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I heard radio in Tribeca studios present fierce upon cast about the incredible women who never made it nor history books and the modern women carrying on their legacies. Today. I'm your host GPS each week will be introducing you to women like Chinese out she outclasses every other known pirate by every measure and our modern counterpart Tracy Edwards. I wanted to enough against romanian boats mental anybody can do that. I sweat should create my own project fierce debut on May sixth, listen and subscribe to fear. Sonny I hurt radio up or wherever you listen about costs Thank you at those two psychic powers and government conspiracies history is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn this stuff. They don't want you to alone. Come back to the show. My name is mats, my name is no. They come

then, or you, and that makes this stuff. They don't want you to know so guys. How are you feeling Good, pretty good feeling good little by little, no worried, trepidations, yeah feeling something just weighing on me, because the research that we ve been doing for this episode, we're about to record it gets into the deep dark levels. Of your soul, almost yeah, you know whenever we go into an examination of history. What we find is that, although histories often portrayed as a concrete in arguable thing, it's much, like a conversation and at times an argument between narrative yeah dimension, the other two saying about history is written by the victors or whatever so loud revisionism going on depending on you know the you're looking at you.

Story of the exploration of where we come from, you know of the men trees that surround the origins of humanity, and it always brings and one of my favorite, William Faulkner, quotes. He said that the past is an over, it isn't even passed, and I think we forget how in history in the world we live in, is a power obsessed. A poem says this just fancy word the thing that a lot of monasteries used to do in paper was very expensive and rare or the reason scrolls a day, would vellum. I guess, instead of buying more paper, to write something they would do, is they will erase what was written earlier, and they would right over here fast forward, several centuries historians and researchers found out that it was possible to read the earlier copies this

the parts of history that literally been overwritten through the tactile clues. Just the impressions that the earlier pins or quills made on the physical paper and a lot of times when we look at history or exploring different versions of history. Arguments were using in a very strange were using clues that are like the indentations of the will your stories on physical paper were finding references that don't make sense, were connecting dots that have not been connected, and this is regardless of how you feel about a specific case. This is one of the most important parts of historical

dollar ship absolutely. So today we are here we're not just talking about history for funds, these renown honour. Today we are diving into one of the. I would say that I was one of the most prominent when most prominent conflicts in historical near and we are not doing it alone we have with us today a very important person that, within the narrative. The we'll be exploring, and I think the best thing possibly to do is just to introduce her. Then then, let her tell us about herself yet so, let's do it so welcome to the show tat patient. Thank you. I welcome. Behind tell us a little bit about yourself Tansy. Why are you here today? So I m here today to talk a little bit about what my father did

I'm what he dedicated a lot of his life to, and that was the exploration of history and looking for new ways to view history, new ways to think about history, love than just leaving the perceived views of the methods used to night, eighty to attend to your father, Michael Beijing's route. A world changing book called wholly blood holy GRAIL and really when you it reached out to us. This was eyed, and this was thrilling for us, because this is a book that, even if p, having read it or haven't heard of it, people are probably we are familiar with the idea here. We checked out a copy of the book and is if we're gonna, let the badger out of the bag here already

we ve got more than we were. We get many badgers rates. This book focuses on. The exploration of what the Holy GRAIL, in biblical, more actually wise in adults into the early days of the christian church, it into nothing less than the secret history of Christ, Yes, and specifically, whether or not Jesus actually died when he no historically died release. What the in the texts say, and then whether or not he actually had a bloodline that continued on in France. I believe, with the mayor of indian line, fascinating stuff And tell you There was a little bit more more about it. Yeah I mean two stars: maybe you have to think about it? What would you believe

Do you think that a jewish man would have married her children and attempted to gain through. When he had been born to virgin, walked on water and waste. From the dead, so I think we need to think about history. You have to think about these things. The book begins, basically with I'm a priest could son yeah who, in eighteen, eighty five check residence in the church at Random Chateau and he discovered something which about the great fortune and my father, and to his companions, sought to find out what the source of his treasure was. Its lead on a journey through history and the question that arises well you know. What is your belief that stimulate this whole is how John eagerly he want today the man behind Jesus and in doing that, he TAT S, how we have translated some, the other texts, and you have something called sangreal

which people translators the holy GRAIL? But if you move the G become sang re out, which is wholly blood, and that is something that my father did and explored three that it actually Jesus could have had a child and about child existed and his blood Linux throughout history here, yeah, there's a is a quotation in the book that that follows this. Where, one: the one thing that the authors do, as, as you mentioned, Tansy Michael Route, this, along with his colleagues Henry Lincoln and Richard Lee. They say I'm just as you said that growl. Sangreal could translate to royal or wholly blood, and the authors say in India spoke. They soup in itself such word play might be pretty provocative, but hardly can MRS taken, in conjunction with the emphasis on genealogy lineage. However, there's not much room for doubt and they go on to explore. Some

the blood related lore Jeanne, the idea of the grail, the cup that caught Jesus, is blind. Ripen coming becoming the holy GRAIL, and one of the arguments here is that instead, this is, as, as you said, tansy a bloodline, and I really appreciate the point you're making about D, about the actual belief system, which is more likely in me. I like for a man to a married and little sought some sort of influence and power, or for some of these more mystical. The provisions yet again is about faith, it's about what which one you see as being the most tied to your belief system. I suppose, but it's interesting to explore both sides for sure, So what? When you talk about him, the idea of him, you know ascending the throne or like having some sort of bloodline. What? What does that look like? What would that be

leave functionally. What purpose would that serve so very few thought that visa waiver- I'm sort of Solomon in David line Why do you title to the taking of cheese and that trade, and so when he was thought him when he lived on the plan was to say that not lying back onto the throne, so they had an entitlement to that transactions. Bloodline, had an entitlement to the train and can was to protect that bloodline. And then you have these through secret societies that come up throughout history that were better Lee request with the M the protection of this line in the main one discussed enemies. One of the main was discussing the book is a group known as priory of Asylum, which is There are questions as to whether or not this group actually existed in the way that

outlined in the book. He chuckled a bad about some of the kind of questions, putting some of this history and whether we're looking at things that have been leaned from documents that were not entirely accurate or if this was more of a twentieth century creation, nor that of that kind of came up after the book was published in Father was working with information. That was, you know that seem to me accurate over time, but where do you kind of land on? We know what what is it isn't, maybe entirely accurate in the book. The thing is that, at the time when it ain t My father is relying on the information that is available to him then, but at the same time he doesn't just make an assumption based on one piece of evidence, woman, one document he takes a multitude of documents and together create systems hey, I'm until the fire, silent and the order of science. They came about whether or not they existed in the waiter,

he described at the time. There was actually the amount of sign back in Jerusalem and there was a lot of links and coincidences debts and make it seem closer. But there was some kind of grave and whether or not enabled US secrets has been more evidence is changed or talking changed. He didn't just rely on one aspect and at the same time, in what he came up with was conjecture them. In any event have any solid approval will be anything that far back so you have to just go on. You know bits of information that you have tied together and see whether what you come up with makes sense and is a viable harry, I'm which he he still believed a maintained at the end that it was one of them was, if you do have the belief that Jesus didn't down across and that came through relate to books that he he came back Speaking of there are so many novels that your father wrote

in about such diverse topics, we just through some of them about, I mean going back. Somewhere thing: the messianic legacy: the Temple and the large when we get into Freemasonry, which is something will jump in you here. In a moment, the Jesus papers, dead, sea, scrolls deception, the elixir and the stone, which is specifically about alchemy and magic, seems extremely enter, but you know I have not read it for this interview, but that, Definitely on my list now, there's all races, towards Armageddon is another one that I really want to talk about. It who? Is it too much to jump gears here? No, I was just gonna, maybe say what what about all of these topics in these kind of like mystical pursuits fastening father so much I mean it seems like it wasn't

Obviously it is a diverse set of topics, but they all do kind of tying into this quest for the unknown and, like you, some of the same things that drive us here on the show, I mean growing up with them. What what were you perceptions of whether drove him to this? These kind of, like quests, I guess, wearing. What drive him to these quests was the pursuit tree he was used to maintain this waiting to ask questions noisy like this. I need fair. No one in your pursuit of t answer. I grew up being very open to a variety of different ideas. Are not willing to you just take something at face value. He was also very interested in experience. And so he gave me a copy of the Hamas occur when it and if he is going- and he just he was very interested in in the hold you what what actually made up existence and what was the truth of reality and what was the truth of they have no reality. The things that we can't see men growing up with action

taken from the young age was very interesting to me, his has changed my life. He felt this need them, important thing was to be had not taken. May I guess if not to just be led by what people tell you or what's written in sketches, contractually experience. We yourself- and I regret that true he's busy in all of this- is different books and they all have ass. If the link to the mystery than mystical and of one thing I. I really appreciate, commissioner, the emphasis on your father's pursuit and his emphasis on experience all learning, because he did travel widely and women thinking about journeys. This makes me think you know when I originally started reading the book. I thought this is the culmination of years of research and work, but

in a very real way. It was just the beginning of a journey for him, because this side, this book, became internationally known and became the subject of a lot of debate and controversy. So I guess my my next question would be something that I've been very curious about after the publication of Holy blood Holy GRAIL, What was your? What was your father's journey in the public sphere like because he he spoke about the book you made appearances, he defended things right and I hoping that you could tell us in the audience a little bit more about the journey. He took in the end the path the publication spoke set of upon. So I guess the application is dark ways.

His faceted real presence in the limelight and being in that position, you got a lot of, I have inquiries and criticism, and I think he had to Roma searching the way that he he presented himself, but he was always a very private man. He hides a very difficult childhood and say he wasn't of us to the sort of consultancy and the negative effects that ensued coming out with us information when it did. I think you know they were all very taken aback by how's successful unpopular the book was and became that wasn't his initial idea. They just you know, is a five year project this they released and they had no idea. That would be such a success when I think about Davis its offence case too, as a as an author, an historian and research in that letter. Into lungs a lot of other books and investigating angrily was in my head, he's very much real life. The Harrison report

character, Deanna Jones, you gotta know he in order to do a lot of the recession. He's too, take us all around the world because Israel in Scotland and the grave and chechens and it changed the way that he was in his life. He was a photographer before then Say to to be in that role is a rising tax is investigating in the public eye. He changed the way that him he acted in. He was and made him more committed to pursuing the chase. The ideas behind things in the research behind us and that he was a very private man. He did he kept himself very setbacks. He Let's hear your father was a war photographer in louse. I believe and during the Vietnam WAR, and I wonder how much that experience led him even further in

this realm of wanting to question the truth and urgent question what is presented as tricks say during his time allowed. He went to be a war took them, but when he arrived at the time and that he was paid to me have unfortunately no not said he took to fetch coughing am unease any cause and three bars he soulless and horrific sites. And he was ass, she approached by the CIA and date what what they were doing a time when they were taking in buying a lot of the basic law of all four took visited. They couldn't be shown to the general public. He refused to sell them, so he still has a lot of these special us and he also source and things that were absolutely stricken off from history. That was was that would never happen and he saw those fast home. So I think that that realisation that watch the public is FEZ is not necessarily what

she happening, and I think that led him into his investigations- are fairly buttonhole growl and all the others that came up. Service processing. There are no less it as it is presented as a kind of father through your heading. When you are we using, they tried to buy the photos, often because even now you hear accounts like on public radio of war photographers, who you know like there, to turn their cameras off at certain times. You know it only photographs, certain things, so you really do get this skewed perspective of something terrific as a war and when its managed by the people in charge, you really are a very easy way to be led astray and of thinking what people want you to think, rather than what is actually true, and so I could totally safe experience would lead him to really wanna take deep dives into They don't want you to know, and that's that's that's very good point, because, although

it was suppressed from the public eye at the time later, evidence merge that shows the? U S conducted in ITALY's just the? U S Without even can european powers conducted extensive, illegal opera Genes are black, opt in law. Where numerous mines still remain active, landmines and Cambodia, and Myanmar Burma as this is not these are not theories, and if you like it very important to establish that for the listening audience is approved facts the most made up thing about at least the? U S. Involvement in Vietnam was the Gulf of Tonkin incidents, he's so cool and interesting that you can of course, further in the light of this, like real life, Indiana Jones Character, because some of them? get you next is his sort of embroiled and I guess, with Dan Brown and the Divine she code books in that character, is sort of in a similar light,

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lingering society and for some reason, Tom Hanks is involved. Will you I mean he's he's really in guy easy good looking man, I think I think is is mostly his affectation. Is very generous with its personnel, I would I would if I would have enjoyed the Divan Code Desert film. I would have enjoyed more if it had been Tom. Hanks is David S, pumpkins point, if only if only but we are. We bring this up, because this was one of the biggest controversies, cracked Dan Brown publish this book now, eight thousand three. I want to say that might not be correct wording that is two decades later. Yes we blood holy GRAIL is already out internet, fully known again is the star the subject no small amount of controversy right, and it has many proponents as many opponents who damn brown. Out with the Divinity Code and says

so people around the world go hey. You base that off of maybe not by plagiarized, but you based it off of holy blind, and holy GRAIL, to which Damn Brown replied. No, not just that in Brown, the publisher, and it became a thing, and so our first question for this. After that long introduction, with this to set the scene or first question regarding this tansy is, could you give us an account of how this transpired in and what actually happened with the arguments that damn Brown in his publishers were making yet say. Essentially down brown emerged himself as a bit of us. A pseudo story in and a lot of people felt this, and he was the one who generally research for,

his bag, essentially what he was saying that he'd never marry. You never read and heard about the holy GRAIL or, if he had, you, don't need to dabbled with it. What transpired in cars was this? He had actually has the book open at the time of rising the central part of him. Look, lady is an underground of Lee and agent, so that character was based on the works. I guess had been heavy growl and eating takes the copy of the book of the show. What my dad, how was this this wasn enough of an acknowledgment of his life, but he spent five years. New with others doing, and that John Brown has taken This information and recast it stage two ass, his own and didn't essentially say that much that had come from you got inside the GRAIL, Gale Reebok, who is an had around the House so is there and she it was that shit. He was actually serving the publishers, not done found himself, and then it was a his public.

And love essentially did everything they could to bankrupt. My father, drowsy by hiring he sees and essentially trying to make him stop pursuing the case. What it also came through was the fact that actually down Brown didn't do any of his own research. It all came from life, his life, his wife, did all the research for every one of his books. He denied should do any of them. The judge commented that he was basically a passive observer in terms of the collection of that historical material. He just created the story around it and, unfortunately, because of a technical error, the odd lawyers, maize and yawning

That's ends up being a substantive issue and in why we lost that's all you know the judging, especially in the court of appeal, held up a book and set the title honey, but in the holy GRAIL is quite clear that that down bound his copies that that aspect of s, arms in a true that, as long as we had the judge who created his own Smithy case in the judgments, and he has since been considered a very poorly to dodge. I'm done. Since his own by us too, to pursue his aims. Your father end, Mr Lee, then appealed the judgment right yes, because of the fact that, actually that the original judge us the speeches made in his judgment was very confused and he made a lot of sense then sets suggested that my father was hiding money and a lot of them

the reasoning behind his hands judgment was not actually based on on the evidence in the case, and we also felt that job Brown lied from the beginning of the case until the answer here continue. He said I don't know, I don't remember, and he didn't remember anything he done to use for all his work in all of his research was destroyed in a flood surveyed. His computers were destroyed in the flood, but my father, who wrote the book you twenty as before, could account pretty much everything that can bout with writing a book, so we felt that the judge wrongly allowed that you knew the fact that downtown had sworn under. I added I lied Andrew and felt that was a big issue. The fact that life I'm wouldn't appear is a big issue and the fact that we felt that it was quite clear that Damn Brown had used among information about the Holy GRAIL and haven't correctly

attributed to my father and then that's why we took it, because if you then in the end, this really did cost your father family A lot of money and when I'm literary emotional, dress. Anyhow, they can't even imagine drawing something wiped out in August Father was one to stick by his guns and I'm sure he felt very passionate about defending his work. Obviously it wasn't a surly about making it of money, as it was kind of defending his name and my characterizing. That correctly, you have to try- and he took the case before the success of the UK say he didn't realize the success that it would be it was. It was actually just to be awarded for happiness. Mary, a connection to the heavy burden, headache, rail and the fact that he had spent five years and with others, Whiting that book? That was why he pursued the case sue. Regardless of whether

Somebody believes this this account or this exploration, regardless of whether somebody disagrees with the ideas presented right by Michael Badge. There is in arguable connection between the Divinity Code and this book we have a quote I'll get the red quickly here. This is this is, in my opinion, the heart of the hypothesis summed up again, perhaps I believe that elusive woman in the gospels was in fact Jesus his wife. Perhaps their union produced offspring after the crucifixion. Perhaps the Magdalen, with the least Child was smuggled de Gaulle were established, jewish communities it already existed and where, in consequence she might have found refuge. Perhaps there was, in short, hereditary bloodline, descended directly from Jesus. This is like this.

There's no way to say that these are not connected. It just seems very, it seems implausible that author, like damn, Brown could have in a vacuum Britain. That kind of thing the most compelling things that came out of the ruling was the the way the judge viewed the work, wholly blood holy GRAIL and one of the reasons that it was said to not be damned Browns

was not please rising. Your father's was because your father's work was this historical work rather than fiction, yet so what they said eventually, when is this, you can't copyright historical facts and even those facts that have a shroud on creativity cannot be. Copyright is so they felt that what my father had done was he taken facts. It shrouded in this creativity, but then that's shroud could not be copyright as it actually reduce copyright in Europe to basically things like imagery or completely. Unrelated photos, ideas that were very personal it it made it so that you could quite easily copy someone else's work if it was a sort of a general, a general creation based on facts, It should certainly back a little bit about the controversial nature of this work. Whether

we obviously making it calling it nonfiction could potentially make it gently more controversial than having it be fiction, but there are there were issues I think the roman Catholic church banning them in certain circles, and you now calling for it to be read, protract in some way. Be I as a work of his store history, because basically, it is, it says, goes again, their entire doctrine. We know that Jesus Christ had a son and married and is a totally different interpretation of the way they would have us see that figure I'm wondering that, specifically, how did that manifests itself? This religious can a solitary coming at you your family, when this book was published, so my father, if you'd want to death threats going out and he thought he was hugely affected by the strength of this progression of the charge really big.

Didn't coordinated, they couldn't land these two ideas. They couldn't see Christ being this in a real historical figures that could have had a wife and child and in it chose to purely adopt what the debate they ve taken from that dogma, the doctrine- and so you know, I think, in eighty three thirty five- that Jesus was proclaimed as this godlike figure in in Constantinople ass. She would go back in history me, you don't really have a phone grass with history. So what is known fiction and fiction knew whether whether what he is saying is is true or not, but it's just about understanding. Why he's crazy sense and where its come from- and I think what the touch fail to see was that there could be a blend here, that you could still see this his character, Jesus zones or his natural teachings and the importance of that, but still see him as a man, whereas in and not a lot of these people just could not

We cannot accept, says, and they felt that his work when the fictional not incite in so much interest, and they just retaliated against that's to such a degree that I don't think that we found was quite exciting it at the time, because, again for him, it was doing it was conjecture. It was different Harry and does not many theories that can create that much star, though we felt that they were taking. Maybe they were taking a bit of truth from it and that's why they re really instead of, as also is the first example of this idea of Jesus having married Mary Magdalena, having had a relationship with her there's more inscription found the last temptation of Christ, which was based on a novel from the nineteen fifty by a greek author that sets out this

scenario more in kind of like a storytelling fashion, rather than trying to claim that is based on any kind of historical documents. Did your father ever consider that work at all when he was working on this? Are you now was I'm sure he was aware of it, but that play in any way into his interest into seeking this and wondering some quite possibly he him he did not. Such around and would have known about different texts that were available hate he had. He never saw. He never said that his very specifically to him to his colleagues was this. Jesus had why it was. It was the bloodline, That came from then, and he does does use very careful language in parts of the book album. We read

the submission of that high populaces. He says perhaps there's indication at at that point when, when they have offices is phrase he is not telling. People to believe, is putting these thoughts today, and then continuing and exploration and all I love that you bring up this their older beliefs of evolving, similar things because This goes back as far as the thirteenth century, o win people were claiming that part of the Catherine belief was that there was an earthly Jesus Christ who also had a relationship with Mary Magdalen, but when we move type, but that we also have to remember you, this can seem controversial today in twenty seventeen, but it wasn't that long ago, when people world

literally being murdered for saying anything slightly different from the official doctrine of the church, I mean in the span of human history, that's like up that was me snappy, my it? Gotta people can't see, as lip enabled things like that, still happening today not necessarily with it, with the catholic Church or in a christian organisations, but they are occurring today. That's true and we ve talked a little bit about the way the church reacted. But we know that many people in academia also reacted adversely to this. There were historians, said that they had serious problems with the book or they felt that it was They felt that it was not doing due diligence to other things that they considered historical facts. Now I do want to say at that

up here. That Nat no and I are not historians unless she has had a nearby of wild weekend, I mean, what's so great courses ever known fairly, go we do what we do want to ask how

your father react to the academic controversy surrounding this Bulgaria or the criticisms that you receive, so not just the ideological beast, death threats, perhaps but the these secular conversations, seven, the academic community and they were essentially his back- was considered. It wasn't nonfiction affection and the way they had right madness is very different to how and other things have been met in nineteen. Eighty to you, I you have to do, is look at that structure in order for it to be a non fiction by set structure in order to be efficient, but what they wanted to do if they want to create. This is story. That's brought in fact, and their interpretation and a lot of academics found that I'm not liking

and of Historians Wi Fi critical of his work weapons evening can. But the thing is this: you know my father was an incredible, be such he wasn't very intelligent, he's very intellectual ones. Nice he is one of the most intellectual than I have ever met unresisted go and I haven't found another researcher who has gone to the length, but he went to in order to compile the necessary black for all his books. He would go down caves, he would he spoke french and resources and documents. He investigated things to any degree and it's easy for a person to criticise what

it would be the one to write. It should be the one to be such as it takes a lot of time in a lot of them. Do not commitment and will all he was doing, was presenting facts and an interpretation of potential interpretation of what they were. He never try to make anyone else believe He found he set it up to everyone else to draw their own conclusions, and that was his response as well. To these these other authorities. You were trying to contest the lucky days and he just he just I want to jump into something that we kind of mentioned early on in this episode. You father, was a member of a group that has experienced its own controversies, and this is the Freemasons the order of Freemasonry he was at least according to masonry today, dot com, He is a member of large economy number. Seventy six in Winchester, He said

grand officer in the United Grand Lodge of England. That sounds os. I dont know what it means when it sounds awesome and he also as an editor of the Masonic magazine Freemasonry today and if you there's a website that exists for the four Freemasonry today and you can see writing. By your father and it's very, very fascinating stuff lots of esoteric. I mean, I guess it's just the nature of, yes and lots of very high level thinking about consciousness, and religion and the afterlife and I just wonder how much this world that your father existed in influence all the other things and then perhaps even knew what he was very near. The terek- and I think, that's that's formulated- His own journey in Freemasonry has a lot of Freemasons who disregards and not have them

a lot of the meaning behind behind a ritual is while- and I think that his, what he wants to do is to see you. Yes, it Harry aspects, He anyone can join an Freemasonry. Doesn't you don't have to found by religion, and so he found it was, amazing melting pot of different people with diverse ideas, the single lease in this. I guess this is about his other brown more. These wonders that combine that connects all of us and that something there he bought three from his work and also someone who he was a young as a young man in the experiences in halves, and he brought that enters into recently meetings own way and tailored his role as editor to incorporate? has any my own life. He was meditating and beyond he never ever told us TAT, is you anyway can any type is virtually? He would always said that there were many paused with each other

Second, we had our choice to pursue, which everyone West, I actually started in Asia. I then became agnostic. I had my own experiences That's when I spoke to my father about where I could gave him there and he introduced me to lots of different religions, I tried seek, is wiccan paganism until I realized that actually I was my own guys and my own path. Still dogmas. I didn't have to be part of any religion, and so in that way I did. I did find that connection to the, and see you ends in a he helped me in that process, but he was no. He was in no way an influence or back. Let me guide myself. These are you familiar with Pierre Plan. Tarred he was a figure in french politics who is kind of like considered a hoax stir hype and no sort of lake believed in certain mystical.

Leaves is well and similar way, you father, but is he's the one who kind of claimed that he was responsible for sort of tramping ups the primary of siren stuff. You know, can directly criticize I wholly blood holy grail when it came out saying that it was at work? fiction, and he kind of discounted the sum of the text that it was based on a kind of said that he said he made this, nor your story are basically, but he also is kind of been debunked in many ways is well, and it's just interesting, you know, is someone who kind of pride themselves on always, you know getting the last lap This strikes me as that Tibet. I was wondering if you are familiar with them situation in his role in any of this. These also like it if other being a mason and kind of having this, mind in this fascination with the idea of mysticism and sally,

religion, but just more the idea of sweats beyond the veil. You know in more of a universal kind of sense, like with the meditation and one of them. Chism's, I think that's been levied against him about this book- is that he may be let some of that stand in the way of seeing the fact cylinders wondering how you hire you might respond to that. I was one thing that is Pierpont. Our gentlemen said is that you know he might have allowed himself to be taken for because he wanted to believe We run into this. All the time on our ship figure planter will develop. The heavy burden, headed girl, and I think that the work that he did there. I think this there was links between with between that and what my Father days when my father also had a huge amount of other sources, and I think that the overarching

An idea that he came up with this highly want highty grail this this. How did you got that that ran through time? I don't think how the connection to the mystical and in that sense, and so I don't think that actually it did effects his work in that way all counted his judgment. I think he was being quite clearly and I don't think it even matters. That's in a continent was his creditors or anyway. I still think that his stand up to scrutiny and I think again, you're dealing with historical information. You just cannot be a hundred percent shows. You just have to find what seems right to you again. You know my father was never trying to tell people what to believe. That was not his purpose. He was just presenting facts presenting his interpretation and providing a fairy whether you agree with them or not it's so your father was really focusing on that.

Divine world, though he called it many things, at least in interviews that I've heard him speaking about it. It's the whenever plain exists just beyond this physical one where every human being goes to upon death and from from Every person comes before they are born right. This, in throughout all these different religions. You have placed Heaven or Elysium Hades the Deutz theirs. Pick a religion theirs in other world and so I am hearing that, perhaps through meditation, you personally get to experience that, at least in some part Is that something that anyone listening Kin can attempt? Absolutely I'm imitation teacher, and I always I try to not bring to much of the thieves.

Rachel ideas into my meditation causes, but they come in. Naturally, I think that's the ash. The path is a meditating being still, you find deeply connection to each other and yourself, and in that case, is still needs. You can start to feel and observe and different sense of reality, and whether you wish to pursue that. I'm not asking that attention is being credible skill in tapping into that one. Nelson, the connection between us all too. We have several near the threads going on right now. This interview, and we have so much suffering explore and will be right back after word from our sponsor have. You ever wondered: how did the smartest marketers cut through the noise I'm

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did identity, restoration, specialist will work with you to fix it. Here's the deal, no one can prevent all identity theft or monitor all transactions at all businesses, but, having like means one less thing: distress about during TAT season, join now and save up to twenty five percent off your first year. Just gotta lifelike tat comes last conspiracy. That's lifelike dot com, slash conspiracy for twenty five. Set off. I'd like to explore something that we would mentioned earlier massive leave? You mentions that MR of agent was prolific author S, so we ve explored wholly blood holy grail and the arguments with it,

I but as Matt mentioned earlier in the show, Michael Bayesian too, did not write just one book. He was quite a prolific author. I he wrote what book that? duly interests me and Polly Inches long time, listeners as well secret Germany, giving which examines the occult practices of the Nazi Party the World WAR two era. He also wrote a book that Matt, you we are very interested in. Oh, yes, Nazis are always a hot topic on show and all of those the beliefs and move the wind behind them, especially magic man. You have chosen magic. The Nazis athlete some of the most interesting things you can talk about, art, so another book. I really was fascinated by their father. It was called racing towards Armageddon and that's not the full title, but that's the gist of what it was getting into and in this house

bores, religious fundamentalism and ass, rats not relevant at all to do with right in especially the intertwining narratives of the end times of all the various major religions like how how they believe the end of the world will come out and everyone ascending, you know, either in to their version of heaven or everyone converting to their religion, and I was listening to an interview with and men it sound, did to me like he believe we're getting very close to the end times. Are you Seeing that at all yeah, we'll find his thing is this? Actually, when human Israel is our photographer. His check right, isn't these very big warehouses and when he asked the photographer, what was in them, he said, are huge amount of arms and by Africans, I'm innocent, face now only a day which, sadly believe on it

What will happen and I think his work through that book was talking about how he's fundamentalists to pursue their own aims and bring us was the end of the world and with the amount of tragedies that have occurred recently way fundamentalists pushing agape system constantly. I feel that there is a worry that the end is suddenly closer than you ones and what he felt with this he said is it: is it time pats limitations of the book to throw away the book and seeks Fredericks variants wroth and settling from ITALY, and I think that's where he he wanted cigar? He he felt this in democracy and then he felt that faith in people and hurry wise humans. He found it,

needed to be stronger than peace, peace, archaic, sort of believes that guide people towards them do dear. That's that's exactly what we were talking about earlier, getting back to things like the cabal, our the classical mysticism, mercifully ism, where it's all about that personal connection. With the other side, rather than someone standing on a pulpit telling you how it is that that speaks to me ITALY's personally Tansy. We want to thank you so much for taking his time You speak with us today and to speak with our listeners as well One thing that we like to, do the shoe on when ever we examine historical allegations or Any anything related to the past is weak, to ask about the future. So where do you

see, the that the future of research into these sorts of theories going over the over the next few years is this? Is this is done? he'll or is there more to be discovered? So there is a lot of work that he gets in the course of history and knew a lot of very influential people and people who were in positions of power and he found out and loss of information that is stone, kept secret and hidden from the public that something that I think eventually well come out anyway, You see how it will be some nonfiction thriller in some crazy way the Europe that you're gonna write, oh yeah, very competent. It's all right. We can't thank you enough for joining us today. I was wonderful to speak with you and your father, and all these just fascinating

to call things and it sounds like there's still more out there to be discovered. So this concludes today's episode. Not our shoe Nat Nolan. I will be returning next week with more of the strangest most bizarre stuff. They don't want you to know. But in the meantime, if your question is how can I you guys before the next episode. Check it out on the internet. We always means new finally on twitter, we're conspiracy does there and on Facebook seem deal it in How do people find you and ask you questions if they're interested, so I ran my father's website switches, microbe ancient outcome, so you can contact me through that websites. Yeah, happily answer any questions that you might have

thing else. You're getting into the new one. Is old people vote? Yes, I met she at the moment in the process in writing a book about if each of the environment, I did a masters in such environmental and it something that's really interesting to me, because I talk about an old conspiracies in that's in that well awesome, scary to environmental conspiracies? I feel like that. Gonna. Make me really sad, Tansy hurried! Well that help. Gird yourself to read America's we're going to have to do it at the summit on that. Ok, I'm down and if there are social media stuff, is your bag. You can totally just send us an email with questions concerns comments, ideas, episodes death threats maybe not don't do that sentences conspiracy and has therefore tobacco

Geico has the insurance industry leading up that lets. You manage your policy anytime anywhere, which means that guy is always. Therefore you, if only everyone was always. Therefore you like animal control when you're cornered in your garage by an angry possum Megan you they said you would be here about an hour ago and am I think, the possible starting to get angry? Listen. I thought if I felt it will go away, but now it is ripping holes in the dry while in making some sort it S. Just call me back Geico always therefore, you with savings and the industry leading mobile, app

look all I see look over, there is less culture and EAST ass did die last Algeria's Carling, MRS not Rogers, and this is Balin Yang and you might know us from shared credits, including us in our aims, shrill, nor from glance and broad city, so yeah. What those credits you can tell these people must know what they are talking about and here's the thing we do. If you listen to this pop culture, part cast and we say an opinion about culture, it is henceforth law every episode we get into the formative culture that made our guest say, culture was for them. Well, if that sounds interesting, do you and you want to keep it in the eye? Horatio family? Listen to last luxurious, doesn't he I Heredia lap apple pie casts or wherever you get her pod costs