Tracy and Holly discuss Tracy's research on Operation Paperclip and how recently information about it has been uncovered. After talking about taking some time off, Tracy also shares how she selected the Paperclippers to focus on for Wednesday's episode.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Having frank, I'm crazy. Well then, I'm howling frying weekly talked about project paperclip, also known as operation paperclip
and we have once again come to those one of those points whereby the time people here this behind the scenes, this issue will be totally solved, but at the moment, if a little bit of a mystery
when I will get the episode about some specific scientists and engineers and other specialists who are part of this programme done I've it'll, probably the next episode but number one
my second covert vaccine tomorrow we'll do you and
you're gonna take a break with the shows not taking a break right buried to you won't even know we're not here, but right have back filled and made sure we have new episodes ready to go yeah. It just means that I dont want to pay
now that the next, the literal, a second half of this attitude MA. Am I happy about project paperclip scientists.
Yeah really did become clear to me about three o clock yesterday afternoon. All this is not going just be one episode it's gonna have to be too, and, unlike normally, when I'm doing a two part, something both parts are not already written. Only one of them is. It happens once in a while. I read two different books as part of
this research. So, in addition to all the books that we mention at the very end of the episode that were,
written in their like this seventies. Eightys and ninetys
I also read any Jacob sins operation, paperclip the secret intelligence program that brought Nazis scientists to America that came out in twenty fourteen, and I also read raw Brian Krim
our Germans project, paperclip and the national Security state, and that came out in twenty eighteen and both of those books were really possible but
So much information about all of this has been declassified in the years since the first books about it were written. So people who wants
research. This have a lot more available information now than before. Also, as
I was reading, particularly any Jacobson speck, because she profiles a lot of the specific scientists who were really the most notorious. There are a lot of just horrific atrocity
that some of the people who either made their way to the? U S or were considered to be brought to the. U S were involved in yeah, it's
little bit mind boggling. I know for me, even though I have have known that this was an ongoing thing. I still have those moments where I go we're still
cover yeah, this
far later, especially, I think it feels especially surprise
using because there has been so
Scholarship around were war to post world war to all of these things, and yet we continue.
To have new information appear, and we have to continue to acknowledge that some information is gone. Gas, which is just a little bit tricky to wrap one's head around. I think yeah yeah, the mental gymnastics, even at the time that the people involved with planet
programme, had declined to go through to the move from the idea of will interview and work with people, while they're still in Germany, too, will bring people to the? U S. For a temporary like let's say six month, contract they will
supervised and a no go back in Germany and then to go from that to these scientists can get american citizen ship, basically taking up spots or getting magical new spots that could have been given to somebody who had been displaced by the war. Somebody who had survived the Holocaust aid
I don't know, sometimes people get mad and we say our personal opinions on the show. My personal opinion is whatever national courage, security concern that was used to justify
was not enough lake. There were other choices that could have been made yet solicitor of a weird thing. It's also a good
I'm an over the good reminder. It's a reminder to me that you know
every big thing, whether it is a conspiracy or a great movement or any any other,
watershed event or or organization in history. Is composed of a bunch of humans?
or fallible, and who can talk themselves into things that they serve
intellectually might know they should not, but somehow
logically were able to get over some fairly weird barriers at Times NEA Atossa, a difficult thing to try to put yourself in that had spaces.
I dont know how do you get to know? I think it's ok. This guy is important enough that, even though he's horrible, we want him on our side what, but it's happened many times. So we know that, like that, that mental shift can happen for people that we might consider very smart and well thinking
It's always that's where it gets really murky and slightly terrifying for me there, because I, like I'm, not always well thinking what am I capable of Brian yeah, most likely the literal next thing people are gonna hear right now is more on the same subject wealthy. We shall see so when we left off,
previous half of this behind the scenes we weren't sure what was coming next and it was like it might be, an episode on people who were involved in opera
you're paperclip, but we don't really now and were both gonna take a week off. We have now had a week off and the mystery is solved within it.
But you didn't. They follow the previous episode operation paperclip, with an episode on for people who were part of it, which is just a whole weird thing, and it
ways. It's always weird. When we have a weak. Often we come back to look at things that we started working on before we left its particularly
geared to do that and then also have an earlier episode that is already recorded and is connected to the thing that we took on a week off yeah middle working on now.
It's also just we are to take a week off at this point. Right I mean yeah.
Finally, I am my week off with
Thirdly, a week dedicated to doing things I just haven't, had the capacity to do while also working so like thoroughly cleaning the Kitchen Bertha nice calling to make appointments for things that needs to be done around our house. Things like that see. I'm I went to Disneyworld once we once we hit fully vaccinated status,
felt: ok going yeah, you are fully vaccinated and as if we are recording us, I will be fully vaccinated tomorrow, lighting it is its
Kelly Ban. It's kind of funny
we have talked about it. My husband and I like. Ok, we are
being. A trip may
be once we reach fully vaccinated status in that that brief time,
between when were fully vaccinated. When we leave, we should like go out and test the water
ray. We should go to a restaurant. We should make
just go to like a mall in work around and see about feels, because this is lake.
That meeting I even with reduced capacity they're doing we kind of
little afraid and built in for ourselves. If we get therein were there for two days and we freak out, we concur.
Home and it's ok. Italy will yeah the current amount.
We didn't get around to doing any of that, because we had a lot of other stuff coming up and lake. As you know, any time you're trying to get ready to go on vacation
getting a million work thing squared away. So we didn't say it was a little bit of like hears the deep end, but it was lovely. I had to give Disneyworld some
those because they are for the for the most part. In our experience they are definitely enforcing
asking guidelines then, and distant saying the weather handling cues for rides. I I hope they do it forever, captured it p.
Cramming up against each other in a much more enjoyable expect breaking a ass, a witch
a later fair than are are show this week or so the speakers
lighter fair at all, and it was a tough when so work. I'm not just because of the horrific aspects of of
happens in Nazi Germany and German occupied territories during World WAR Ii, like that, in addition to that sort of reading about these horrific things, a lot of the information, a vow all of this is just
really spread out and among all of these different sources and so sort of piecing things together and confirming things was more
time consuming and and unwieldy you than it often is white. Bear it like. I like. We set an episode itself like there's. A ton of info.
Nation above or in IRAN Brown. Some of it doesn't reference the fact that there are any questions about his nazi involvement at all, which is a little weird but like there's a ton of it, but for the other folks that we talked about there is just took a lot more digging and cross referencing to try to make sure that I had everything right and sit like reference back to primary documents as much as possible. There was, it was all kind of a tangle and deciding which people to talk about also kind of a challenge. I knew. Obviously I was gonna talk about Verna run Brown like that was a given from them,
meaning but like deciding which other people to talk about on the show is low. Trickier yeah, I mean users are those things where I I can't help. I kin
waste shut down my leg- I don't know if it's an empathy,
an answer wet, but, like I just I can't I can't read my headroom how people can do some of the things that were done in it that we talked about and like still sleep at night, so it's
It's hard was most of your process of elimination to select the ones that we talked about about
level of available information, or did you edit lake to try to keep it balanced and not to horrific, but
still indicative of the situation,
I wanted to provide some more detail about some of the facts that we had talked about in the operation, paperclip episode, so that that was a deciding factor,
availability of information was also a factor because in some cases it was like here is just a paragraph of this person and what they were suspected of and what they did as part of operation. Paperclip and dislike wasn't really enough to really explain or give contacts. It was sort of like yours for sentences of something
up. I am I really went back and forth about Hubert is as struggled because he I feel like hat. He has some some question marks and there are a lot of folks who are just absolutely convinced.
He was directly involved with, or at least new extreme details about, allergies, experiments and that, as a result, he should just sort of be stricken from the otter. Is unaware
that that he earned during his has clear, and then there are other people who were like. All of this is really circumstantial. Some of the things some of the facts that have written a bow him have like, as I said, an episode conflated, multiple different german.
Institute says one thing when it seems like they were not actually operating that way, but then also like his, but the fact that he has continued to be.
Removed from the names of honour. Is that our words and things like that, but something that has continued to be discussed in so like the last five years. So I felt like I couldn't just skip over him because I felt like I had the least clear opinion about what has involvement actually was by the
I was done, researching it. What becomes in a good indicator right of the complexity of unfurling? All of this particularly
We know that a lot of things have been edited stricken from the record redeem
did, etc. His case
bank really is like a set. It makes a good example of like this is not easy history to pull apart.
I think, for a lot of us would really like to believe
that had we been alive in Germany and the nineteen thirty use, if we were basically told your going to join the Nazi Party or you're gonna like beyond the list of people who are gonna, be targeted ray, I think a lot of us like say,
in our twenty twenty one safe, is in quotation marks. Twenty twenty one is that that safe for a lot of people but like-
A lot of us want to believe that the best and ourselves that we would be like
I'm never joining the Nazi party you're just going to have to kill me and like the reality, is that that's not the decision that a lot of people wine making ray, and so it's like,
It seems likely to me that yeah, probably there were a lot of people that came through operation paperclip, who had basically been like I'm signing. My name to this
the paper so that my family and I have a chance of surviving this war and they had
Oh no other involvement in the Nazi Party really but like there were definite
a lot of others. You were either
involved in or or highly complicit in horrific, horrific things
Some of these were never get to know the truth alike,
no one ever going to know the truth.
Which is always a hard thing to accept right. I feel like that is a downer place to end this week's behind the scenes,
that's history as a downer, sometimes Villiers whenever we say that
get people. You email us too, to let us know that they now that yes, history is often horrific, imparts, so think. The next thing I work on, I will try to pick something that is a little less heretical appear. So you'd like to write it.
For history. Podcast that I heard radioed were also on social media outlets than history. Whatever is coming up for folks as weekends, I hoped that says, pleasant unrestful as possible if you're working again. I hope everyone is great to you at your job and we'll be back
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Transcript generated on 2021-07-03.