We live in a time where computers can beat the best humans in the world at chess, checkers, poker and video games. But these games are really just demonstrations of how intelligent our machines are growing. They’re growing more intelligent by the hour. With special guest, Tech Stuff's Jonathan Strickland.
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Are you a fair pop culture? Are you up on game? Do you know the labs, if not the polar show, parkers keeping you in the know, with the latest, your favorite celebrities, current events and providing free game? Solicitors? Indeed, ok visualize basket powers when your baby, the obvious, though so loud and clear, for bribery things now make sure you check this out on a brand new package of all sorts of able. Now our radio aware we do get your packets welcome to stop. You should know from house to House works, tat pain, welcome, new, the Pakistan Josh,
there's Charles of each up Bryant, there's Jerry over there, I'm gonna come out on top
making fun of me for some weird reason: vaguely
weird ways: MRI the check. Our story for gay men. Take us back to these. Seventeen seventy soon
and those swing in town and Vienna not Virginia.
Not by Anna Georgia, which you know it's how they pronounced lion by in a sausage is right: Vienna, Austria, you ve, been there, be in Austria, now been a Brussels. I was pretty close, Vienna's lovely, I'm sure. I think it's a lovely Brussels, very clean, lovely town, I remember being very clean.
Yeah very clean gorgeous architecture, weird little angled side streets, there very narrow, very pretty too so or in Vienna, and there is a dude skull
about going to the Royal Palace in Vienna? His name is Wolfgang VON component
and he's an inventor is an engineer, he's a pretty sharp dude and he's got with him
What would come to be known as the Turk, but he called it. The mechanical Turk, more the automaton chess player in this way
was, it was a. It was a wooden figure that move mechanically seated at a cabinet and on top of the cabinet was achieved
bored and when he brought it out to show to the royal court he would it was cool kind of, but nothing me they hadn't seen before, because automata it was kind of it.
Thing by then yeah people love the building knees
engineering, these automata machines do berries things and people just knocked out by the fact that he knew I hide these gears and lubbers behind would or a cloth, and it looks as though there is a real wound that real. But you know
that is like a real machine yeah, but not they weren't fooled. Anything like is that a real man? It was no it. It was for their time it was so advance. Looking that it's like a seeing Ex Mckenna in the movie theater
to make sense? You know it just makes his boot emergency, like ex marking and being like I've. Seen this before his isn't anything special, ok, yeah, they say
to be clear. Look like a is it's all Tarzan from Big Zol tar, Sultan
I don't know it's one of those two one of those two like this disguise wearing a turban and it's in a glass cases in like a bust, like you know like a year just up thing: yea seated at this does cabinet, so there's no need for leg.
Or anything like that. But the thing this is what was amazing about the the Turk. He could play chess, any
plates has really well so yeah. He was like.
Automaton removed. I heard you jerk year whatever, but he could play you in chess, which was a huge, huge advance at the time
like this is something that would come up again until the ninety nineties. More than
hundred years later? This thing this automaton
could play a human being and chest and beat them. We yet look,
like when the game started it when looked down at the chess Board and lodging cock his head like me, what should my purse move be right and if people by love this part, if people tried to cheat apparently Napoleon tried to cheat the saying: is this guy? He debuted it to be in these cord
but then it can't. You know it one on world tour and he was even it was taken over by a successor to the guy who toured with it even further and that's for the stuff they did. They loved it because they were like this is crazy. I can't believe what I'm seeing most people that were
taken in by their like there's some trick here? Azure Baviaan compelling and the guy
came after my arm. His name they would, they would demonstrate, could open this cabinet and you can see all the key, the workings of the mechanical Turk inside right. So what I'll say it as its essence, this since a cheat her?
Napoleon supposedly did it would you know Napoleon, would move a piece out of Turner illegally or something this dude, the Turk Turk. One hundred and eighty two would pick up the chess piece move it back as if to say like no. No,
Billina to what you're doing and then, if the person attempted
move it again. How many times age, with three times of sleep with just go and wipe his hand across the board, knock off all the pieces game over right, which is pretty great yeah. It's a nice little
future yet has been, but by aid even showed even more that this thing was thinking for itself. Yeah, that's the key here right sure: chess,
for a very long time, viewed as only something that a human would be capable of, because it took a human intellect, and there is actually a guy in english engineer,.
I think he was a mechanical engineer. His name was rubber Willis. He said that chest was enclosed, the province of intellect alone.
So the idea that there is this automaton playing chess blue people away area, but again people figured out
like ok, there's something going on here. We think that VON Temple in is,
drawing this thing remotely, somehow it using magnets or whatever other people hit upon the idea
there is a small person inside the cabinet
Who would hide when the cab, when the workings word were showing the cabinet was open to show the workings there and then
the camera was closed. Again, a mechanical Turk started playing the person and crawled back out. It was actually controlling it. This seems to be the case that there was a person controlling it, but the idea that it was,
It was a machine that could think and beat humans in chess headline cannot unsettling implications here. This author, Philip thickness, eight name british author
sure Philip sickness. He he said, and you know people like you said all those more complicated explanations in this article III sent astutely points out that he followed outcomes. Razor and basically said he's got little kid in there you got little by little Bobby Fisher and their right. That's really get at chess and that's what's going on, and other people speculated that other little people might be in their adult to it fit in there. But then you know there's the explanation that he he would open it up and shine a candle around and say you know nothing to see here
everyone. So what's shall we reveal the real deal sure I think I did very well. Thank you spell it out, as I was
There was a little person there, not just one little person
They would travel around and recruit people? Yes, people would guitar been in there or believe
get about him and they d starve and have to replace him, but it really was a trick. There was a little person in there. They did. The same thing is like the magic acts you know when they saw a person in half its that delay
he just gets into a tiny little ball right and one section of that box. But my thing is this: like this is not a satisfying explanation in each honey, it's great! How did the person keep up with the board above
Well, I mean some pattern of ever proved exactly how it was going to I'm saying
ok, whether or not I think that the daughter arms are, the Turk was just
hollowed out and you you had just put your arms through the arm.
Oh, no, you in your opinion that Turkey should become the Turk. Ok, when the turkish fuse. That's what some people thought. I think this will agree,
imposed, thought to love. You think I'd get me right power. Other people thought that there were the is the link
Person was underneath the in the cabinet operating
with levers and stuff like that there could have been a mirror her something you know. I guess like a little news. Alice gothic mirror falsehoods. Getting me is how would they keep up with the game right? Are you can keep track of the game, but how could you see where the
person moved. You had. No, are you move, but you wouldn't be able to see where the other person that's it. I dont get just mirrors smoke and mirrors. Maybe so, but the point is as it was. A fake
of fraud, but it ransom really big questions about the
the idea of a machine beating a person at something like chess, yeah,
and it really pizza d mind of one Charles Babbage. He was, he was a kid or young, at least at the time when he saw the Turk in person
and a few years afterward he began work on something called the difference engine which was a machine that he designed to to calculate mathematics automatically. So at some point to this is kind of maybe the beginnings of humans trying to create a I well yeah would
Babbage is differential machine or difference machine yet difference engine, but at the very least, what this is the first that I know of example, of man versus machine, even though it was really man versus man, because it was a man in the machine right, it was a fraud near, but it was it. It spark that idea. It definitely did and that's something that like chess in particular, is always
Didn't like this idea of like. If you can teach a machine to play chess you I really achieved a milestone and there's been. No plenty of programmes was fists most some, notably deep blue, which will talk about, but there's there's been. This idea
that, like part of a, I, is chess teaching in check here, but the thing
the people who develop a I never set out to make a chess playing a I'd just to make a machine. They can play chess right. That's not the point.
Just as always been this way to demonstrate the progress of artificial Intel yeah cause, it's a complex game that you can't just programme it like it. Almost
best to learn. Well, it depends on how you come out of that first, so initially they did try to program it. Okay, there is this from basically one thousand nine hundred and fifty two
Bowser MID like about sea, one thousand nine hundred and fifty two two thousand and ten sixty years right. That is how they approached ai in chess. Is you figure out how to break chest down and explained
to a computer and what, if you could? Ideally, you would have this this computer, this aid eyes artificial intelligence, be able to think about the outcome of every pulse,
all every possible outcome of a move before making it right? That's just not possible. Still today would not have computers that can do that. Right
so what you have to do- is figure out how to create short cuts for the machine, give it best practices that kind of thing, and that was actually
play doubt in nineteen? Fifty by a guy named Claude, Shannon who's, the Father of information theory, and he wrote up a paper
with a pretty on the nose title called programming, a computer for playing chess and yet to say it like that, when you say it's got a question mark at the right, but he laid out to big things: one is creating a fund
and of the different moves, and then another one is called a many max and those were the two
things that chain and laid out, and they established about fifty or sixty years of development in teaching and I to play chess. Yes, this evaluation function is just sort of the base, the very best
This of it all can wear. It starts witches you about, cannot to give a number create an numerical evaluation based on the state of the board. At that moment, right,
and assign a real number evaluation to it. So the highest number that you would shoot for is obviously getting checkmate. Getting a king and checkmate right
so what you ve just done now is it by assigning in number to a state like the peace
on a board or you
what you ve done is to say like shoe for this number,
the higher the number like you're gonna, give the say either rule now the higher the number, the more desirable that this move that could lead to that higher number function, evaluation function as what you want to do right, like capture the night or capture the
in capture the queen would have a higher evaluation number right. Exactly so
the function and there's another one called the many max here. This is pretty.
Or you want to minimize the maximum- and this is another short cut- that they taught computers, the maximum lost. That is right. So what they? What they tell computers used, is so you
computer can look through an entire game. Every possible outcome right by what you there are computers. They can
look pretty far down the line at every possible outcome and what you can say is ok
why want to find the evaluation function? That is the worst case scenario, the maximum loss and then find
the move that will minimize the possibility for their outcome, yeah by
This is the only limited by a programming power, but by looking not only at the state of the.
Right now, but if I make this move- and I move that the pond to the spot, what are the next like three moves? Possibly that could happen as a result of this move right and you're only limited, like I said, by programming power. So obviously the more juicy have the more
moves ahead, that you can look exactly and then they just shy away from ones with a higher function. Number exactly.
Or lower function number, depending on how you ve programmed it right, but they they they're, making these decisions based on these rules
there's other things you can do like little short cuts to say. If, if, if a young a decision tree leads to a you, the other players, king being in check me, don't you
think about that move any further, don't evaluating longer disobey in it, because we would never want to make that move right, there's only short as you can do and that's what they did to teach computers. That's why I'm deep blue did when it be Gary Kasparov. Ninety ninety, seven,
this huge mass of computer that new a lot of talk a lot about chest,
it had a lot of rules, a lot of incredibly intricate programming. That was extremely sharp and, if it actually wanted, became the first computer debate in actual human chess
master in, like regulation match play, yeah mean, and I don't think Kasparov gets enough credit for like willing being willing to do this.
Because it was a big deal for him to lose? It was
this community and may I community about sent shock waves and everyone,
that was alive remembers even
You didn't know anything about either. One remembers deep, blue,
all over. The news is a really big deal in Kasparov. Put his name on the line.
Last year, and I was wondering Chuck how'd how like you, would get somebody to do that, I'm sure the mountain of catch. I guess
probably part of it, but only a bed. I'm sure I don't know about that. That's out there we decided didn't, look it up, so that's possible. It's also possible that they said look man
This is chess, we're talking about whatever, but really what you're doing is helping advance artificial intelligence right
as we are not at, were not really trying. Ultimately, two inches games. We're trying to cure cancer. Me yeah, we're gonna, take your title because we're gonna beat you are our machines can beat you but right, even still, you're gonna be helping with cancer. Think of the cancer. Kasparov has probably what they say. She take a break yell way, or should we teach our special guess? First, as ok I can smell, am I don't agree even said: we're gonna have a special guessed at later in the episode, Mr Jonathan, strictly
text of nice. It's been a long time since, like years since we have struck on the last Sunday in strict comes like two thousand nine. With the next dynamic cannabis, what is quite, what were where's he been besides sitting in between its everyday, it's been a strictly. The drought is what its yes Strickland coming
but we're gonna come back after this and talk a little bit more about a man versus machine
hi, this is celebrity, acting coach, Tracy more and I have a brand new podcast dispirited actor. Where I give you the tools to succeed as a working actor. My clients include, must arrives fifty sad, Lala, Anthony and Cardy, be just to name. A few here were thought to yourself. How can I learned the craft of acting and break into the business? Well, each week I'll talk to industry, guess like casting directors, agents, directors and producers and I'll have celebrity Gaslight Vanessa, Simmons, Angela Ye Sean Ringgold and many many more. They will share their failures. Their struggles, em they're, triumphs on their journey in this business. These are not just the leading experts
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ok dude. So what we just described was how a I was taught to playthings like chess or to think like you takes
thing you figure out how to break it down in,
too little rules and in in things there a computer can think of right and then follow these kind of rules to make the best decision. That's how I used to be the the way that its,
now that everybody's doing now is. Where are you
creating a machine that teaches itself here. That's the jam tat was the breakthrough
you may have noticed back in about two dozen thirteen two dozen fourteen
a sudden things like SIRI and Alexa got way better.
You're doing they got way less confused,
you're on navigation app got a lot better here. The reason why is because these these this type, this new type of ay, I this new type of machine learning that can teach it
self in learn on its own, just hit the scene and they just started exploding in one of the things that they were. First train on was game yet, and it makes sense and if you thought chess was complicated enough,
gold when it comes to these new eyes at their teaching to teach themselves game strategy, they said
We might as well dive in to the chinese strategic game, go because it has been called the most complex game ever devised by humans here, and this was actually that was actually quote from D me, possibly Neuro scientists and of the founder of deep mind, which was deep mind. There were purchased by Google
They are always part of Google. I don't know if they were a spot of branch or where they were they were purchased, but its Wanna Google's a I outfits, while there there one
the teams yeah that designing these new programmes and to give you an idea of how complex go as it deals with a board with with different stuff
And there are ten. How do you say that tended a hundred and seventy of power
so that means a hundred and seventy zeros and take that number
That's a number of possible configurations of ago board right so, like you say, chest is very complex and complicated and very
difficult to master, go and I'm another play go of you now. So its support
It's easy to learn right, but
implicated in its simplicity right by exactly, is extremely difficult to master
and there was a guy in the late nineties and I'm guessing that that he was saying this after deep blue be Kasparov. Is it s refuses from Princeton?
He said that it would probably be a hundred years before a computer beats a human it go to give you an idea of just how comply yeah go. Is that deeply would just be Kasparov and this guy saying it will still be a hundred years before any anyone gets beat it go by computer and he was someone who knew about the staff whose an astrophysicist he wasn't just some schmo at home and drunkenness, reclining S, Michigan Ass, an aim
action is so again we we said this before, but I want to reiterate the people that I think I'll forego is the name of this programme, the people that created this deep mind they they wanted to stress that this is a problem. Solving programme were just teaching is game at first is too to make it learn and to see if we can get get it, what it does, but
The idea that any task that has a lot of data that is unstructured and you want to find patterns in the data and then decide
fine patterns in the data and then decide what to do, and that's kind of like what we're talking about its it crunches down all these possible options, a data to decide what moves. Should I make right and you can apply that. Ideally there can apply this to Alzheimer's and cancer and all sorts of things right. That's general, general purpose, thinking, right, yeah,
thinking on the fly to Moonface with novel stuff. So what are the reasons why it's good to use games like
Esther GO or whatever their those are called perfect information.
Games where both players,
anybody watching has all the information that is available on it right. There are definite rules or structure
good proving ground by, as will see a
Workers are getting further
further away from the structure gear as their I becomes more more sophisticated because the structure,
and the limitations are necessarily needed anymore, because these things are starting to be able to think
on their own in a very generalised and even creative way, yet really really interesting.
The waited there, like you said earlier, and before the break that we don't have come,
there's a can run all the possibilities, so what they teach in the case of alpha go. This programme teaches itself by playing itself in this in these games and go specifically
and the more it plays itself, the more it learns in the more ability it has during a game
choose a move by narrowing down possibility so instead of like well, there are twenty million different variations here by playing itself, it is able to say well
in this scenario, there really only fifty different moves that I could or should make right, or that's kind of simplified way to say it, but right nobody is true, but that's exactly right in
what they are doing is basically the same thing that human does its inner. It's going back to its memory bags, yeah exactly experience and saying while I've I've been.
Something like this before and this is what I used and it was successful. Forty out of fifty times all do this. One is a pretty
reasonable move yeah. That is why human
Do you not only I mean boy, we scared of the chess episode, but I get the idea that when you're the chess master, you don't just think what the number saying what is the book say, but man I did this move that one time and it didn't go as the book said right. So that's
factored into my thinking, right, except imagine, being able to learn from scratch and get to that point in eight days or eight they go
they go team. The alpha go, the first at the first adoration of alpha go. I think they sort of working on into doesn't fourteen and in two thousand sixteen at the entity as the sixteen they unleashed it secretly onto an alpha. Go website and it started just wiping the floor with everybody for basic the sings, pretty good. Oh, it's alpha go well years as those then two thousand sixty, ok, so chess. It already have come and gone like you by this point. You? U can download a program that site deeply right.
There was a that's a great point. Yeah like today, the stuff you play chess with on your laptop is even more advanced than deep Blue was in the nineties industries on your laptop here. But this is so this is go. This is the end of two thousand. Sixteen agenda two thousand seventeen alpha go was replaced,
alpha go zero. It learned what alpha GO had taken two years or three years to learn in forty days by teaching itself and it beat the master yet and finally, in May of two dozen seventeen hours ago took on
the highest rank highest player go player in the world. If he know if he or she still is
Lisa Doll is the current
as until Alpha alpha go beat him from man here. Do they get knocked off? An alpha goes the champion like that's, that's not fair. I buy it,
match play in the player. The human players accepted a challenge from the computer. I don't
see wouldn't be the world champion, nor do they
now say on websites like human champion, maybe an Italian with like a sneer rough vaguely yeah
interesting worthy collar aware like your brain
in a new neurons and all that, well, instead, a hardware
wetware about it. I think that the term for it, what does it mean that it means
do you have a substrate right? You're intelligencer in elected is based on.
Neurons its their firing all that stuff than theirs wet and squishy can do the same hardware on you can do the same, but
and you can build intelligence on, but it's hard words not wetware interesting. So it's probably it it's the wetware champion versus the hardware to anybody, but wetware said tell us ice
this near so where things really get interesting, because you're talking earlier about what it was, it was a chess and go where they called. What can a games perfect information game right? Then? You think then. My first thought when he said that was well yeah been dinners. There's games like
a poker making Texas hold him where there I set of rules but pokers, not about the set of rules. It is about sitting down in front of whatever five or six people.
And lying near laughing and getting away with it.
Gun do enough in black, like there are so many human emotions in contextual, clues and Anna Micro expressions and all these things like. Surely you could never ever teacher
machine to win at Texas. Hold him poker. Yeah it'll be a hundred years, at least before that happens, I predict now they did it.
And more than one team has done. It yeah.
There was one from Carnegie Melon called Liberalities a
go. Melon heads yeah go through the third melons
yeah, I mean it was
Merci Alberta has one called deep stack, though
So when I write about ok in it, actually here's the thing like. If you read the the release on it, you like you do,
How this thing works? Do you really yeah, I'm pretty sure they they dont fully get. It is it's one of the problems actually talk about this in the existential risks Series scared that is to be released. It right that there is
There is a type of machine learning where the machine teaches itself, but we don't really understand how its teaches you, probably the scariest one right or what its learning, but that's the most prevalent want. That's what a lot of this is like these machines right. Here's, here's chess go figure it out and the egg they go K got it how'd. You do that! Wouldn't you like to know so there
the scariest presentation. You will see on a eyes when someone says well, how does all this work and they go, but we
it can be to human and poker. But the thing about deep stack in the EU,
receive Albert. Is they learned somehow some sort of intuition yeah, because that's what's required, is not just the pie
the information where you have all the information on the board, its with poker, you don't know what the other persons
cards are, and you dont know, if they're lying bluffing, what they're doing so. That's an imperfect information game.
So that would require intuition and apparently not one, but two different research groups taught a I into it
yeah, Carnegie Melon came out in January, two thousand seventeen with its limits,
as a, and they said they spent twenty days
Two hundred twenty thousand hands of Texas hold them with for professional poker players and one and smoked, and basically,
not observed in workplace with real money. Obviously buddy I'm they have been greater play, skittles, increasingly acute funded there next week,
Liberace was that by one point, seven million and one of the quota
One of the poker players. I then he made to Wired magazine said I felt like I was playing against someone who is cheating like it could see my cards and not accusing it of cheating, and it was just that good right. So that's the really interesting thing: man that they could teach self teach a program or a programme could teach itself intuition right. It's creepy yet thought this part was interesting. The Atari stuff yeah, this gets pretty fun, Google deep mind, let its
I recall, back on a tory forty, nine different Atari. Twenty six hundred games see that could figure out a win. An apparently the most difficult one was Miss Pachmann, which is itself game. Still man Miss back then they nailed it yeldo. One of the great games but the but their their game, either Q, deep Q network-
algorithm beat it then I think it get the highest score. Nine hundred ninety nine thousand nine hundred points in
human or machine is ever achieve that high score from what I understand.
In the way this one does it the hybrid reward architecture that it uses is really interesting. Its it says here generates a top agent. That's like a scene
manager and then all these other a hundred and fifty individual agents. So it's almost like they ve devises this artificial structural hierarchy of these little worker agents to go out and collect. I guess data
And then move it up the chain to this top agent right in then this thing says: ok, you know, I think that you're probably right
what beautiful, what these agents are probably doing on. Others is exactly true, but
Is there are models out there like this, where the agent says this is
You have a ninety percent chance of success at getting this pellet. If we take this action, somebody else's you gotta eighty two percent chance of evading this ghost. If we go this way and then the the the top agent, the senior
manager can put all the stuff together and say if I violence in the sky and this guy Donnelly well, I evade this ghost I'll go get this pellet in its based on what what confidence
level that the the lower agents have in success in in recommending these moves and the top agent ways these things, while they should get a little by little cap. But all this is happening.
That area. In own saying this, isn't like all I on everybody, what is horribly Harvey? What do you have to say what good some chinese inherent in hash it out and everybody
is there an order, some chinese food and a new wafered to com, and then you pick up the meeting from that point on and they
Finally, Harvey gives his idea by he forgot what he was talking about, so he just sit down and eat his agro. Well, here's a pretty frightening survey
the survey of more than three hundred fifty I researchers and they had the following things to say in these are the pros that are doing this for living. They predicted that within ten years
is a. I will drive better than we do by twenty forty nine. They will be able to write a best selling novel ay. I will generate this and by twenty fifty three be better performing surgery than humans. Are you know so again, one of the things about the field of artificial intelligence in MID? You know a lot about now. Famous do is famous for making huge predictions that did not pan out you're
But you also seen it's it's also famous for beating predictions yeah that you know I've been levied against it, but there is something in their chuck that stands out to me.
And that's the idea of an eye writing a novel like for a very long time I
Well, yeah! Ok, you can teach a robot arm too, like put a car part or something so
where, if you wanted to get to follow these these mechanical these or it can use in a wish, it can use logic in reason, but to create its different right. That was like the new frontier re used to be chests, and then it used there was go the net
frontiers, creativity and their starting to bang on that door. Big time, there's a game.
Designing a. I called Angelina the University of Falmouth, which I want to say foul mouth there, but will does call Falmouth.
It's supposed to an Angelina actually comes up with ideas for new games. Not
like a different level or something or likened like you- should put a purple loincloth on that player in other. What kind of cool like new games but whacked out games that humans would never think of,
one example is eyes in a dungeon
Battle Royal game, a player controls like ten players at once. In some. U have to sacrifice to be killed to save the other like to stuff they humility.
Necessarily think up. He had to say I is coming up with. Well, I mean it when you think of creatively, especially something like riding a novel or a film. If there are only seven stories, I mean that sort of thinking thither. Basically, everything every dramatic story is a variation of one of seven thing
yet so I mean you can look at like gum a. I is scary and in some ways it very much is in can be, but
also like good, definitely a level of excitement and the whole thing in the idea that there are
official mines. There are coming on minor that have come on line now that are out there that are fell ill, just naturally by definition, see things differently than we do, and the idea that they can come up with stuff that we know in thought of those is gonna knock our socks off. Hopefully in good ways. That's that's a really cool thing and so
maybe there's just seven as far as humans? No but there's an unlimited amount, is, if you put computer minds to thinking about these kinds of things, that's the premise of right seller.
That would be like you. Never thought of boy meets girl, meets well trial, bite but see even that's a variation of her right,
Imagine something that we'd never even thought. Well do you know how they should do this if they do do that is, is not, is just release a book and not tell anyone that was written by an ay I programme, because if they do that, then it's gonna be so under scrutiny Julia. They should secretly release this book and then, after it's in your times, bestseller
say, made the whopper author of his interest, Sir rulers gating, blaming too.
And global thermonuclear war are age. We take a breaking its
Lenin. Here we're gonna end the Stricklin draw because it is about to reign Stricklin in this peace deal gross
I don't think America has ever gone back to the way that it will
as before, nine eleven and the anthrax attacks. Fear was really that there would be a second wave of attacks, and then along comes the DC steeper and all of the countries. Worst fears are realised. The gunman most likely a skilled marksmen fired six times in the courts and sixteen hours and then, as the DC sniper case, unfolded that terror boldly grew.
She found out about this terror court. In this message to police the police say they have never had a crime. Quite like this. It is quite a mystery. I do believe he was brainwash the lack of a better terms. It was scary to go to the grocery store, fill up your car with gas. It was actually brilliant, say, mother would leave the house. This was the most
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Ok, we're back and get this the scent of strict as permeate our place,
beautiful set. It smells like a soccer
gun a circuit board- and I feel lavender and protein bar
spare because they drank online. That would have been alive. The high you said. I was college or car dry car- that's not fair dzhokhar always pronounced it Benetton colors.
That was what I work he always over you're. During my what I call the year of Cologne,
commissioner, you have finished. This is scintillating wiring. Why am I here?
So we know that you already know cuz. We talked to the email about this little tell everybody else. We have brought you in here because you are the master of Tech and we're Talkin tech today, which we talked about without you before, but frankly Chuck and I and Jerry huddled. We said it's not quite as good without strict
try something different gotcha and then we're talking about game.
Then, and machine verses man and lead hole. I, however
she's in Hell? That's gun super crazy over the last few, your game without frontiers, Yater Gabby, roads, a war without fear, and we talk them.
Talked a lot about the evolution of machine learning in how now it's starting to take off like Iraq, because they can teach themselves right. But one thing we have really talked about are solved games and we talked about chess yeah. We talked about go right
do what those constitute solve game. Not really, as I saw a solved game, is the concept where, if you were to assume perfect play on either side of the game you
always know how it was going to end, which we always assume perfectly right. Yet this can work back right, efficient over mine, so
the play, just mean that no one ever makes a mistake so very much the way I do my work in the rest of you should know my exactly so
you were to take a game like Tik, Tok, toe man. You assume perfectly on both sides. It is always going in and draw witches woods in war.
Right? The only way to win is not to black right. Yes, sir
oh a game, lowered or talk a game I connect for whoever goes first.
Is always going to win, assuming perfect play real sides, yes, and what I don't think I played connect for that
where he dropped a very long time. The sooner you drop.
The little token
yeah like a colleague checkers, the other than interstitial playing connect for remember. I was speaking in them a new bad perfect.
So I know she's gonna say that I'm so humiliated by all the connect for games that are starting even yeah man, but am imperfect play that something that that
obviously only be the best players typically achieve with was significantly complex games. Obviously, the simpler the game, the easier it is to play perfectly right. Take facto. If you know once you ve, mastered the basic subject: Acta,
and the other person has you're, never really going to win. Unless someone has just made a silly mistake, because they weren't paying attention when they want a star
sort of an israeli withdrawal, Embrowned automatically disqualified. You one thing I found.
This very enjoyable is playing with little kids, you haven't figured out there to take those very easy to guess as mad at her face and the board rub it in their eyes. Same reason. Why lighted to join it literally games Cosette,
really whale them all? I really must we feel, like a man, that's the most text, everything you ever said really wailed at ball at the bar, whether be fair, I did just do a text of episode about the technology behind baseball bat. Irrationally my nice Santos and that when actual s, lot of fight so
there have been a lot of games that have been solved. Checkers was one that was recently solved. Beckoned were recently by the early nineties,
when it was played against a computer called Chinook and a zero each?
ok, yeah, like beheld cotton were the wines that blow through Alberta exactly and so there
are certain games that are eat more easily.
Other than others. You do it through an algorithm, but other games like chest are more complicated because you can in chess you M multiple moves
you can do where I can, you can move a peace back. The way you went right, it's not you're not committed to going a specific direction with certain xenophobia that, like with a night, you know you can you can
right back to where you started. I next move if you wanted to, and that creates more complexity right, so the more complex the game, the more difficult it is to solve, and some games.
Are not solvable simply because you'll never know what the full state of the game is from any given moment. Did you have a chance to talk about the difference between perfect knowledge and imperfect knowledge in a game? Yeah yeah? We talked about it
yeah so XO computers. Obviously they do really well if they understand the exact state of the game all the way through. If they are perfect now
the information there on the boar, yeah right and an all players can see all information at all times, but games like poker that what you guys talked about. Obviously you have em.
Subject: information. You only know part of the state of the game. That's why, though,
games have been more difficult, more challenging for computers to get better
than human until relatively recently, and thereby
two major ways of doing that, you either throw more processing power at it right and you get a supercomputer or you create neural networks, artificial neuron that works, and you start teaching computers to
end quote: learn the idea peopled it. So we talked about that yeah
other things that we talked about was how there's this idea that they, the programmers especially say that
but who are making programmes that are playing poker in or getting good poker. Aren't exactly sure how
the machines, are learning to play poker or what their learning they're just getting better at poker.
Yeah do they know how their learning poker
You know that their learning poker in that their good at it now like where's the intuition. How is that being learn an excellent question, the way Tippit
is learned, especially with artificial neural networks. Is that you, you set up the computer
play millions of hands of poker.
A random we assign so it's it's truly as random as computers can get. That's a whole philosophical discussion.
I dont think we're ready to go into right now, but you have games come up where the computer is playing itself.
Millions upon millions of times and learn
every single time, how the statistics play out, how different bedding strategies play out. It's it's
of partitioning its own mind to play against itself and through that process. It's as if you, as a human player, were playing thousands of games with your friends, and you start to figure out o
when I have these particular cards and there in my hand, and but they were playing Texas, hold him and the community cards or are the
But I know that, generally speaking, maybe three
other ten I end up winning, maybe I shouldn't bet and right
computers doing that, but on a scale that far dwarfs what any human can
you and I, and a fraction of the amount of time going. So it's it's sort of what its intuition in the sense of its just done. It so much right, but that doesn't mean it's completely ignoring micro expressions.
An facial cues, so that then even come into play out. I should say Strickland just nodded yea I was. I was waiting for time. Any news have you been doing like I still not.
I do a solo show and I do a lighter expressive, dance breathing down and I dont know don't let it get lonely in here guys:
But yes, yes, what you're saying that, although tells Rio
tells that you would use as a human player the computer does.
Pick up illegally Josie Data, yes, typically what it would do as it would study the outcomes of the games from a purely statistical russian sorry polemics, where most of these poker games tend to be computer baseball range. So it's not that it's playing legates is now users, the computer that says push ten more chips into the table. I too,
right now exactly who is the little winkie face? Emoticon I dont have good cards, it's it's all, usually over sore, like internet poker, which a lot of other people,
who play professional poker, cut their teeth on job, especially you knowing that the more recent generations of a professional poker players kids today,
They don't know what it's like being a smoky sullen like moneymaker moneymaker, rose to the top a few years ago or more like a decade ago. Now he had come from the world of internet poker and
so he was using those same sort of skills in a real world setting but
Thirdly, there are settled things that we humans do in our exe,
since their computers do not pick up on and in fact that leads us sort
why does seem like it's weird like one of the games on theirs picture Neri, for example, drag or tag, but these are the some of these
a joke, or is it real? Now that's real. I does seem like it's weird, like one of the games on Theirs Pensionary, for example, Gregg or Tag, but these are the
it is from a technical perspective, but incredibly easy. It is for your average human being who castle with humans a game of tag. Once you know the basics, it's it's on instinct. You too, you know, I did you run after the person try to catch up with them
a game of tag once you know the basics, it's it's on instinct, you do, you know what did you run after the person tried to catch up with them
Let me, but you also know fishermen the back as far as you can well, if you're Josh, you push him his horse, he can but most of us we tag and we're not trying to cause.
Harm robots, however robots none so that it can take a study is thing you said and say, and rising Asthma Isaac, asthma, rules of law, robotics aside, robots are not very good
judging how hard they have to hit something in order to make contact writer they're. Not as
I would add, even your
by people robots that walk around me.
People in the ones that can run and do flips. Instead, have you seen that, when the other day that the footage,
thing running and jumping. It's really impressive ends in super creep yeah, but even so that's that's a clip of the best of it. Rather, if you ever see the clips where
show all the times the robots fallen over here
pouring hot coffee in someone's head, yes, but they always play. This clip shows two Yacu Piazzi that, whereas this is truth, so DARPA had its big robotics challenge a few years ago, where they had by penal robots. Try to go through
a scenario that was simulating the Fukushima nuclear disaster. So the interesting thing was the robot had to complete a series of
asks that would have been mundane to humans in things like open up a door and walk through it and pick up a power to power tools.
Is it against the wall, and you can watch the footage of some
these robots doing things like being unable to to open the door because they they can't tell if they need to polar
wash more- they opened the door, but then a mealy follow over the threshold of ago our right and when you see that you realise, as advanced as robotics is as advances, machine learning has become and as incredible as our technology has progressed there,
still things that are fundamentally simple to your average human right that are incredibly complicated from a technical standpoint like a six year old, complete jingo, better than a robot right right right. Ok, but the thing
we're talking robots here and as we go more and more and more online in our world becomes more and more like web based, rather than
reality. Based. Doesn't the the fact that a robot
walk through a door matter less and less and the
idea that the
genes are learning intellect in the robot easier, the worsening
to my mind the dead
becoming more and more vital in important and something we should be paying attention get absolutely is something we should pay attention to. I mean we have robotic stock traders
the right, their ratings, only thousands of trades per second right fastened so fast that we have had stock market booms and crashes that last less than
second long due to that, so that the robot army that will ultimately defeat us is not something from the terminator its invisible right,
the mine will be online. It's gypsy is its. What's determining our retirement right
the global economy or our municipal water supply or whatever, yet others. The fascinating thing to me about this is not just that were training
Machine intelligence to learn and to perform at a level better than humans, but there were put
a lot of trust in those devices and things that have real
incredible impact on our lives that significant enough impact where
If things were to go south Gay would be really bad for us and not in that terminator. Respectfully. Terminator is a terrifying to still be in science fiction,
story, but then, when you realize what could really happen behind the scenes, you you think of that robots. Don't have to do any physical huh
to us to really messed things up, so there are certainly some cases for us to be very vigilant in the way we
deploy an artificial and through his right from the outset.
We know too little too late to better
I think I think it's, I don't think it's too late, but I think it's getting to that point of no return very very quickly,
December of this year, if you're, if you're someone, if you're someone
Elon musk you'd say? If we don't do something now, there were totally going to plummet off
should the cliff right now is a window that is rapidly close. Yes
now the now is the now is the time where we ve got a deadline. We don't know exactly when that deadline is gonna be up, but we know that it's not
giving further out it we're just getting closer to that deadline, so
and a lot of this is. Is it come
and deep conversations in the artificial intelligence and machine learning fields that has been going on for ages to the point where
You even have bodies like the European Union that have debated on concepts like granting person who had to artificial intelligence. So the
This is a really fascinating and deep subject that an end. The games thing is a great entry point into having that conversation
not I'm lucky. If I can win the game of chess against another human being area
So I don't even describe chess, my big,
As I do that night thing I called the night shuffle at his moving back and bore heightened
If I can castle, then I'm I'm I'm so happy as this is. The third text appears. Ethics committees will strict thank you for stuff,
by failing to stick around forever listener mail. I think you should to loved you and in Thrall any funny, commenting I'll, throw out comments and the jury can decide which ones are funny. Ok,
fair enough. I so I, if you want to know more about a, I goes into text of strict. Does this every week, what days Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday wow that's amazing body and wherever you find your podcast? Yes, ok and you ve been doing it for years
So if you love this, there's a whole big, backlogged, nine hundred plus up as a yacht, elevating you're celebrating your tenure as well as yet, I sure am Albania will be turning ten and text off on June. Eleventh amass graduation reasonings. Well, since I said, happy anniversary means it's time for listener. Male guys
We call this met, greening and cultural relativism, not that big eyes, liquefied gas. So much the massive archive makes for endless learning an entertainment. My favorite part is your such rad guys, including Strickland, and I could totally imagine
How did they know? I can t imagine myself getting a beer with you too, but without Stricklin you're simpsons episodes were absolutely perfect.
They saw them Portland and drove on Flanders and Lovejoy streets alot weight is this: may greening narrowed? Ok emigrating?
drew barge in the sidewalk cement. I Lincoln High School in downtown Portland. You can google that I would like to offer one interesting observation, though of notice it on several episodes. You guys have said that your cultural relativism,
Said Britain's right yeah, but then in nearly every episode I hear you pass moral judgments on all the messed up stuff that people do whether racism freak show. Sir.
Crematorium, sparing bodies on the sly, Yasser, never shy to condemn something that deserves to be condemned.
Mind me something I read from Yale sociologist will have Gorsky who points out
our own relativism is rarely as radical as our theory requires. We can't be complete relativism in our daily lives. Heathen gives example of how I could make social scientists or die hard relativism get furious at in more or less
at the data fudging of other researchers soon, while anyway, love show guys love text stuff, especially and will forever
be indebted to you
hilarity intelligibility, Cheers Jesse, Moscow PS, go text of nets that sweet there thanks a lot Jesse
There was an actual episode in. I don't remember which one it was where we abandon our cultural relativism dear me, because we use it just be like no judgment, no judgment, bright, we'd, just can't judge you now and then finally or like you know what now that's not true, we change Dorothy. Our philosophy do include the idea that there are moral absolutes that our universal other. Sometimes we are judging even beyond that,
look at us. Yet I will. If you want to get in touch with us, you can try to us I'm at Josh Clark.
Does John Strickland that John Strickland that's correct, twitter, chokes a movie crush and you have a text of ages double
twitter right as right, and then we also have asked why escape podcast we're on facebook dot com slashed up, you should know slash tax off and Slash movie, crush idea of a movie curse page for face.
Yeah yeah. That's actually, where I spent most of my time to know that we have said time and again
Also as slashed up. You should know Facebook page, you guys have a lot of facebook and to do so many social needs flying around. You can send us an email to stuff podcast, a house of works dot com. You can send John and e mail to text off at Housetop works, DOT, TK
nice and then hang out with us in our home on the web stuff. You should know dot com and just go to tax
I've just search in Google. I come up all the time. Verona.
More or less in thousands of other topics, housetop. What's up?
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Transcript generated on 2020-01-05.