The U.S. is, at its heart, a nation of immigrants. The Lower East Side Tenement Museum works to preserve the history of many families who left their home countries to start lives in New York. Read the show notes here.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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continued. You missed in history has worked. I come from. I will not go into the pond manhandling fry and I'm Tracy Wilson and today we're gonna do something a little bit knew at least new sums tracy and I have been on the pact have passed, hosts, have featured interviews with people with interesting historical stories detail. But this is our first go around on this one so event and not long ago, that we wanted to cover a few museums and talk about their history and today were sharing the first of a two part or it's an interview with Doktor Annie, Poland of the Lower east side, Tenement museum, Particular subject came up not long after we had mentioned during a recording that we wanted to start telling stories about museums at some point,
and so we got really excited about this amazingly layered history to the Tenement Museum and that the building there, as well as its incredible mission, to preserve and present the stories of immigrants, but in many ways, sort of tell the story of the: U S as an immigrant nation, so we're going Right into that energy, so today we have with us after any pollen, too is the senior vice president for programmes in education at the lower inside tenement museums that I could allow correct. Yet you get perfect, and this is such an incredibly cool museum space with such a really fabulous sort of history of its own, and there are so many wonderful stories connected to it that we're just gonna jump right in and kind of get the full scoop on this route. wonderful historical landmark, so first off any. Will you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you ended up in your position at the tenement museum?
I think what brought me here with what brought me to any lacks, I came to New York, uneasily study history, and when I got my ph d, in history at Columbia, University and while I was there working on my coursework and my The case, then, I got a job with a company called big onion walking towards what is a wonderful company that organise its historical walking where the many New York neighborhoods. So I started working for that, many and I gave the first assignment that I had was to work on the lower excite work and it was actually run in conjunction with the lower. If I'd Tenement museum till I came, and at this point it was like the late. Ninety I came down to give tour and tour actually looking right now at the window at the corner, where I started which his right across the street from the Tenement Museum and it was such a wonderful experience to walk through the city,
the buildings and be able to tell their history, and I think that combination of history, the built environment and the enthusiasm of the people on the tour made me realize how important public history was. So I finish modification and I enjoyed that research, but knew that what I? We wanted to do was rather than working and academic setting work in a place where history could come to life and in the end, in a place like a kind of fear history with many more people than I would if I had stayed in an academic track. More effect. Tenement museum, of course, is a perfect place to do. because the history so the red, its Laird, it works on the built environment and in attacks, so many people from outside the country in the world that really the perfect place for me in many ways. So story is like in your heart. That's your whole background. Yeah yeah exactly love it. and the museum itself is really the brainchild of one woman, although many hands of course gone into making it sort of
credible resource. It is today you tell us a little bit about Ruth a Bremen how she came to develop this concept, Sir, I mean about I'm I'll. Tell you Polly what other people you know it. I told you I wasn't here when the museum got started in nineteen. Eighty, eight, though, what I'm telling you in some ways is the universe. The founding story that I've been told by he really was really is a remarkable woman and she actually and a colleague, Anita Jacob Thin, were the two women that we consider the founders of the museum, I'm they were working together and they were looking for a tenement to tell the story of immigration, which, in and of itself, was an absolutely radical thing to do right to say that an old building that people were abandoning. That should be the fight to study history. Even when most people are starving history in huge museums, studying history in the president's former home or an industrialists form of former home to say that an old penance
is a set of history is a radical thing, for they had this radical idea and they were looking for a continent then, and I think the story goes that they had almost given up hope, because the tenants they found were already we hand or they were. They had changed so much of our time and they were looking at that point. First, storefront start telling the story and then went to this building to see about renting a storefront in this was ninety seven Orchard Street and when they asked to use the restroom, they saw that the restroom was in the hall and it was assigned to them that the building hadn't been updated since the one thousand nine hundred and one housing laws I realise that they had this real time, capsule a place where they could tell many layers and many elements of the immigrant story. So the kind of founding story that's been passed down, we call on our work, but Ruth herself, I think, with framed in I'm with interested in him free and am, but I can't think of her dynamism,
and her creativity still kind of aid. I mean this is amazing to me to think of how people could have had the idea to do this in the nineteen eighty. I just love that its. Piece of history, it's kind of right in line with the things we always talk about, which a sort of history that you don't hear, you know, as you said, we sort of tend to think of studying history and sort of amazing unhallowed halls, and we ve hit it's happening everywhere, all the time to people of all levels of society, so I sort of love that idea that it's it's the real history of real people and it's not something glamorized. It's not someone that his famous you ve heard of, but that doesn't make their stories any less important I think that at the heart of the whole museum and its mission, one of the things we do sometimes is asked her to come. We know what our other historic houses even give me. Some example
MR comes, I now inevitably say, Monte, Carlo. as I say, the mansion, the Newport art Thou say: Mark TWAIN, Palliser, Edith, whartons, homer, you basically giving us the names are very famous wealthy aware, political people, and so that this continues to be a bit Cries: the people in a way that exactly what you're saying that ordinary people sick history, to be the focus of our attention that still somewhat of a radical idea in the public sphere no historians and social historians have been really talking about this, but you know, since the nineteenth fixed, even even before, but it's taken it still, because so much we encounter but then the history can. I are things like this. It is in some ways a history that still focuses on military battles or political person. It is- and I mean just kind of things that theme out of touch by what we specialise in here, either ordinary stories of peace,
but who lived here and actually, when you look at those. Sorry, they really become extraordinary. So I think what were able to do that is be in it. Right where people lived and be able to show that people who would have never thought that anyone would be thinking about them, really did extraordinary things. That's gonna brings me to my next question. Since you are actually housed in what was a tenement. You have kind of an resting lay out and then it's an apartment building and your restoring parts of it, but not all of it. Could you kind of explain to us how that's laid out and what, for the mission is in terms of just the structure and how you're restoration are kind of spearhead in project managed absolutely so the building is I've story with a basement model as well said. The basement mother was initially space for stores and we'd restored, that basement
how to show a saloon that was there in the 1870s actually as early as one thousand eight hundred and sixty four and then above that you have essentially for at least five floors each with four apartments. when the building was first, though, the running water and the bathrooms were outside in the rear yard, and we also be created that rear yard. Thank you. No one developing pained because of a new law which was incredibly important and at that point the landlord had to add two toilets per floor, though the lay out change this law, but they also change over time, but essentially what have another second, third, fourth and fifth floor for apartments, with two toilets and mine holiday and the first floor. You have a longer hallway whenever
Originally thought there were four apartment over time after that link. Anyone having law and the landlord make changes. The first two of those apartments were converted into storefront tricky because the building and every time that event, you have done. Building with a definite mother. It's about twenty five feet wide and sixty six feet deep and the whole width of the lot right is built. still being felt there is very little yards days and that, of course influences the amount of light that the building received while in my understanding, I dont have a huge massive grasp The nineteen o one tenement housing law, but prior to that they wouldn't have had nor lighting, either correct at night great fell Odin and none that the landlord would have provided
when the building was first, there were very few laws governing any kind of requirements for lighting or for running water Go on and therefore, when the building with built in eighteen, sixty three no running water. The bathrooms were outside. Only heard of water was outside and there was no lighting in the central area. Individual penance would bring him their own form of lighting, but there was nothing provided by the landlord, and that was fairly typical. I can imagine some of those hallway trips to the bathroom at night were really really dark. Oh yeah, it is hard to imagine an end. One of the things that educators do so well, though, is make the visitor steel, like they're back in time through them Story telling power and through the details, are able to do through description, but one We are able to give people assembled and our friend hallway is. We have one of the visitors to attack the Lightfoot, though there goes the electric
writing and it became very dark even like ten in the morning eleven in the morning when the sun is shining outside, you see how dark that hallway would be, and then you can start to appreciate and starts. Imagine what that would have been like at midnight or anti I'm just how dark the hallway. then, when you layer that, with the kind of what people would be if they went through the hall, for example, you'd be having to go outside to get a bucket of water so going through a dark hallway, going up darkened staircases Hearing a bucket of water, hoping you're, not gonna, run into thy mind, hoping you knuckle is still the water. I mean the kind of action They are really
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Building to look as it would have in one particular period, one particular EU period of the extreme historical significance not say that leaving a different because the founders decided and the people who work with them and the very beginning, real that, rather than restoring it to one moment, they should be able to take different departments and take them to different moments, and so, when we restore apartment if we're going to restore them differently in part due to what nine period were in filling apartment, for example, that were restoring, could be the eighteen fixed is not going to have running water in it, but an apartment that we're going to restore to be one thousand nine hundred and fifteen would have running water on it doing that requires a lot of research in the actual building. Looking at when Wall Partitions shifted, I'm looking at wallpaper layers looking at paint layers, and so we bring in people who specialize in all of these areas to do analysis of the building of the building. Allen
and that have informed the decisions we make with how we're going to restore a particular apartment to particular time period, also include in some areas, and historical record of significant would be what we I ruined apartments, and so we actually preserve rooms to look as they did when, than Anita discovered. The building in the nineteen eighties and upper floors. Hadn't been used at all no one had ever done since the mid. Nineteen. Thirty is only preserve of harmony that look as they did a night. eighties. After no one had lived every fifty years and we call those ruins because that moment of discovering we feel is important for a visit to understand and that's a kind of hope that I base. We always start with an apartment that looks like that before Create, and so there is a way in which visitors
who museum not only travel through times, simply by crossing a hallway and walking from one apartment to another, but they also see a kind of before and after process in a way that so cool. and that's ongoing- you crazy, that's ongoing. You guys are still in the process of, Renovating the whole building, correct, yeah, they were always doing research into the building and another thing that were really working on issues as preservation and making sure that the building is daily and making sure that were able to repair things that need to be repaired. But that requires analysis, and that requires work and require the work put in and also requires money. Everything we do as a kind of combination of study, a fund raising of studying schedule. The kind of sea when work can be done was mentioned as a huge balancing acts. going back kind of circling by
what we talked about at the top of the interview about can of the importance of, looking at history as it was happening to regular people, I'm curious just four years and what you think is really kind of the big import reason that we should preserve immigration. History specifically and that's I mean it's a sort of american thing to talk about. Even I think people don't always fully. However, a big pictures, so? What all kind of took place? immigration realm, but also as part of a global human story. It's pretty important to think about how people have moved from place to place and made their way, but I'm curiously Taking all that yeah a fascinating story? I think that there is immigration history, a spell important because for many people is very accessible in this country. so we're not a country where most of you in this country. Most people have not been here for twenty two energy. And where a country in which a lot of people can trace their image
Listen, I'm story! Fellow someone might come to our museum, whose great grandparents emigrated are great. Great grandparents, emigrated or grandparent apparent Until we know this is a country, no matter where you live in this country. We have an internet connection to immigration, mean path, photos, migrants who came over, who are in our family. So I think that the immigration story is really accessible to us, because we have immigrant story than her own families on another. or even if you don't have, are you don't know Someone in your family who emigrated immigration story is a saga and a journey, a personal narrative and story, but I think, has so much residence the idea simply of someone picking up leaving a play for them. and for most of their lives every year, into a new place. To start all over again is really exciting narrative that some people
when you have a sense of what movement does and how movement received your life and received the way you think you know again, moving from state to state or city the city, so the p, moving from state to state our city, the city, so that people can take that experience to and use it to relate to immigration. So I think immigration is important because a lot of this building that in some way or another, and I also think that the things we find an army. The aim is that the immigrants story become not just a story of particular groups of people who come at a particular moment in time although it is to happen- and we get into the details of that, but the image story and immigration story is also a lens, and what does it mean to be american? All the people who went to ninety seven orchard, whether they were raised whether they will tell you what a German, whether their east european jewess, all of those people and all of those groups, once they got here, had to grapple with what it meant
American. What does it mean to raise american children? What does it mean to send your kids to new school? What does it mean? and to have american politics take the life of the american economy. Take your life. They all headed, apple and that so that moment, I think where we can kind of look at America from the perspective of immigrants gives us a real insight online. America lies at a particular moment, though we might be a museum of immigration, but I think were also very much a museum of what it meant to be american You mentioned another answer, the sort of many different backgrounds that people came from the lived there in the building of various points in time. Can you give us a picture, What the neighborhood was really like, when this was actually a functioning thriving residents and how kind of evolved through the decades between when it openly eighteen, succeeds and then, when it shut down kind of abruptly in the nineteen thirties, could just as the building itself.
He's a very kind to me: a series of needs and laws and and and improvement the neighbourhood at bath is tainted answered. The buildings changes are, of course, a response to changes in the neighborhood more broadly, when the building was first belt in eighteen, sixty three, this neighborhood was No one is the lower east side. It was known as Klein Doit find a little Germany, and it was called that because the neighborhood in the city a very german neighbor had entered, he fell. We now call the lower east side. What was then called client Deutschland was actually the fifth largest german speaking city in the world right and in New York was the third largest german in city in the world, after Berlin and Vienna. So when ninety seven orchard was built in eighteen, sixty three, it was in the midst of this kind,
driving bustling german neighborhood, where you will hear German on the street, where you'd see german signs where you could buy German faster than you could buy german logger beer at ninety seven orchard at tonight? the wound, you could get a german newspaper you'd here, german music emanating from the from the saloon the beer gardens that were in the neighborhood that very in german neighbourhood and of course, the people who lived at ninety seven orchard reflected that german population as a decade went on Germans moved up town, they moved to neighbourhood called York, though I didn't have to proclaim.
They moved to. New Jersey and new immigrants arrived in the neighborhood and never immigrants that weren't that excited about german sausages or german London beer, because you for EAST european do we're gonna bring their own customs, their own religion, their own food ways to the neighbourhood. They also came in much larger numbers and settled in rapid rapid time period and light in eighty eighty ninety so that this neighborhood is not only a heavily immigrant neighbourhood, but it's the most densely populated neighbourhood. in the country. In some people at the time even argued the world, do you have an extremely crowded neighbourhood and as more people are moving end and as time goes by, the tenement itself become much more dilapidated and so
What was once dope as a home to house a family of aware and attending an apparent, maybe have four people. Maybe five people at the most is now having at least five or six people in a three hundred and twenty five to perfect base, but as many as ten or eleven or twelve in nineteen hundred, so extremely crowded condition that he walked down Orchard Street, it would be very crowded, you'd be contending. With other people going every which way on the streets. They were pushed Kurt peddlers who were selling their wares on parts with wheels. They could be selling pickles, they could be selling fruits, they could be selling old shoes, they could be selling spectacles. Basically everything you need. It be had armies, postcard could have very ino convenient for the housewife and ordered street, but it was very inconvenient if you're on your way to work or on your way to school anywhere late, because this report is filled with people
That almost sounds well the like, when you see a movie sat where they have called central casting too, like throw a bunch of people into a quote period, be it sounds almost yet about what I mean. I feel like that, like the consummate crowd in away like a bird, and they did that you know they come out what was the name of so I cant remember the actually set up a stone sat here. It was incredible because we need Orchard street, look at whatever I think, an eighty nine user nineteen hundred had the people and costumes that was really kind of interesting thing where we either who try to recreate the time in our apartment in our tenement building in our museum were able to see what the screen might have looked like without but even then I still think there would have been more people than ever, but a man
They should also add that in nineteen hundred, when you have a leaf was hurt, have areas on the streets were so densely populated and the signs with now would no longer be German, that they would be, and yet ass, an English and though the language used here on the street would be it s, and maybe a little italian and you'd here English, although the English of it. and be happy, this episode of stuff of stuff you, history in history, brought brought. You buy Norton three sixty with lifelong, let's just say your shopping online with your smartphone. I do it all the time. They sure feels that your personal info is right there in your hand, but that's not always the case, because, as soon as you hit submit your purse. information could start going other places. In fact, when you shop, bank or browse online, your personal info can get out of your control, which can leave you vulnerable to cybercriminals mortar
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or for a few decades and then You tell us about kind of the led up to it suddenly ending as an apartment building. Absolutely fell in nine nine even as early as the urban ideal, especially Subway was built in eighty four and some of the bridges were opened, Williamsburg Bridge in one thousand, nine hundred and three in the Manhattan bridge. In one thousand, nine hundred and eight inside her eyes, were anxious to get out of a lorry five because of the conditions that I described because of the kind of conditions of people were leaving, but they were always being replaced by new waves of immigrants and by the nineteen pains you start to have more italian moving into Furthermore exciting and Orchard street, though Nanking ten nineteen, twenty eight are building becomes more italian, but in nineteen twenty four, you have a major task
and because a law is passed, a federal law that, for the first time, is using national quotas and makes it very difficult to get into the country immigrants can no longer get into the country is very hard to get into the country if you're coming from Southern Europe. Are you coming from Eastern Europe if you're coming from Asia can't come in at all, so we can have a nineteen twenty four. This country closes its gates and it becomes difficult to get here and that has huge consequences than huge. You know ramifications for the country in a busy for those would have wanted to come, but what it means for the lower east side is that, for the first time you have a decrease in population and between nineteen one thousand nine hundred and thirty, the think the by I think in nineteen one are you have three hundred and sixty
having people living here and by the end of the decade. You have a hundred and sixty thousand, so a huge decrease in population, and then you play one thousand nine hundred and thirty five by one thousand nine hundred and thirty, four one thousand nine hundred and thirty five. Our landlord, we know only has seven tenants out of the twenty apartments that he could be letting out and sew in nineteen, Nineteen, twenty nine and ninety thirty four law there passed that require staircases to be fireproof and the state He says Emma hallways negative, an orchard are made of wood and they still are made of wood because the landlord at that time decided it's not worth investing in the building in this way to bring it up to code it's either
Here, a wreck, the residents who are still here and yes, you space to store the first and the second floor, a store spaces and fell in nineteen thirty five. He is the residents and so band pointing with a collection of one one and Fanny am rolling if any rubbish dusky who Americanism named Rosa she's, left in the building for a few more years of the caretaker, but for all intents and purposes in nineteen thirty, five, the building his emptied of its residents. and so it's really interesting to me is that it stays that way for for fifty years, Sylvie Rent it out as the store France, but now was touching, and here the those other floors I mean it, it's in a way right, but in to put your to put ourselves in mine frame of people who would be living here in the nineteen thirty's
we want to live in a tenement road and conformity, Why would you want to live in a tenement? You can get better housing now in Brooklyn or in the Bronx or in clean. So why spam allow our east. I must be really really have to sell their. Even if muttered the man for housing hands, there is less ran and settlement that I've, a landmark, are investing in the spaces and they made a time capsule accidental. but maybe it with our purpose. We could go back in time, maybe the landlord with thinking you now. If I see urban it'll, be ripe and affirm museum in fifty year exactly. I bet fifty of securing the sort of Mr Burns hand clasping. They have that in fifty years to another we ve gotten to the point in the story where the tenement closed and leaped kind about time, capsule for people to come back to later, you're gonna cliff. Hang you just a little bit in the next
So we'll talk about some of the specific residents who lived in the tenement while it was still a residence and will also talk about some of the programmes and ongoing work that the museum is doing today. They clearly has the most normal worse as well. I do this from our listener Andrew and he says hello, Meda, the entire family- loves the park ass. He has two kids at that are each seven and ten, and to adopt kids with him and his wife. I presume these I recall many many years ago, reading about how Miss bring back. Who was that was the original name of Katie's hand. We never first took restates name, Miss bring back had defeated, Sandel call from that episode. She channel Eugene Sand out to a lifting contest, and it was really quite preposterous on the surface, but in fact she beat him and It goes on
either of the article speculated that MS bring back in her father knew exactly what they were doing when they slowly increase the weight and did multiple lifts in rapid succession. Miss bring back with. tip top physical shape. She was not only strong. She also had amazing stamina sand now became fatigued and he was not able to lift the three hundred pound weight. So recall the source. It was many years back when we had that when we had deep discussions of such things in the dorm hallway, or did I dream it, That's an interesting thing that I have thought about sort of the the strategy of that lifting contest. Oh yeah, and how she was deferred, any listeners that either missed it or just need a quick refresh. They were lifting in slowly incrementally increasing waits. So if she had been working on her stamina that entire time she probably wasn't getting worn out all of these lifts. The success lives, whereas if Saint now had been working strictly and strengthen less on muscle stamina, he may
I want to a little earlier in the competition, pretty fascinating stuff, If you would like to write to us in sheer your knowledge, whether his imagined in a normal or deal that could it's a real deal. But he's not positive that the you can write to us in history pie cast a house to rockstar com. You can
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