Roughly 122,000 Japanese immigrants and American citizens of Japanese ancestry were removed from their homes on the West Coast and incarcerated for much of the U.S. involvement in WWII. About two-thirds of them were U.S. citizens.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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its executive order. Ninety sixty six and the removal of japanese Americans two camps that followed it during world war, two executive order. Ninety sixty six was signed, the on February, nineteenth of nineteen forty two, so we are coming up immediately on the seventy fifth anniversary that will be. This is broadcast, are coming Wednesday Monday in Wednesday, and then this weekend, as when that anniversary takes place, these events are most associated with japanese nationals and japanese american citizens and executive order. Ninety sixty six was framed specifically to target japanese emigrants and their citizen children, although it did not specifically mention any nationality at the same time, about three thousand how and about eleven thousand Germans or also incarcerated, but this was actually under the terms of the alien and sedition acts which were a whole different
laws and much much older as an hundreds of years older and these in facilities that were overseen by the Department of Justice. Rather, the the These are my vote, was overseen by the Department of WAR, most of the Italians and Germans, who incarcerated were citizens of ITALY or Germany and were classified as enemy alien spit Some were also: U S: citizens, including family members, and a lot of times evidence used to justify US incarceration was to non existent or even made up roughly a hundred and twenty two thousand japanese emigrants. American citizens of japanese ancestry were removed from their homes on the West Coast M incarcerated for much of the union states, involvement in world war, two says: roughly: two thirds of them were United States citizens, and this was effectively the whole Japanese
east and west of the Sierra Nevada mountains. With the exception of Hawaii, we are going to tackle the story in two parts. As I alluded you earlier in today's episode are going to talk about the historical context, including an overview of the history of emigration to the United States from Japan and how the United States government decided that in turning based on their nationality, was in the country's best interests. Then, next time we will get into the details of the incarceration of themselves and then how they were challenged at the time and what happened when they were over. Discussions of exit. Order nine, zero, six, six and the resulting incarceration, often start with the bombing of the. U S naval base at Pearl, Harbor Hawaii by the japanese empire, which launched the United States entry into a war to that attack came on December seventh of nineteen forty one
which was a Sunday morning and many of the military personnel station. There were at church leaving the base short staff to muster a defence, although it had seemed quite likely that some kind of attack with eminent what actually did happen still caught the nation completely off guard. It was tat firing and stunning more than two thousand Americans were killed in surprise attack and more than a thousand more were injured. The nations Pacific Fleet was almost destroyed the following day, a joint session of Congress approved a resolution declaring war on Japan, Japanese now those in the United States and american citizens of japanese descent, who, at all we ve been subject to prejudice and discrimination soon fell enormous suspicion. So a lot of times we basically described as Japan, bombed Pearl Harbor and then the United States in turn. Japan is people bet
The events that led to this order go way back farther than Pearl Harbor and their tied to the overall history of japanese emigration to the United States in the middle of the seventeen sanctuary of a nation of Japan was ruled by the token Kiowa Shogunate It adopted isolationist policies and had very little contact with Europe or european colonies for more than two centuries that changed in eighteen. Fifty three, when Commodore Matthew, Perry and his fleet arrived in Tokyo, harbour an essentially forced Japan's. You begin trading with ease it states the next few years brought massive changes to Japan. Its agreement to trade with the United States had been released, and under duress, but that agreement opened the door to trade with other nations as well A newly introduced stream of goods and cultural influences from the west brought rapid changes to Japan, ultimately contributing you're revolution that ended the feudal shogunate and returned empty, rule this return,
imperial governance, known as the major restoration took place in eighteen. Sixty eight after the Maisie Restoration Life in Japan. Continued to change. Incredibly rapid with urbanization and been industrial evasion leading suggests an income loss, especially among agricultural workers. A new found stream of foreign imports also meant that Japan labourers and craftspeople they were facing increasing competition for work, at first, the japanese government restricted emigration out of the country, especially after the illegal recruitment of one hundred and fifty japanese citizens to work laborers on an american own sugar Plantation in the then independently, of Hawaii, but in eighteen, eighty five. the japanese government started actively working with other nations, including Hawaii, to send japanese citizens to work as contract laborers initially they would work abroad for a few years before returning home to Japan. Some went abroad
on another contract after returning home from their first one. At about this same time, you It states immigration law changed in such a way that recruiting labour on Japan became a much higher priority until the late nineteenth century. The United States had very few laws governing immigration for the most part. If you could get to the United States or its territory, you could stay, but that changed in eighteen. Eighty, two just fourteen years after the major western and with the chinese exclusion ACT. Although other acts with a mirror focus came before it, the chinese Exclusion ACT was the nations first Major, significantly restricting immigration it was signed in the law by president chest. A Arthur and, as its name suggests, banned, all immigration from China to the United States. It also prohibited chinese they were in the United States from becoming citizens. This act came about in part because of high rates of unemployment and low wages.
chinese labor had been a really important part of the gold rush of eighteen, forty, nine and the building of the Trans Continental Railroad, but once the rush was over and the railroad was complete, the chinese community started taking the blame for a job shortage and low pay for particularly in the western and northwest states. additionally, chinese people were viewed as undesirable by the way community, and at least some proponents of the exclusion law were motivated by a perceived threat to their racial purity aim to put it in context. It was also in this same general time period that many, U S, states were passing increasingly stew in time, assassination laws outlawing interracial marriage, no chinese immigrants had become economic scapegoats, banning emigration from China, cut off and actually needed, source of labour, and one way to bridge that gap was with emigrants from Japan who were not subject to the chinese Exclusion ACT
so just as the United States began to need additional workers. Japan also began to view working in the United States as an opportunity for wealth and status and were about to talk what happened when japanese immigration to the Eu S started in earnest, but before we get into that, we're gonna take a little break and paused. For a word from one of our faintest sponsors, potty cleared out my whole data LISA Car the whole day yeah. First, we need to study. I have some flashcards here to go. Releasing vocabulary. Cyclists me costs money, factors, disposition, faith, You do not need to know that still leaves a car, but I got a negotiated good deal care like this. It's the roadmap you go through and take the car you want. Then they give you a tailor. Price is crystal clear. They ve already applied discounts, negotiated a low rate and included all taxes and pleased. Then they deliver the car to your house both. But what about the acquisition?
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all other Asians could not become citizens. Most of these japanese immigrants drive between one thousand eight hundred and ninety eight and one thousand nine hundred and twenty four, during which time the? U dot S, passed a number of other immigration laws. Along with the so called gentlemen's agreement with Japan, japanese immigrants had started to face the same prejudices. Chinese immigrants had before them, and the gentlemen's agreement was meant to reduce the number of japanese We're coming to the United States is limited entry to people who had already been in the United States before, and the families of japanese nationals currently living in the United States. The reasons agonies emigrants effectively stopped coming and nineteen twenty four will. The Johnson Red ACT also known as the immigration ACT of nineteen twenty four, this act the number of new emigrants from each nation at two percent of the people from that nation.
We're already living in the United States as of the eighteen ninety census, but also specified that any group prohibited from becoming citizens also could not enter the United States, and that meant that japanese emigrants who had been exempt from prior immigration laws that targeted other Asians, no longer emigrate to United States because they were legally and eligible to become citizens from the start of japanese immigration to the United States to the immigration ACT of nineteen. Twenty four: most japanese images: settled in the West Coast or in Hawaii. Hawaii had been an independent nation at the start of japanese immigration, but became a U s: territory in eighteen. Ninety eight, after United States, business interests aided by american military, overthrew its monarchy in eighteen. Ninety three that sentence made you go, I'm sorry what codes you missed in his
dot com, slash tags, Slash Hawaii following the same pattern as other immigrant groups: japanese people generally huddled, together, informed communities, but it was This is a matter of shared connections culturally or wanting to live near other people who speak the same language, though in many cases discriminatory, housing and lending policies, forced japanese emigrants define homes and to start businesses only in specific neighborhoods. In some cases, law prevented any one who was not eligible to become a citizen which japanese emigrants could not do from buying property. And if you want to learn more about that, you can go to miss than history. Doc. Arms lashed tag, slash red lining
so by the beginning of world war to the West Coast of the United States was dotted with japanese communities with their own schools and houses of worship and successful businesses owned and run by japanese proprietors. Since the Johnson Red ACT had cut off immigration from Japan in nineteen. Twenty four japanese immigrants to the United States had really been in the nation for more than fifteen years. Hawaii also had a large japanese population larger, in fact than the sum total of all of the japanese population on the entire West Coast. Many These communities, worse, socially and economically, thriving for apple about half of the japanese residents of the West Coast where farmers, japanese own farms, made up about four percent of California Farmland, but they produce more than ten percent of the total value of the state's farm industry and forty percent of its produce production. Although japanese immigrants had been legally prohibited from
being citizens birthright, citizen shipment of their children, born in the? U S, worst, citizens automatically so by nineteen. Forty one. These neighborhoods tended to be a combination of essay or first generation. Immigrants born in Japan and me say who had been born to japanese immigrants, but were american citizens by birth included, among the knee say, were key bay who were born in the United States, but had been educated in Japan. All of this final aim thus to the United States response to the bombing of Pearl harbor. The entire run up to world were too and the? U S. Involvement in it could be at least and help us out all of its own, possibly more than one. So, incredibly, incredibly briefly, Angela, seven nineteen, thirty seven Japan invaded China and answer and were first nineteen thirty, nine Germany under the rule of out of Hitler invaded Poland, Great Britain and France declared war.
On Germany on September, the third of that year and then over the next year, more and more nations either invaded or declared war again. This is not a remotely comprehensive sum up of the beginning of world war. Two And although the United States had offered weapons and aid to Britain and other allies in it also tried to not get directly involved with the conflict as a general trend, the public both wanted Britain and its allies to win the war, but did not want american troops being deployed to foreign soil to fight on behalf of other nations. A number of organizations stridently advocated for staying out of the conflict in Gaza the America First Committee, which was motivated both by isolationism and at least by some of its members, Anti Semitism. Japan
jack on Pearl Harbor was an attempt to destroy United States military forces in the Pacific, with the hope that doing so would prevent the United States from intervening against Japan in Asia and the Pacific islands. While the attack did do significant damage to the United States Pacific fleets, ass though it accomplished that part of the objective, it was also what finally prompted the United States to enter the war, which was not really a surprise, but the destruction of the fleet had not been total enough to actually keep the United States from than intervening in Asia, Pacific Pacific, while initial
Ports of the bombing in the? U S were often horrified and angry at first, there were also a number of appeals for calm. First lady Eleanor Roosevelt went to LOS Angeles on December eleven to meet with japanese american women and, upon returning to Washington on December sixteenth, she wrote the following in her syndicated column, which was called my day quote. Perhaps it is the test which is going to show whether the United States can furnish a pattern for the rest of the world for our future. Our citizens come from all the nations of the world. Some of us have said from time to time that we were the only proof that different nationalities could live together in peace and understanding each bringing his own contribution, different though it may be to the final unity which is the United States. She went on to write that the United States needed to quote furnish the pattern for the rest of the world living together in peace and to say that if the United States could not guarantee,
the freedoms of the bill of rights to all of its people, keeping in czech Anti semitic, anti racial and anti religious feelings, then quote we shall have removed from the world the one real hope for the future on which all humanity must now rely. Meanwhile, the japanese american community was, on the whole vocally supportive of the United States and spoke out stridently against the attack in raffish, impose the largest japanese language newspaper in the United States, an editorial published in its first issue after Pearl Harbor spoke against the japanese empire and its actions. Japan started this war, it read, and it is now up to the United States to end the war by crushing the japanese empire.
Her ruthless, barbaric leaders. However, this appeal for calm and acceptance overall did not last for very long and we'll talk about the first actions against japanese Americans after another quick sponsor break. hello, obeyed I thought you weren't leasing apparent today sounds like you're at football me yeah. Why use rodeo Louise the car? You know it's not up. I was telling you about. We can choose from hundreds of local cars right from your phone. Ok and the price is Crystal clear. All taxes and geezer included discounts negotiated then deliver the car to your house and its watching the game. While I pick a car, so let me get this straight. You are all the world aware police car and it was so easy you figured by catch football. See you understand, I gotta go export down and anticipating between Sudan or hatch back
welcome to the future of car leasing on the road or you can choose from hundreds of cars right in your area. We give you crystal clear pricing, many discounts, taxes in fees, will even dry Cartier House. It's easy, it's clear, its roto in spite of the initial appeals, not to blame. Japanese Americans for the actions of the japanese Empire, the United States government take immediate action against the number of people who were believed to be a threat, in the first few days after Pearl harbor about three thousand foreign nationals were arrested under suspicion of being dangerous enemy aliens, and a lot of these arrests were based on list that had already been compiled, census records and the FBI about half of the people in this first wave of arrests or japanese emigrants they,
it's a prison camps and jails around the United States and in general, their families had no idea where they had been taken. Enemy aliens bank accounts were also for. In many areas, travel restrictions in curfews were implemented, and it is kind of a site an enemy alien, as is the person living in a nation that at war with their actual emission of citizenship. Overwhelmingly the people caught up in this first sweep had done absolutely nothing wrong. They were religious or civic leaders in the japanese community, including priests, teachers and leaders of organizations like the Japanese can citizens league some just owned a boat or a radio and or had donated to a japanese community organization? In the weeks after Pearl Harbor public opinion turned increasingly against japanese Americans fear of a fifth TK
I M a Japanese Americans lying in wait to secretly work against american interests swept through the government and the population at large, and the government became increasingly focused on how to handle this perceived threat really widespread Theodore Geisler, better known as Doktor Seuss drew Anti Japanese anti german cartoons during the war, including one that showed throngs of offensively caricature, japanese people, picking up blocks, Tim tea out a little hut marked honourable fifth column under a caption quote waiting for the signal from home, and it wasn't just japanese immigrants who were the term, it was their children born in the U S as well, and attitudes in the early times summed up what was the increasingly prevailing view quote. A viper is nonetheless a viper. Wherever the egg is hatched,
so a japanese American born of japanese parents grows up to be a Japanese. Not an american within government there was general agreement that at least some people of japanese ancestor. They were dangerous and needed to be incarcerated, although they were both voices both for and against doing this on a massive scale, Curtis be Munson. Who was one of President Franklin, Delano, Roosevelt spies, wrote a report to the president that between ninety and ninety eight percent of me say we're completely loyal to the United States, with the exception of those who had been educated in Japan, Lieutenant Commander Kenneth Ringle of the Office of Naval intelligence had uncovered real japanese espionage efforts.
But his recommendation was also that not all japanese American should be targeted in his estimate. Was that at least three quarters of second generation Japanese Americans were actively loyal to the United States and that most of their parents were passively loyal. The only group he advocated investigating on mass, where the key bay who had returned to Japan for their education, specially at first. The justice department was generally opposed to the idea of a mass incarceration on the grounds that it was unconstitutional There are many many many parts of the constitution that this did directly. wait for this is not an unreasonable suspicion. This included Edward J, and ass. A lawyer with the Justice Department, the FBI's J Edgar Hoover and Attorney General Frances Biddle battle. Not only thought the incarceration of citizens without cause was unconstitutional buddy, so thought a much bigger threat was german and italian nationals on the EAST coast, especially given
that's two american shipping and passenger lanes in the Atlantic, one of the loudest voices in ever of mass incarceration was Lieutenant General John L de Witt of the U S army. He was at the time headquarters in San Francisco in his office, sent seemingly continual reports of aggressive japanese activity. In the days after December, seventh, there were reports of bombings, sightings of entire japanese fleets, air raids, japanese American, first ploughing signals into their fields, signal players at sea, mystery rate. Our echoes, strange radio transmissions on and on, and none of these turned out to be legitimate other voice in favour of a mass incarceration was Earl Warren, who was at the time California's attorney general and his support for a mass removal, would ultimately help him. When the governorship have side note, he would also later become that Justice of an incredibly civil
its minded Supreme Court that ruled on things like Brown, verse, born and loving verses Virginia, and he never spoke about this during his lifetime. but a number of biographers and historians and me feel like the incredibly progressive stance that his Supreme Court took especially in terms of things like civil rights and civil liberties was atonement for this. Like him, he wrote one sentence about it in his autobiography or his memoir or whatever you want to call it. That was just basically expressing remorse and during an oral history project, he broke down so hard when asked about it that, like they had to stop the interview and to me, it is a completely logical step from their that, like all the work that the worrying that the warring court did when he was, the chief justice was like to make up
For having supported this will. Certainly I mean it's not like a big leap of logic. It. It makes a lot of sense, given his behaviour in those movements and ass time, passed public and political opinion turned increasingly in favour of a mass incarceration of japanese Americans. Some of this was fuelled by the media. More than once, for example, american planes in ships spotted from a distance were mistaken for a japanese attack, fleet and newspapers. hoarded on them before it became clear that there was absolutely no threat because of inaccurate news reports and a generally heightened sense of panic by the time a job. please submarine really did torpedo and think the? U S, S Monticello, which was a union oil tanker on December. Twenty third of nineteen, forty one non Japanese Americans, particularly on the West Coast, had already felt like had been under attack by Japan for weeks. The coastguard censored the news of this and to
actually for real torpedoed american vessels. But officials knew that, if word got out, there would be a huge outcry and possibly violence against the japanese community Rapidly? The? U S, government and law enforcement stepped up, its targeting of japanese Americans. Arrests became more widespread and law enforcement started, reporting that they had confiscated huge numbers of weapons from japanese residence, leaving out the fact that most of these had come from japanese owned sporting goods stores on January fourteenth. Nineteen forty to the place of ill times published the first public call for Jappy is Americans to be placed in concentration camps. Today, the curb the term concentration camp has become nearly synonymous with the holocaust by camps like outfits ensure blinker, which were built for the purpose of killing the people imprisoned. There are more properly called death camps or extermination camps
The word concentration camp, on the other hand, was coined in eighteen. Ninety seven and it comes from the cuban war of independence. It simply means a camp where a large number of people, particularly political prisoner or racial or ethnic minorities are to be imprisoned, often without adequate facilities and sometimes also being forced into labour generally during wartime, so the camps that soon came into existence in the United States, which are euphemistically called relocation centres or internment camps, were by definition much more properly called concentration camps. Other newspapers soon followed with a call for concentration camps, comparing japanese Americans to rats and other vermin portraying them his thieves and spies, waiting to rise up and overthrow the whole of the west.
Soon public sentiment, was overwhelmingly in favour of a mass removal of all Japanese Americans from the West Coast to be incarcerated for the duration of the war Finally, the United States government did plan a massive removal of japanese Americans from the West Coast and construction of camps where they would be incarcerated, which is where we will pick up next time. Ok, Tracy so were headed into very depressing territory, but do you in the meantime have listener? May do you have listener mail? It is from Emily and it is based on or in research. To our at Mona Louis episode, which you actually researched, I wanted to read it after having a conversation on Twitter with a listener named Margaret on a very similar us, like train of thought
and Emily says my name is Emily. When I'm an artist and art student in Toronto, Canada, I'm currently finishing my undergraduate thesis with a particular emphasis on queer art history. I just wanted to say I love you. Had cast and really enjoy hearing about all areas of history, but especially love the art, historical episodes, as you may all, because I really appreciate that you mentioned the consideration, however vague of Mono Louis sexuality, and I use that a lot of eligibility Q groups claim her as a queer historical figure without any real evidence or expression. On her part, I understand This is not the usual historical practice but thought that from an elderly, BT, Q and art perspective, I might be able to shed some light on idea in queer history.
Robin working with very little information on whether or not to include a figure insecure history. I find this issue is sometimes more difficult in queer art history, because many historians and academics actively avoid the subject or work to make excuses. Against queer thing aims and artwork or events in the artists life. However, I've been here for the last three years. I B is of clearing art history have amidst a stirrup figures. There is no obvious label for exact historical record of their own. Kennedy, so we often described what we can about them in Louis his case. She was a woman at an artist who live outside of the confines of the role of women in her day did not marry. She had her own success career and made a name for herself and attack. When women were not expected to be independent, she also lived and worked. at other women who were artists, a community for themselves all these things, would consider, and so would queer theory a Queer act
at Mono Louis Lip outside hetero, normative eighty. So, despite her ambiguous sexuality, she will always be a queer artist as a queer artist. sl. I always hope for undeniable proof of queer people in history. But those moments are and highly debated so overtime. I've come to accept that there's who would queer lives are in many ways enough representation. Thank you for all your work. Emily P S. Feel free to share this email on the pod cast. If you like, we are indeed serious email, I'm a pike s. Thank you so much Emily and thank you also Margaret. You talk to me on Twitter with weird, so I I feel, like Emma and we were saying the same basic thing, but not in the same words at ah you and I have talked about before on the show in prior
doubts about how important it is to both of us to have representation of people from all across the spectrum of human experience, and we are resistant, civil labeling people with like a specific orientation when there are things that are unclear for a lot of different reasons, and one of them is that the language people have used to talk about their own identity has changed radically just yours in my lifetime, just in the last decade, yeah so like I know when I was twenty the way people.
Aimed their own experience in the world, especially regarding gender and sexual orientation, was incredibly different from how people do you now, and I really think this will continue to be the case, especially if the arc of society keeps bending toward more acceptance of people like all across the spectrum. So it's really important to both of us to talk about and acknowledge the nuances of people's lives and also important, not simply give someone a specific label when we don't know how they would have described themselves, which was the case with Albania Louis. I do like the fact that Emily wrote to us herself to talk about a queer art theory, because when I was in college, Queer theory was really in its infancy, total infancy and, I think, has become a much broader, ah set of ideas and
we'll widely accepted term. But it's not a term. We have used on the pod cast a lot because it is brand new to a lot of people who are not like within that community. The and I will admit there is also a certain degree to which we were talking about people that perhaps would fit into different a glories. Now that didn't even exists, then I also wonder if, in five years,. Whatever we were to say on. The podcast now would also seem completely lake incorrect and out of step. Oh yeah, as we continue to rapidly evolving, and so I'd part of my reluctance is that I don't the irish shifting linguistic landscape at the moment, yeah When I think about the first episodes of trans history that we did yeah, which, like I did talk to trans people in my life, about while trying to figure out how to best make decisions about how to
Discuss people's lives. There are things I absolutely would never have said or gotten into if we were redoing those episodes now and that was only three years before Well, I mean I'm now those discussions that having nothing to do anything made for public consumption like upon cast that happen among my friends just casually words like man. We never would have talked about this. This way Yeah I've. If we were having this conversation now that we had lake at that party here in that class, or in so I mean it's, it's were all evolving understandings, throw this training rapidly in terms of all of our understandings of gender and sexual orientation. I say all of our in a very well
way. I know there are books you who resist the idea that there is a fluid he engender and sexual orientation, but like from our point of view as a pod cast, there is a whole huge spectrum to talk about that does a lot of times not easily pigeonholed into a particular label yet, and when I talk about, like you know within my friend group, having those discussions under any but a pretty diverse, for roof in terms of gender and sexuality like there are people that idea I in ways that they acknowledge didn't exist several years ago, even more they identified in a way several years ago that they now feel is not a smart way to identify or that it's you know not an accurate representation of them. So I mean, I think we are all having this conversation in it. It moves very quickly, and so I'm always part of it to you is that I am always keenly aware of my we need to put my foot my mouth a meeting
you know. I certainly don't want to ever known it make any One feel like their situation, is degraded or looked down upon or not respected, even the most basic level. Sad, its that's part of why we dont tend to start assigning things to rights, east people who cannot be part of this conversation yeah and in my twitter conversation with Margaret one of the things I talked about was how I I I like words like like queer that are more brightly inclusive of more different types of orientations and genders and all of that, but I also feel like the world the word queer The word is still like very early in its life of being reclaimed, Roma view here, an active slur to word that is ok for people to use any non slur context, which is one of the reasons that I've been reluctance. It does put that out there on the
cast so anyway. Thank you, so so so much Emily. Thank you. So so much Margaret for talking to me on twitter thing It affects you have written in with very thoughts about at Mony Louis. We definitely do no said she was a Google dude. We know a lot of time. I don't know about you, but my home pages, Google, because I use it so much. I in my work, so I generally see usually goes right away anyway. If you would like to write to us about this, are neither passport history, pike ass. It has to fork stuck up rules on Facebook at Facebook, Dotcom, Slash, missed in history and on Twitter. It miss in history, are tumblr miss than history, dot, tumblr, dot, com or also pinterest at Paris accomplish missed in history, our instagram, as it must in history, have some think about it for a minute, if you can't comes european companies website with this house, supports that calm you.
All kinds of information about whatever your heart desires than you can also come to our website, which is missing, history, dot com and you will find show notes, Brody upset. I haven't worked on and an archive of every single episode. Ever you will find episode Talking about that american business interests overthrew. The a moderately for example, all that and a lot more and health at work that calm Burma's history more on this and thousands of other topics, because it has to work stock, hey, listen, I wanted to tell you about a new podcast from my heart radio called the women hosted by rose red. It is fascinating and
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