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I heard radio alien work under the podcast on Iron Josh Clark, there's Charles W C Chuck Bryant in Saint Jerome role and is out. There is well I'm not saying I'm sinner in this institution, the first eleven episode of the new year. It is check it's beyond the future. Now it's twenty twenty one That's a futuristic, no one ever even used it in a safe. I book that right. We we had our what what we liked Color Elementary School Christmas Break, which means and a three and a half weeks long we work hard for that. We do see better treatise right how is your holiday good good I've. I've finally got to be candid, disconnecting decouple in just relax and those

Actually I, when I went, entire time without cracking my computer and I was really proud of that. Well, yeah, I couldn't believe it like. I did if my phone I needed to buy just there ban on opening my laptops. Even for funds is yeah no point I didn't want to provide. I didn't want to see a computer or keyboard for a little while I was able to do it. Yet. That's guy just did the poor results just like I just may drawings myself, it's lit books, I loved doing things in my life, but I was proud of myself were not looking at any work emails. did a little bit at first cuz, there's any of some buttoning up into the year stuff. But then I was just like you know what and you know what I put his Maya. You ve seen my occasional auto reply right, which is

it's an emergency. Please realise there are no pod customer has a high which is sort of true it's. I think I hunted percent true chile- and you got your slide whistle. I did not have a with me right now or outside dealing with our we gotta debut. The site was later cause. I gotta hear that thing. Yes, we do. Thank you for that. Did you get your gift for me? I did ok, get I thought that you would find that wildly appropriate and help. A body to their right, so we're just gonna wait into some easy peasy. This year with Hell pal This is the man I was like his dumb. I deal with this and I realize it was mine so I never forgot. The CIA here is, is that I mean people like think the grabbed her hopeless put this today. He said people make their entire careers out of just

Dantes Inferno, right much less concepts of I, and It is very broad and dense and confusing, and so this is sort of it just stuff. You should have stab at it yet let me just add that we are in no way shape or form biblical scholar, zoo, theologian know we're gonna get a lot of stuff wrong. Yes, probably gonna walk right, past interpretations, thereupon, regular and widely accepted correctly willing. This is to suggest that talk about help so just relax, We already know we're going to help so there's nothing you can do. Is that any worse, so just calm down and enjoy the so about that a year. This episode about eternal, conscious, torment, and if you are a scholar of Dante, just don't even listen you will literally puke into your cup hands? Why, Listening to this on the train, because you that polite that right go back and listen to the science of cute again, while there was there was a reference

something that doesn't even exist yet that ok, Hetty so check. I wanna talk first, I mentioned eternal conscious, meant and that is kind of like the broad spectrum of white, most people walk. Around today, in the western world, whether their christian or just familiar with the christian conservative help think of hell? It's where you're, your soul is tormented. Beaten up bullied, maybe talked about behind its back and set on fire, in this in this state, there's no dying, there's no death of the soul. The souls of mortal so this this pain, this torment, this horrible- this just keeps going on for ever and ever and ever, and that is that that comes directly from Saint Augustine, who kind of place big into this concept of hell. But the idea that there is a immortal

nor did it go somewhere after death and the depending on how it behaved here on earth it may or may not face eternal conscious, torment, then, as seriously as a theological turn with these today that strike some people. Some theologians is wildly disproportionate to the kinds of sins. We're talking about here, like like you over indulged in fudge, brownie mix during your time on This means that you are going to be to suffer a literal and not never ending infinite, eternal torment of damn near. And because you, over indulged in brownie mix that this doesn't quite gibe for some people said there there been other alternatives that were posed many many years ago that were actually around. In some cases before eternal contest, torment came around that some people are saying like hey. Maybe this is a better interpretation of what actually going on with

are you familiar with those other interpretations? Well which ones namely universalism and annihilation is now. This was that thing that I've seen we gotta talk but these so check this out a minute. Let me, while you for a second ok, ok, because these to me, the softer, gentler versions of hell, one is, that you the universalism, terms universal salvation- and it's this idea that there is an end- thirty there's a finite date to visit to the torment. and that your basically going to hell depending on barely sin, but oh, time you can kind of work that Sinn off and you away. Please come out. The other end saved then go to Heaven and if that happens, everybody everyone is. Is it can possibly go to Heaven through this idea,

The other is an innovation ism, which makes little sense to if you believe in this kind of stuff, that the people who are saved the righteous, the virtuous but we're gonna go to Heaven. They go on to Heaven after they die. Everybody else just ceases to exist, therein. I waited upon death, there's no hell, but there's no. heavenly reward for those people I got a lot more than eternal, conscious, torment. The thing is eternal, conscious, tormented, so gripping yeah that it's it's like this is. This is This is just what people think of when they think of Helen, apparently, if you're an evangelical in particular and you believe in anything but eternal, conscious, torment, you're, you're you're flirting being shunned by your peers, because you're you're, going in the face of orthodoxy We, I mean, you know it's a lot to unpack under. You grew up fairly catholic and I regret humming

have had to say the word Baptist on this show like there's a lot of people, taking a shot right now. If this is the stuff, you should know drinking game, but I can't not mention that growing a Baptist. It's a very you know very fiery, brimstone any religion and its I go very much grew up with the concept. This very sort of trophy concept of Heaven is this. You know lovely place, were God lives it's in the up there in the clouds and you go up and then, if you're not good, then you go down to somewhere. Yes in the center of the earth where the devil lives and were Satan. hopes you and where you are, you know, there's lakes of fire and it's all there. Scary and in you know, until I get a little bit older than I realise that these are stories told to get killed line.

just children, a dull to go on to continue to believe in how you know and into subscribe to this stuff for sure. It's definitely way to keep people in line, but that the concept of oh generally, in the concept of souls in this is probably no surprise to most for critical thinkers, but it you know the idea of being worm dirt and after you die. That's just. It is a lot to take on. as you approach that day. Yes, it is really it makes a lot of sense. I think that people from very early on started to think about the concept of a soul. a self that lived on- and you know it just makes sense that there's a quote good place in a battle yeah, but the thing is is apparently it doesn't seem to have necessarily been just like part and parcel from from what saying from what I saw elsewhere in research. Is that heaven seem to have developed for

very early eyes and then there is a real emphasis on symmetry in the ancient in unlike pre modern world, where, if you had one year the opposite, unequal proportions right so eventually over time, they kind of like waters is really lovely place. That's like Paradise, few die than there has to be the opposite of that. The brightness of that too, and that for this development of hell came from, but the fact that health was hasn't always been around or as long as you know, the idea of the afterlife and then the idea that it was an ever do. It hasn't always been this place where you're you were subject to the most cruel kinds of punishment right available. Two to take human imagination, overeating right, yeah that that's not that's not as all this there is the idea of the afterlife either that there was really surprising to me, but it's it's pretty need, because it's weird, it's almost like manatee got infected,

germ of real meanness and in darkness we're still living with today and that you can kind of tracing in in the evolution of our idea of Hellas world right or to the beginnings of twitter. So evil incarnate. It depends on what religions you're talking about, but virtually Religion has some sort of afterlife concept Ernie early Judaism of course, certainly does. If you read back at describes thing from the sumerian underworld where they they kind of more talk about hell as or the afterlife guesses. Sort of boring, and there wasn't, you know you didn't go to a fiery place where your tormented. They talk about new, now being thirsty and eating dust. Certainly unpleasant yeah then this idea starts where

you can be in a better place in the afterlife according to what you have achieved on earth, but not sincerely good deeds at first, like If you're really rich than you they go to a good place, because your family could afford to bury you with food and drink and jewels and gold and stuff like that to carry with You too, that the other side- and that would put you in much better standing, but again this is not like. I was a good person. This is just by died, rich, so he's really valuable things they could put underground and bury with me right but the same way to the living could care for you. They could cut. You might not be rich, but your family might care so much about you that they come on every Sunday, sure whatever they called Sundays Backwardness Marion's were running around in bring you like a little, good and a little beer or something like that had an end. They were used

staining you in this place where everybody else's eating dust endured by your family, so loved you. Could you been such a good person during your time, while you were alive that they were coming in bringing you like bread, beer and, in that sense, also Chuck really kind of poetic, because you that person are living on in the memories of your family after you died, yet they're, coming in keeping your memory alive by bringing you bread and beer and all that, and so in that way you are living on in this kind of moral means as well, but the converse so that is really disturbing and that, if you don't inspired bright care about you afterwards. You really ceased to exist. There there's there's, there's! No one on earth is king of you are honouring you, and in that sense, if there is no after life, you give, that is annihilation. It is true oblivion. What Disney or x or movie is it. I saw it recently that has to do brutal,

like you being erased and not until you remembered after death, eternal sunshine, spotless I know it's called inside out. Maybe now that's the one about the emotions which is equally brutal air. I think that I like her, I thought the kids, like imaginary friend, was being erased D. I wish the now is that in that movie I think so. Yeah remember the elephant that was like George Cluentius friend. Richard or even as a right now it, sir He seems that way. I can't remember- and this is officially marks the first podcast of the year where people are screaming at us, which, coincidentally, the first part so the year that we record that's right. I think it's Egypt, ancient Egypt, where the first, the first idea like this, this weird sort of afterlife judge panel sort of steps where

No, there are people, like literally in charge of this thing, almost like a bureaucracy. There's an administration and its it sounds a little bit more like Sammy Davis, juniors sit compound. But the veil, oh yeah, forgot about that. She devil. I remember I would definitely wasn't she devil halves. Wasn't she darling little somethin like that they are, but it was those pretty good show us. I mean that. the would like one minute trailer. I solemnly, I think this, you know their ancient Judaism sort of overlaps with some of this stuff but Judaism is it? Isn't it it's a whole different thing, because you know they have references, there's a lot of references to things that were later to sort of reach. written and retrain translated. As well, which It really confusing. If you look at ancient texts Judaism, head, she'll witches

kind of follows in that same tradition, from the precautionary that like when you died, there is an after life and There wasn't much to it. It wasn't preside away. His right wasn't particularly pleasant yeah, apparently to the to the job the early Jews they were. They were basically saying like this. Is it State of mind after death row, more than Liketh inner dimensional like physical place. There exists outside of this world now around a yellow, you're saying, like oh yeah, wake up I guess this state of mind if, as far as is that is that goes, but it also suggests that you still have a mind after you die well, and it also suggests that I mean there's a little bit of the punished and reward, but it's not necessarily. You go the fiery place where you gotta Heaven it's a little more of a spiritual connection like if you did. good on earth and you're going been your afterlife little closer to God, if you're not so

great person. You're gonna be You know a little further away from God right right, but but overall the point of she all was that no man, what you did on earth? No matter who you were good person, person. Doesn't matter you going to go to the same place and you the time. Apparently they realise that this was unjust. There is like a part of it think ecclesiastics. It says that the fact that there are that everybody goes to the same place, no matter how good or bad you are in life. This is the injustice that is done under the sun. The same fate comes everyone right, which I didn't realize the Ecclesiastes rhyme, but of nice nice beat you a nice temper. Does it doesn't arrive? Does it I don't think so. It's kind of surprise at any of the Rhine, but there's that that's a really important point chuck that to these ancient

people, whether they were the early Jews or the Canaanites, or are they Egyptians there was there was not punishment in the afterlife, God punished you during life. like you, you re. Suddenly, you know Dry and or something like that, that was punishment from God. What, as we can evolved away from that? The idea that God had a direct daily hand in our lives as it is a species that punishment moved so the afterlife rather than during this life right, which is not recognise and Judaism, of course, as new testament stuff, no one. There is something else that stuck out to me is workable kind of seeing a second duty, some seems to have been developed as a religion as as contrary, to some of the other religious, but if that were around like face You have really kind of oppose the Canaanites became the nights were into child said, her face they. They had me

for gods in the Jews kind of played, offer that, like some of these, these Devil'S- that we understand today- demons like Moloch by all you know, be apostrophe aim of those actually Canaanites gods and they kind of perverted the the nation of a new kind of mock them or make them seem other or different, and you think, like it's a very nice one religion disparaging another, but at the same time the their early Jews were saying like also wish. Be sacrificing children like that's not right. It's not a good thing to do. Let's practices other thing instead, so I'm kind of a fan of their of early Judaism. It turns out. I had no idea you should convert. I just might. Should we take a break. I think we should very interesting break will read up a little bit on whether or not you are allowed to convert cuz even now, and then will be

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Katie World, so you can join the host for each episode as they demystify contact racing army with really good facts that are actually correct, insights and information to move forward and make your world a safer and healthier place to be and not just during this pandemic, but whenever it ends to they, ve got answers to questions like what is contact tracing or are the vaccine safe, whose behind all this? What's in it? For me, questions you really want answered context got em right contact world is available now on the radio up or where every listen upon case, Have you converted? I looked for not allowed to it would require me to be religious. Oh well, interesting, so we could a little bit about the sort of the confusion of I'm a lot

Confusion in what we think hell, lies in just these. These tax some Hebrew extend translations and miss translations and stories that are told. You know the old guy Emma of telephone that happened throughout the years. While these things are. asked on So there's a lot of things. You know over the years that you thought of sort of as a generic hell like Haiti's which was Greek, the greek underworld, so synonymous with the scheele, but not hell. There's tartarus in the old testament also from the Greeks, Denmark, mostly resembles health from what I can tell you and that's like a part of the underworld where the gods imprison enemies. There is like punishment its fiery and maybe that concept like a lot of this, what we're doing a sort of unpacking? Why We think of as hell now and sort of where the stuff came from this aims, her tortoises.

Every one of those places yeah like Haiti's and she all more closely resembled purgatory or limbo at work charter. A CIS is definitely hell hell like that's from her torment and fire is and all the all the stuff. That's really kind of like popped up to me. It's like wow. This is like what we think of his held today, even like the cartoon hell with like them, the pitchfork in in the firing line up the fund one. This is some ancient stuff that its Bell Tanya over yawns. You know like the early people who started burying their dead because they thought like. Maybe there is a life afterward, and this is kind of a from that colonel and more and more, civilizations came along and added to its subtracted to it that no you're wrong, no you're wrong and let's go to war of this like hell, is like this hammered. Steel drum that's been hammered out.

By you know millennia of of people and cultures, and it sounds pretty good yeah. I thought you were about to say by John Bonham: did he plays still drawn nobody just You said it sounded like the to a led Zeppelin song Rivers, Ghana is something else we should mention. This is another kind of course quote hell. But this was a real place. It was a literal place near Jerusalem, where it sounds like it was kind of a some sort of ancient sort, I'm looking for are not necessarily a weight. Will you take all the trash upset about it: land, land here, sort of the landfill on fire. Okay, that's one interpretation, which is the great record title. My think landfill on hand. Why not? But this is where they like, would take stuff to burn trash basically, there might have also been child sacrifice happening there, because I guess they figured what

the fire already happening. So we want to start one. It depends on what source you're looking at, but it became a metaphorical hell, whereupon it was on fire. You could be sent. There is a place of judgment you could be cast. Do it is in the new testament, of course, so that's another sort of he's, like I guess, usage that just makes it all the more confusing yeah. But again like you, like it as we're getting further and further along in deeper and deeper into Christianity, which we haven't quite hit. Yet when your was first introduced, as I think that's jewish right, like a jewish yeah, I think so, even though it is in the new testament, even more confusing right, but it and shows you how like connected like these? These civilizations and groups worry the age. You know that the still popped out worlds, borrowing things from one another exactly, but then, as these translations

you know, kind of go on over the centuries in theirs, newer and different versions of the Bible in the new testament old testament. Like you know, all these things just become this. Generic hell which kind of opens it up to making how this big huge amorphous place were. Oh, it's like this, but it also like this it's like that and by naming everything just hell in losing that kind of their ethnicity involved, the the Christians were able to kind of wholesale adopt, all of these ancient traditions in conceptions of hell into their own version of hell- and this is the christian hell, whereas if you can start poking behind it, you're like us is this christian hell's made up of these other conceptions of hell along the way. So as far as like- and I love the ed causes section that topology of hell- but this you know a big part of it is we mention a little bit Heaven as this place, where God lives,

above you up in the sky, because it's pretty No one really knows exactly where all that comes from, but it all does make sense that you know you Look to the skies when you pray, you look up when you're too kinda God, and if that's that pace than it makes sense that, like you said with symmetry that there is another place we buried. dead underground. It makes sense that there would be a place. That's deep, endure and fiery. I guess you know cave like underground that stuff is scary, so it makes that held just sort of became this place. It's for lack of a better word under our feet somewhere what was interesting to me is L, a disconnected groups in cultures through not geographically, but through time as well. All had that seem conception. They like was underground in Heaven was somewhere above us or in the sky.

like the Mayans, had a place called Xibalba, which is like a guess, translates to a place of fear. And that is when you die, you start out there and its underground in its hellish, scaring after work your way up, basically into the sky, to Paradise and she all was underground. It was connected to the grave and that seems to be where this idea- also not just the Heavens. in the sky so help must be underground, but also that there has to be some action underground because we ve been burying people here or at least putting our dead in. You know deep, dark caves for at least two hundred and thirty thousand years from what I've seen, but it may go back before the neanderthals, I think, bury their dead. Even so, it's a really kind of ancient impulse to put your dead underground or in some some underground subterranean place like a cave chamber. So of course, that would be connected to the afterlife

I'm way, but it is interesting that it's like, as far as I can well, there's not a single culture. That's like fields were heaviness is underground, yeah, It's like I find myself saying. Well, it makes sense because you, climb your way out of hell with good works towards Heaven like it's, the chicken or the egg thing like it makes sense to me, but it only makes sense because it's the way? It's always been framed, yeah, there's a few thousand years of culture behind that That way that you raised her. I was rate sooner yeah so you mentioned, category. This is around the afterlife purgatory is like a waiting room where you were waiting to be judged. It's not it's not like great place is not like an awesome waiting room with like that, the best magazines, it's more. The waiting room with boys lights in China.

nothing but highlights in boys. Life in all of the puzzles are already filled out here or a man. The worst is any doctors office where it's nothing, but like him, go and health magazines, but no one wanted to read that stuff in their no nothing you want to read a three year old sports illustrated in every the US in the waiting room, is not wearing a mask. No thank you said. The twenty twenty version of hell, do that's my new nightmare either having those about three times a week, I dont like were in descended upon their seem like zombies, but they're just people without mask her weird potato potato. But you know it's funny This has happened to you. Are you where you watch movies or tv shows, or something elevator? It's like your way to close that person get back like we ve changed man possibly forever. Oh, I think you'd be surprised. How quickly will forget

hope, hope so me- and I hope so. I hope this I'll just becomes like some bad dream that is paid over time. My mom's gettin vaccinated Saturday good for her jack. He needs to do live on Instagram or something dance. She was like. You know, It should have any reservations, as I note nope, nope, noble hope. This is like war. Then I mean you have to wait line you're like ours. Rules, yes, make reservations, make reservations, rosy, but yes stuck it being stuck in purgatory is not a good thing. So it's not it's not hell, but it's not someplace, where you want to be that's why people Minos use that term now come in purgatory, yeah, there's something purgatory they hadn't really realises it's, not interchangeable with limbo. When you go into limbo, you're there forever like that's, where you spend eternity, sometimes by no. All of your own, like this is where people who lived before Christ ever existed go after they die because it can't possibly have been Christians, so

they're not being punished but they're not being rewarded. I you know I have it can mean purgatory is a place where You, I guess, have to have been a Christian, but maybe elapse Christian, a Christian who say something like that to where you can. You can work it off, and and you know, go on to Heaven and then kind of that. Universalism are universal. Salvation idea, it's like that's all. There is to help us Victoria, where you can work at all. for a time and in be saved, and then so really gibes too, with this idea chuck of some of the buddhist hell. Basically, the Buddhists have a concept of hell where I think called Morocco, which is also a hindu concept but there's this idea that you fear there for very in each of these hell's. You have to go through this house and your life time there is a very specific like you're you're, I've time in this hell is one point. Sixty

who trillion years and then the next hell is like you know, trillion years or something like that, but you eventually work your karma off on earth in it there. real, striking resemblance this buddhist hell to some in a Christian in jewish interpretations of hell- or I should say some christian interpretations of hell, we're can work off your bad deeds and then go on to Nirvana or Heaven Gazelle borrowed from one another Is it really? I mean that's basically, the fact of the pod castle, there is a lot of fun. Incestuous interchange between religions overlap. That's what I think is also interesting- is the concept of temperature in Hell. It's a very big, you always think of a fire and heat and sweating us, but not always the case, there are frozen hell's aside from being out the Dakotas.

That neurons you're talking about, I think, that's a frozen. How right yeah, there's a hot hell's in eight cold because in the eight cold Hauser like in this, when your skin starts a blister in this one is so called it the blisters break. And then it just keeps going from there, like all these horrible things happen to you from being exposed to the cold, and it's very interesting. But I guess it's just sort of a variation of the same thing like something really cold can burn you here, but I mean if it really kind of gives you this idea. Chuck there's like so much thought has been given to all the little horrible details of hell, and I wonder what what that satisfies like king, you, be like ok. We all believe that there is a hell of a horrible place as bad as you can imagine just go with. That was what was the purpose of going into all this detail. I think this, I think, the specificity, if, if Hell in the inn,

since on earth are to be punished in the afterlife to me with EC sense that there would be a great specificity put forward so Peter exactly how bad it is here in order to inform their deeds on earth like it's, not just heads please you don't go there, it's it's a place your skin will melt off and you will be in all you had to push this fireball around for eternity. Or whatever he now here in the persons like fire bullets, HANS terrible Lycos with with this thing, but maybe you should get better person. I guess I won't steal this car after all, but it's all like fear, stuff, and that means that existed right through my religion in Amman, still exist today Do you remember roughly how old you are when you're like? I don't actually built,

this anymore, I'm free. It started in sort of Mytishchi High School, but I was still sorted: and the stuff and hang in with certain crowds. Certain crowds d me like opposite of certain. Now you know going to like young life in an essay and stuff like that in the early. alleged in the big transformation and make a mention this before was when I took a religion in college, and I did learn that so much of this stuff is kind of all the same and barred from one another, and that is antithetical to grow up in the Christian Baptist church. Where they're like I know this is the only truth. Everyone is wrong right and then, when I said, will wait about what about all these other religions that are really similar failing wrong. It so happens. That was a big reckoning and then it was a sort of gradual from their your comparative religions class was taught by Professor Louis Cypher,

man, he had a heck of a phoney dale. I just felt over. I thought that was really clever back when I saw that movie here then looking back, it's pretty when the angel heart yeah, I mean good enough movie very much of its time, but I remember, thinking that Louis Cipher thing was like woe right right, there's a restaurant. I think d C, maybe Louis ciphers. Yes, that's gonna, like that That's an unusual choice. The base year restaurant franchise on Satan. You know I love it to take another break here. Let's alright, judgment punishment coming up right after this

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kings of hell. If you did this, you go here. If you did this, if you go there and This is informed by writers. And not even like biblical scholars like people like Plato, a lot of these stories again, a really really similar. There's a story from those republic were made her e goes into a coma adjourned through the underworld and then wakes up and entails everyone what happened down there in this house a lot of rewarding punishment included in a really organised system in there a lot of stories really similar to that throughout time that you know that if there are based on Plato or or the republic or just like, we ve been time about sort of overlapping incestuous. I think you can make the case that they were based on Plato because Plato, he was the first to come up with the idea of the immortal soul and their there being like judgment and

or meant you know potentially afterward, if not reward, but he really kind of boosted it. I guess he signal boo did the idea of an internal soul, impossible damnation in he directly influenced Saint, Augustine near in Augustine death. ITALY influence some of these later guys, like Drip Helmand ton, Their idea of hell, but Augustine was influenced by by Plato, Augustine had the other distinction, along with thumb, I think, seen in Saint Gregory were really kind of big time. I'm into their eternal damnation idea, but August also was the one who basically said. This is orthodoxy. This is the correct interpretation of the scripture. If you don't buy, even when we are fine with inflicting violence upon you. That seemed

vision of what you were saying where this is the only truth, and anybody who believes anything else is wrong that finds its source, The very least finds its early popularity from Saint Augustine this idea of eternal damnation and if you do- even that you're wrong, they're kind of finds its its place in the early christian church and like the fifth century. And so you do have these guys- who came later like drip, how intended, who had nothing to do with scripture, but their their experiences. Basically they died and came back to life, and so there's a hell and it's awful right right. the kind of informed our idea of what hell is like, and it seems to be it's a lot on the side, these ideas by Augustine, who got his He's from Plato who got his ideas from God knows how you got does know who, If you really want to drill down no to where we get a many many of our ideas of what we think of his cell is Dante. Of course,

we mentioned earlier, I did not. and no Dantes last name until until we research this. It's in there can be some great italian coming up everyone command, but Dante guilty, burned in his divine comedy and specifically Inferno is Inferno as Israel. on, really where we get a lot of what we think of as hell today, comes from inferno as far as in people and say without even knowing like the eight circle of hell and stuff like that, right, like I've been guilty saying that my whole life and not really understand what the heck that even met, but what's interesting, Who is so Dante, wrote the the inferno, we're all erode the divine comedy arm in the early thirteen hundreds it took him fifteen years, and so this is the routine, hundreds any rights about these nine circles of hell, the nine concentric circles of help

That is a really ancient concept, even though he divided in, like really enunciated all of the different distinctions in a really popular way, like thou. That's really! old, like think of it nor aka, there's a hot hot Sahel There's a cold yells there's like this idea of difference. is like the Mayans even had this idea, where you progressed through these different stages, up the tree of life from that that dark underworld that's a really ancient idea, but you Don T was deafening. The one who you We credit with this- you know coming up with it, even though totally wrong yeah. It is also important to remember, when Dante wrote this stuff, it was in that it was the as fifteen years of his life in this was after he battled the pope and the, If church and was exiled from Florence, so a lot of this stuff is just reeks of sort of, having a bone to pick em like the things that happened to me,

be slide in, like a it's almost like. like using his own experience too, to create the symbolism of like this? happened to me, and that makes you the worst person. If you did these things exactly like I'm going to put you in Hell in my book here and I'm sure some People were alive, and I came here. Don't don't put me in hell like you, this is not you can't do that needs like. I just did here's an ice You have one so he Don T one of his big things and that I think we made his work. So famous too was he really got into counterpart. So you wanna take that now those great I didn't pinched, my fingers and thunder together contracts So basically, this this poetic, for an eye where you know, if you, if you

do this on earth. Have you seen in this way? Your punishment is going to be some poetic justice here in the afterlife, and that was the whole point of of hell As for his daughter was concerned, it was where God got justice for things: that were done wrong here on earth, right and apparently, It is much over the gate of Hell. It said gear disease more say, ill meal out of authority, which means justice moved my high maker, which is basically saying like this, is what this places forest justice. There is also a very famous some inscription over the gates of Hell abandoned all hope he who energy and that came from Dantes Inferno as well. How is that, with that from it's good stuff. It really is. There is also used to great effect in Boondocks, saint

so Dante in Virgil are before they go to Hell. They have to. ass, the river at your on and deal with sure on the boat man which, as you know, I think this has been two million times too in literature and pop culture like this, this boat person that has to transport someone across this river to a different place right. Sometimes you have to pass a test, You know that, like money, python style, basically in that so weird right, as I said that I just looked up to our Erin Cooper special money by Thun Photoshop poster where I'm king arthur- and you are one, Knights Strickland in their two year. Isn't he liked the page with the cocoanuts here and there? He also over there now, looking at a picture of me face punching a turkey were to look you have been in this room in a while. You know

No, but I remember pretty well, it's burn in your brain well, there's here! So where was I? You were talking about the river, Dixon archer and yet we might as well be. The river sticks right right, but it is it's like straight up taken from the Greeks, and yet this devout Christian Dantes is writing about it. Like this, John, how in really kind of goes to show you just how much literary licensee took, with this well in how much Mickey borrowed from the Greeks, because, like you, you would think this is probably the christian stance on on hell- and it's not like for incidents dante- sees things that it's a virtue if Europe moderation in your life right, like you, don't want he too spending and greedy also dont want to be too miserly, but that's not Kristen thing at all, like that's not in the ten commandments, so I wanted to and deadly sins or anything like that. No,

gluttony, but miserliness, is not in the right yeah. So he's definitely to saying this is this is what I don T think, but I guess it just hit a nerve, because I mean like like we're. Staying at the outfit like this is. This is just this is basically what people think of when they think of hell these days, if not the fire, red, pitchfork in all their rights of first circle, limbo cared not purgatory. Like we mentioned, This is where you can like it's it's not terrible, but is hell in it's sort of unfair. Like you said, you know, if you're not like you could just be born before Christ and you could be in limbo right, like Aristotle's, their Aristotle was great virtuous and one of the greatest thinkers the world's ever produced. Yet he stuck in limbo because he existed before Christ. I couldn't possibly be safe. so. What's next last is next in this is pretty interesting too, and that in some other

people who had seen vis of how like the medieval nights. We talked about earlier there talking about, like oh yeah. They they, Neil your sack to aboard with rusty nails are just really juvenile stuff Dante. There's a lot more poetic in that his idea of lustres is further punishment for lost his new, no lovers or blown about by the wind. So that they can never quite get together and there's always, you know, kept just just out of each other's reach, which, as you know it, what more poetic than than the other one. Did you say nail your sack to aboard yeah like your backpack? Yes, ok, Third circle is gluttony here stuck in the mud and its you're being more by hail and freezing rain, And this is where he got a a bit of is bound to pick out on Florence, and I wanted to

replace, that was fourth circle is where we get into the greed in the Miserly basically the circle of moderation like don't go too far in either direction yet and he really kind of place into that symmetry as well, where on the one side or the people who are super gluttonous likes. This spend just tons of money, and then on the other side, there are the people who are super stingy hoard their money. There really two sides of the same coin. I think Dantes correct in that sense, and so they're, both in that same circle of hell, but on opposite sides of the circle. The negative balance number five. yeah. That's that's were those of us who are you'll get road rage will be determined in Vienna, return right here in the river sticks in that case, yeah just lost it. be like him, so much about everything Total number six. Everyone feels like a day.

Letterman top can resolve. These are heretics Caesar pagans. These are atheists these are people who, while they were on earth, were like a chicken. good time, while I'm here, I'm not worried about salvation yen epicurean in particular, as are now say why up a curious, and apparently he very much in his voice, we did not believe in any kind of after life, which is why there are like make the most of your time here on earth. I guess that's why I am here. It is it's basically another way to interpret. That is that these were people whose so discord by inject. In alternative ideas in into the believers. Mines Maybe I'm not there than no like also If you don't believe in an hour for life in your enjoying your time here on earth, did you go there either way you screwed either way what we will be there together

we also. I don't think we mention that Virgil, the poet Virgil, is the one who's guiding Dante around through these. These things- and I guess it's kind of act- is like his thumb oh, is the name. Should I renew your dolls and scrooged buster point acts even yet, Johannsen is acting as Dantes bust. Your point and so virtuous, skirting around they get to the seven circle of Hell bomb which contains Thea the city of DIS, which this earth distant. Sixth, nothing. I think this is, it's in the six, is it yeah, yeah yeah he's in the seventh comes after yeah, so and so a lot of a lot of people kind of chop up these circles of hell into the first through third, the second to the sixth and seventh, eyes in apparently Don T considered, basically the first through the sixes

all kind of generally in the same category, which was they were sins of continents were people just couldn't resist earthly temptation yearly data weakness of will there can't. You know they're being tormented because they made these choices, but also this is really it's forgivable, stuff Seven through nine is where who he considers the the genuine sinners, the evil people reside. This is where arsonist in murderers that he actually You know suicide is one of these in that seven circle, the eighth circle- and you know this as it gets little confusing, because in their smaller pockets, within these circles and again, if you're but scholar, Don T just I'm so so so so sorry Hopefully they turned his eyes, but aid circle is for tin kinds of fraud.

And then the ninth circle is finally were Satan is, and this is for forsaken in as the lead trader. Basically, trader, but traitor, right which is you know, there's a big one. For me, I mean it as a Pisces Van, a black Sabbath animal examples like loyalty. It is very important. Broken trust is to me, One of the worst thing someone can do- and so I didn't realize I was pc in nature. Yeah, pretty pc in Carry loyal very friendships and relationships are sort of the utmost importance trade is like just kind. The worst thing you can do gotcha, so this is this would be here here it really enjoy this year mean. I guess that's why I'm a circle but is interesting in that Satan. The ultimate trader to God is stuck there, but could get out in theory.

Satan, just realized that Ok, I'm beneath god- and I can recognize- God is being above me- not gods equal in its a frozen it gets more confusing, but it's a frozen lake, so low entity, I will do what we think about his Satan being fiery, because what happens is delayed, far in free Satan if he wasn't clapping his big bat wings to try and fly up to God, to prove he's as equal, but instead of Satan's wings. I guess during like fire, which you would think it. Actually, I guess is icy and it has a heap settling frozen right, but if he were just Jeff, he just give up stop beating his wings and then it would be all right yeah. Then you will be free, but then he just

and be saying any more. You not a majority, a broken version of Satan and who wants that right than we wouldn't had Sammy Davis, Juniors TB, violet yeah right exactly so I mean it's not like our idea Hell just ended. I don T suppose I kept that's. It does need to add to it like plenty of people have over time. One of the cruellest I've seen I cannot remember what it was, but I suspect it was in a yawn flux or tune member liquid you're on anti via the. I think somehow. in flux, ended up in Hell in like this, the fig weird conception of it was just so unsettling. Everything was just so off it was really well done now to go like see. If I can find it all I could find was that a conflict, the movie socked? That's all you can find when you, Sir, a on flax in Hell right now, but am I

We want to find that again. If I d always treated out yeah I mean you could do a whole. Second part guess absurd on popular vote, of hell in pop culture in movie. And tv and literature meanings Hieronymus Bosh is a great example. I love those paintings. This is a couple of. Centuries after inferno. These are the ones that look like sort of Andy. Foger album covers gum, their great, very cool stuff, and you know, like I said, there's scores of versions of hell from try Barker to marvel comic Strip to Sammy Davis Chow. Here in the good place all over the place, it's definitely something that's like I know it's just weirdly captured pop cultures, imagination just as much as it did. Thousands

here's a go with religion. You know one of the greatest kid, the one of the other great gum conceptions of the actual I've done a surly helmets. Hellish is found in this, as I think I mentioned before. Joyce Caroline Short story called night side where there's this sum seance, unlike the spirits that are contacted, are like all freaked out, because there No, it's all just chaos. Nobody, I think they keep saying like no one's in charge and like to everything, is out of order in it. It's a really like unsettling, read like church killer too so good with horror, but that that particular one is super disturbing. I highly recommend everyone. reading here and if you want to see a fun, take em afterlife watcher the Great Albert Bricks movie defending your life. It is such a great movie, one of the all time, great sleeper films, it ever wonderful, so good yeah, that's good! That's a treat right! There are good for you. The great upper Brooks yeah well since check can't stop talking about Albert Brook,

I think that means it's time for a listener me in fact a lot of people in others. Albert Brooks born Albert Einstein. No, yes! No! Yes, brother of Super Dave Osborne. I guess If I had known that, but only when Super Dave died recently right yeah, he d die there. His name was Einstein. everything Super Dave Osborne was Super Dave Einstein. No, I think it was Bob. Einstein let him had to know. I think so were there he's like from the Larry Bud, moment era, let him in good stuff. So if you want to know more about held to start sinning, you're a off in your face, out about it soon enough and like I said since Chuckie talk about Albert, proves this time for listening,

yeah to call this one of our great senior listeners and this this Ladys from Australia, hello, guys I'm an eighty year old woman in aged care. My It was very mundane white boring. I finally bottom mobility. Scooter now get out and ride the wonderful pathways and visit the shops and my son- I thought I needed more interest. So he looked my phone up to Josh and Chuck POD gas, nice wow. Our capitals, how I love riding around on my scooter in listening to your wonderful humor and mostly interesting things in quotes. I love it, so perhaps she Vanessa I have learned so much about everything, love Elvis Nixon furry, Narc Badge bill. bolder, Damn Francis Perkins, etc. Just everything guys keep up the good work, cheers

from Glinda on the Sunshine Coast, Queensland, Australia, very nice those Glinda right now, just love hearing from Glinda she's great thank you go and a year Glenda should write in every once in awhile, just say hi and talk about her favorite recent episode. I would love it. I think you Glenda, if you're listening, please do that and was our Son Richard Robert Robert Robert, thank you for turning your mama and sufficient yeah, well, if you wanna talk about how you turn somebody on the study should know. We would love to you about that. That's great you can write. in an email, wrap it up spent on the bottom and send it off to stuff podcast, Iheart Radio, Doc Stuckey should know. Is production of Iheart radio for more podcast, my heart radio, I heard radio apple podcast or wherever

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