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we continue to invest in history from has stuck her low and welcome to the money, asked treason and I'm Hollingford we haven't interview today. Yeah you did. I did I did do it. We haven't had an immune, awhile crack. Today we are talking to these secretary of Education, John, be king, Jr and Secretary King joined the United States Department of Education as a principle, you're adviser and twenty fifteen, and before that he was the commissioner of Education for the state of New York. But career really began as an educator. You taught social he's in San, Juan Porter Ego and Boston Massachusetts, and then earlier this year we got an email from the Department of Education asking whether

I'd like to have come on the show. I'm gonna go ahead and thank the Department of Education for asking that, because this turned out to be quite lovely, Does the answer was immediately? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, but then it was also k with. How would that work? Because we were not really. You know an education policy I gather that wouldn't, but wouldn't really billet our listeners would be up for so what we did was we quickly. Cited on a topic that at that point was completely new to me and I think, all the highly it was the preliminary emancipation proclamation. I had never heard of this before it was never mentioned in any of my history classes. It also didn't come up in any of our men. Previous episodes about slavery, the civil war and reconstruction of which we have a lot until our reach. Episode on contraband camps, the Holly research that actually was researched after

Tal interviews scheduled yes behind, it happened, it had happened yet, and I think part of it is that this particular document a mast into like a big kind of glossed over thing of well. There was a lot of back and forth. You know leading up to the emancipation. Broccoli in China gets lumped in and it doesn't get a moment to stand on its own and be examined the year. The amount patient proclamation, the final one issue Abraham Lincoln on January. First of eighteen. Sixty three is of course way more familiar to most people. That's the one that declared that p, enslaved in states that were rebelling against the union quote are and henceforward shall be free. That gene. Weary. First emancipation proclamation did not immediately free everyone who is enslaved in the United States that only applied to the confederate states that were in rebellion, but it did just

the stage for the eventual abolition of slavery in the entire United States. Another date that comes we regularly is June team, which is June nineteenth of eighteen, sixty five, which is when the peace, of Galveston Texas. Finally, the news, the emancipation the nation had happened at that point. The war had also ended so a lot of times that others, like the last, like the last hold out chattel slavery in the United States. Slavery was for We abolished nationwide with the adoption of the thirteenth amendment on December, eighteenth of eighteen, sixty five, so we're talking about today is as also from way before that. Women Area Emancipation proclamation was basically a one hundred they warning of the proclamation that was to come that, following January, document itself is one of secretary kings. Particular interests involved,

commissioner of Education in New York, he took the document itself on a seven city tour as part of an exhibition called first step to freedom, the exit and started out at the Schomburgh Centre for research in black culture in New York City and from there is. We said it took two seven other cities secretary Also, co authored the text that went along with an exhibition in the first of our interview with him. We are going to talk about why Lincoln decided to basically warn the rebelling states of what was coming and how that document fit into the arc of how the civil war progressed from originally from a human point of view being more about retaining the union to eventually from the union. We about abolishing slavery for joining us today. As secretary of Education, John, be King Jr. Thank you so much for being on the so today happy to do it

I have heard from so many folks on your staff- that one of your passions is preliminary emancipation proclamation and so on September, twenty seconds. Eighteen sixty two, which was a hundred days before you the Emancipation Proclamation President able The Lincoln issued this preliminary proclamation. That said, among other things, that if the rebelling states did not return to the union, therein slave populations would be forever freed. So what led to President Lincoln basically warning the rebelling states that this was going to happen. Well, so you know in many ways it was for Lincoln, a manner of political strategy Ryan to build public. Will a around the Emancipation proclamation he wanted to both conveyed.

The south have had an opportunity to return to the union and also build public understanding that this was then step water TIM successfully, prosecute the civil war, an interesting way here. He's her timed issues. Clementine Emancipation proclamation for a moment when the northwest doing better in the civil wars over the date that it was issued, is actually bound up with the battle at Antietam. Then it was the success there that allowed him to issue, because been warned by Secretary Seward, in July that if he issued the poor emancipation proclamation of low moment in the conflict, it would seem like desperation. But if you do, after a victory, it would seem like.

A more confident maneuver done tat, give it a chance to returned to the union and on the right terms or to move forward. Finish the work. Was there any dance at all that that their rebelling stay we're going to rejoin the union. After this essentially threat, I think this really was Edison Mass, your politician figuring what are we take to build look well. He also want realize the historical importance of emancipation. Proclamation in many ways. It was for and the promise of the declaration of independence are critical defining moment for the country, and I think one in turn. The emancipation proclamation have the strongest possible.

Ambition, because he recognise its importance. So part of this was you suddenly, laying with legal groundwork for future emancipation. So what would have happened if these states have rejoined the union in an efforts and not have their slaves. Emancipated interestingly, in the preliminary emancipation proclamation, there's language around the possibility that I'd, be answered, financial, renew marine for the owners of slaves. If that play states returned that language does not appear in me Then the January eighteen thousand, eight hundred and sixty three emancipation, affirmation, and so Lincoln had a vision and would wish theory that the institution of

We could have been on a path to disappearance, eliminated and the territory's sir phased out in the states that had slavery in Place right, but I think, are ultimately Lincoln. I said that this was a step that would also I changed the nature of the war and make the war fundamentally not just about protect the union, but about ending the institution of slavery. That really leads really well into my next question, which is at the start of the war. Several slave states had basically promised that they wish to see if Lincoln, was elected, and so then he was elected and they did succeed, but from Lincoln's way to view the war at the beginning was not really so much about slavery as it was about preserving the union and it was like the Focus actually became. It came around

abolition of slavery as the war progress. So well. Does the preliminary emancipation proclamation Fit into this arc of of moving ram it being about preserving the union to also be about ending the institution of slavery. Interesting question and one that that will be scholars of Lincoln have debated so there's one view that is then Lincoln always intended to make progress towards the eventual abolition of slavery, but whether savvy and thoughtful politician understood, The first step was to not have slavery, expand into the internet, a choice as war began saga opportunity. Can move towards emancipation and

pursued the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation Emmy Emancipation Proclamation, as as they tactic to satisfy his ultimate goal, all of the elimination of slavery, That's one view. Another view is banned. Lincoln was me spoke, is always on preservation of the union and and would have those in that above all else and new. There is, of course, that you know that famous language from Lincoln, where, where he tries to make that make point that he would preserving and above all else, whether that was with or without the institution of slavery. Till one view is that that was a agenda articulation of his view and and and another view would be that it was a political strategy. And then he realized he had to build public will over time and on end some of Lincoln trading. You hear him talk

the idea that public will, the to accomplishing things that are hard and that you need to bring the public along though I love the idea of the president, meeting to bring the public along with him ass. He and the nation were gradually moving towards abolishing slavery, but idea has been present. And so so many social changes we have talked about on the show before we can talk about some really difficult times and United. It's where a change needed to be made and it took a while to bring people along to be more on board with the change. It's really interesting to talk about this document as one of a more gradual attempts to change the public view to the idea Abolishing slavery was really something new to happen entirely It's you now. We often think about this period. I think critically in history,

in a way where it it gets taught in a very and white way- and I don't mean to be funny- but it's like this happen- but he got it and then this happen and everybody in its ignored. It was still over like it. None of these deaths were immediate, they were not. You know like a door winning or closing it was all like. Gradually, you really had the leg, coax it through its processes. Can you the coke, say that more than a century afterwards, so we're going to take a brief break forward from a sponsor before we get back to talking to secretary thing. Here's the thing giving money with Geico was almost better than playing pick up basketball, because there's always that guy who joins your game, he never passes the rock he constantly bricks theories and who completely

you and then put his hands up and say no foul, no foul with Geico, it's easy to switch save on car insurance. No, the vacant fake, an ankle sprain because you're absolutely exhausted, so which, in save with back it's almost better than sport So, let's have been Tracy's talk with Secretary King they're gonna talk about the language of the document, which is a lot more formal. Illegal didn't, can era documents that a lot of? U S, school kids, wind of memorizing for class, is not at all sound like four score in seven years ago, not not remotely. So one of the things that I think a lot of people remember most about Lincoln from their regular history classes is the Getty the Gettysburg address, and that has been addressed that you would probably described as being beautifully

It has almost poetic flowing language and this document not really have that it is a lot more formal and legal in its tone. Can you talk about that difference? A little bit sure. Well, you know Lincoln was a lawyer and he thought about this as a as illegal action, they would need to be legally defensible and Viewed the emancipation proclamation exercise, then your presidential, more powers, and so the document is in very legalistic prose and intentionally so, and he took great care and personally authoring doc to end the version of the programme aspiration acclamation that new state. Library bury

the original in Lincoln's own hand, even has couldn't pasted section, from the confiscation eggs, where You can see that literally at them out and to them and there is even a spot. We can see Lincoln's thumbprint and glue on the document, hadn t sit enjoyed into it. This was for Lincoln, careful step and it isn't yachting when a powerful things as a teacher as your teaching, these documents is to see them. City of the role of historic figures That Lincoln was positive, making put, judgments thinking about his legacy Thinking about the importance of these events in the grand sweep of of

three their significance for the country. He would he wanted to make sure that their emancipation succeeded he wanted to make sure he dump public support that he had a strong legal position and that he navigate to emancipation, love preserving the role the border states that were member So the union- this is a very, very carefully executed by linking the first time that I actually read this. It was a transcript of the document, because I have a very hard time with historical handwriting and I realize until much later than those sections of the previous acts were literally cut out and pasted to the document, and that quickly became one of my favorite things about it was that he cut it out and pasted on their site would be exactly the word for word.

And then also not after rewrite the whole thing near here old fashioned before before long before about cutting in pieces of Microsoft word yet. So there is there's one copy of this document: it's in the president's own hands. What happened to that physical copy once he signed it, well in a later document was donated. And to a commission that was set up for the care of soldiers and medical care of soldiers, and the commission then held a auction and an abolitionist one, the document, an auction: he bought a lot of tickets and the auction raffle. And then the new legislature allocated funding to buy doc and from him

and that's how I came to be in possession of their state and near fears periodically share that I came in with the public and when I was shower New York, I was privileged to be a part of an effort where we develop and exhibit with I'm an emancipation proclamation and also a speech then the king, gave on that anniversary of the plunder Emancipation proclamation and we built and exhibit for kids, with the two documents and took it all around the state and it was during the time at the Lincoln Movie was coming out, and there is a lot of interest in when we had thousands of people in Thousands of students from Schools all over the state come to see this exhibit and come to see the document, and you can really see people appreciation for Lincoln and they

in future stand in the same spaces as this document, so I dont know if this is the case. Now, when I, when I was studying, you know, K through twelve american history, the citizen, the late. Nineteen eighties, early nineteen nineties and this whole idea that, with the preliminary emancipation proclamation and that there was a process of setting legal foundations in order to abolish the institution of slavery. That was skipped completely over and it seems more like the Emancipation proclamation, just kind of appeared out of whole cloth and and then the slaves or free, and that's that's not at all. What happened. Why do you think so much of that process is omitted from so many history. Lessons about the civil war, and the abolition of slavery. Why are you not?

as a country you know we so celebrate, Lincoln legacy and the notion of Lincoln as the emancipator, which is true and right, but there's also a new on spine that and they want to do. I tried to do when I turn highschool history and high school civics was the China have students a sense of the complexity of power, tax throughout our history. When the great things about the Hampton Musical is having its given a generation of Americans, a better understanding that these big in history on just two dimensional characters. I now currency that their complicated people in complicated times making political judgments

making gray shirt decisions and yet perspective, it makes a man Lincoln, even more heroic, because you understand that he had to have a carefully legal strategy, a carefully pilot nickel strategy to it Ambrosch emancipate. And and ultimately, to win the civil war nice things about some of those he sent book. Study on Lyndon, Johnson and The path to their civil rights, ACT and the Voting Rights act these Sporting achievements are the product not does sudden inspiration, but rather careful execution by very capable partnership.

And sometimes the word politician is put in a negative light but RAM Lincoln was a very, very capable partition, global. We get to the end of our interview, we're going to stop for one more brief word from a sponsor, and after we, from that sponsor. We are going to talk about why this particular document is so personally important to Secretary King when your car breaks down, do take it to a tree? mechanic with years of experience or do take it to a celebrity and why You're doing the same thing with your house, I'm Tom HOLLAND and I've a brand new podcast called thickness disruptive. A groundbreaking shielded deepens the most common exercising nutrition myths once and for all with science, I'm an extra

physiologist with a masters degree and exercise science and sports psychology- and I have, over thirty years experience in the fitness industry timing to weaken durrants athlete. Having completed twenty six, I may attract the lawns and over seventy marathons and ultra marathons around the earlier interviews with the best in the business the talk doctors, nutrition is professional athletes and in each episode of fitness disrupted, I will give you actionable advice. They can begin to use right away, no more wasted time and money following bad advice was in a fitness, rubbed it an apple podcast on the Iheart Radio APP or wherever you listen, podcast, well, let's get to be able to get a real secretary. King is going to talk about the documents, personal imports to him. I am as also how it fits into the greater arc of progress toward racial equality in the United States

so every person I spoke with, while arranging this interview with. You talked about this document being really important EU. So what does this document? We mean to you, and why is why? Is that preliminary Emancipation proclamation in particular that has so captivated you. You know for me it is a reflection of The ways in which the United States has fallen short of that the founding values, in others, we have to acknowledge that the United States began very with the institution of slavery as fundamental to how the country worked and There was a real tension between the institutional slavery of the promise.

The declaration of independence in the end and the notion the notion that all men are created, equal and so there was this gap and We all, as Americans, need to appreciate that complexity of our history around issues of race, at the same time I can also illustrates FR. Mr President, often talked about those the trajectory of America towards greater equality. Greater opportunity overtime, and so period than civil war and reconstruction are merely a second birth of the United States, and when you look at the thirteen fourteen, fifteen amendments, surely acts of the civil war in reconstruction they expanded. Definition of America

the guy in american democracy and this document the very much a part of that journey nonetheless pieces. This document is also about complexity of government. The importance of leaders figure out how to bring the public along things that are hard the important it is having a good political show, legal strategy, as well as moral, higher purpose and Lincoln, really combined. All of those things, and you see that very much in this document, any any of it. From January emancipation, proclamation generating Maxie three. So is there anything else about this document or its history that you really think that listeners to our shared should now

You know, I learned one thing on stages as being as a teacher, I misunderstood. Power in students engaging with primary source documents. Wanting to read a textbook and what the textbook might say, but it's another to delve into historical document, and we really appreciate With the author was trying to accomplish the choices the author made I can imagine phone unit compared eyes dove, primary Emancipation proclamation the answers, proclamation of January eighteen, sixty three, the gettysburg address The second inaugural address the thirteen fourteen. If these amendments are just study through those powerful historic on tax, and it can.

The way to inspire students both abound literacy and about Social said, also can be a way to help. You didn't see the new ones in our history. Thank you. So much for taking the time to speak with us today was a pleasure to have you on this. Thanks respond to talk with you and thanks for what you do make ensure folks are learning about. Our history travel trade able together? Thank you so much the Secretary Gang Gas, incredibly just that that was a pleasure of conversation to have. Thank you so much to the folks, the Department of Education who got in touch with us and helped arranged this interview. In the first place, we have failed are we on our website. We can get a glimpse of what this document looks like complete with the cut and pasted parts.

Other of other acts that were pasted on there. We will also link, see more information, about it, including the full text for people who want to read the whole thing? He doesn't listen We can enjoy the m actually going to eat two pieces of list for male their short and are related to each other and they are aligned with same theme of several things that we heard about following our butter versus margarine podcast and the first is from Goldie Goldie said listen to the butter and margarine Pakistan? I have a question in your research: did you come across any requested or granted exceptions to margarine, but margarine bans for religious or health reasons, raised in a kosher home, and if we didn't have margarine, we would have been unable to have mashed potatoes with our meat meals, among other things, by the way I your podcast thanks. Thank! U yours, Goldie then, other is from dressed in and Jason

I really enjoy this episode, except the part about pink merger in which seems horrendous, I'm chuckling because no, the Holly disagrees with the idea that paint margin is horrendous. To return to the letter Jason says well, not you as I believe there is a Jew day. A friend to the story. Margarine opened a whole new chapter, four kosher cuts as it was not dairy but could be used in a recipe as if it was a butter substitute when not made from animal fats or containing milk. Milk salads. Here's some backup. Many have linked to an article that articles actually really fascinating, because it is an article about one year, when there was a shortage of kosher margarine and it threatens to ruin a lot of pass over me, because there is no kosher for pass over margarine available of stars.

This is so interesting, yeah. So number one did not know what go the ask about Jason and has talked about neither of those things came up in the research at all in part. Because a lot of this, we were talking about was when my therein was made from beef, tallow and daring A little re milk for flavors, though that would not have been considered kosher was much later in modern history that, like kosher margins, did come out. That would have been appropriate for use in closer cooking. So I started looking into this really super interesting. The first kosher margarine was introduced in Europe in nineteen o four, but for the most part for a few his kosher mandarins were made being made locally and businesses. I am like towns and communities that had a large jewish populations there maiden much smaller batches and not so much available in the United States in the EU, it states. The

view of margarine into closer cooking, was in team eleven with the introduction of Crisco. We don't think of risk go as margarine or I didn't. Until I looked into this Chris even though it is advertised as vegetable shortening is basically a greasy white murderin, although sometimes its yellow. Sometimes they make a yellow to look like butter. So I guess you that, where we made an incident, ever connected firm head there. You didn't connect to me at all It seemed a lot of a jewish texts in terms of of what they could make, so it's it's that was really when, That was really when, when things that were more butter like started being introduced, and more jewish cooking, and it's one of those things where, when I started looking into this a lot of people sort of talked about it,

we re sort of taken for granted that, like that, had always been the way that that Accoucheur home worked even with only in nineteen eleven r r after the margin was introduced into jewish cooking? Soon, fascinating? I do not. I started looking specifically to try to find if there were like religious and exemptions to margarine bands and it seems like at least from what I can gather that by that point the law had progressed so that it most places that were banning margin We're only banning, yellow margarine, seek is still get, margarine can be yellow right. So they wouldn't really have needed to be an exemption because you can still get it. It just wasn't, yellow so thing to all the facts that road and we got we got, I would say for other emails that we're about margarine and jewish cooking of many of the folks. I now who are jewish dont, really keep kosher

kitchens- and so it did not ever occur to me at all. Yeah me there, I you know, and I will certainly confess what I know about kosher cooking is is very nominal. But yes, it never would have even crossed my mind yet so thanks thing, who are the folks who wrote us in with that other perspective there. If you would like to write to us where a history pie, gas, it has two weeks dot com were also on Facebook at Facebook, dotcom flashpoints than history, not on twitter, it missed in history. Our tumblr is most in history that tumblr dot com, and we are also I'm Pinterest at Paris, DOT, com, Flash missed in history, our instagram Mr History, at all the things except for emulator answer, MR history, fewer like to learn more about, we talked about. They come to our parent companies website. It is how stuff works dot com, if I'm lots of information about anything your heart desires. You can also come to our website missed in history, dot com and you will find show notes, were out episode tell you I have worked on in the show,

we will put links about their preliminary its major proclamation. Where pictures of the full text in all that we also when archive of every episode the high- and I have ever done one more time before we go. What to think. You're a king and the staff at the Department of Education who learned of this whole interview, because it was great, you can do,

all of these things and so much more. How superstar com movements in history on the moral and thousands of others is that most of works? How low bunnies MRS Ard Marine, you may know me from Chelsea lately or as Regina Sinclair on insatiable. I want to tell you about my comedy podcast: will you accept this rose, which is new to the eye heart radio podcast network? We re cap every season, the bachelor franchise, including the bachelor, the bachelor at an bachelor in Paradise. We bring in bachelor super fans, including last bass, Nicky Glaser, Debbie, Ryan and more catch. Our first episode on January eighth and listen to will you accept this rose on the icon, radio, app apple pie CAS or wherever you get your part cast