Today we revisit an episode from 2009 in preparation for a new episode coming this week about the Babington Plot. Although they were cousins, Elizabeth I and Mary Stuart had little in the way of familial affection. Previous hosts Katie and Sarah take a closer look at the infamous rivalry between Mary Stuart and Elizabeth I.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Happy Saturday. Everyone. We have a new episode of the show coming out this week, but is about Mary Queen of Scots thanks to the folks that focus features. They approached us about doing an episode,
that would tie to their new film, which is also called Mary Queen of Scots, and comes out in the U S on December, seventh, twenty eighteen or of coming up with
it is about the Babington plot against Queen Elizabeth and the trial for treason that lead to marries beheading
the ongoing rivalry between Elizabeth and Mary is, of course, a contributing factor to all of that. So we wanted to share today's episode from the archives or listeners. You have not heard it the episode as from two thousand nine, its by previous hosts, Katy and Sarah, and for folks who are eager
for even more Mary Stuart. You can also search our archive for the twenty ten episode on the death of her husband. Lord Darnley work
to stuff. You missed in history class from how stupid
hello and welcome to the podcast I'm taking a and I'm Sarah dowdy. We recently did a part
and Queen Elizabeth first, and it got to thinking about her
important relationships. While she was queen and today we're gonna fuck
on her relationship with her cousin and fellow queen, Mary Stuart, possibly her greatest rival
and since we already talked about Elizabeth early life, let's talk a little bit about Mary Stewards, unlike a list
ass. She was born a queen. She
the child of King James, the fifth of Scotland and his french wife, Mary of GPS, but her father died six days after her birth and this causes a little trouble for baby Mary,
it does her grandmother is the sister of Henry the eighth, so
here, immediately makes an attempt to control her, but the red
say instead goes to her mother Henry
excited and pursues, what's called the rough wooing between his young sign and marry her
to make an alliance their merit
his mother instead sensor off to France to be raised in the court of
Henry the second and Catherine Domenici- and this was the
nicest most luxurious court in Europe at the time. So merry was in good hands and she had a lot of french relatives there.
again, unlike Elizabeth, she had a fairly
and she thinks it wasn't fondly, but more in a
Mary grows up to be a beautiful young lady she's about five eleven very tall remarkably tall for the renaissance. Yes, she's got
red gold, hair and amber eyes, yeah Mary
really be perfect Renaissance princess
She finally marries Henry and Katharine's eldest son, Francis and fifteen fifty eight, and they like each other
You ve been raised pretty much as siblings, but it's the marriage probably isn't consummated he's
a few years younger than her in his very sickly and cheating
have him fondly, but more in a brotherly sort of way than in a husband lay sort of way, also in fifteen fifty eight, where the parallel Start Elizabeth, the first sends to the throne
so merry through the tutor line is neck
in line, but Henry had an order of succession that had muddled things up a bit Catholics.
Sleep would consider Mary, the queen of England already because Elizabeth.
they. They don't recognize Elizabeth parents, marriage, that of
Henry, the eighth to Anne Boleyn. So to them, Elizabeth is a core dozens bastard right, an fifteen, fifty nine Frances becomes king and Mary is his queen Cor
saw it and she begins. Putting on air is, as far as this whole, queen of England, things go because she's safe, comfortable and powerful and France. She has very poor
full in laws and she can
do what she wants with impunity somewhere else. She certainly doesn't dreaded disabuse anybody of the idea that she's, the rightful queen of England G in France,
actually start quartering their arms with that of England, so their proclaiming them
the rulers of France, Scotland and England, which is not something
That's gonna make Elizabeth very happy now and in a sense of course, Mary by Henry's order of succession had been disinherited or her line had been so this does make sense, but the trouble between the two
queens begins around fifteen sixty when Mary refuses to sign the Treaty of Edinburgh in the basin
back story on that there has been a long alliance between France and Scotland and its.
Less and less popular with the increasingly
Persistent scottish lords, who are ready to help
They themselves free to France and England, backs them, and they put together
treaty of Edinburgh and
if Mary, as Queen concert of France as well as Queen of Scotland, can't can't advocate breaking up this,
asian ship, she embodies. This relationship, rain and she'd also have two then officially recognised Elizabeth as the Queen of England. Instead of herself, its
It amounts to renouncing her own claim to the english throne,
further muddling matters at the time her husband, Francis dies of an ear infection, so species
eighteen she's dowager queen and france-
time for Mary to return home to Scotland. Where again she hasn't bands and she was a baby so things.
Where'd you get more personal around now. She asks Elizabeth for safe conduct cross
the channel should she be forced to land on English. Soil Elizabeth gives them
pretty snappy answer which should actually
sales before she can even receive it, but there would be no safe kind.
that in no welcome for the queen of Scots and her cousins realm until she had fulfilled her obligations by ratifying the treaty, as she was an honour bound to do.
Mary was pretty much just sorry, she'd ass. Here I was offended by this response, and the international community also wasn't thrilled with Elizabeth Behaviour. They thought
she's, hassling, her young, beautiful, newly widowed cousin and some so can we read write
so Elizabeth comes
from that and tries to play nice and tells marry that, in fact, they do hubby sisterly friendship and,
After all, she didn't send her navy I've. It very benevolent, via the essential fact here, is that Mary as a team
we in concert over in France is one thing to Elizabeth, but
Mary, Queen of Scots back on the marriage market is another issue entirely right, because
Mary. Coming back to Scotland, Elizabeth now has a dynastic threat. There's all
the possibility of religious conflict, because Mary had told us
hope she intended to restore the catholic faith to Scotland, and it has gone protestant and wraps, and Elizabeth is a staunch protestant as well, and she was also extremely pretty extremely powerful and a rival to all of us
the deaths potential soon Elizabeth isn't the most eligible queen in Europe anywhere and not really bug fur but
On the other hand, she sees Mary as a potential compatriot. She has her cousin after all,
and she's. A fellow female monarch was which is a very unique situation to be in
So merry returns Scotland and fifteen sixty one and her
if as a potential queen concert in this fancy, french court has made it very difficult for her to know how to run things. She simply hasn't been re.
That way and she doesn't have the tools she needs to have. A powerful issue needs to be shit.
He hasn't been raised and educated as a prince she's, been educated as us as
we in concert and that's a very different different job and most
troublesome of all are these scottish nobles
scottish nobles are really difficult
deal with their more interested in flapping up their own feathers kind of in having private feuds. There always feuding with each other
then supporting the crown, and we have to consider two. There is better
regency well. The queen has been in a minority for eighteen year, so they have
had a strong ruler for a generation,
Marriage is ok, at least at first with her illegitimate half brother James
of more I she comes,
this sort of policy of religious tolerance. So at least in that respect, there's no more fighting or things are at somewhat of a piece,
cars religion she can practise her catholic religion, but not pull up a mere
Tudor, for instance, and have everyone burned at the stake, and some people are
happy to have her there, because again they found that regency. For so long they haven't had a monarch around in a law,
time, and she is beautiful and charming and
I want to be around so you know maybe she'll be good for Scotland after all, and when she gets back to Scotland, she immediately starts working on Elizabeth to be named Elizabeth AIR, of which
As we said earlier by birth, she she would be.
But she's sort of downgraded. Her ambitions at this point she's not trying to be named she's Mona, calling myself Queen of England now or quartering her arm. She just wants to be Elizabeth AIR and me.
likes Elizabeth as well. This aren't just complicated feelings on Elizabeth Part, because
on one hand, Elizabeth has been helping the Protestants cause trouble for Mary and Scotland, but friendly
relationships will only help
both realize it would benefit them to be friendly right, but Elizabeth, can't name
marry her air, and this is what's at least someone at the crux
of their relationship, because that's one of the reasons Elisabeth never wanted to get married at all. She didn't want to name and air in her lifetime because it would be a threat to her and there's a really good quote about.
Yeah. She says thank you that I could live
my winding sheet, when, as examples show,
since we cannot even love their children that are to succeed them
he goes on to say that she's been a witness.
to this that this desire
to overthrow the current prince with whoever wherever the air is
something she seen in her sisters lifetime. When
A tutor was queen. People were saying it's time for Elizabeth Elizabeth should be clean instead, so she knows what it's like.
And it was so. Her fear and reluctance in that context makes sense with her being friends with Mary, but they are quite
Cordial, at least for a time,
and Mary is even epic courtly on seeing her cousin Elizabeth Portrait, she said she wished that one of them was a man so that their kingdoms could be united by marital alliances, which we
I was really interesting because, of course, that is
How you played the game
Then you married off eligible people to create these political ally.
Says, but when you had these two to single clean, you can't.
Still me. Do it what's gonna happen, one of them is going to win and will see which one a little bit later,
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You can find it at Baja MAR the Bahamas most exciting,
Larry Destination, the resort is home to over four
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eleven glorious landscape pools acres of prestige, each one
and a soothing esper spot offer endless relaxation, while guess fine through
that Burma Casino an array of high energy night spots and at the royal blew the mode
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so people really want really want to meet each other. They come. They come pretty close to it in fifteen. Sixty two, but a religious war between the Catholic, some Huguenots in France, upsets the meeting and there really do
stated by Mary apparently cried all day and with only consoled when somebody told her that Elizabeth was jesting as ups
so there is a real personal element to this relationship to their curious about each other, but
thorn and their relationship, of course, is the fact that they both are to single queens
Elizabeth has, of course, set herself up as the Virgin Queen a reputation. She's worked very hard to maintain, whereas Miriam
their hand. Temperamental ie is unsuited to be single. She doesn't want to be and
He also has to think about the interests of Scotland. It is in our interests to get married but of course, any choice. She made
Much like Elizabeth is pretty much impossible. Yeah Elizabeth things
she'll, be ok with marries choice
long as somebody agreeable to the English, namely not a catholic prince,
Spain, Austria, France, which would be a very powerful alliance. That Elizabeth does not want to happen
so instead she offers up a man named Robert Dudley and we'll talk about him more and another podcast and relationship to Elizabeth. But he was Elizabeth Great,
love. So this is a weird match high and it was also an insulting one to marry because Dudley was of low birth and he's tainted
because he's implicated in the very mysterious death of his wife. So
Mary is genuinely insulted by this idea of a man, is kind of Elizabeth. Reject Elizabeth can't marry him herself at this point and Dudley
not interested in this match either. So they want to move to Scotland and leave Elizabeth now assertion
Game playing a little bit and Mary herself is trying to arrange something with Don Carla
who is Philip the seconds and its good. This doesn't work
Spain Don Carlos, is not a great guy yeah so
Mary declines an invitation to meet with Elizabeth, which of course, greatly offends Elizabeth and eventual
marries. Advisers, writer, Elizabeth
advise my guys or call your guys and tell
that Mary won't even consider marrying Dudley unless Elizabeth would settle the succession on her and after that, allows of his quiet.
The game is over Mary has has called her on it, basically that at this,
and another possible suitor enters the game, and his name is Lord Darnley, so Lord dark
we made a little shot at Mary when she was first
widowed his mother sent him to France to press his suit with with
Mary. She wasn't interested at the time, but Elizabeth was very
disturbed by this, because Lord Darnley is also a tutor claim. It he's a cousin of Marries Elizabeth,
Don't want any consolidation of the tutor claims. So when Darnley returns
France. She has him and his mother arrested, but by this time they ve patch things
Elizabeth is ok with them again. She, let's start
go to Scotland on family business, whatever that might be and its
suspicious here, because she knows what Donnelly's intention, as regarding Mary, not honourable,
once put it that way, or at least on anyone here, Mary Mary, but he's not an honourable guy. There are several accounts of him being
sickly, someone who's, really nice on the
outside, and when you get to know him, you realize just how I did he ask vicious here. So it's kind of suspicious that Elizabeth Assent
him. She might know how they saw plays out made an be
planning this is something that could possibly ruler mayor Airy, so three nights
before Darnley arrives. Spectral warriors are seen fighting in the streets of Edinburgh at midnight, and I think we can all agree that a bad omen and soon enough Mary welcomes
and soon enough falls in love with him. There, both young they're, both very attractive and
Katy said earlier. Being single does not suit Mary and they announced their engagement. And then I love this though Elizabeth has
Let Darnley go to Scotland knowing what might happen, but she completely plays down
and is shocked by the engagement and awry
sternly, mother and
Mary quite quite undressed,
Annabelle using please. I thought you wanted me to marry an english guy, and I am
they get married in July of fifteen sixty five and it is quickly reveal to marry
She has made a very bad choice. Darnley is simply not a good guy and
It's not just her who decides to hate him. It's all of these. Scottish Lord is contentious lords, do not like Darnley and
get really bad by March. Fifteen sixty six so less than a year after the marriage for in the retail murder
darnley and other lords plot,
to murder, marries favorite in front of her she's heavily pregnant by this point and their hoping that shall be so shocked by seeing this man killed in front of her at her feet. Essentially, that shall be debilitated and Darnley will
actors, maybe regent or maybe a king and just completely delusional thinking, because no one would have ever let that happen again. They hated him. So
Mary is confined for a few days, and she is my
shhh brighter than her somewhat Dinwiddie husband, and she convinces him that
Spirit. We are going to go after him, knacks there's no way he's gonna, be a region or a co ruler, something now
He gets all of his conspirators names out of him and they end up escaping through servant quarters and ride twenty five miles to safety once again, well, she's heavily pregnant. The relation.
between Elizabeth and Mary, actually improve after this. After obviously, Elizabeth was disappointed with Marries choice of husband and things have gone a little frosty.
But Elizabeth is so horrified that something like
what happened in front of a fellow sovereign queen and anointed queen that she warms up to me
right and when Mary gives birth to her son James in June fifteen sixty sex. She named Elizabeth as the godmother and in a
Fine little story. Elizabeth sends a gold font for the baby, but not realising that the baptism took place a few months after the birth font. She sent me
much too small she's, really embarrassing that little baby, but the birth doesn't
help Mary and Darnley reconcile and
she starting to think. Ok, I have a male air. How can I get rid of this husband? She was really upset about the prospect of spending her
he's with him, but a no is out of the question, because that would mean that James is illegitimate and she can't do that. She needs an air, so her auctions are pretty much too.
worse or arresting him for treason, but
the question is answered for her and fifteen sixty seven. So on the night of February knife
Mary is supposed to spend the night with Darnley.
But she realizes at the last minute that she has a mask to attend and goes out. Meanwhile, darn leaves room is blown up seriously.
and he runs out into the night. Naked
is strangled too that that's
quite a story, and we're going to talk about it more later, because it's too good to pass up now. That'll be indifferent podcast, but after his death,
Mary doesn't conduct herself in the wisest manner. In fact, she marries
chief suspect, James Hepburn, who is the fourth or our Bothwell just three months after
the death and also after he abduct and ravished her according to accounts in that's always been unclear. Was it a willing abduction or did this guy just stealer for Real
he's married at the time, so he's granted divorced marry her. So again thing
looking so great as far as marries choice.
They're going, but she may just
have been very soon
Sad at that point, she's an ill health. She needs a strong man to help her manage Scotland, she's already married once badly and she's. You know got her. Aaron has to figure out
how she's going to live? Regular relief but Elizabeth is disgusted by marries actions and
she even compared them to her own relation with her true love, Dudley and
his wife's mysterious death and how she's conducted herself so properly after this contrasted with Mary running away with,
sky Elizabeth even wants little Prince James, send to England, and so she can rear him under her protection, rather than him being with Mary, and this strange new man. This episode has brought you buy office depot offers Debo as supplies and services for businesses of any size. Are you speak to this personally? As a college student, when I was a business, the size of one office Debo provides twenty four seven tech support. It lets you print your own marketing materials and it can help you design your office with a bunch of furniture solutions. They also have exactly the supplies. Your office needs from your home office
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I had office depot dot com, but Mary and Bothwell Part Ways and Jean Fifteenth fifteen sixty seven he's forest
to exile and imprisonment by those lords who you know having
just gotten rid of Darnley they're, not willing to to put up with Bothwell,
but Mary herself is imprisoned on a tiny island. In the middle of a lock and deposed in favour of her one year, old, son, James and Elizabeth is
completely outrage. She was outraged by marries actions to begin with, but now she's
more outraged by what the scottish lords have done by deposing Mary, because Elizabeth has very strong viewpoints about again appropriate behaviour, one
and about the monarchy and how to reach it clean, a sovereign- and this was simply an appropriate and
historians have suggested that if Elizabeth hadn't protested so much against their actions and the scottish lords would have executed Meredith without much do at all in
That really is the crux of their relationship this. This is. Why
Elizabeth hesitates over the merry question for so long because actively trying to depose or sent
to death, a fellow monarch sets of real
it's not something Elizabeth wants to get into. But in contrast, all these helpful thing she's doing
at the same time, in March of fifteen sixty eight Elizabeth is eyeing, marries jewels, which of course, have been put up for auction and she out bid
Catherine Domenici, for her pearls and you'll, see them and several state portrait fluid clothes.
Marries briefly Library
the following year and tries to seek refuge in England
her cousin Alice, but she's, probably thinking Elizabeth, has been pretty nice and helpful. Lately
this is a really bad move, because Elizabeth uses as an excuse
issues surrounding Darnley murder and up
Mary and a series of prisons for the next eighteen years and the english tribunal.
Delivers the only verdict they can against Mary, because there's nothing that can be proved, but Elizabeth can't let her go either because marry at this point has gotten interested again and claiming the English thrown, because she doesn't want the Scottish one back, and I mean really would you pretty understandable?
and had the tempo of her life has changed at this point. She's gone from being this romantic adventurous.
Figure in this whirlwind, liveliest, fleeing on horseback, exactly to spending twenty years in prison, practising her religion and working on her embroidery, yeah, she's,
her embroidery is kind of an interesting side. No, there
sleep and books, written solely
about marries embroidery. She was really good at it.
But she would use symbolism I've. I really liked rendering it
ginger cat playing with a mouse which was a reference to their red, haired and listen
toying with poor little mouse Mary, but most of her time
in prison is really sad and her health suffers
beauty diminishes and she resolved to get out. First by pleading with Elizabeth,
also she is scheming from the very beginning, Elizabeth
chief adviser, actually warns her. The queen of sky
is, and always shall be, a dangerous person to your estate, and that is very much true.
Mary had started plodding against Elizabeth, almost ass, soon ass. She was in England and on Fourchan
Lee she's the number one hope for English Catholic, so basically any
rebellion? You have that's trying to unseat Elizabeth is gonna. Look to marry as the woman to put on the throne.
in her stead and one of the plots and fifteen seventy was a big deal. The ridolfi plot, which was here
average run of the mill catholic plot to assassinate Elizabeth and replace her with Mary, but after this particular event, Elizabeth, never
can considers restoring Mary Ann
recognizes James, the sixth as king of Scotland, but Mary
tighter around fifteen eighty four she's been living as a queen imprisoned, but it
it goes into major lockdown mode by this point
There are also new laws against plodding treason in England by this point, and Elizabeth is afraid that she
They have to kill Mary under them and goes to the now grown James and asks if you and your mother would be willing to co role and he's unwilling to do this, he's seeing a future for himself as not only king of Scotland but King of England,
and Elizabeth tries to hide this betrayal from Mary, which was kind, but
at the end finally happens in a plot that was sent through beer barrels. Mary is under this heavy security, but these beer barrels are like the one one chink in the armor, but even then, even after yet another plot comes up were its clear to Elizabeth Mary is still conspiring against her. She waivers for months about doing anything about it should,
even declares. I am not free, but a captive. She knows that their lives
entwined together forever and fight
Lee, though, marries execute
in February eighth, fifteen. Eighty seven and she goes to her death in a
a dignified manner.
when the fact of her death is broken to Elizabeth she's. Almost hysterical
dresses and morning she cries. She rages against those who drove her to do this so much so that her advisers get out of town because worry rather original, do right and she's also afraid, truly deeply afraid that God will punish her for what she has done and she's parted
is certainly personal. This was a hard personal decision for Elizabeth to make
she's, also worried that her international reputation will be shot, that she's put catholic martyr to death, not just at a treasonous clean
and some of this rage and these crying
or to show the world that she's upset by the US so
while the relationship between the vessel and the rose came to a bloody and be intra
The thing is that, despite this long history, they have with one another they ve never met no end
Mary never stopped pleading for personal contacts. She was a very charming woman and she was
that she could charm her cousin to and Elizabeth was interested at first.
yes, but became more and more distant and she's she's, afraid of the charm, she's, afraid
Mary Wool, enchant her or worse upstage, her be
dear and more impressive than the great Queen Elizabeth. She said at one point
There is something sublime and the words and bearing the queen of Scots that constrains even her enemies to speak, while of her and against
They never met. They had the opportunity to make the other one larger than life and their minds. Less excuse me more than human here and
it's funny to to consider their reputations Elizabeth always played up
masculinity of her strength, even though she was a very emotional woman
Mary, has always been seen as the most
no one, even though honestly
she's more ruthless. She would have seen Elizabeth murdered because she was so desperate. Well, Elisabeth takes forever to sentence her to death, so between us
battle of the rival queens. They both ends.
Winning and losing, and the end Elisabeth makes James her error and every,
british monarch. Since then has been a descendant of Mary, but James, of course was a protestant air which was the cause dear to Elizabeth Heart and
first conclusion to this story, is that
when James becomes king. He brings his mother's remains too Westminster Abbey and bill.
a magnificent marble tomb for the Lady Chapel,
With a scottish lion at her feet,
tomb lies just across the aisle from you guessed it that of Elizabeth together forever.
So we will end with the words of Elizabeth who wrote a sonnet about Mary and said the dog,
of debate that each discord death so shall reap no gain where form a rule had taught still peace.
Thank you. So much for joint action on Saturday,
you have heard an email address or a facebook url or something similar over the course of today's episode. Since it is from the that might be out of date now you can email us at history, podcast at how stuff works, dot com and you can
and it's all over social media at missed in history, and you can subscribe to arson,
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