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Ben we are joined, as always with our super producer, old mission control, deck and, most importantly, you or do you are here, and that makes this stuff. They don't want you to know it's your favorite, her, Some your favorite point in quarantine back again today. We are exploring a very strange case. Let's start with you, here of missionary work. You ve heard the phrase before right. Is sometimes associated with these acts that encapsulate the utmost of altruism and then sometimes there are cases that appear to be self serving and some case, like the tragic case of John Chow in North Sentinel Island seem to be in here leave misinformed with terrible horrific consequences by in the world of missionary work. You may have also heard the story of one Renee bought who founded the org

nations serving his children, often abbreviated as s each see in Uganda. In two thousand and nine you may be somewhat familiar with this last story, the headline level? But if you are like most of us, you have not heard the full extent of what happened here, and that is why today we are exploring the strange, tragic tale of Renee Box since in the organization in Uganda, as well as some of the larger themes, this story touches upon and luckily we not doing it alone are we know today we are joined by regime gala, prolific, freelance journalist and fatigue firm, he's been published in multiple, lets. You probably seen his work in the guardian, vice Reuters and much much more. He along with his team, Holly Merger, candy and amalgam Burnley regime. A year investigating the story he entered

over a hundred people asking crucial, profound questions about the problems that arise when someone becomes what could be called a white Savior so receive firstly first welcome to the show, and can you please briefly describe the story. That's going on here of S age, see, ya, think, much for having me on, So I got you Uganda last January and future after I got there. I heard about this case of an american woman who had pretended to be a doctor. Is now being accused of killing hundreds of children. And a few days later, a innocuous who called no eight saviours helped file a court case against her in Uganda's high court.

And so I went along with them and I met a few. The people were had signed, affidavits against Renee, and they kind of set me off on this journey that took us the next year to really get to the bottom of this whole story and figure out what is really going on with all these allegations. So I think some of the initial questions here are gonna, be concerning your process which may be a little bit of a dry way to start so in this, a story in the missionary, which one thing that you all have done- that's pretty captivating to me is that you're right, it's a collaborative work of journalism. I still I can only imagine- must it must be a huge undertaking out what what led you and Colleagues, how we and now come to take this approach to narrative to storytelling and investigation oh pretty quickly, when we got into the story, we realized it was gonna. A lot of two interpretation. I mean this

such a polarizing case. I mean we have one group on one hand that literally called itself no wait saviours and then we have the accused Renee on the other and both were telling widely different stories. And when we got into it the leg, documentation, the evidence was kind sparse, and so what we had to do mostly, was always competing, narratives internist sticking together, and it just made the most sense instead of in person kind of trying to make sense of all these things. Why don't we kind bring all those perspectives to show and the three of us all come with our own personal experiences and our own take on just how this case unfolded and who is to blame and what what really happened? What really went wrong and instead of taking one of those, we can live tussle with each other. Through a show and try to depose pinions other it's interesting. It's almost. Rush on type story or those is unreliable, narrator and you kind of have to as the list

make up your own mind as to what really happened. For example, even though this woman and in question Miss Bach, She wrote a lot of these blogs where she wrote about herself. In the first person ass though she were the one you now doing, the blood transfusions on these on malnourished children, and now you know putting an ivy ease and obviously a part of the story. In the end. The hubbub here is that she has done, experience. But she wrote about it from this person and later walk. That back- and I may be- was this being a little self aggrandizing and chose to write in that form, but it really was others. They were always nurses around that, were you know, counselling me and tell me what to do, but even that part I can hardly who do you believe and its. It is fascinating that level. Psychology in I was aware of white Savior. As a movie. True, more than anything we're it's like the idea of like dances with war, Those are the white guy comes in and saves all they know the native Americans from themselves or whatever. That is where I have heard about

so the idea of it s like a genuine psychological complex. I guess, is very fascinating, meaning a little bit about that and in how you kind of started digging deeper into this idea of the vis, almost being a pathological me now issue with with certain well well, I would just say on that, and we actually didn't want to go down the pathological route for a very specific reason, because the wasn't hard evidence. We don't want to start like armchair, diagnosing people we didn't want to kind of chocolate to a singular mental issue or anything like that, because what we saw and what we need for many years reporting out. There was just that this was assessed that issue as much as it was about like one real extraordinary case, so we really did try put over the pathological stepped aside, even though there is incredible scholarship about there's something called pathologic altruism where

you go out of your way to help, even though you know it's hurting the poor people try to help or even hurting yourself, and that kind of stuff incredible, but we were really trying to trade they on the track of understanding this bigger system, because we what a renewed story. The first thing you realise is that there's a whole even our goal world in America that a lot of people must you're in it. But you don't see it immediately. Quit example that I mean the lawyer that she's got on the case. The same way that represented Terry shovels, parents- and that was incredible to me until I realized that there's all these connections and this evangelical world and premature story, pick You're gonna color come always other threads. I think that's an awesome point I'm using often in the in the term that it means. If you look out the word in the dictionary, are we always agent biblical fences

Creating the this. This is something I do. I don't want to lose because I think for many Bob is less you have travelled, maybe outside of the U S you you may not know, or unless you are yourself a practicing avenged color in the missionary community, you're right, this is one of those things that are sort of an invite. A pulcher because it so insular- and I think that's a word that gets used accurately quite often hear. One thing that struck me in in this story is that it is. It is considered completely legitimate right to be spiritually called to something, rather than perhaps secular early qualified to do that thing and with

when we were looking at their worst when it was digging into some of the research here I came up with a couple of a media questions. They went to present two our audience instead of me running through them. I think you would be much better suited to answer these receive, so so the big accusations straight, the big, rumours and ginger were that this person was making the story about themselves right and that this person was due in doing the kind of medical operations or the kind of medical procedures that would require a formal training. Is that correcting and could you when you're telling us about that? Could you tell us a little about how much of that was rumour. How much of that was true, and

Well, I'm just laundry listing questions, I'm so sorry to do this, but I'm so curious about this. Could you also tell us how, people are able to practise medical procedures in this country without licensing or without training, is only take the last one. First so you got, it does have a pre accession, the system of lies to keep NGO as in check and make sure that people are qualified are the ones providing services but at the end of the day it's also enforcement issue, and these these places where allow these Ngos are based, are not the most well resourced, and so it's pretty easy to slip through the cracks. When we started the story, the things hearing me and made me feel like there is this this conspiracy, that somehow the government or these big, YO groups had all conspired to allow this to happen, something like that, but when it came down

what is kind of like a more pedestrian answer, like you got one guy in charge of a whole district, with nine hundred some Ngos The only way we can really do- and so it's pretty easy to slip on the right. Are there and is one of those things that up until recently was pretty sense, I have to talk about openly when a lot of the government budget is coming from foreign Ngos that something the stairway, but that This change no and ugandan government is taking a lot of steps to kind of cool a lot of these paper Ngos and make sure that everyone has a documentation and make sure everyone's doing everything above board and scary slow process. But things are changing there as far as the other stuff I mean you when I came in the allegations were on the world. Let me tell you. Everything I was told about Renee was, an image of this

megalomaniac, this crazy person. It was kind of like apocalypse. I felt Martin Sheen going up the river to meet Colonel Kurtz and reading his files and dislike image. Larger and larger my mind everyday ends? I read her blogs. You can see this trajectory where, like two thousand nine she's at nineteen years old, she gets to Uganda and She's got all this ambition in this good intention to do something, for What she sees as a very vulnerable MIDI place and it starts off. Well enough, I mean She gets all these kids to her house to feed them lunch every day is like a thousand kids are lining up bowls and they get beans and rice, and it was great for a while. She was just a popular. In the community and then she said, noticing all these mothers bringing her children that are just very sick? There is nowhere else to take them, or at least that's what you think

She sees the government hospital. She sees how other staff they aren't she says. Well, then, let me try to jump in and help out and it's a mission creep where No one tells you know, and there's not this really robust system of regulations to keep you from overstepping your bounds and one day, you like poison ivy line, and then There's down the road, you have an entire. I see you built into your house ends. And a culture of missionaries specially and ginger, where you rewarded for being ambitious for taking all this actual responsibility, for going above and beyond, and really putting others before yourself or making. It seem like that. It was almost inevitable with that. Something like this could happen and when I asked a Ugandan NGO Forum purse is her. Name is Margaret. She works, the NGO Forum and Ginger and she overseas all the Ngos there.

And when I asked her about this whole case and we can arrange three allegations as it does a surprise, you and she said So why not because probably happening again somewhere out here, but we just can't know and there's so much going on which he August goes back to the whole thing about this being a systematic is More than anything else I want. I want to speak up just briefly for The missionaries here it just in general as I do, I grew up in a christian church for for a long time and again of gone a bit of a different way a while ago in up to this point, but for role for a time there. The way at least I was exposed to missionary work, It was truly an altruistic thing, where community, somewhere across the world can send their funds there monies that they collect generally on Sundays? When I was a part of it and then you know, send it somewhere else, so that help can be provide, whether its in building infrastructure or maybe even feeding somebody. I can totally

see how maybe that the underlying reasoning to do something like that, even if it is to spread, perhaps your religion if the underlying reason is to help others. It is a tremendously helpful and wonderful thing earliest. You know on paper right, I couldn't hopefully also see how, if you're, going to create a non governmental organisation and take it to the links. I guess perhaps that Renee ended up taking the pearl. Innovation again see how it could become problematic. Just as everything you ve said their regime. I, what did you uncover about what was actually happening in those facilities that she was running? Was it her? Was it a team of people that were attempting to perform things like giving a child, and I ve or an injection of some

patient or another, or was it just her? I mean so that's kind of where this whole case got gets tricky, because at the end of the day we don't have access to medical documents from it. We don't have access to a lawyer of the evidence that would be required to say one way or another we're happened. So what we did was we picked a few cases that sea really tell a story about this NGO and really do deep on those one. The cases was a girl named Patricia who into the facility and issues of an infant ends. Her body was swollen. She was malnourished and had a lot of other publications going on and when she was brought to serving his children? It was determined that she needed a blood transfusion. A doctor over the phone told Renee that this

the blood transfusion and so Renee and one of the nurses there went out and got blood for Patricia, when it came back there and when it was put into Patricia and the transfusion began, they realise that the blood was miss. Mapp and Patricia sort swelling up, and so at that point American nurse was called in the nursemaid. The call to send the child to a private hospital in Kampala, the capital of Uganda, and put her stay there for weak until she stabilize at that point, she was brought back to serve his children and developed a flashing bacteria on her face. That was growing and growing and almost killed her and then They came out that the hospital in Kampala actually diagnose the flashing bacteria. And so let me She became. Why was Patricia discharged, and why did you go back to this unlicensed facility without proper medical professionals to take care of

is really highly sensitive cases, it's really a lot of that that we found can we that, where is just a scratch accumulation of mistakes of someone who did not have the expertise needed to manage situation. Stepping into do so and that led to pretty horrifying consequence and to this day, Patricia lies with the scar interface. There are a lot of complications that can go along with this kind of malnourished. When I was reading a piece on and pr about and oftentimes than theirs, sensitive where you are often times there better left alone than trying to intervene so rapidly, because you can actually cause a heart attack or any number of side effects. I guess from just how sensitive in fragile their bodies have become not to mention many are living with HIV. Other conditions that just exacerbate the whole thing, and so that's particularly. I think why

extra disturbing the thought of someone with no medical training thinking they can just go in and do all this stuff. Yet I think, like This is a really simple test that a lot of people bring up with This case and a lot of mission work abroad like just you wouldn't do in your own neighborhood. Would you be able to do it abroad? A lot of the work that these VON tourists are doing? These volunteer, humanitarians or missionaries are doing there they're kind of organised hills and pharmacy or their building walls and an orphanage or they're playing with kids, I mean they're, not highly technical things They're not sending highly technically qualified people, and so the question becomes: wouldn't it benefit the communal, there, too, just higher locals they make more sense to build up local capacity instead of sending it's from America out there, and so at that point, you start to see these mission trips lie

is concerned about the impact of their making on the ground verses. What they're doing for the people actually go? broad their selling you and experience to go, Reconnect with your faith and put your faith into action, and I think a lot of you really have great experiences and have a different outlook on life. After that and when their manage well, they can be really great experiences on both sides of it. Unfortunately, when profit motive comes in and when really highway go issues start to crop up in these things. That's when we need to be careful about how to proceed. You I'll one hundred percent agree with that point. We ve done some previous work on Ngos. I think I think, for many people? It's easy to hear the phrase in GEO, especially here in the west, and think You know like captain planet

the environment, helping people that kind of stuff right, but I I I profoundly appreciate you bringing up some of the ways in which Ngos can aid and abet systemic inequality in these. In these situations, one One great example would be: clothing drives right, donate, clothing, please and then the way that that is, dispersed or even sold to people in another country is is. It is a death knell for the local textile, History. Do you find in in at least that this situation here? Do you feel like it fair, to say that serving his children at least or spring box original work when she was just feeding the kids. Would you would you be? Do you think it's fair to say that that was a net benefit and that this

accumulation of mistakes are like. Did it start? I guess my direct question is regime. Did it start off Already hurting were than it was helping speaking specifically about a feeling programme, I think, there's a lot of differing opinions in the whole world about whether that, actually, as good for a community or whether it fosters sort of dependency without building anything. There came the hallway, give a man a fish argument. It's easy to see that what she was doing at that point in her career, was far. Less dangerous than what she ended up doing. I think a lot of people go over there with this grand ambition of fixing huge problems, and I think we all remember when we were nineteen twenty and like a thought, we could fix out it, but the difference is we didn't, have money or a structure to do it with

and when you are given those things and play much Carte blanche in a foreign country, things can go off the rails. And so that's when oversight can it comes into play, I dont want to say things started off great or anything like that exists. At the end of the day, I think there's, something to be said for the mentality that you have when you come in and the mentality that allow these people have is one of pride and believing that you, accomplish more than you are able to and there's region. That we cited in the show a professor in or is it spent a long time working with Miss Ingram I can understand the impact that the short term missions have on local communities and what he saw was that people that are less qualified tend to have. More impact for personal experiences than people who work qualified people. If you knew what was going on, you knew you weren't helping and you knew it was gonna- be incredibly difficult to change the condition of people's lives

But if you didn't know what you're talking about, then you thought you were doing lords work at their sort of a Dunning, Krueger, Oh yeah! That's why I wish or maybe delusions of grandeur area and are certainly some folks in India. Discussion around this that I've heard refer to this woman is being aired. Enter alike in our who does she think she is to believe that she can do these things that she really is and qualified to do and obviously the end result was lost life and whether or not that balances out any positive Pact that that she may have done our best intentions gone wrong or what have you? You still can't deny there some and of blind pride or warm self. Delusion Walden and charging into this kind of situation had long without maybe a proper plan to do it a couple years ago when I was a reporting, South Sudan I was covering were ended. Being a a government assault on a town

in Northern South Sudan. Or of soldiers whence and massacred a an ethnic community? if it had a longstanding, say bad relationship with seal hunting their. This whole town was the ghost town and there were tens of thousands of people that had taken refuge at the, U N Camp or at the Red Cross Facility or at the Catholic Compound in the middle of town, and when I went to the catholic compound I found an indian none there who had been in South Sudan for thirty years, and she took me in and for weeks? I was by her side as she like handled the fall out of this horrific attack in her town and. For the first time I felt like I'd seen what missionary or really anyone was capable of doing when

they had their head in the right place in their hearts. In the right place, I mean she built schools, hospitals, clinics. She was a teacher, the college he was teaching nurses. She had built the biggest. Children's hospital in the in them in that state ends from the outside. She unimpeachable figure of righteousness, and I dont use that word lightly or sarcastically him. She was just like you, doing thing and it made me- want to go, follow in her footsteps, and it was just like a very captivating inspiring thing to see, but every night, when we would kind of go to replace any dinner. She would convey. And say that she didn't know what her purpose, what should in future is making any impact She didn't know where all of this lead, but the next morning she be up before I was making breakfast and get now to hit the road and get to work, and I think

I saw there was that it's a wonderful thing to have a good heart, a wonderful thing to have good intentions about something, but what makes when the writing difficult, is that you never know if you are doing the right thing, and the only way to guard against crossing that line is to have. Melody and self doubt, and I found that the people who are often doing the right thing world are also tearing themselves to pieces, trying to answer the question and if they are doing the right thing, that's really beautiful way of looking at it. And it's true. I mean it is kind of our constant moral quandary interest. I always telling my daughter, you know. Self awareness is like one of the most important skills, I guess or trades that you can have, because without that you're gonna, just drift Mahina how you can really see yourself or how other people see you.

How will you even know? How can you like self correct, or course correct? If you get you now on the wrong path, so that's Angus incredible story and will return to explore the story of missionary in further depth. After a word from we're sponsor did you know. Guy goes now offering an extra fifteen percent credit on car and motorcycle policies. That's fifteen percent, on top of what Geico could already save you. So what are you waiting for? Your dentist actually believe and your flashing everyday absolute, Lee Great you're coming down in her sweet. Of course. Wonderful, then matter even the look in their great z. In six months there has never been a better time to switch to Gaga save an extra fifteen percent when you switch by October, seventh limitations, apply visit, Geico Duck, offer details and we're back. So serving his children was founded in two thousand and nine in the state.

And then was made official in Uganda and twenty turn what it started out. Was an outreach in feeding programme. Rene, got a house in this pretty rough neighbourhood outside ginger in Uganda, which is pretty you are tourists, town, lotta, lotta, expats out there doing the grafting encamping in four wheelman stuff and its also, because This kind of missionary mecca, that's really popular, because its uneasy place to live. They re all year round and just really way to outsiders, sort, shut up shop there in this rough neighbourhood called necessity She rented a house, their ends twice a week, you can start feeding the kids beans and rice then she noticed all these other problems, underneath that These mothers were coming to her with really sick children that needed help, and so she said, taking on so

kids, letting the stay over the house, letting them get healthy and we keep a close eye on them and slowly that led into a more active role of getting, can the hospitals getting them blood it getting them whatever they needed and then around when he turned ten two Levin it became, more in house thing where they were trying to do in patient procedures and really focus on this issue. Malnutrition, but the thing is when you're malnourished? You also pick up a load of other diseases, and so you have all these severe complications and You need to have the highest training and quality actions to manage these really sensitive kids, and at that point it's difficult to say when things went off the rails by weight. At that point and say, I think we're we're often now so that's a crucial part in a timeline. The regime like tat.

That part of that area- twenty ten twenty eleven. I believe, that's why, You see the involvement of one Jacqueline crammed which Zanger gigantic yeah, Jackie Kremlin. I'd Jackie crammed lake is please please a a pivotal part. I guess in the way that the U S in the west sees the narrative unfold. Could you tell us a little bit about crammed licks background and then I how led to Kelsey Niels and you mentioned this earlier and I am sure it's an organization, or at least a series of terms that some of our fellow listeners clocked no white saviours. So outsiders, cram leaks involvement led to Kelsey led to this, I'll. Tell you our podcast team group chairs-

is the image of Charlie in the mail room with all the red strings, pointing a different photo than they have done, and I am therefore unable to put and coherent words, and it's been yeah its arguments. Shire Jackie Grimwig, got her nursing degree in America and was qualified to be a nurse, but when she Uganda Renee innovation told her that she did not need to register for a medical licence in Uganda. So the whole Jackie was there, she was operating with our and nursing licence in Uganda. Less her expertise was really called on and there's a few anecdotes that she tells where are being really sick, kid Renee would be like scram. To figure out, was going wrong in instead of asking Jackie what was going on. She would call for and in America to google it or something like that, and it's that kind of unclear

command or that lack of delegation that was kind of first red flag for Jackie. But what really did it for Jackie was that case Tricia, where she saw over and over again all these mistakes can build up and lead to this child be scarred for life, for which acts, as was no good reason. I just this child should not have been scarred doll. Shortly after Patricia was discharged from serving his children, Jackie resigned and went to go work with another organisation and ginger around. This time, a woman named Kelsey Nielson who is an American from of you came to ginger too, start her own and GEO for family Reunification, which I guess this is the other, is the registering pointing outwards in ginger, there's a whole industry of child adoptions. That is pretty corrupt and,

I mean in the most cynical phrasing you can pay fifty grand and get a lawyer to prove it, not an adoption for a kid and then you're a brand new parent and a lot of families that go through this process. Don't necessarily with their getting into. They think it's just like for a year or two in the shower come back, but then they realize. That they signed a waiter, their Sunday daughter fur forever. Mrs really tragic thing and what causes organization tried to do was provide these families with resources to be able to keep their families together rather than being offered money in having these kids leave at that time were nay and a few other missionaries were really just top of their game They were the mother Teresa gingerly. They were just they set the standard for what a missionary was for how much self sacrifice the work entails, then Kelsey really looked at them. But at some point all these

contradictions and ginger of people saying that they were doing good for the community within the community, not getting any better. They can came to head and Kelsey decided she achieved to speak out, so she teamed up with A former employees of her A ugandan social worker named Olivia Lazo and Two of them create an organization called no eight saviours, which is fair sports Instagram page fiery into page, which has a hundred thousand followers? when I met them, I was like ten fifteen thousand, so it has been incredible to see how much traction they ve gone over the last year. There's another instrument, it's called Barbie Savior, which, if you ve seen it is a collection of photos of Barbie Doll, dressed up as a volunteer, as the missionary can't traipsing around Africa finding herself and follow your calling

really sarcastic thing where she's picking up black you may like? Oh, my god, look I'm in love with this place and she s like tattoo of Africa to chest everything That account was actually started by Jackie Grimwig part of the impetus for this account, which has a hundred. Fifty thousand followers now was Renee Jackie says that one of them Sport is a debt of Barbie, getting plain and waving goodbye to her family. A replica of the photo that Renee put up on her blog, the same thing and so that was kind of our window into seeing this ginger community, as almost like high school drama and I do want to minimize the the trauma, victims in whole situation by saying I was sick, mean girls fight, but I mean there's big the story that is just as pressure cooker of

with a bunch of young missionaries are all trying to combine all trying to save the world and their at each other's throats the whole time and its using because tells We looked at the superstars rockstar of ginger like TAT, Davis and Renee back as the main girls of ginger, that they were these popular girls that when aspire to be, and he had to be smart and pretty to get intergroup but when Renee talks about how the ginger community turned on her and to demolish your entire career and ruin a reputation. He calls, calcium them. The main girls and so a kind of gets into this back and forth. Where I mean we got in it. All these rumours fooling around ends some point. We have divorce ourselves and get back the real story which are the the famine.

That went through serious children, but it gave us a huge insight into what happens when you go to church on site, they put money in the basket and it goes off. Ginger world can gossiping at the cafe their pain for lattes, with IRAN's money, and with that we're going to take a quick breaking your word from our sponsor we're back, let's jumped to the real impact, because there's you guys, some some reporting on the actual quantitative numbers of people who you know through the system there once lived there for a while retreated there who

were either injured or did not make it. Can you talk to us a little bit about the the actual impact there was had on far too people there. Okay so serving his children's impatient programme started in twenty ten and twenty team, the ugandan government stepped into shut serving his children down because they did not have a medical licence. The one that they had had expired so with the numbers that serving his shoulder and provides between twenty ten and twenty fifteen hundred and five. Children passed away, while eight hundred Eighty five children went home, happy and healthy, and you look at those numbers and read them in a way that and he looked at me- they get a fourteen percent mortality rate. That's not bad! Considering that the government's standard is twenty to twenty five percent, like they were doing better than the basque government hospitals, but then you get a member

these are Serious- children's o numbers, not corroborated elsewhere, and at the end of the day, for four of the five years of those statistics, serving his children was an unlicensed medical facility. It was an illegal facility in Uganda. At that point, you have to ask yourself: is one child's death at a facility like this too many, and that's, I guess way quote when it comes down to ITALY. That's the interpretive part of this, and some people are willing to swallow those numbers and say these kids would have died. No matter what we say. Trying to help them and in fact some ugandan doctors? We spoke with told us that, but I think it takes

education and awareness of cases like this to make people think twice about following in these footsteps. One thing that David Gibbs, who helps represent the family here in the states, the bark family in the states. One thing he says that the campaign that no wait saviours is trying to put out against Renee against always other. Why, savers and missionaries, what he's afraid of is it will create a chilling effect on people that want to go out into the world and help their fellow person, and that's that's a sphere that someone with good intentions, when they see things like this will be too afraid to go out and help. But there's a part of me that thing Maybe that is what needed, maybe like that's, how you

Bring self awareness into the situation and bring humility into the situation is by holding to account people that taken advantage of such certain situations or Cynthia cracks and hurt more than they helped and an that's that's the point you know perceived eloquence aside, you know there are larger links, everything, nothing, nothing is cool. Did in isolation, right everything, existing contacts and you in some way an end. Result of all the actions preceding it, and one thing that I think is incredibly pertinent here: a multiple situations

I a bride and in the U S today is the concept of knowing one's rights that you hit upon excellently. In this case, one thing that seems to be a damning allegation is the lack of informed consent, which we ve talked about previous. Lee on the show you will have. I believe there were some folks on the S age, sea side who said well paperwork side, legal or illegal status aside, we had people sign forms that acknowledged Juno, that this is not the very carefully acknowledged the type of care it was, and it was not, and these four instead the Blake, I understand that some people were illiterate when they were asked to sign these forms I further understand that these foreigners were in English, which not necessarily

everybody in the country or at that centres specifically could read. Is that correct? yes, so I don't know the ins and outs of ugandan law, but from what the the The lawyer on the side of the plaintiffs says: if a person does not speak English or read English site, one of these documents. It has to be accompanied by a proof that it was interpreted or translated for the signing and those documents were not provided which have the which, like threads invalidate them and a big part of this case is this question of whether Renee impersonated a doctor, there's allegation

but she wore a lab co hours at the scope me, we have photos of her with a start, the scope and not the lab coat, and then there's allegations that, like she told people she was doktor or did not refuse when people called her doktor ends I think that is part of the same discussion where you go. To these rural communities that their engagements with white folks, for the most part, are people with Ngos and people from these big. Groups when you see a white person walk into one of these communities and they're asking for children with. Nutrition and they're gonna clipboard in their hands and skipped stethoscope or on their neck. You're gonna think that they have some medical qualifications. And a lot of the former employees can save us well that it took them years before they realize Renee wasn't qualified doctor. I think I ll of what no I'd say.

She's getting out as well as that white people in these reared in these vulnerable places can get away with a lot just by the colors and when their privilege means so much more in these places than it does even in America. Even I like walk into one of these places and with an american accent and just kind of people respect me and give me a certain. Of respect and trust that is not afforded to Ugandans, and so part of it is people not knowing their rights and is outsiders? Not fully aware of the privilege that they carry into these communities. That's really so I mean us something. I think we all need to think about and internalize but a lot. You know where we're in a moment in history were received. I think there is a tremendous amount of goodwill going around right now. There's a lot of work,

meaning and no matter how elementary the learning is. It there's a lot of learning, that's happening. I wonder if there, You know in your travels gone to Sudan, where, wherever perhaps you ve traveled it for your work. If you ve found organizations or ways to maybe maybe it's as simple as a monetary way of supporting a group or somebody who is doing something good somewhere that people listening and us, though we could help without interfering d, you think there's anything out there. That exists like that. I think before anything else is this about. Am I the right person to go out and do that thing and I think learning vat for myself is obviously something that took me a long time to even like begin to start we're standing, I mean, Went to South Sudan. I was nineteen got off

and nobody there was. I ain't right stories about this place. Better read about books, learn pretty quickly that maybe I'm not the person for it- and there is a tricky thing too, can position Often say: wake. Where you belong and what you should do, what shouldn't do but where I kind of land after doing this whole year long investigation is, I tend to air, the sight of inaction. Now helium atom and it's like a get so fed up, and you just feel kind of stymied, and it's like. Why bother I talk to about the government just like voting and stuff in it, and it's not especially when you see so many people mobilizing and getting out- and you know trying to at least make a difference like I, like my ex wife hadn't, had me in my daughter and her friend and her their son go and do is protesting and they're our neighborhood Only black neighborhood and I was served. This is preaching to the choir. This is so I was just going to then we went out and it was just

how can the worn just seen that we gave a shit enough to like you know, stand there on the curb of Zion? On the same, that's like some grand gesture, but really open my eyes to the fact that even just showing people that you care is meaning more meaningful than you think I think. Sometimes you know it's easy to get swept up in the some of it all and then to forget that, like you know, people do see you when you see them and that's important not to lose sight o. I think Canada I think, to refine my point. Then I guess I would caution against people that want to start their own thing without seeing what other people are up to first, because it while other doing it right with one great example and ginger itself right when came in to start her organization. There is another white missionary. Woman named Elizabeth, had been a form real estate brokering, California and then one day heard her calling to Africa and ended up in Uganda, She also want to tackle malnutrition, but rather than

darting, her own power grim building her own facility in who, like that she went to the government hostile, ask them. What do you need and ended up building a malnutrition ward for them, where she would just keep it stock and supplies and help administer the this. The logistical and administrative aspects of it She knew the limits of her expertise and put everything she knew into action with an organisation that was already set up to tackle the problem that she wanted to tackle. This brings up something that guy that ethical skipped over little bit at the beginning. I won to get in here, which is the idea of what what is helping versus hurting, there's, also wrapped up in that inherently the question of what is century right, psychologically, we're all pro

and to think of ourselves as the protagonist of our own story. Right, I end with this issue. In ongoing problem for anyone doing international research, that summit comes in and they say why. You know. I went to school for this, and I know like I know a little bit of wine native language. Let me tell you how to handle this right, and it is wrapped up in this, but we also see that in the protests- here in the? U s right. You know there have been people with I'm sure the best of intentions re who were who are saying Euro I want to express solidarity by starting my organization that will ah that will you don't make me feel good about doing the right thing right and and perhaps back up my performative social media, but even it within function, these kind, of organizations can be other ring and the

and also divert funding that was going to You don't like the government hospital that all ready, really needed that matter, you reward the your mentioning that Elisabeth created and I think that's a. I think- that's a powerful thing, I'm I know it's a lot to ask. And I hope he doesn't sound like you know. We're heaping opprobrium on people who do, as you said, probably have the best intentions, but is. Is that what you recommend. Would you recommend for someone who wants to help to wait? What would be a good way to say this would be more like invest in em If I, rather than try to start a new thing, now do. The right thing is just take a minute. You know, I'm not saying we sit down forever Billy just take a minute. Do better research and see he's doing out there I mean

moment when, after I was with the nun in South Sudan, where I want to be missionary for I wanted. I do the thing and my plea was just to go. Move back to south and live with her and just like, learn the ropes their ends. I think there's a lot of value in just going to place without an agenda necessarily and just kind of soaking it in because a lot of people go out to these places. I mean part of you go out. There is to satisfy the sense of adventure of being in a foreign place. I mean I'm guilty of that as much as any other foreign correspondent think I don't think, there's harm in just going to place to be there, and learn about. What's going on before you decide to do anything because nine times

Whatever problem you try to solve this, someone already out there doing it and they could use your help. I think that's tremendously well said we we typically when we explore some of these stories, at least on our show. We we try to go towards future, which I think you have done very well and that we also try to export current events. We mentioned a couple of times a lawsuit, for anyone in the audience is wondering As far as I understand regime that loss who has not reached a conclusion, is that correct so you're. Just too can fill in some lawsuit January of twenty nineteen to mothers, who claim that their children passed away after being treated at serving his children, took Renee to court They filed a civil suit against her in the ginger high court. Ants are currently

awaiting the outcome of a mediation process to try to settle something out of court, and if that doesn't happen, then it will return to the public for so since March. I think. Recently, the ugandan government can shut down all those processes with covered precautions and so everything's kind of frozen for now, but it's a difficult thing to make figure out what justice looks like necessarily in all these situations, because on one end, there's an argument that these, Others kid just settle adequate, get a couple thousand dollars go home and that's a lot of money out there. Right and then the other arguments, ignoble, gonna, fight this thing and they gotta make prove something and there's justice, to be one here for everybody, but I think it's a lot ask as well as anyone You know this is a tremendous Lee heavy thing to think of

and talk about and subject to make a show about, but I would just say thank you to you and your team for making it too all of us aware of what's going on there or better aware you'd like to learn more about this case and everything that happened at serving his children and the story of renewed Bach and the ongoing lawsuits in him and everything involved. We highly recommend you going check out the podcast, the missionary, which is hosted by our ass today receive Gala, as well as his team members wholly muggy candy and Malcolm Burnley again can't recommended enough. The park ass is called the missionary yet receive. Thank you for coming on air with ice. Today cause. You travel so widely

I can only imagine. It must also be a little bit odd to be in one place for an extended amount of time. So thank you for spending this time with eyes. Oh, we want asthma said we want everybody to check out the show its ongoing as we report this, but we at their multiple episodes out there Do I highly recommend that you dive in this is top notch journalism visa- and this is not not blowing spoke here. It's weird regime, I can see you on the call, but I'm not we're we're not saying this, because This is very well researched, captivating, more the worth your type, I ends We want to hear what you think about the topics we addressed here, Ngos. We want to hear what you think about the ideas that we have sport regarding missionary work and the ideas regarding Renee Bach regime, for people who like to learn more about you.

And the missionary and your work outside with the missionary where's the place they can find you a little more you on the other big creepy. Big there. We call the internet Well, my portfolio website is Rajiv Gola dot com and my twitter handle is Roger you, where you can find twin about NASCAR most of time, the Hague. Nor us it of speaking the internet. I hear our shoes on their two yeah yeah. We were around, you, can the sun, the usual social media spots like Facebook and- the agreement, although our either a conspiracy, staffer conspiracy, stuff, show on all the usual suspects you can also find this individual human people. I am on Instagram exclusively at how now Knoll Brown I am, Anne Boleyn, H S w on Twitter, you can find receiving. Both on their ah

I am in a burst of creativity, call myself at them bowling on Instagram and if you don't want to you so media. You can always give us a phone call. Our number is one. Eight three, three s t d, W Whitey Kay. Can leave us a message. You three minutes talk about it, episode any other episode or another one you'd like us to cover. Really we just we'd love to hear from you. So please give us, but if none of that white bags, your badgers, we have one way you can always get in touch with us. You dont have to just you know meet me, crossroads midnight or save a aim into a dark mirror. You can send us an email twin four hours a day, seven days a week. How many, every day in a year there are, you can reach us directly. We are concerned. Said I how radio dot com

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