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A History of Diabetes, Pre Insulin, Part 1

2020-03-09 | 🔗

To lead into discussing the discovery of insulin, today we have a history of diabetes and its treatment in the centuries before insulin was developed, including the starvation diets that were used in the years just before the discovery. 

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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a group of brave feminist revolutionaries fighting to establish a more equitable society. You can hear what I learned their on my new podcast series. The women war into the women's war on the Iheart Radio, app apple podcast or you get your podcast Welcome to stuff you missed in history, glass of production of I radio, hello and welcome to the body ass time. Tracy be well, I'm Holly. Before we start on today's episode, I wanted to update folks we mentioned previously. couple episodes ago that we are going to be doing alive, show on July fifth at Adams, National historical Park in Quincy Massachusetts- and I just want to let folks know that the park
information about that show up on their website now, so you can go to empty ass dot, Gov, Slash Adam, which is the Adams National Historical per website you can scroll down to the calendar were on their or its also on their facebook at Facebook, dot com, Slash Adams, M p S, and that show, if you miss the announcement previously, it's gonna be on July. Fifth, it is a day I'm outdoor show two p m. It was a fine time. Last time we were there, so we're expecting another funds at him. Yes, fingers crossed whether or not we have any ghosts they get in the machine and messrs recording. I plan to have all kinds of fun me too, and now we will get into today's episode. We have gotten a lot of requests over the years to talk about the discovery of insight.
and that's something that was so immediately Informatica Lee Life, saving that it was hailed as a miracle and that discovery was also deeply contentious. In the words of John Mcleod, he was one of the two men who was awarded the Nobel Prize for discovering insulin and one thousand nine hundred and twenty three quote if every discovery entails as much squabbling over priority, etc. As this one has, it will put the job of trying to make them out of fashion. It is a hide, a story when we get hacked shuffle discovery of insulin part, but we're going to do this in two parts I feel like so many of our scientists discovery stories. Go that way that it makes me chuckle. That he's like this one is the most dramatic I'd like are you think with. We have definitely talked about a lot of of of fighting among the discoverers of things. This is the first one I personally recall
in in the modern era that involved fisticuffs, so I won't get to that part in cell part, because this is a story that were telling in two parts. Today we have a history of diabetes and its treatment in the centuries before insular was developed and that is going to include the starvation diet that were included in the years. Just before insulin was discovered and the next time we will be talking about it, when, including all of that squabbling and the fisticuffs and we'll talk about how it became a widely available treatment for diabetes. along with some of the developments that have happened since then, and in both parts of this we're gonna be talking about research, that involved testing on animals, subjects and, in part, two will also be talking about the use of by products from animals that were slaughtered for food. Ok, so hormones are substances that help coordinate all
kinds of complex processes in your body and insulin is one of the hormones that helps regulate the amount of sugar or glucose in your blood. Your body has to have glucose to live most of yourselves in especially your brain use it for fuel, but also really important to have the right amount of glucose circulating in your blood having too much too little can lead to several complications, some of which are life threatening at a very basic level, because, like colleague just said, these are complex processes that bodies attempts to regulate blood glucose. Go this way when your blood sugar rises year, pancreas releases insulin, and that prompts your body to store the extra sugar. Then, if your blood glucose dips, too low you're pancreas releases, another hormone called glucose gone
that prompts your body to release some of that stored sugar. There are other systems of the body involved with this, and there are other hormones besides LUCA Guy. That could help raise your blood sugar, but insulin is the only one that can really lower it. Diabetes, mellitus, which you may have heard, pronounced a different way. I certainly had up to this point, but that is correct is a group of conditions that affect the way your body produces or works with insulin in type one diabetes, the pancreas either doesn't produce any insulin, or it makes very little, which means that the body does
have a good way to lower blood glucose levels, although type one diabetes can develop and people of any age it is usually diagnosed in children and young people, which is why it used to be called juvenile diabetes. It has also been called insulin, dependent, diabetes and type two diabetes. Either the pancreas isn't making enough and insulin, although it is making some or the body resists the effects of insulin. So it's also been called. insulin resistant, diabetes, type, two diabetes has generally been more prevalent in adults, although its also becoming more common and younger people and because its tended to develop during adulthood type two diabetes also used to be known as adult onset diet
is there is also gestation diabetes. The hormones involved with pregnancy make the body more resistant to insulin in most people, the pancreas increases insolent production enough to make up for this when a woman's pregnant, but in others it does not most of the time this resolves after the end of the pregnancy. Today, treating every type of diabetes mellitus generally involves diet and lifestyle modifications, along with regular blood sugar monitoring. There are also some oral medications that can stimulate the pancreas to produce more insolent or can adjust how the body responds to insulin, and sometimes these steps are enough to manage type two or gestation of diabetes, but some people with these conditions need insulin therapy as well.
This is especially true. The longer someone lives with type two diabetes. On the other hand, insulin therapy is always necessary in type one diabetes before insulin was developed. People with type one diabetes, typically lived only a few months or years after they started showing symptoms as the excess glucose in their bloodstream ultimately lead to coma and death. Although insulin therapy has existed for less than a hundred years, of when we're recording this people have recognised diabetes for millennia. Ancient and medieval documents have described a group of symptoms that we still know today, including excessive thirst, excessive urination Annette, blamed weight, loss, fatigue and you're in that tastes are smells sweet and even these earlier medical writers haven't known what caused all of these symptoms. They understood that they were all connected to one condition. I dont think I have ever heard the taste part before it,
like gross. How do we know that used to be a thing in diagnostic medicine was tasting. People's you're in the earliest known mention of diabetes is often cited as neighbours Papyrus does put virus was written in ancient Egypt in fifteen fifty two b c e, but named for George Embers, who bought it and published it in English and Latin in the eighteen seventies. This mention is a little bit vague, though the pirates includes a remedy quote, to eliminate urine, which is too plentiful
and I could be referencing the frequent urination that accompanies diabetes, but it could also be about something more common and relatively benign, such as a urinary tracked infection, and, what's now, India, the physicians, a shrewd and a surgeon Jakarta both described diabetes with Sis Shrewder, noting the difference between what we would describe today as types one and two. We also have a whole episode on fishery to back in the archives. These tax date back to the verdict period, which
between one thousand six hundred Bc Ie and they use terms that translate to honey, urine or sweet urine diseased, and they describe ants being attracted to the patients urine in about four hundred BC. E hypocrisy is described diagnostic criteria for diabetes, although that name had not been coined. Yet the criteria were that the person had a history of excessive hunger thirst and your nation and that their urine was sweet and he described this condition is very rare. All of this actually predates the first written descriptions of the pancreas switch, as we mentioned earlier, is the organ that produces insulin. That first description came from greek physician, hurrah fellas around the third century b c e from terms that meant all flesh, raffles did not know about insolent. At this point, though,
described the organ, that's the pancreas. Two different people are credited with coining the term diabetes, both of them living in about the second century. One was Demetrius of Apamea and the other was a radius of Cappadocia. The word itself is from a greek word, meaning to run through or describing a thing that fluid runs through, in other words, some kind of syphon. So all goes back to that excessive thirst and you're, a nation that are characteristic of diabetes. Eritrea has described it. This way quote the course is the common one, namely the kidneys and the bladder for the patients, never stop making water, but the flow is incessant. As from the opening of awkward ups, the nature of the disease, then, is chronic and it takes a long period to form, but the patient is short lived if the constitution of the disease be completely established
the melting as rapid, the death speedy, and then he went on with further description from there. The physician Galen living in the roman empire in the second and third centuries also described diabetes. He wrote quote: I am of the opinion that the kidneys Two are affected in the rare disease which some people call chamber pot dropsy other then diabetes or violent thirst. For my own part, I have seen the disease till now only twice when the patient suffered from an inextinguishable thirst which forced them to drink enormous quantities. The fluid was urinating swiftly with a u. In resembling the drink, he called the condition: diarrhoea you're, a Noma or diarrhoea of the urine at about the same time,. In Han Dynasty China,
anxiety, also described the classic symptoms of thirst and excessive urination, and then later chinese documents also described the phenomenon of sweet urine with the chinese term for diabetes, translating to wasting and thirsting written references continue into the medieval period, including previous pine, cast, subject even Siena, also known as ever centre rating in eleven century. Persia medieval, persian writing uses two different terms for diabetes, one that's derived from the word diabetes and one that translates to water wheel, even Siena describe leaving a patient's Europe to evaporate and it leaving a sticky sweet residue behind over all these ancient and medieval writers describes diabetes as a condition more often than they describe some kind of treatment for it. That's, possibly because
and what we now know is type one diabetes. Patients generally did not live very long after being diagnosed. The treatments that did exist were mostly in line with whatever system of medicine was being practice that a given place and time. colluding abstaining from or eating more of certain foods. Various herbal preparations and plant extracts, Sir Shrewder, who observed a correlation between diabetes and a person's wait, recommended a healthy, moderate diet and exercise as a preventive measure, although type to die These can develop regardless of a person's weight, and there were also recommendations that things like opium to try to make patients be more comfortable, but it wasn't until later that people started to understand the diabetes did not just cause does sugar in the year end, but also caused sugar in the blood and tried to formulate treatments based on that discovery and organ
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Emma seventeenth century people started making some more concrete discoveries about diabetes beyond describing its outwardly observable signs. One was swiss anatomist, Johan, Conrad Brunner, who partially removed the pancreas of dogs and then observed afterward that these dogs had an increased appetite, urination and thirst. He didn't really connect those symptoms back to diabetes, though, by that point, the idea that diabetes caused sweet urine had been forgotten, at least in Britain, where the practice of physicians tasting their patients you're in had fallen out of favour. Who boy am I glad that happened, but it is one thousand six hundred and seventy four Thomas Willis did taste of patients urine Working at Oxford, University and afterward, he coined the term diabetes mellitus
with Melodist, coming from a latin term for sweet or honeyed, and this was to set the condition apart from diabetes? Insipid is, which is also associated with excessive Thurston urination, but is related to salt rather than sugar. Diabetes. Insipid is, as a whole, separate thing that we are not talking about in this episode at all. Beyond what we just said in seventeen. Seventy six physician, Matthew, Dobson of Liverpool, confirm something that probably seems really obvious at this point. He evaporated a patient's urine and what was left behind was the material
indistinguishable from sugar. So the reason the people are having sweet urine with because there was literally sugar in there, but he made another discovery as well, and that's that the person's blood serum was also sweet. So he was the one that started making that connection. That diabetes was not just about sugar in the urine. It was also about sugar in the blood in one thousand. Seven hundred and seventy eight Thomas Kali was doing an autopsy on someone with diabetes and he noticed stones and signs of damage to the pancreas, and he suggested that Two things might be related, but that connection didn't really become clear or more widely known until later, in eighteen. Fifty six french physiology Claude Bernard discovered that the body stores excess glucose in the liver, and he coined the term like agenda for this form of stored sugar. He also discovered that the nervous system,
a role in regulating blood sugar. You may these discoveries, as many of these other researchers did by experimenting on dogs. This was something that really horrified his family. His wife, Marie France, was ultimately filed for divorce, took custody of their children and established an anti vivisection society in response to his work. She was one of the first of many people to object to the use of experiments on animals that were related to the study of diabetes or to the development of insulin. Then, in the late eighteen sixties, while he was still in medical school, Paul Langer HANS made a big step in discovering the connection between diabetes and the pancreas. Today, we know that the pancreas plays a role in both the died,
Save and the indifference systems when it comes to digestion the pancreas excrete digestive enzymes that make their way through ducts into the small intestine as an end, a criminal amber the pancreas secrete several hormones, including insulin, but when longer had started his research people.
Knew very little about the microscopic structures of the pancreas or what those structures did. His work really started to change that and his thesis on the pancreas. He described nine different types of cells, and at least two of them had not been described before. One was a type of acid or cell which the creeds, digestive enzymes, and he wasn't really sure what the other cells were four, but he observed that they were clumps together in the pancreas. In these little groups, leghorns publishes thesis in eighteen, sixty nine in eighteen. Ninety three, a french history, physiologist named Edward Largesse, observe the same cells, any name them four legged HANS, like S, also theorize that these cells might secrete something that removed glucose from the urine. At this point, people had theorize that some organ.
might secrete some kind of chemicals that worked in the body somehow, but the word hormone had not been coined yet in between when longer HANS described these cells and when Le Guess named them the eyelids of longer HANS to french researcher. Made another discovery in eighteen: eighty four Louisville yard and Childs Louie, Xavier Artisan, discovered that if you closed off the main ducked of rabbits pancreas, the pancreas itself would atrophy, but it appeared that only the asked ourselves atrophied blocked the eyelids of longer hands and then the rabbits did not experience the increased appetite and urination and thirst that Bruno had discussed two hundred years before after he partially removed the pancreas is of dogs. Five years later, in Germany, Oscar Mc Caskey and Joseph unvarying totally remove the pancreas of a dog which immediately develop symptoms of severe diabetes, including coma and death,
unlike Gruner, Mc Caskey and VON Meringue were able to remove the whole pancreas and they made the connection between the pancreas and diabetes. So through all of this, western medicine had started to form a basic understanding that diabetes caused. Elevated sugar both in the blood and in the urine, and it also seemed related to the pancreas specifically to these islets of longer HANS and it had some connections to the nervous system and to deliver, based on this growing knowledge. Researchers speculated on a number of potential treatments. At this point, though it was known that diabetes cause sugar in both the blood and the urine, it was much easier to test the Euro M blood test. a lot longer and they required so much blood that the tests themselves could be fatal for research animals. So many of these initial studies were focused on our symptoms, lake thirst and urination
as well as how much glucose was in the urine, rather than specifically testing blood. Why an idea was that diabetes root cause had something to do with the livers, Gleich agenda storage and that it might be possible to stimulate the nervous system to activate that storage in the liver, or that may be the liver might be the key to the treatment for diabetes. But a lot of researchers were focusing on the pancreas and whether some kind of pancreatic extract could treat diabetes. Most of these researchers followed the same basic process. They would remove the pancreas of or another animal which essentially caused it to develop diabetes, and then they would try to treat
that animal with an injected pancreatic extract, sometimes from the same animals pancreas and sometimes from the pancreas of a different animal. This is not the first time that people made extracts from endocrine glands and use them as a treatment for patients who were not producing enough of that particular hormone. The first use of firewood extract to treat hypo by Roy does them goes back to at least eighteen. Ninety one similar use of adrenal extract started in the late 19th century as well and Joq to Takamine of Japan, isolated and purified adrenaline from cow glands in one thousand, nine hundred and one the methods for preparing this pancreatic extract, varied and for the most part they were at least somewhat effective in reducing the amount of sugar, in a test subjects blood, as shown by the corresponding reduction in sugar in their urine, as because, if you make a pancreatic extract, it's very likely to contain at least some insulin
but it's also hard to separate the insulin from all the other tissues and substances that are part of the pancreas. So willingly. All these experiments also cause side effects that made the work simply too risky to try and human subjects. This included things like abscesses and other infections and extreme fevers, and also shock the first person known to try. This was french physiologist using delay in the late nineteenth century, Glade removed the pancreas as of dogs and entreated them with injections of a pancreas extract. The injections reduce the dog Thurston, their urine output and also lowered the amount of sugar in the year and but for reasons that are not clear at all. He stopped his work on the subject in eighteen, ninety and then kept his findings, sealed until after the discovery of insulin was announced. more than thirty years later, meanwhile, in nineteen hundred pathologist Eugene Lindsey Opie of Johns Hopkins discovered that the ILO
of Langerhans, showed, showed signs of atrophy and patients who have died as a result of diabetes in nineteen O. Five earnest Henry Starling coined the word hormone and people began to suggest that the eyelids Langer hands were screening. Some kind of hormone that lowered blood sugar. Both of these discoveries fed into the ongoing work can pancreatic extracts in animals. George Ludwig Zuser of Berlin conducted his experiments on rabbits, and he was successful enough that he did try to inject his extract on a dying patient in one thousand nine hundred and six, although this did seem to have some positive effect for the patient, patients, blood and you're in word tested to confirm it. They were really looking at outward symptoms and the patient died shortly. After tsar ran out of his extract. He went on to work with five other human patients, but they all experienced high fevers vomiting convoy. Friends and other serious side effects as some other examples of this research Liddy
Maria Adams Dewitt did her work with cats in nineteen o six negating the pancreatic doubts to try to isolate just the eyelids of Langer hands when preparing her extract, romanian physician Nicolet Pulaski also worked with dogs in nineteen fifteen and one thousand nine hundred and sixteen developing an extract that he called pancreas before his work was disrupted by world war. Israel as climber whose parents had immigrated to the United States from Bavaria, work has pancreatic extracts and dogs in nineteen nineteen. All of this works at least some promise. It was safe enough to use as a treatment for diabetes, we'll talk about how people started, trying to manage diabetes through diet at about the same time after a sponsor break, you
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The idea that diabetes might be controlled or prevented through diet goes back thousands of years to such shrewdest sporadic medical text that we talked about earlier, but in terms of what people were trying after the medical community started to get a better sense of what was happening inside the body. One of the first people to suggest a dietary approach was John Rollo of Scotland became an english army surgeon and he was doing his work in the earlier years of when people were starting to make physiological discoveries about diabetes, Rolo concluded incorrectly. The diabetes was a digestive problem, in which some kind of stomach issue was causing vegetable matter to break down into excessive sugar and one thousand seven hundred and ninety. Ex he worked with an army captain who had developed what we would know today is type two diabetes, Rollo reckon
ended a diet that was primarily meet along with some bread, milk and lime. Water treatment had other components as well, including rubbing the patient's body with large, producing an external alteration over each kidney and wine opium at bedtime. After a couple of weeks on his regiment, the patient was, according to Rollo, producing less urine and servant said that his ear and was now. Hunger, sweet, so tea was really not on the right track in terms of diabetes cause, but the diet that he was recommending was closer to correct. It was low in sugar and other carbohydrates, but there were also physicians who drew the opposite conclusion about how diet might be used to treat diabetes in Paris and eighteen fifties. Pierre Adolf fury recommended a high sugar high calorie
diet, reasoning that patients or ex greeting so much sugar in their urine that they would need to eat more of it to replace it. Unfortunately, this approach was absolutely the opposite of what needed to be done, and it contributed to at least one patients. Death who is terrifying? Apollon AIR Boucher Bath, who was living in Paris at about the same time as purely took a dietary approach that was closer to Rollo. Does he recommended a diet? There was high and fat but low in sugar and other carbohydrates. He also recommended that patients fast periodically and that they exercise Bouchard. I did a lot of other work in the field of diabetes research as well. He is sometimes called the father of Diabetes, ology moving into the twentieth century to doctors built on Boucher, Dots recommended
and and formulated the most well known and widely used diets for people with diabetes. In the years, just before insulin was developed, this was Frederick Madison Alan Anne Elliot Proctor Joscelyn, and they started in about nineteen fifteen. Alan came to his conclusions about diet by working with deep concretize dogs and he recommended a low calorie low carb die that included intermittent fasting. These and similar diets were so restrictive that they were often described as starvation diet. I have read some articles that say they were derisively called starvation diet, but no that's literally what people call them The matter of course, and here is how it works from the starvation treatment of diabetes, with a series of graduated diets used at the Massachusetts General Hospital which was published in nineteen sixteen and then that the texts incur
quotes for forty eight hours after admission to the hospital. The patient is kept on ordinary diet to determine the severity of his diabetes. Then he is starved and no food allowed save whiskey and black coffee. The whisky is given in the coffee one ounce of whisky, every two hours from seven, a m until seven p m. This furnishes roughly about eight hundred calories. The whisky is not an essential part of the treatment. It merely furnishes a few calories,
and keeps the patient more comfortable while he is being starved, was manual, recommends bullion or a clear soup. If whisky isn't desirable and recommends that the patient be given by carbonate of soda, if they show signs of acid doses and that's one of the potential complications of diabetes and which acid start to build up in the body, the starvation process continued until the patient's urine had no sugar in it, then food would be slowly. Reintroduced quote to the limit of tolerance in other, Doctors would gradually give patients more calories and carbohydrates each day until sugar reappeared in the urine, and then they would reduce that amount until it went away again. This particular publication includes case studies for several adults. Use diets were adjusted over a period of roughly one to two weeks,
as doctors figured out how many grams of carbohydrates they could consume every day, while still not having any sugar in their urine. Most of the patients wound up with diet that included between fifteen and fifty grams of carbohydrates per day between twenty five and sixty grams of protein and between hundred and fifty and two hundred grams of fat and that added up to a roughly two thousand calories diet on average. Among these adult patients type two diabetes is also associated with way, although, as we said earlier, it can develop and people regardless of their weight and in general, this manual recommends that adult patients lose weight. The approaching children was a little different, though reading from the same book quote, diabetes in children is likely to be a good deal more severe than it is in adults still in the few cases that have been treated with the starvation treatment at the children's hospital. The results have been very satisfactory as far as rendering the p
sugar free, is concerned most diabetic. Children, however, are thin and frail and they have no extra weight to lose. So it does not seem so desirable to
about any very great loss of weight, which is quite an essential part of the treatment, foremost adults. The few children that have been treated have borne starvation remarkably well, it is too early and we have seen too few children treated by this method to say what influence it may have on the course of the disease. But it can certainly be said that it is very efficacious in rendering them sugar free. So here's the daily food intake of a twelve year old girl he was admitted to the hospital nineteen fifteen after she went through the starvation process and then was discharged with a new diet, bacon for slices oatmeal, four Tablespoonfuls bread, one slice meet one ounce, cabbage five Tablespoonfuls Spinach, five tablespoonfuls string beans, five tablespoonfuls butter,
two ounces childs description of of her die and ends with the note quote a rather mild case, which responded readily to treatment. The question is: can she grow and develop on a diet which will keep her sugar free a six year?
Old boy was also discharged on this diet: string beans, three Tablespoonfuls Spinach, four tablespoonfuls bacon for slices butter, two ounces, eggs, three, bread, one: half slice, cereal, two tablespoonfuls meet three ounces. This particular book was written about patients who came to the hospital in nineteen fifteen and the book came out in nineteen sixteen, so it doesn't really include anyone's long term results or prognosis in terms of the children, though it does report one patient whose condition was critical when they arrived at the hospital and who died during the starvation period, as well as one who seem to be doing well but died suddenly, a few months after being discharged leave to children's diet that we just gave as examples totalled, one thousand five hundred ten calories for the first and one thousand four hundred too
lorries for the second, but, as we said at the top of the show, diet alone is not enough to control glucose levels and type one diabetes. These children's bodies needed insolent, but could not make it so over time. A lot of children who were on one of Alan's or Joscelyn diets were given fewer and fewer calories. Every day as they inevitably showed signs of sugar and their urine. Sometimes they would have like a full day fasting to try to reset their bodies. Patients were routinely on diet of eight hundred calories a day or less, with a day of total or near total fasting. If any glucose appeared in their urine sprained my heart signal of this limited calorie diet for kids, who need all of the nutrients that they could possibly get to grow and finish their bodies forming because
These were so restrictive. These diets were very hard for patients to maintain, even if they could and their ear and state free of glucose. The children's bodies in particular were experiencing other negative effects as a result of just not having enough nourishment. Basically, children were described as wasting away on these diets, which may have at best prolonged their lives. By a few months to a couple of years, they were often a may seated and weak and prone to infections, while their growth was delayed because they just weren't getting enough fishermen to simply survive and whether these diets actually did prolong their lives is not entirely clear. There are just so variables involved in type one diabetes, it's hard to say whether this works or not, and many doctors views these diets were a desperate effort to prolong children's lives. Just a little bit longer
with the hope that they would hang on long enough to see and benefit from the discovery of a more effective treatment and Joslyn words quote we literally star of the child, an adult with the faint hope that something new and treatment would appear. It was no fun to starve a child to let him live. That better treatment, though, was finally found in nineteen Twenty two and we're gonna talk about vat on the next episode, so that a sort of a cliffhanger, but also that means eyes time for listener mail It is time for a listener mail. This is from Dan and Dan wrote in to say I love the recent six impossible episodes podcast on civil actions. I actually gassed when you mentioned Julius, is I'm a journalist and frequently right about L, GB tissue history. Stone wall was a pivotal moment, but it so important to understand how much work was done, but
then I'm a sip. It is one of those key moments leading to the removal of the New York liquor boards ban on serving alcohol to homosexuals. But I'm writing because I wanted your readers to know that not only is Julius is still open, but it's a wonderful bar that welcomes everyone. It opened and eighteen sixties, and by the nineteen fifty is. It was widely known as a gay hang out popular with trimming, a pony, Tennessee Williams and rude off Maria of Theirs oppress, clipping from Walter Winchell on the wall, its largely the same as it was when the ship and happened with photos and memorabilia from that era. They have a monthly party machine named after the historic machine society. Unlike the Woolworth's lunch counters. Another venue,
Julius is one of the few places involved in America's civil rights struggle that still exists in its original form. Not is that a museum or a monument, but as a living breathing space for community celebration and joy, I urge anyone coming to New York to hop down to the village to visit this one of a kind watering hole their burgers are to die for thanks for all, you do sincerely ban. Thank you so much Dan for writing. I, of course, did not have all of this detail in the outlying ever, but I did at one point: have that, like the Julius is still open, and it welcomes everyone now, as opposed to sort of what happened on the day with the managing societies have been, but that six impossible episodes felt like it was getting quite long, and I made some cuts for linked than that was one of the details that was sadly cut out. So, thank you so much Dan for writing it in giving me the chance to add that today. If you would like to write to us about this or any other pod cast we're a history podcast, I hurt radio dot com and then you'll also find us all over social needs.
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