about sound right rather than talking about so Imagine that you're hanging out with with the four of us at an apple, These I see the four of us is Paul is, of course, they are too to be in an Applebee's right now, the Alps we're having a chat. You know maybe Maybe Matt is is going up to, I don't know, do

the important more right the script later and then nor your ear. Gonna say something to my K. Don't forget the you know make it that too Margaret Margarita there's something but writers. Who's gonna see that somebody I don't know Maybe never will meet again burst into the lobby and a blast sounds which sound that it's like, when you can feel the base in your vote bones times. Twenty forget. I mean to tell me about that: Margarita are eardrums or bleeding we're like starting to lose consciousness and then window. Our passes. We we are dead Yeah I mean in any area crossover listeners too ridiculous. History will remember an episode we did with a pre. Eminent Bert on underwater explosions, name doctor, Rachel Lance- and we talked about this of the honey, which is a super rudimentary, civil war submarine

Jane, you know, is a thing that its I basically like a Flintstones car submarine the crank with your feet, really really dangerous. Every time they did a test run of it. People died. And then it actually did single worship but doktor Lance her area of expertise was talking about the way these underwater shockwaves affect our bodies. Our internal organs and they can cause serious internal damage to our viscera, and that's gonna, we're talking about here, yeah and with those two ideas. This at the very least complicates things so that our question today, what is happening here what's happening under the surface of the ocean and how Are you complicit we'll tell you after word from our sponsor. Did you know? Guy goes now offering an extra fifteen percent created on car and motorcycle policies. That's fifteen percent! On top of what Geico could already save you? So what are you waiting for your teenager

help around the house. Ok, mom! I empty dishwasher vacuum the basin and folded the sheets out of the drier. What oh and next I'm clean, Mittens Letterbox, Irene some kind of prank show or something that's a camera there has never been a better time to switch to Geiger save an extra fifteen percent. When you switch by October, seventh limitations apply visit, Geico dot com for details. I got great school questions in a million dollars. They give away our use martyr than a bed greater lapse. Get ready one of the most part their game shows of all time is come Audio up as a pod gas? It's easier staring shawl on a planet. All these grown observed the viewers answer grade school level, questions and prove that they are smarter than a fifth greater progress in your hope, you're wrong on somebody whose hands probably smell like Plato.

It's easy. As top up one funny supper and most embarrassing game show ever are used smarter than a fifth greater licit Ali Iheart Radio, lap apple pod casts or where ever you get your podcast Here's where it gets sooner is massively Paul at me here? We have to say it sooner is massively up whales. People knew about it before the public did an evil. One was open secret, the militaries of the world which were an end Nero shipping interests did some after was similar to the actions of oil companies

when they knew about climate change, the kind of fought against this right and they did it, for they did it pretty successful evening. They did it for what they would see is can

reasons would they would see as once again one of the great buggy men of history, the greater good? So what happened? So if we go back to the early nineteen hundreds when we would consider that error to be the beginning of sonar, let's say you know round World WAR one really, then we would have to go much further. We're talking. Sixty something years to get to around nineteen, seventy one, which is what we would say as the beginning of academic concerns about what sooner is doing to wildlife, the effects that its having on whales and other creatures and animals in the ocean, and there were there were two men that were looking into this Roger Pain and Douglas web. They,

in order to prove that before we humans had ships, small ships, large ships, massive ships just go travelling across the ocean and within the ocean before We're doing that the tones from creatures called thin wheels. So there is a specific type of the tones that they were generating in the processes we ve talked about. Prior to this, they could travel as far as four thousand miles within the EU. And still be discernible against just the ambient general background noise that exists when you're in the ocean four thousand miles to the approximate distance of the Amazon River from the beginning from the mouth to the end, so they could say what up I'm I'm cool cool well from the mouth of the Amazon River lookin for a cool while at Tang out with

and then even if they were on the very far end of the Amazon, four thousand miles away these other whales could hear them spread terrible example. I mean it, it's pretty close to the internet when you think about just how large the ocean is in. More, we that is, if you're talking about four thousand miles in every direction, it's a good point that a lot of people to realise that the internet is four thousand miles log that has a heart is a hard limit been put into place. We did not make the rules, we just want to argue with the information, but there there's another istat there. That is, I think, an even more amazing you mention background noise right fishing is like, if you, if you ever been in a forest when nothing bad is happening there. You realize that easy, it is cacophonous. You know,

there's so much noise going on and if don't hear a lot of noise, it their because you're there or because something worse than yours there so be careful. It's amazing, when you think about it. If you look at what the Animal Welfare Institute as well as the anyway a couple other organizations, at least what they have on their websites, what they say churches in this isn't completely accurate, but you can you can look further into this if you wish, but the relative, sound level and intensity per decibels of ambient ocean noise levels, or its range from around fifty five to eighty five decibels, just as standing, and if you compare that to what the effective

levels of elephants. Sooner are that's that's around two hundred and thirty and higher decibels. So, just if you, if you can go ahead and imagine- and that's what we're talking about here and yet they that I think is, is a stunning difference there. It also it also reminds me that we know that in the days before propeller driven water craft, which obviously predate sooner these, these whale noises in sounds: could travel even for we ve even louder, because your these propellers make noise pollution as well. The way, else in the era the halcyon days of pre propeller ocean, they could make sounds that would travel thirteen thousand miles, that's an estimate and the real It's an estimate is because that's more

then the diameter of earth, so imagine being able You communicate so well. You know where we're whales were swimming around and we shall hey, the later behind us. We hear ourselves saying hey, I mean, as I can because of a lot of obstacles, the land and stuff. But if there were an uninterrupted sphere that would be possible. It's crazy! It's the the the shot heard round the world probably came from a whale instead of a person it does make. You think that maybe maybe creatures that exist in the water, just you know as it is a water planet, were the ones that were meant to be. The heavy intelligent species that evolved ha. That's that's gonna. Take me down for another another time. It's like the it's like the old Mitchell Web sketch. You know where these through nazis are taken at each other and one I'm goes. Are we? The baddies

are: we demand guys remains, so we know that, just like there are different types of Wales, just like their different types of ships. There are different types of sonar, so maybe, let's talk a little bit about something called mid frequency sonar. There's been research on this in the thick of low frequency, high frequency, mid frequency, it's the Goldilocks, a solar not to be confused like MID sent. Three sonar which is very clean lines, and you know really aesthetically pleasing, but not particular comfortable UK that was a bad day joke, but furnishing my new house. So that's where my is that right now so yeah, but there was evidence of something called mid frequency sonar and how it affects whales,

As far as the nineties, which, compared to the invention of sonar itself, is pretty recent. In fact, whalers are the ones who actually faded and used it to the detriment of these giant majestic creatures in among whales by Roger Paine, who we mentioned earlier. He notes that whalers figured out that a frequency of three thousand hurts sent whales intellect panic, my cousins to freak out and to surface for air moon. They didn't even need that, because of the stress, probably robbed them of oxygen, they were breathing more rapidly, and so they would come up to the surface. And and this allowed them more opportunities to shoot them, so they had these essential research. So our weapons on their boats that they were used her to me deploy that frequency into the water and reap the rewards.

Less useful, who is designed to help them track Wales, but as soon as they that sweet spot frequency real reason they would use it. Their primary reason became just what you say. No, I make the whales do something called panting so when they panic, they release and annual like you said they can stay underwater a long time as long as they have the are stored up, then they had to dad to surface and then the wailers will get them so. So at least some members of humanity figured out There were ways that solar clearly affected Wales, but he, but it goes beyond, aside from sooner being used by whalers, which has an example which more people knew an aside from it, obviously hampering communication in the gigantic Applebee's of the ocean. How else does it affect these creatures? The answer

is something we all heard of. We ve all seen pictures of it. It's called be cheap, yes In nineteen. Ninety six men named Alexandrovitch Francis proved that twelve cuviers beak whales beach themselves. They be some selves alive, it wasn't as though they were deceased and then washed up. They swam ashore they did that along the coast of Greece, according to Alexander, as these whales did, that while NATO was testing and active sonar system and there were using two different kinds of we. Ve already talked about both mid range and low frequency. Transducers oh, he essentially just kind of was able to a ninety. Ninety six Alexandra Francis to point to it and say: hey, look! Look at these beached whales. Look! There's, there's twelve them there.

They were beached when this sooner system was being tested to actually point to it, not not maybe for the first time, but to really show it, and the article was published get this two years after this occurred in nature, nature magazine and nineteen. Ninety eight, I like it graduated in nature, nature magazine suggested earlier yeah and indeed a fine job of above pre being a link establishing a link between these mass beatings of Wales. The use of military grade sonar. In order to do that, they concluded They're. All though you know you can't completely rule out pure coincidence, there was greater than a ninety nine point, three percent chance that sonar testing caused that that situation-

the idea that a low power sonar could glitterings keep in mind. This was now operating a fork. A city, a low power sonar could cause this level of of chaos was really disturbing and in point two, how danger this technology could actually be within these populations of Wales and by that point, most three judgment focused possibility of figuring out away them mixed soften these signals are met, them in some way, because this ain't, no, it's obviously like selling their in whalers were using the sonar to actually mess with the whales, but the military great sonar isn't intended to hurt. Wales is just sort of an unfortunate byproduct, like birds getting caught in wind turbines and so they were, they were looking into some possibilities of masking them. To prevent situations like this also to prevent interference with things like meaning call

and other you know, functional uses of sonar by whales like avoiding giant obstructions not crashing into sea walls or whatever you want to call them. I just want to reiterate here before we continue for it. That way You said there, nor will we ve about what is called here. What we are calling her a typical you landings were beating of Wales, at least a large numbers of them are there. For a long time we ve been observing that you, hopefully remember as a kid seeing stories about that or may be pictures, and papers or something. I certainly do just wanted just point out there It wasn't until ninety ninety eight ninety six that it was really known that this stuff was causing these pretty terrible occurrences shocked programme on Face Doc, give honestly

mean that sounds cynical, but look at the timeline people people knew the tough thing about being Euro bomb Side of science is that you have to have the facts on your side as well. You have to conduct this research, but it to me it's weird that scientific community. It was being surprised I that, even though we already knew that soon, in General- could cause this up as mere fact honestly. I understand why a typical mass strand, in or beaching is a technically correct term, but it is pretty misleading, because man speaking in general, should be pretty a I get. English is such a tricky language and we put so many unnecessary things on their like drug free schools. Own really, I don't know that's a different problem for another day.

Why should not these all be atypical? I complete agree and imagine what's happening to that creature really amount. We we talked about earlier on, about being new, an environment where something comes along with just the most massive sound that it just you there's no way for you to get out and away from the sound, because that sound is just traveling were for you go in its permeating the air. No matter you know worth were think while going inside of a house or something or a structure? But imagine if that sound fear on the desert or something, and it's a sound that you can only continue to run in the desert, but it's the sound is leaving its just as loud as it was as you're trying to escape it. That's what these creatures are going through in the water and that's why the beaching occurs, because there's just they're going until they can't go. It's just a tough thing. The tough thing to think about

yeah, that's Emmy! That's a powerful way. To put it. The ocean is one big room without a door to close eye in that it. That is terrifying. So here: here's where whereat kind of a water at the moment. The late Pandora's merit jars. Unscrew people know what's happening, maybe everybody, but that makes you know, what's happening, scientists new happening the military, certainly, is I strongly Suspect of military was much more aware of this much earlier, but it gets facile the year two thousand issue receives more widespread attention outside of scientific and environmentalist community, where a mass stranding occurs in the Bahamas. Three different types of Wales wash up on the beach: it's crazy, the public,

backlash is huge, eventually, Uncle SAM, says: okay, this might have, maybe just maybe have something to do with us. But what aspect of the sooner stuff they were doing. What super necessary and then later they came back and they were like. Ok it his eyes still. This is super necessary stuff to do it's for the greater good and now as we move forward passed. Two thousand and more research is conducted both events from two thousand to two thousand twenty and retroactively on previously unexplained events from before. Then we see that the list of speakers he's whose mass strains are linked to naval exercises. Just keeps growing it's more more yes

and that includes beak whales. Dwarf whales pick me whale sperm, whales, pilot whales, several species of dolphin and also harbour porpoise. Is we ve seen several mass stranded in the northern indian Ocean that also inside with naval tests and exercises involving sonar, and that includes one of the largest ever recorded two hundred to two hundred and fifty dolphins, Brandon rate beached that still has a really gotten a whole lot of press or attention. The media. I mean it. Like the whales ah are going to court court is a human invention. A legal system is a human invention, and so humans would have to participate if they One way to help the whales in a legal sense, we're gonna pause forward from our sponsor and then come back with.

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join me for the gratitude diamonds. Every Monday to Friday, on these Iheart radio Apple Pie castle. Ever you get your PA guests were back from them, to law and order maritime in response to lawsuits bought by multiple environmental groups? Do you Navy, created a protocol regarding the use of sooner and Wales via the basic idea Is that before using certain sooner tools or devices. You check to see whether there are animals around there would be affected, and if there are You can only turn your sonar setting up to axe degree like ex level a power, etc. This is not a perfect system because it is pretty much the

and as we'll get to it as pre, much defined as what will not permanently damaged these creatures when the biggest problems that exist The technology than the Navy has. Is their long range sooner and it's is it's a tool called survey Once toad array sensor system, low frequency, active whew That was not at the end. Thousand alone so soon is Sir Tass elevate or Sir Tass elevated and once once lowered from the massive real, which is ok, you have to imagine this thing. Being lower down, into the water a bit one of their massive spools of like heavy wire. So it's this day The lower down into the water in this system has what what there were, what are called

but they are calling source projectors there. Eighteen of them there are these huge you can think of. Unlike you, if you're I would imagine, I'm just thinking about a car, maybe with sub refers in it or something or if you're, at a concert- and you see the big speakers that are designed specifically to send out Low frequency stuff? Imagine that there are eighteen of those attached to this thing and they just begin emitting the loudest low frequency tones that you can imagine and the big problem with all of that the frequencies, those the loans of their emanating there around a hundred to five hundred hurts also happen to be the sweet spot where white, what you'd call the Goldilocks zone for or a lot of marine life. It's not too high. It's not too low, it's right where they want it and we're just boom bartering that frequency level with our stuff.

Where they communicate right. Yes, it's late like, if you think, with humans, correct me if I'm wrong here, but the audible human vocal arrange has a pretty sweet. Oh it it's! It goes pretty load a pretty high. When yes, I like one hundred to one hundred and twenty hurts specifically, is where that part of our that that's the frequent range that our voices fill up and that we are able to hear and men, that's something we think about bruising podcast. Is we a cue things you ok filter out and boost certain frequencies to make things as intelligible as possible, various systems and from far away so we tend to scoop out. One of those low frequency which can create kind of mine and make it a little harder understand, but it would be the equivalent of is that so spot of a hundred to one hundred twenty herds that we need to be able to year for human voice to have conversations something

just generating that frequency at allowed volume to the point where we couldn't hear over it, and it was just clogging up our communications ability and it was half Constantly like some form of tonight is that we all had in our ears. At the same time, it would make you go insane. You would become and in same person be chaos, absolute misery. I would also put it this way. Imagine. You don't know where these things are coming from. You have no Do you, you know that there are odd things they look like creatures on surface the water or under the surface- and you know that A very loud in their admitting these things right began to insanity. If you do see that suffer veto. I'm another sensory input confirming that. It's almost like yours ring voices, oh wow

or in understanding of what tat is right, I mean that's wow, that's really rough way to look at a will. That's. Why way. Some experts have said you. Marine mammals perceive the noises from this search s elevating as a threats. They react as if it's a threat understand right now: environmentalist want the navy to limit what they call explosions in sooner in areas where its noon that breeding animals will gather annually in certain parts of the year. We have to point out that these are these are not soon earth activity he's there used in acts of war or hot conflicts, vast majority of these things come about from testing array scenario, gaming, we'll make sense. You gotta try

you know. A sustained basis are trying different, like you said, like different scenarios, it's interesting to ban is the idea of limiting this. In regulating this, it serve a philosophical one where you have to like way. Is it worth some Wales for the progress of military supremacy. You now is it worth some birds to have your energy, you now I mean it's always you know weighing these things, but it does feel like with the Kurds. Ministration that were in philosophically protecting wildlife. Is going to you now pale in comparison to Vienna having the best with and the most powerful military on the planet. So you know stuff, like Thou tech, I could see going by the wayside and end to your point been already seems to be going by the wayside. I mean, I think this very good point. No. I would also say that we have to be. We have to be careful

and realise that the U S bill is Harry, tends to go about business as usual, pretty often regardless of who is regardless of which political party is in power in a lot of ways that that machine continues to run, and it is a philosophical thing just throw in some specific since two thousand seven this government did publish guidelines for the level of noise for injury to be on the record. They consider impulsive sounds at the level of two thirty decibels is the uppermost safe exposure limit for All marine mammals, including beat whales,

just gonna German here and say you know, you know you can't commenting on the current administration within about this, but I would just say these concerns go way beyond any administration when you're thinking about the national security of a country, any country, but specifically the United States, can, when considering military, might verses wildlife conservation. I think we all know where no the status quo that exists within any administration where, where the priorities would lie, tat, make any reelected here. Well: that. I clearly agree with you about the military being always kind of the the priority, and I think when I was referring to the current administration, I was maybe thinking more along the lines of rolling back some environmental controls and care for wildlife that I feel like that philosophy can bleed

even into the military staff and potentially make it even more of a double downing on stuff, like this. Just with that attitude in mind, that's I think what the way I was I was. I was trying to say, but completely agree with you that you know This stuff is never going to be as much of a primary concern or even enough in the public eye, as will see with some court stuff that we're going to discuss in just a minute rights. To quote quote: HD wells from one of his non plagiarized works, ass raise shade they're out of line You say in the island is actually row. Are we not men, meaning does this speech? he's not live within a frame. Of law meant to make in theory everything good for the most amount of living things possible well that came to a head on July, fifteenth in twenty sixteen a little bit of victory, for it maritime members of the of spaceship earth. When the ninth: U S Circuit Court of appeal deals in San Francisco. Fine

shot down the Navy's pretty soon serving interpretation, as we call them she'll Marine protections act that that act is supposed to prohibit any. U S, citizen currency or organization from harm. In knowingly, harming or through negligence, harming Creatures we ve been talking about whales, dolphins, its basically saying, don't don't club seals that did that that kind of stuff stuff that I think most people can get on board with, but they had to go to court for it Yes, there is a wonderful article by the subject by Alessandra put tens from the verge I'm talking about this very court case in they found that the sonar used across more than seventy percent of the oceans in the entire world that we discussed this low. Frequency Sonar was operating under essentially an improper, less licence.

Meds. Whatever I mean, you know, it certainly seems to me, like I'm The formality of the military even needs a permit in to contend with these pesky wildlife organizations that are just trying to save the whales and all that bunch a hippies as far as the generals are Concerned- and I am of course editorializing here but the court, found that a body of the government called a National Marine Fisheries Service, which was The authorizing you, no body for that. These tests wasn't doing enough to mitigate the harm against marine animals against this underwater wild life, there is a law in question here. Call the Marine Mammal Protection ACT. To quote the act itself in the verge article is meant to provide, for the quote least, practicable

worse impact on marine animals and their habitats, and that the federal agencies question here. The enemy s ass well, is not acting by the letter of the law in the way that they were ever seeing these test. They gave this kind of blanket licensing than this. Said, go with God, and and you know, kill, as many Wales is as you is, you deem fit uncle. Sam and service of our great great country really say that, but that's what the outcome was certainly see me. There was very little oversight in any of this, and so in theory, it's good that I got shut down or that they were called to task for many a Terry's around the world have committed to investigating and were. I guess the most Evelyn word would be mitigating their activities to protect marine animals because of course, again

where, where the loggerhead here we're at the who were what one politician awkwardly called the decision points, I think it s eyes own autobiography Do we do we stop this stuff completely? And therefore, indeed aging and enormous trustful, the like of which humanity is never seen in the Dear being like hey, let's all just stop trying to say on each other in kill each other with us submarines and weapons. We carry on board, probably not happened, I'm not a big fan of gambling, but even I wouldn't put money on that. So it takes us to the few This is where we are at. What do we prioritize? A guarantee you eat is utopian. To think that I am using. The crack sense of the word is utopian to think that every nation in the world would agree to even hard limits. Sooner going forward, because if everybody puts this,

limits on and you're the one country that cheats or you know better the rules than you have an immediate and significant advantage? Therefore, it would logically be dumb for you not to do that was it. Well, you know I've if everyone else in the Olympics is using steroids in Europe country that takes a stand against terrorism. Then you lose. Then you look like a sucker, a kind of requires fair play on all sides to level the playing field, and we have oh guarantees. Ever the fats, the case, though we have to be as nasty as we think are enemies are being, I don't know it, it's it's a it's a hard to get a. How do you, how do you act? the good steward of the environment and is a good steward of science. I guess, while also staying on the cutting edge of what everybody else is doing, knowing that you're not always gonna, be the good guy and not to say that that's even an impulse in our country, but it is a question that I have, and I wonder, how do you do that or their country

you're good what, if you're, not even concerned with your enemies in your just concerned with your global trading partners because there is so much shipping that occurs across the oceans every day, with these giant vessels that are terribly loud, legwork thinking, supertankers all kinds of different large ships that are carrying the goods. They, you probably use every day that I know I use all the time they get shipped across the EU let's not forget the word. Shipping refers to ships in the sea. I mean we're not like you know you might get some special delivery freight that comes in a plane, but by and large the way you can carry the largest amount of freight across that long. A distance is with massive massive ships loaded down with shipping.

Gainers that also, there also remain the most cost effective method of shipping, which is which is key here. I'm glad you brought up the commercial aspects Matt, though these are give me a little easier to regulate, but in practice much more difficult, because that's another level of global cooperation what I reiterate going on record. I don't want to miss this point. Whenever its brought up, I think there should be two separate Olympics. I think, there's, be one where everybody signs a waiver they're allowed to do the drugs and taking enhancements that they want that. Make me a bad person. Debate. Only am I right. Would it be massively successful one million per cent? I did the math server, how happy that statement made Spencer, Armando we needed this. He said we need to stop the recording in a all of that, so that you could take that idea and then make it happened.

We could make it happen. Future is now I mean, let's, let's try not to do for each other and try not to destroy the whales and the brilliant marine animals, but this is like I just I wanna see super humans devils advocate here. The guys who really there's about whales. Sorry see joking seabed gave a year, I believe by we I mean you can see how that could you know from the most callous business minded person? What are the whales contributing does? What are the whales contributing to the ecosystem? I'm sure there's many. But again will you sellers? Allow we don't know about Wales, I just see that conversation happening in a back room in the idea. Shutting down the happy you know marine protectionists. How dare they try to stand in the way of our progress in our shipping? In our ability to you now detect enemy vessels,

as efficiently as humanly possible and unfortunately, that's gonna be a thing. It's hard to change that side. If they feared can't figure out a way to sell em or to commodified them in some way. The very fact that their majestic and you know rare and beautiful, this isn't gonna. Do it for a lot of those types of folks, I'm just six We happy that, as of now, the wheels haven't figured out how to create and wheeled weaponry, because they they would have a pretty good case for revenge against all of humanity. Just put that out. There were at least a couple thousand years away from the the man will wars, so that at least makes me feel safer. I had an idea they ate their some things we have to cut for time here, but I have a thought: experiment concept there, one to give.

Get your thoughts on, and I didn't put it in the notes. Cuz. I wanted to surprise you, but it's less crazy than it sounds. So the big problem right seems to be this dichotomy. Do we three risks? FI seen military superiority, ok, ultimately, human lives to save whales. Are these is, is saving one hurting, the other. That's that's kind of the gist of the argument, but there is a third way. There are several third ways, one of those would be finding viable less harmful alternative to sooner so I was a very easy branch and easy fruit on a low hanging branch to crap. I get some like that. Horticulture is correct me black, but the there's something We could do as were the reason I wanted to keep hearing the point that, with a technology do we call solar, already existed in then actual world. What, if we make

these marine animals valuable to the military. As a viable replacement for solar technology? What if there a world where beat whales. Would do all the things that are some that are sooner device would do I mean, their super saver you're, probably that first off that's very close talking about whale slavery unless there, some kind of symbols like relationship we can find, but secondly, Governments have already been experimenting with using smaller cetaceans for any number of task, so what If there's a world where we can and interact with the natural capabilities that already exists: what if we stop building ships and start hiring whales bowling twenty to twenty? Four? Are you familiar with the the arbitrary you are banned? The artisan Moebius French Comic book artists, yes,

see, I does a lot of surrealist kind of like future scape kind of imagery he's got some images with like Future Wales, where they're like harnessed with there, crazy weapons are things like tat and the idea of this whale war is fascinating to me, but definite recommend people check out Moebius if you're into weird art I'm just imagining the horizon: zero dawn version of Wales, where there are these robotic creatures that due account of what you're talking about but also serve some other purpose for humanity, because I know I don't know, I don't I'm pessimistic that we be able to change enough to actually truly save the world's population. Set of cetaceans some summer on the rebound, though a couple is busy. Wales have been documented to have their population increasing. That's thus always kindly depressing oak.

It's like, oh the Tiger population in x region more than doubled, whereas at me Well now there are three like hell: it's an example of just making up. I mean we all want to celebrate. Weird. We in anything other than acknowledging this enormous dilemma is: is there a good answer I don't. I don't really think there is if one country stops using this river, if one trading companies stops using this, the other trading companies you're, just gonna, take take advantage the power vacuum. Why didn't mean this to end on down. No, I mean no you're right about Moebius. Those are great comics, love NEA. Maybe maybe less future whales. Then I remembered, but he definitely has himself warehouse in them, but that is a motif you see- lot, though, like Wales flying through the sky and like with like saddles, are

my dad in like lasers, and then there was that thing in Futurama to I believe there was a space whale and one of those movies that they put out near the end of the right of that but Wales or no whales check our moebius. The airtight garage is a really cool collection, and he also he didn't he he did He collaborated with our hundred generosity on a version of doing that. Never saw the light of day those actually documentary about that call. Giotto, ascii, Dune and Moebius didn't thus the conceptual arch behind that kills a sea of gases, tabletop books or got one of them I would recommend, I think, he's I can't remember fees, the guy, who also did this sort of space whale thing he is. He did design, some of the ideas behind a bunch of films. People is seen, including space german. Solomon right, so those are as bona fides

So you are looking for folks of you. If you doubted us here, space Germany's is in fact a stone, cold piece of American Cinema, our garbage what you want sure mouth, sir, and that sure we want to hear from you. What do you think will what the solution to this intertwined, gordian knot, concerns, problems and crises no, you can find some facebook. You can find us on twitter. You can find us on Instagram. I you find us as individuals not just to show and bimbo lineage S w on Twitter and Benbow. On Instagram few issues, find me on Instagram exclusively, where I am at How now no brown- you can find me, mad friends, underscore I heard in you can ask me:

actually hey. Why didn't you talk about air gonna raise in this episode, and I will reply back to your call. We. We ran out of time, because there is a lot of talk about in this way. And so many questions all mind your own business. Me, Google, that for you I I mean to get aggressive. Okay, I feel better. Now we also have a phone number? If, if you know opprobrium and them over over Aragon Array and over the current research we didn't get to just doesn't quite translate to the written word. You can call us directly where we are one eight, three, three std I'll, be Whitey K thanks for everyone who sang along, as we said that you ve got three minutes Go straight to voicemail. Tell us your story, tell you, fellow listeners let us know, if you don't want your name or your story on the air, we will respect your wishes, be

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