In 1892, a Massachusetts couple was brutally murdered; the only serious suspect was their daughter, Lizzie Borden. Borden was acquitted, but people have speculated about the crime ever since. Tune in to learn how new evidence might shed light on her case.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Welcome to stuff you missed in history class from how works
eleven. Welcome to the house and fared out in employment are promoting, and in our recent Roanoke UP day, we talked a little bit about how much we love and evolving history stories of something that is far in the past. That still has been
lucky to have the story, change through new research, new exploration, new discoveries and, and that absurd the discovery.
She was a patched over portion of a map that was written in invisible, ink, so real history,
sleuth kind of stuff that could hopefully offer
information about the law colony at some point in the
The episode, though, which focuses on a sensational trial of was born. The new
Formation comes from something much simpler to
are bound journalists that just hadn't made their way into historians. Hands and tall earlier this year,
staring Katy recorded a pie cast on Lizzie burden in two thousand and ten, the young woman.
Keys to killing her father and step mother with an act in eighteen. Ninety two was one of this podcast,
for class. Not therewith testing is another way very listeners. I would compare Lizzie Board into Tesla, but by two thousand and nine
So, just a few months after the part cast, there were already updates to the story of a book came out that year called parallel.
lives and it was written by the curators of the fall ever historical society, which holds most of the
Odin trial, boredom murder artifacts than it contains plenty of previously unpublished. Information on Lizzie, including
documents, photographs, even some letters that were written in her own hand and some of the letters
been written while she was in prison, leading up to her trial for very specific
I'm afraid there one where you'd be curious about what frame of mind she was then, and they did sort of shit.
The general perception of Lizzie as a very cold unfeeling person toward her family according to one of
authors. Michael Martens quote: there was a tremendous outpouring of grief and the letters and that's a new site.
Story, but even more information started to come out earlier this spring and that's when this
equal society came into possession of the two journals that we just mentioned, which had spent in low
of the century stored in a victorian bathtub. So we
lead you on too much here so far. There is not really any sort of,
looking gun pointing to Lizzie skills that
there's some new insight into Lizzie, successful defence, but first
Give a lesson to the original episode on Lizzie, which provides the details about the murders. The trial and some prevailing here is so check that out.
Welcome to the podcast, I'm Katy, Lambert and unfair dowdy and work on us
off with a modified nursery rhyme. Here, if you're ready, Reddy's I'm ready for ok,
see board and took an axe and gave her mother nineteen wax and when she saw what she had done, she gave her father ten wait. That's not much of a nurse
I'm blood donor, I am less because the real Ryan Fairer is a lie. It says she gave her mother forty wax and gave her father forty one. That is not true and
sea borders is one of the podcast topics that we have always resisted. We probably get this request. Maybe more
any other topic. I don't know, I don't wanna, I want put one
but the other, but its way way up there along with Jack the Ripper. That kind of thing that this subject has never interested us much because inheres with story, a woman was accused of brutally murdering her parents and hacking their faces to pieces that she's
waited, and we still do not know if she really did at that's. That's the
story in that kind of your standard. Nightly news fair. I mean I hate to say it, but it's something that happened almost every day. One of course the story of someone who murders a family member is nothing new. You know we ve got Kane, enable uncolored, Gula and do still love. It
We had to rethink our point of view, because if so many of you are captivated by this story, there must be a reason why and we aim to put our prayers
aside and try to find it thorough. Here we go: ok, the basics of our case on August for eighteen, ninety two and fall River Massachusetts
a woman is brutally murdered in her home with a hatchet,
not long after her husband meets the same fate while he's asleep on a couch in the living room. The main fast fact is their thirty two year old, daughter, Lizzie Boarding, and we have a few possible motives money. The father was a very wealthy man or hatred of the stepmother stepmother that request
Oh part, to this store a combination of the two, a combination of the two area, though the jury's the verdict is acquittal and not the problem
The main reason why people are so fascinated with the story. What really happened? How did was important get acquitted
a little family background to start with a sterile.
Anthony Morse married Andrew Jackson boarded the Christmas of eighteen, forty five and they had three children.
together, Emma Alice and Lizzie Alice died at the age
of two and Sarah herself died when Lizzie was about three social, never got to know her.
and Sarah mentioned Andrew was very wealthy. He owned property, he had holdings and textiles and banking here
did corporations and one would imagine that made him an attractive prospect for a husband and so
pussy has two young girls and fell levies
remarry than he marries? Abbe, dirty and Lizzie was about five at the time and Emma the older sister about fourteen and according to Lizzie is testimony to the inquest.
Emma always called her stepmother Abbe, but Lizzie always called her mother,
until about five or six years before the murder went down, so make of that what you will, but the it seems like this is a woman who she thought of as
mother for most of our life. Again later, when the dossier Jose Knowlton asked if Lucy's relationship with her stepmother was cordial, she replied. It depends upon ones idea of cordiality. Perhaps, which isn't exactly the picture of a happy home, but Emma in her trial, testimonies
their relationship was cordial and that Lizzie and her father had a very good one. So
Can I give you the outline of if she did it? This is what happened. Okay, so here is the basic starting fact: Lizzie and Emma both admitted that they were upset about their father, giving one of its properties to Abbey and her sister, instead of them they're, both older, their unmarried and expected their elderly father would provide for them and set them up
rest their life financially and according to some, there was this rumour that he was gonna change, his well in favour of his wife, and that might cause a few family problems. I'd say so on August third, which was the day before the murders Lizzie attempted to buy prussic asset, a poison from pharmacist Eli Bands
and he refused her, but the burdens- and there may be the bridges Sullivan all reported feeling sick that day and the next morning, data on August for Emma was in Fair Haven Massachusetts, but there were a few other people around the maid we just mention Brigitte, but also a random way. The deceased Ferris brother, John Morceau Lilies,
uncle SAM Polizia uncle on her mom side he's visiting. He had arrived the night before, but he left in the morning to go visit, another cup
so he's not around when the murders go down, but he's there immediately before, and then he comes back with thereafter Andrew Board and her father left the house
morning as well. To get some business done in town, Abbe stayed in the house,
she began doing chores headed to the guest room, to make the bad you know put on pillow shams tidy up and she asked Brigitte to wash the outside of the windows. If she's in the house, bridges outside the house, the only other person his inside the house is Lizzie. Gordon. Ok, though, according to Livy story, at this point, Abbe received a note from Thumb messenger. We don't know who calling her to some sick persons home. We don't know
that person either and Abbe left the house on this errant. But this is where our events are gonna start out like. If Lizzie did it hears? What happened, though, what happened then, if Lizzie did it, is she found Abbe on the second floor, hitter from behind with an axe and then,
act her eighteen more time and she left the body she cleaned herself up and the axe. She knew her father, probably wouldn't
for a while and that being an hour and a half, so in them
time she did some reading and some ironing and selling
how can I was hers between murdered and when he returned, Brigitte unlocked the door for him and as she did, she heard Lizzie laughing on the second floor, landing after she had killed her stepmother, so Lizzie told Andrew that his wife had received that note, and it's got off on the urine and cheap settled him down on the couch
and try to convince Brigitte to go out of the house it. There is, firstly, a really get fail in red, then strain the nail who can resist arrogance and take the maid, but Brigitte isn't interested. She instead goes to the attic, pretty worn out
while that window washing in her upset stomach from the poison the night before but possible, poisoned Hathaway Wavin thereafter Lizzie settled her father on the couch. He falls asleep and then supposedly she hit him in the face and head with the axe ten times so hard that she snapped the hand off the act. But then, in ten
minutes. According to the timeline at the police tried to put together based on when everyone said, they were doing that Darien and Lucy's own conflicting testimony. She would have had to clean herself off her clothes and murder weapon in ten,
minutes and only then axing someone ten times
imagine that would be a message saying yeah. I think so, and only after this did she called her Brigitte for help and announced TAT. Her father had died. She didn't say anything about Abbe, because she thought that Abbe headline
the house is often the errand soap now we're gonna move on to the bodies and the sea and MRS pretty disturbing staff.
Abby had a five inch hole in her skull and her head, and her faith were completely unrecognisable. She was lying face down in class, violated blood and her clothes,
soaked in it and the bad and the pillar sham next to her were all bloody and the war
in the chair and the bureau all covered in blood. Just a small, disturbing detail, her braid had even been hacked off, allowing we have
citing news yeah. I am wildly excited and people
have another opportunity to watch. We cry at art, yeah you set out its so called at its though not a calm situation at all. Our trip to Paris last year was really successful, so we're doing another similar trip this year, but this time to Rome and Florence, its May fourteen through twenty first twenty twenty and like last time it is with a company called defined destinations. Who is playing out this ultra for us yeah and during that week long trip. We are going to see some of the great art that we have talked about on the show many times, including Miguel angel is David. We are going to go to Tuscany, we're gonna visit Saint Petersburg Silica. We are going to the Sistine Chapel, so it's going to be a fantastic trip, even get the whole list of places that we are going and information about looking at defined destination,
dot com scroll down to the roman foreign strip was stuffy, miss than history glass or come over to our social media. We have posts about it. There too, it seems like it should be easy, but it's not just getting out of bed and getting your day started. Trying to accomplish everything you need to do in your day that to do list as a lot easier when you're getting news stories in music to lift your mood and preparing for the day ahead, get connected to the things that make you laugh and make you think or make you want to reach out and share with a friend every morning with us, it's Elvis Joanne in the morning show listen to us on cue, one or two or anywhere in the world on the Iheart Radio, app
the was on his back on a lounge his face turned as he slapped and his face,
had to were no longer recognisable. You can find pictures of the crime scene online if you so desire, which you very well might not. The act had gone through his cheek phone. It had suffered his eye in half hour. There was blood dripping onto the floor and from the sofa and on the walls painting on the wall there.
In the door and it was still wet and flowing when others entered the scheme, which is why we assume that Abbe had died first and he had died. Second, but it seems very personal to attack only a person's face and had to us definitely in and so many times too, but here's an important detail: the rooms were perfectly in order. There is no sign of a break and no sign of a struggle. It seems likely that whoever did this new a couple and also the borders kept all of their door's locked all of the time and supposedly this is because there then a fast in the home and perhaps Lizzie
the history of shoplifting answer. Their house was always on lockdown, which pink rather disturbing seen for the house to I'd, say it make her move out. Not at will. Endeavour of interest is like the front door. Locked like a normal house would be, but all the rooms and everything just completely locked down all the
I'm so and if it is all locked, the person probably would have had to be in the house the whole time, the exactly so after the murders Lizzie called for Bridget. After this ten minute window, we have and then sent Brigitte go get the family doctor, Doktor Berlin Brigitte couldn't find the doktor. He wasn't there. She comes back without him and then
Is he sent her out again this time to get a family friend Alice Russell, but in the meantime, their neighbour, Adelaide Churchill showed up and she went off for her.
So just imagine all of these people
in an hour, but large periods of time, we're living in the house by herself possibly doing anything doctor, but
does come to the house. Finally and Brigitte and Adelaide Return, and there are the ones who discover abbeys body upstairs because of course, that police officer asked Lucy when's the last time,
tell your mother she's, no and often another yeah
but she was gone and the house for the last time she had seen her was in the guest room, so the maid and there
her go upstairs and find abbeys body
and you can imagine we ve already listed. All of these people who are at the crime scene
If we have more off, there is more neighbours and onlookers, everyone is trampling
Oliver everything police are walking through the crime scene that evidence whatever evidence. There were then, is completely contaminated and
one Katy just convention and here an officer on the scene, ass Lizzie when she laughed in her mother and she was very careful to say no, it's my step mother and she said her mother died when
the baby, and this turns out to be a really big piece of evidence, or at least it keeps coming up and turned into a big piece of events. But I don't
how much how much there is to that.
he's just trying to be very precise, the owner and obvious her stepmother. It no matter what kind relationship they had. So no one thought Lizzie was killed,
and instead all manner of suspicious characters are implicated.
had mentioned. An angry tenant that she'd heard with her father. Others were seeing suspicious
Men near the house recently, including a mysterious portuguese farm hand who perhaps with the fiendish murderer that ends up not handing out and another portuguese guy, had reason
killed someone in town, so he thought maybe was Hammond arrested a different ones. Try not to be portuguese around the board and murder
but an early newspaper accounts. They said that Lucy had been in the barn she came into the house. She saw her fathers body, rushed up stairs and found her mothers, and then they were counted any possible theory. This angry tenant
a man had been sleeping in the hay, laughed and planning these murders, someone who was poisoning the families, milk, some kind of trickster who sent Abbe this note to try to get her out of the house and commit other sinful deeds in and go after Mr Gordon,
the newspapers are suggesting Lizzie as the possible murder at all. At this point, according to the Boston, Harold Quote in Lizzie burdens life,
There is not one unmaidenly nor a single deliberately unkind act, so people were pretty confident. It was not this well bred a young woman. It was some sort of dastardly man prefer.
Lee of portuguese farm hastened joyous for them, a mysterious man whose briefly in town it couldn't be Lizzie Board and her staff but
evidence starts piling up, because who else could have done it
According to this timeline and all the other aspects, like the locked doors, she was pretty much
only one and this mysterious man theory begins to seem a little fan, letters
Is it a good mysterious man around now and she is emerging as the most likely suspect, especially after her inquest testimony. So the ink
was August, ninth and its Jose Knowlton questioning her and also Brigitte and John Wars, and some of the others unless he continually contradicts herself.
Bout times and the sequence of events, and she said some very odd things. She seems confused by the questions and was disquieting the com in just a few days later, on the eleventh of August, she was arrested and claim to.
not guilty by August twenty. Second, there was a preliminary hearing and that the judge said well, she probably is guilty and she's gonna have to go in front of
and jury, but the grand jury wooden agree to actually meet until they got this just sort of decisive account from Alice Russell and Alice Russell said she was that the friend and neighbour remember. She said that she saw Lizzie burning addressed in the kitchen. Just
days after the murder. So once the grand jury, here's fatter, like our aid, is an indictment we better here who better. Here what Lizzy, I have to say. The train.
began June, fifth, eighteen, ninety three and again somewhere fabulous newspaper clothes in the Boston. Harold quote
her dark, lustrous eyes. Ordinarily flashing were dimmed and her pale face was evidence of the physical suffering she was undergoing and had experienced or living horror. Lizzie, though, the prosecution with led by their Knowlton and William Moody, the defence led by Andrew Jennings, Melvin, Atoms and George Robinson and Moody, told the jury that Lizzie had planned the murders committed the murders and then couldn't even keep her story straight, and they haven't seen a tier from error in issues not reacting as a woman in this position should she hated her stepmother. She wanted your father's money.
the story that they were presenting. But there are plenty of things that Lizzie had going for her, starting with she's this woman of breeding from a good family she does newspaper. Could she had plenty of character recommendations and not many people thought a woman was capable of hacking someone's face
setting a poison sounds like a nice feminine way to kill someone and not a hatchet, and then we have the character references coming in. Here too, though,
the and her uncle and made all said that she had a good really
with Andrew an Abbe. There was no motive to kill either of them, and then this is a third of the crucial thing they didn't have the murder weapon. They have some axes occurs there plenty around it.
got a barn and they ve got one that doesn't have a handle, but there's no blood anywhere on it and women
the handle it could be the act, but it could just be a broken acts sitting around from farm work and we also have no blood on her clothes or her shoes. We have nothing, no blood so unless he bore
not a really great case for the prosecution, completely circumstantial, and then this is the the killer thing here
for very unintended her inquest testimony, which is why, of course made the judge- think she needed to go in front of a grand jury in the first place- was ruled inadmissible in court, and that's because the judge believed that she had been treated as a prisoner instead of as a fact backed while she was having her inquest
how'd you like. She wasn't. Just a witness she was under questioning. Yeah should have had an attorney president since she didn't. He didn't think that they could actually take her in quite seriously. What another side now Doktor Berwin had dosed her with morphine before this in class to keep her calm, but
do that could have made her candle Lupi. So I mean that could explain her country either. You wanna go to moaning and why everything can a confused her, but the prosecution was thing.
Even in her inquest, she denied everything. There wasn't anything in the inquest
confession: yeah. She wasn't coerced into confessing to these murders and cause she's all doped up on morphine. If
didn't confessed to it. Then why couldn't you that I was there their point, but the testimony was excluded and also ruled inadmissible was Eli bans.
The pharmacist his testimony about her trying to buy poison from him. These are two key points that are missing from that entire: try other that Lupi in class and the poison fact, which seems very significant, though there is still a fair amount of evidence against her, though
According to bridging the made. There was no way anyone else could have gotten into the house during the timeline of the day without being seen and Lizzie was simply the only person who would have had access, and I also thought it was very strange that list
didn't wonder where her mother went and that she was also in the house and didn't hear her being murdered and falling
the ground. You know. Maybe after you come across your father's body, you begin to wonder what happened to your mother, Gower, be which is clear, her falling upstairs, but the family may have said that Lizzie and Abbe had a pretty ok relationship, but others were testifying. No, they Lily hated. Her stepmother and the French, the family friend, Alice Russell said that Lizzie had come to her the night before
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A further Lizzie also said that she had been in the barn during the time of her fathers homicide, but when officers went to investigate the loft, it was very dusty and there were no footprints, but the officers own which
a little bit strange and it was also extremely hot and there she claimed to have been there for thirty minutes on this silly errand. Looking for lead, first thinkers, which again something not quite right there, maybe not an area Europe, a Tory
in the middle of the day, and then there that note, which seems very sketchy indeed the note that lazy, sad, MR subordinates,
no one ever found the no. No one ever figured out who the messenger wise know enough
and fitted out through the thick person why's he needed visiting in the first place. There is the reward offered. Nobody came forward with any new again her time line that Dame
no sense and the our saw her burning. She said it had paint
doing a little order.
Cleaning from today's Turner, yeah- and it could very well of course, have been blood and the dress that she gave the police and said she was wearing that day. Wasn't the dress she was wearing at all at the time of the murdered. It was a much too silky and kind of a knife draft, not the first thing. You got it
or address around the house, and then Lizzie was eagerly com during the whole trial. According to the New York Times Quit, the most remarkable feature of the trial has been the demeanor of Lizzie boarding from start to finish, she's manifested no feeling of weakness and has listened to the recital of the most cold, blooded and shocking details of the crime with a perfectly in passive and unmoved. Countenance, I maintain, it could have been shocked, could have been shocked, but here we withdrew, search through the papers, turn a little bit against her, though
does day when the schools of her parents were revealed that they consider that a point for her tat? There are some rebuttals. As far as that whole dusty hayloft thing, there were some men doing work a few days before the murders never like
and we were in there and there no footprints of ours either. So this is ridiculous piece of evidence and also what a killer be that open about burning addressed in the kitchen. That was further point. Wouldn't she be sneak hear about it
gotta get rid of the dress you gotta get rid of it and again, whereas our bloody hatchet where's this act handle that supposedly came off from the force of the blows. How could she wash herself her clothes
a murder weapon in about ten minutes before she called Brigitte. Some people were like. Maybe she did it naked and that's how, but I mean certainly paints the wilder and then one more violence
Britain. Rebuttal ever was a really rich guy, so it's not too unlikely that somebody might have company can stammerer wanna get money somehow,
and then, some people did say that they had seen suspicious characters does nobody. They could specifically name hanging around the house for the murders one again. This involves circumstantial evidence and there is a reasonable doubts and I think we can all agree if we were on that Jerry, we would have thought the same thing and the judge agreed unless he was acquitted, o picking up with living life after the murderers. What happened
after a trial like this and sensational murders like this Emma and Lizzie, bought a nice house together and fall River Lizzie named it maple craft and changed her name to Lisbeth Emma became very involved in church, but eventually moved out. They had some sort of falling out our argument and possibly because Lizzie had a relationship with an actress and Emma changed her name as well, and they died only nine days, a part which is one of those spooky little connected to the earlier bizarre little thing very go guys, Lizzie boarded up a third, and I mean we ve got a thing,
that sort of modern connections to what we see in the news right. What an and why it so important a mean today, like you mentioned earlier, when you're looking at the news, the murder of a child or spouse or a parent, is unfortunately, all too common and after a while, maybe the horror of that stops being so shocking, and maybe it's easier to contemplate a crime like this with the safety that distance provide you looking back at it in time, it's not so present, and this has become such a part.
American law that we ve got a nursery rhyme about it, yeah Lizzie Borders become a clodagh nursery rhyme, maybe plane ride, not where he's thing in the nursery
No, I visited Salem about a year and a half ago and
the burden is not from Salem, but there are,
All these shops, with Lizzie, Gordon memorabilia and in others hologram thing for its death, stayed portrait of nice buttoned up Lizzie born and then it's like scary acts. Our guide. That kind of thing. I think it is just she's occult figure she caught people
attention somehow and of course, were always fascinated by Gore and violence. Human beings in general, not just sarah- and I am, but also by what is unsolved, because you know we'd like to tie up loose ends. We like to find our answers, but in this
is the only real
Satisfying answer would be for Lizzie boarding to appear right before us and
yes, I did it perhaps hologram. I hope it will just be the real her, but that's the answer we can't
Ok, so now that we listen to the older
I cast Katy and I really discussed in depth the perception of Lizzie as as cold and unfeeling, and how that sort of changed over over the course of the trials, though
clearly the letters and other documents from last year have somewhat altered. That perception of she's did seem to be grieving, although naturally that doesn't
Will we get her off the hook for anyone still speculating on this too? Just because your grieving doesn't mean you didn't do it, but
It's the new info that really might change perceptions about this case. I think after the trial was he's lawyer, Andrew Jackson, Jennings wound up with much of the other,
sustained pillow shams, the hatchet, with its handle broken off, and he kept all
plus his two leather journals, one
it contained in annotated, newspaper clippings, a collection of annotate newspaper clippings and the other
obtained, his handwritten notes and all this was in a victorian tab as we mentioned and enter. I wouldn't want to put all this kind of grisly staffing, your closet and, of course not you just leave it in Lebanon, any random place, but his daughter, Marian Jennings, wearing left most of the collection to the fall river historical society in nineteen sixty, but then his grandson, Edward wearing Hell
so the journals himself, since he was afraid, researchers would be an
Walter Reed has grandfathers messy handwriting and then they might misquote hymns and whose worried about this stuff and decided to hang onto it
Mr wearing died, though in late, two thousand and eleven
the journals to society and his well thought, then stop
curator Michael Martens, has been able to examine some of which contain inside. Although the jury,
are still too fragile to read entirely, they need to be better preserved first and according to the Boston
Martin said quote: it's the only file Jennings retained and it's the first idea. We have about how the defence, when about building its case
so clearly those annotated news clippings in that first journal, maybe
to historians, considering how much the press reaction to the trial transformed over its core
so, we know we might fail to find out what
turned Lizzie lawyer. What was being printed about her at the time that caught his attention?
real kicker is Jennings list of people interview for the case in his notes on his interviews. According to Martens and ABC News, quote a number of
people joining spoke to where people he knew internet way on us
sure business level, so many of them were perhaps more candid with him than they would have been. Otherwise
also evident that there are a number of new individuals who spoke to who had previously not been connected with the case, so new witnesses,
new kinds of information here and possibly possibly some kind of
Croatia not why these people were involved in the case publicly line of inside skew lighted. Her lawyer not want them involves the Jenin
so Pepper II, one hundred page written journal with a lot of his own insights, and just let me give you a sense of that. Just the fact that he knew a lot of the people involved pretty closely. He had some insights himself, so, for instance, he wrote about
Andrew Board, and have always spoken of his girls and he'd call him his girls quite fun,
and provided for them? Well, so that slightly
the bank, the miser theory. You know Andrew Board and Wise well off that he was supporting his his adult daughters, and then he also supposedly mentioned how much he liked receiving letters from them. How much he enjoyed that, though, as if this spring, the journals had
Ben entirely reviewed yacht, even though the society does plan to eventually publish them, though maybe by
time by the time. The whole thing comes out will be ready for another update. This pike ass, you gotta, keep us up.
on a difficult one, one of those upstairs that we got a lot.
suggestions for it before it came out, but then without a lot of link, then news stories sent to us
when all this new information,
people really love gruesome as it is, people really love this story and just continue to want to find out more about it.
incidentally, was he was big, and the news for another reason this spring to though maple craft, the fourteen room, Queen Anne she lived in after her acquittal, is up for sale for six hundred and fifty thousand dollars. So if you're
big Lizzie born there, you go. So if you
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