Empathy can often be confused with sympathy and regular old compassion. But it's not exactly either one of those. Some say a lack of empathy can indicate sociopathic tendencies, but that's not always true either. So what is empathy and what makes someone prone to empathize? Listen in to find out.
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Hey, you may have noticed this path. Saturday, you got an extra episode of stuff, you should now yeah aspires
if so lax, but try. It was not a mistake. What we decided to do here after nine plus years is you know me
you don't know that we have nine hundred plus episodes.
So we're gonna start throwing out a
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You should know from house to work Stockholm pay and welcome to the podcast Josh Clark. There's Charles. The view shook
My shoulder, Brian
Jerry about a hug loading
No! Actually, I am sorry Gerizzim Spirit. Our guest producer today is no maternal, my beard, heals all brown. Yes, everybody knows it's no browser. Are you using your into the voice? Yes, if working
four and nobody really hurts the beady eyes say, had cut you for ten dollars. How are you, sir? I'm feeling numb empathetic good?
good. I have some very strong appeal.
Inside empathy and not just empathy by empathy, research and pretty
pillar is I'm sure you're, not at all surprised to hear. I am not at all surprised to hear the did. You come to the same or similar conclude
as I did now know, yet we don't talk about this stuff beforehand. That's true! That's how you that's the magic
going blind did you know that
like him, Atlanta magic thing now. Would you mean with society something some
I just saw a sign for it in all fourth word, but there's like here seems to be a legitimate magicians
with the castle and allay the MAGIC castle. It's not that, but it's probably something that
The people who do the Atlanta thing are unsure aware of the MAGIC castle. Probably, and then you did a double, take it the sign and disappeared
was to be great owing to the MAGIC ass a once lucky yeah its awesome, I think
have a conversation, because I asked you ve seen a documentary about the kids competition at the magic gas on yeah have not, but it's really good you're here. If you can, I highly wreck
and if you can get in you gotta know somebody he had an event stellar
really know, there's some movie that he was in that took place in the MAGIC Caslon. He was like the bad guy, I think, and armor one or maybe a documentary. All a second teacher
already way home have an interest in it? Are you familiar with frank, rich? The left, leaning left ear,
I say yes, I think so he he's good his about. Is he
about as good in essayists is you'll find on the left arm he's a consultant, I'm weep, he
he's hilarious any knows his stuff right.
He usually rice fur Harpers, but is also got a regular gig in New York magazine, and indeed
magazine recently? He published a call em. I think this week
while this week as a former recording is- and I think it was called like no sympathy for the hill
oh you're, something like that. They know is basically
This is really astounding come from him, but it was basically him saying you know what
I know that on the left, people tend to
you're, bleeding heart liberals and want to empathize with everybody and feel everyone else's pain and understand where
are coming from, but I
I believe that if you voted for Trump and you're angry,
or if he I believe, if you're angry at the people who voted for tramper angry that trumpets president, you should be angry at the people who voted amended into office as well, and he basically
a drum which I also
You see in other places as well, where it's like now
We don't have to understand people who voted for trouble. You dont have to love your enemy. Let's go
go to war with these people and its mandate in this legitimate, totally serious to end it amounts to basically
all to go to the dark side, to resist everything that you know. The left has
finally prides itself on end. Just go
ultra war against the right,
and Don T seem like a really bad idea to me, but one of the things it stuck out to me about it. The most was that it was so
contrary to the
ethos. The prevailing thought.
Of the time, or at least what made up the Obama administration, which was we need
be more empathetic. We need an undertaking in people's plight and even after Hilary lost people into the big postmortem,
hurried and connect with blue collar workers who
of work. She was totally
What's with the Georgian empathize with them? Well, I think it further. Post mortem has been like Hilary could empathize with those people all day, but they hated her and they were never going to vote for and now frank
Them back is the thing again. I disagree with that, but it really points out how water
fragile. Turning point we're out right now, this path in history and America are we going to stay
Just keep trying to be empathetic early again. Just gonna go forward to the dark side and in just
but he's gonna hate everybody whose doesn't he's not like them mile. Quite an intro. Thank you for coastal elite
Oh I'm not occur misgiving. I dislike that phrase.
I hope I'm not man. I really don't think I am, and I hope people don't think I am. I do. Sir
my pinky in the air when I take steps of water in their waters been struck?
through a franciscan monks. Mouth fur
I don't like the only water I'll drink. I think you can be a customer elite. If you have your roots in Toledo right exactly
I'm, not man. I really don't think I am, and I hope people don't think I am. I do stick my pinky in the air. When I take six of water,
right. This is, he hurt. You part shock at all on their yeah, I'm sure it Wilson
our aids or talking empathy here, a lot of the sun familiar so much so that I, like quadruple, checked
had not done this, and I think we do
talked about it a lot in, namely.
In our mirror. Neurons episode, yeah and Ike
thought about that when a lot when I was researching this, why think is definitely component of empathy but is not to be confused with empathy, its direct part of it, I think, is the impression I have agreed. So I'm empathy, if you look at our knots,
article five. They do to find it. You know everyone can who knows what it is, but it just to be clear: it's not sympathy, it's it's. If
you can feel and share someone else's. Emotions is empathy which is different than sympathy and that you don't you're, not feeling it, but you do care about it
right it's like em. You can understand why someone would be feeling like their feeling is intellectual rights,
these from the brain and empathy is from play the heart and a lot of these words. When we get into the definitions of empathy inverse compassion, it gets a little
I don't know. Sometimes I feel like people can a splitting hairs was so Amazon danger. That's me, Chuck is a huge red flag, that
the old is not nearly as established his people like to think, if there's still confusion on basic terms like empathy and sympathy here and there,
his dinner changeable ie. Just me,
there's. No one is doing the right kind of hard core researcher. Publishing the right kind of hard core papers said:
is what it is, or this is what it not, and this is what it isn't. Yeah agreed. Almost you said this is what it not is, because we're late
no coastal with, but there was an original german word, I'm feeling which means feeling into an that's were empty comes from, and if you talk to an expert
researcher. These days are gonna talk about a couple of types of empathy.
Directive, or maybe emotional, empathy and cognitive empathy and I'm the distinction is
as it turns out, is pretty important into me
to me, this is where a little bit of the splitting hairs comes in because, as far as shocking about effective empathy versus compassion like is it the same thing or I'm sorry, cognitive empathy would be more like compassion because you're not really taking on
someone else's pain, so compassion, I think, is even like a third word. This is so. This is what I came up with.
You got cognitive, empathy, witches sympathy right
I can understand why someone would be feeling a certain way. Then you ve got effective empathy or
he'll empathy which Rwanda calls it ok, which is like you
really putting yourself in that prison, choosing you're feeling how their feeling I turn, but
compassion. It seems to me is the end goal of this. That's where you actually moved to act. That's where you do something about, as where you put your hand
and shoulder and say
gonna be all right or you know, here's a cheque for five hundred dollars to get some crucial
Who knows what you're gonna do, but I think to me compassion is the act like the action
and goal of empathy, whether its cognitive,
or arm or effective? And that's that's it. I think- and you know why
This field is so and established that I can just say that stuff yeah
and is probably right. Let us say that has turned how we can really come along and say definitively that you're not right right.
So you know to put given you an example of what that might mean effective or emotional empathy. If some of you ass a friend
and remember going through a very hard time and
distraught and then you are also distraught just like they are, then that is definitely effective. Empathy, whereas you're not decide. Our man, you know,
your uncle passed away. I'm really sorry to hear that, and I feel terribly for you. But if you are, you know
actively. Taking that on to the point where you're trying to
and you didn't know the uncle, because our
the differentiation right, so I don't think so. You don't have a personal stake in it, but you're still taking it on as it is your own yes,
and then, depending on your view of things and we'll talk a lot about this. This is really great psychologist named Paul Bloom, who his best
dedicated a lot of his life to shoot
down ideas of how great empathy is. I thought he was. I thought he made a lot of people
since a now might agree with either, but he is great. His is really good at poking holes in the concept of empathy there he points out that that I guess it's probably good. If somebody
think someone's in a great mood and your empathetic and sharing, and that great mood and amplifying it yeah, but on the flip side of the coin, if somebody is in a horrific, really, tragically sad mood and you
sitting there, amplifying that by joining in part and parcel with it, then you you're doing a disservice right right. Yes,
in sum, in some ways or other say, Paul blooms whole basing his whole thesis and I said,
tried to it as well as that cognitive is far and away the superior of the two types of empathy. As far as the ultimate goal, which, again to me, is compassion. Yes, you wanna just pepper and some of his stuff as we go sure that make sense because it here's a great spot to- and this is one of the studies I imagine
now, if you had a problem with it, but I promise a lot of these studies yet, but there was a study on at least one were psychologist said
Many will you donate to develop a drug that would save one child's life.
And then another group was asked: how much would you donated to develop a drug that would save eight kids,
and it was about the same answer where things changed was when they asked a third group
about the one child, but they showed a picture of the kid and, like you know, said this, is this little Joey he's fourteen years old, and this is his sad little face?
and then donations really shot up. And
this is where what was his name problem, Pablo psychologists yet
we're Paul Bloom says, did
this emotional empathy is for the birds, because a it's it's done its narrow and be it's very, like people tend to want to help people that are like them.
So it's yeah mean bias. Is that of the right word. Super biased here
and it makes no sense. Not only does it not scale upward as the number of people affected by say, like a tragedy increase it actually
the other way where the more people that are affected by something the less empathetic a person tends to be, whereas it
say, is one person and you know that person's name, and you see that person
Picture on the news, and yet they look
you or your neighbor, your daughter, dragging to emphasise a white shirt, but at the same time they could beat. You know the same thing could be happening to fifty thousand other people.
If you'll just vote a certain way, you can alleviate their suffering. You wouldn't lift a finger to do it, especially if it
slightly higher taxes for you. So in that sense, empathy makes no sense whatsoever.
Yeah. I mean he's encoded mother Teresa in his in this essay witches, which is quote, if
Look at the mass. I will never act. If I look at the
one? I will so he's gonna that the heavy hitters there
you know when you bring mother Teresa in their economies, have always MAC yeah. But you know he makes a good point. Oh yeah like
that study does at. I didn't have a big problem of that study. Music does can approve that out right that was Tillier,
an Ilona written off their psychologists and then
written in another co, authored conducted another study where they kind of,
without one of the problems with empathy, which was, they said, ok, I'm to different groups of people. I heard this that that a vaccine maker caused a child, her life, the grail, the child, because the vexing now
should the vaccine maker be fined, and then one group was told that the fine would probably make the vaccine maker follow
guidelines even more strictly and would probably prevent accidents
and then the other further accidents and then the arm. The other group was told that this fine would probably make their backs
maker get out of the business and more people will die because they couldn't get the vaccine, and both groups said that, yes, the vaccine maker should be punished with the highest fine.
Possible right with extreme prejudice right so that the upshot of all of this is that, especially with effective empathy.
As we understand it. We we it doesnt, it doesnt
although any kind of rational guidelines in wrath the basis of rationality. Being that, too, is
important than one right and empathy
doesn't go in that direction. Yeah, but
interestingly, while you can train yourself to be more empathetic, it definitely to me feels like something that you're sort of born with
certain agree or maybe in the formative years he might gain, but
and blooms article he talks about babies and is, as soon as a baby,
and get up and start getting around they're gonna try and comfort like you're, going to a pre school
there's another baby, crying you pupil.
We see another little baby walking over there and patting the little baby and stroking the baby? There is nothing more adorable Socrates, the horrible
I'll check. It happens in the animal kingdom, although that they did not do so.
France, the wall that map pray, Metalogy s notice.
Humans in a way that a chimpanzee might really like put like Hog a victim of an attack, but it's gotta be another job,
like it, I like there was smashed the brains out of another kind of monkey, maybe if it wonders into their little village right, that's me: can
underscores this whole. This whole thing like when we
When we look at empathy with the first question that people
there's like why don't we have more empathy or why do we have empathy for everybody raw rise, and it seems like based on France, the walls, studies and
other studies about the than
of in group and our group behaviour like we, we have
over hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years, for
More than that, if here, if we are also looking at the great Apes Ranger to see other groups, there aren't like us as threatening right. It makes sense in an evolutionary
why why anything? I totally, unlike the last ten eleven thousand years, that we settle down and started forming cities. But even then there was a group in our group. People, you didn't recognize were coming to kill you for your crops, so you need to fight those people. You didn't
empathize with them. Oh your hungry, so you're gonna take my life. I understand right, they didn't they didn't job.
With natural selection right? But then you add jets into the mix in the tv.
And then the internet and all of a sudden works.
Those two more in groups and archives, and our expect
get along more civilly than ever before, but our evolution has caught up quite a fright so now we're face. At this point words like: ok,
We just need to figure out how to empathize more and this last vestige, that's holding bacco completely civil global society will fade away in France to all put it pretty
I said this is the challenge of our time. Global.
Nation, by a tribal species. Yeah! That's where we're facing right now here in raw right now, I feel like at least to the United States, were backsliding yeah, but it's a good place to take a break,
Yeah are able we're gonna come back in just a minute, talk a little bit about something called the racial empathy gap
so I promised to some talk about,
race and there's something called the racial empathy gap. Studies of kind of I mean if you will
IRAN is a living breathing, huge human being. You can probably tell them that something, but they have
studies on it and on a lot of these studies are little hanky to me, but
then one they showed video clips of a needle going into someone skin, notably a white person skin at first and what they found was
white people reacted more or with more empathy when the needle went into white skin, then, when it went into dark skinned right,
or they had they showed more signs of distress like they started to sweat, a little more sure their hearts beat a little faster yeah. That's what
think mere neurons might come into play right right, yeah, that's what they're.
Rain wiring. That's a huge problem,
with reading about empathy and the popular media, there are huge jobs from mere neurons to full on effective empathy with just as the switchover sentence and then earn
the stroke of a headline like,
so people are not talking about the same thing and I'm sure
plenty of empathy, researchers out there that are dislike guys guys. This is not like you're making huge jump to conclusions
shut up, does matter were selling click the azure, but so yes, that's so
surely setting off mere neurons. I don't understand how its being translated into empathy. Aside from I think
of the empathy studies were involved self reporting right. So I think what they're doing is there saying? Oh well, subjects, thirteen twenty nine?
Their heart really started beating and look at this, and this questionnaire they filled out. They really.
Citizens cells in emphasizing person, if so in other person, is responding very emphatically right now to see
needle yeah like what, if they showed painted someone's skin green,
Well, they have they ve done Violet tenanted, actually, really the truth. As far as correlating myself reports that there does tend to be pretty good
the only the truth, will they didn't just generally all people respond
to that one? Her didn't they
think yet is actually there
something going on there, though, I mean when I like, discounting that, because they have done studies that show that
minorities, maybe dont get
medication like they should compare. The white people in an old seems, like a racial into the gap, is a pretty decent explanation for that future or in the criminal justice system, which we talked.
What about or maybe just in empathy altogether between races set. So
if you, if you're a judge, though and you're you're, not following
sentencing guidelines you're, just using your own personal biases, to hand out sentences, and you have people's wives and
it is in your hands here
following the law you're following your advice, you're peace, a garbage
nothing to do with you being and apathetic person or not. What about that judge who are
I, the swimmer, who raped the girl by the dumpster. It was obvious
judge was kind like or look at this kid like? Oh, I don't want to ruin his few yeah I'd want to ruin his reach. Her like that could have been my sign. You know, like kind of like me, who was clearly bias,
that is going on because he was like him
and there's no way, if that would have been some black kid that he wouldn't have ruled differ.
I guess there's! No, no one can convince me that that that's not the truth right and I think that
like there's another distinction that eventually going to be hammered out too, like I don't think he was empathizing with that swimmer. Kid
was. I could be wrong. Who knows, but I think he was
at the very least exhibiting a biased that yet the area he let the kid off off the hook, because
he looks like I'm not as you might have sympathising with them now sure yeah, I guess even a flight out said like this- could ruin his life right here. He was deafening sympathizing, at least for sure.
So I'm going
a bit too philosopher, Adam Smith, way back in the day, I think was
merely talking about mere neurons, even though he did know. That was a thing at the time when he wrote that persons of delicate fibres who noticed
beggar, sores and ulcers are apt to feelin itching or uneasy sensation in the corresponding part of their own bodies and that's ab
lately mirror neurons firing off yeah
We ve been saying that a lot of you don't know what we're talking about. Listen to ordinary, feel someone else's paint yeah. Can you feel so, Spain as from a few years ago, but it was
one of my favorites. We ve ever done. Just guess it's o fascinating. You really is. The brain is wired like that in its work,
the reason why this is, as you know, the easiest way to explain it like. If you see like a football game,
someone's, like gets broken, and you literally heavy alike pain, should, through your body that,
Those are mere neurons. Did you see there is the Simpsons recently where
Grand Hatton is back in college and he goes to like high five. Is the correct lacrosse player, because the high five, the college mascot, which is like a guy in a suit of armor, any breaks? His wrist and like fifty play
and they show they cut to the sidelines. Enjoyeth Iceman takes heroin
Is it a man
Well, there's nothing! I think we talked about, then an episode yeah. I still, I dont think I still have ever seen. You don't need to think I do
like how can I be walking in talking through life and not have seen Joe thousand break his leg clouds, whether things when you see a body get there?
in a very unnatural, was like direction is just yet you, your brain is hardware. Do not accept that. I know it's pretty makes you faint cause your brains. I can't see more speaking of the brain chuck. Let's talk a little bit about the brain right
So what we ve already kind of touched on. One of the issues that I think we both have with empathy research is that the disease
designs of the studies are just so shoddy its it mind boggling yet, but then the other part of it
Well, just leave it to neuroscience, but neurosis,
the still using the same old MRI
is that it was before and again always showing is that's where more oxygen is in the past,
brain right Andrei we're gonna call
add to that part of the brain being lit up. So that means that this
the brain has to do with them. Looking at pictures, Abou,
this is the right, and this is like the level that that neurology is is as far as behavioral studies goes right. You put these two together. This is the state of the art with with empathy research, but with the brain
or is that goes. They have kind of isolated a few different parts and again this is kind of like we think that this has to do with this process to speak,
in trial after trial, the same circuit,
and followed the same region is lit up on. We apply this stimulus to different people, so there's a there's, there's good evidence that
this does have to do is say empathizing whatever, but it still is very
rule, is a rudimentary understanding at this plant think compared to say, like fifty years from now right. So what what what they ve, what they think they figured out
is that there is a part of the brain and other parts of the brain. The effective, effective emily-
part of the brain- is called the insular cortex. That's where they think that the effective region are part of the effective region. Last year, the anterior insular cortex and then the cognitive empathy.
Is thought to reside, originate in the mid, singular cortex yet annexed.
Those came from a Monash University research paper. That's that look
the concentration of grey matter, the density of
that's like the neurons, whereas white matters like the connecting material right yet and so they're saying
people who have really effective empathy.
Have denser in insular core taxes courtesies,
for a really serious cognitive. Empathy have dense, mid, singular courtesies right, that's what
right now here they did a pretty interesting test. This Tanya Tenaya Singer- and this do name Matthew, Ricard, he's a buddhist monk, and I get the idea that they pick this guy, because he can.
Very much control, his brains and emotion.
So what they did was he's a buddhist monk. They did some fm our eye brains getting on the sky and they said all right. Sir Mister regard his they. Please call me Matthew
here, we would like you to engage in some different types of compassion and meditate and
record, meditation towards people who are suffering and then they they hooked them up to the to the brain, scan magic machine and this they found that the meditative states
it was actually surprising to them, did not activate parts of the brain that are usually,
aided by Non meditated when they
about pain, but he said you know it was. It was good for me
Firstly, it was a warm positive state and he
I now put yourself in this what you know
they would call the emotional empathetic state in
as he is able to turn that on, like a switch
yeah thanks happily in blood
comes out of his nose in different parts of the brain lit up, and he said this
Eric sharing very quickly
intolerable to me. I felt emotionally exhausted a very similar to being burnt out.
That's one of the big arguments against this
emotional or effective. Empathy is that ie.
You can't take on everyone else's pain like this will see your soul,
worker or you're a nurse or doktor like it's gonna, drive you
saying: oh yeah, oh you you'll burn out. It's called empathy distress. Yet when they talk to patients like hospital patients
They don't want that either they want. They want
maybe someone who has some sympathy, but patients are more
likely to feel better. Why
Is this imagining a doktor coming in and is falling to pieces years? Your condition values are like coming year? Will you don't like you said you don't wanna doctor, and I know that they feel better if their doktor is
cynical and reassuring and really seems like they have it together, which makes sense
yeah, you know what's amaze like a frankly, I couldn't care less well
live or die. I went somewhere in between those two, yes which which is where,
oh, my god, you're gonna die like you know what that at your doktor now, but it seems that
the middle of that those two speck, that those two ends of the spectrum is worth cognitive. Empathy comes in yeah, we'll talk about. We take a break here. Second break. It sounds good
and we'll come back, we promise
I mean what are you talking about such a bearing on? I still never. Actually
looked up, whether that's his brother cousin, and what
Simon Other related. Yes, psychologist, Simon, bearing going wrote a book into doesn't love and call the sides of evil and he's
he's way down with empathy, bigtime yeah, I guess it they describe him. Is it a thoughtful defender is what bloom
I promise of everybody, and he has a ranking system and empathy curve from zero to six in zero.
Is no empathy, basically or sociopath, and six is you. I guess the most hard core of emotional impasse via you're in it, the ecology
constant state of hyper arousal right, and he had this one woman that he used in Israel example Name Hannah who was a therapist? It's probably a great job for her, but she's. Just one of these people that it by all accounts is just
I heard that way like her friends and family in her patients like she just really feels for them all right, like is not just a job which is in itself,
is there probably help some people, but in other ways, is really probably number one off putting and even, if
Nobody like that, it's bad for her! In the end,
I gave you or not we're not design,
carry everybody's problems and issues with us all the time.
Yeah that's kind. The main point bloom is making is that people like Hanner, headed for Petitoire burn out
sorry for her and he also does make the point that friends
family dont, like they need a certain.
That empathy, but you don't want someone it's always like in that state
we also want someone. That's like all right. Let's turn that frown upside down. Let's go out and take a walk. You know like you, don't want someone. It's always cries when you cry in her, I knew this can be.
I thought I had a bad, but in, and you can extend that also to the way that people react in some ways to say like a mass tragedy or something like that, like like look at new town right, the sandy hook, shooting twenty small kids were killed
Adults were also kill it elementary school. It was the most ports.
Tragedy. I think that ever took place in the United States. It was based
clear the one that everyone who believe
in very strict gun control was waiting.
Was new new. Is gonna happen sooner or later and thought this is gonna, be the tipping point and it didn't happen, I what people reacted too, with what
outpourings of donations, yeah lots of stuff
walls. Apparently there were three for every resident of the town were sent, stepped out, yeah and dumb lots of thoughts and prayers.
And, if you ever have seen you know Anthony just like yeah he's clean,
here he hasn't Netflix special. I think it's still on called thoughts and prayers.
Watch that leads play see just how valuable your thoughts and prayers are especially on twitter yeah. But the problem points out is like this. Actually
proved to be. This outpouring proved to be an additional burden on this town, which is already suffering tremendously like they had it. There is some
a hundred volunteers who were test
with handling all the donations weather.
Stuffed animals or money and they appear
How to get a warehouse to put all the stuffed animals in, and I think even some of the public officials really please stop sending a stuff send stuff
send it to other people. We ve got everything right Senate. Other people
said now shut up. This is about us, not you, and I think that that's part of effective empathy, the outpouring of snow
it seems like a nice gesture that makes you feel better but doesn't actually help in
any real, substantial way here. I think that kind of underlies or betrays
What effective empathy
is all about and why we move to do something with effective empty, because we're feeling some
right there in writing a chance
her sending a teddy bear is a good way to to feel better yet for us to feel better where
as cognitive empathy would be like I'm
owing to see to it that every
the senator who blocked the gun. Control bill following new town rise voted right out of office right there would be
cognitive, empty, your empathizing with the the parents, your empathizing, with future kids, who haven't been killed yet and you're gonna do what you can to make sure it doesn't happen rather than writing a check or sending a teddy bear. Those too
the real distinctions between cognitive and effective empathy. As far as the autumn,
All is concerned which is again compassion, but
passion is doing
you can to improve the outcome for the greater good, yeah yeah. That's interesting and another thing that
can I jumped out to me. Was these psychologists, Vicki, Harrison and Heidi Fritz
they were researching why women are more likely to think twice. Ass likely is meant to get depressed and experienced depression. I saw the two and they thought you know they said you know
it is because women are more empathetic in there. You know emotionally empathetic and they take this on and they said that there's propensity for that,
unmitigated communion, which is- and I quote, in excess of concern with others in placing others needs before one's own end quote, and they knew no gave people- and this is
are, like a nine item questionnaire. How much can you really learn, but some of the statements agree or disagree with
like for me to be happy and others to be happy. I can't say no: when someone asked for help,
often worry about others, problems in kind of across the board
and were higher than men do on this.
And you know, I think, a lot of that probably has to do with with evolution to with her. You know, women having to care for their babies right out of the gate right, which looks wife at no other, took we know
ever took a wife right you got around, but the women it took tat would would knock up
They would immediately be in charge of those babies and that's what I'm that premature just talked about
it was. You know this is kind of straight up evolution or not
election is right out of the gate. We have this empathy because we have
care for young right and then
already mentioned to you and then that definitely evolves and to protect the tribe right because were better off.
People around us are healthy and happy and ready to ward off attacks. Yeah, I'm with
the idea that women
are more prone to experience, say effective empathy
It is even empathy in general is actually
has a biological basis to tell you the truth to check in in adolescence or puberty. Currently, girls have they score high for effective
Kathy throughout their entire adolescence. Where between
about ages. Thirteen and sixteen boys, effective empathy, Dick
did they take a vacation yeah? They say they know. You feel bad, typical, jerks nearby to feel worse cause. I'm gonna, give you slowly yet happened. It separately is, but it is where you stick someone's hidden, toiling flush, swirling,
that fortunately, I'd only heard of it never witnessed it or had its enemy. We didn't know geese and was it wedges when you did underwear sure yeah gathered
They are terrible and that's bulling behaviour
and there are some theories about bullies- do that they actually use empathy to manipulate people like that, though, use it against them
Yeah we had only they stay, used, cognitive empathy to calculate the best and most effective way to hurt him
and then they turn off. Any potential were like effective empathy
in their actually carrying out their active bullying, yeah and with it
major sue. They they say that if you develop effective and cognitive empathy that you're going to
be happier who can argue less with your parents. You can have more healthy relationships which, in Canada,
sense shirt and they also were saying to him. We would get into how to increase your own empathy if you think the kind of things a good idea, but their babies
empathy out of egg out of the gate by being empathize with by being treated warmly by right, their parents and other adults yapping,
splendid too in a war manner that that actually is the beginning of empathy, and it's like you said you can see a little kid. An appreciable
over and comfort or console another little kid you're home, whose in distress boy? That's. Why, when I hear about neglect like baby, an infant neglect is just a man like the most hard
can thing you can imagine. I get a baby dislike left in a room to cry and cry and cry yeah forever. Possessive meme
we are talking about. The breastfeeding episode that body to body contacted being held, shows or has been shown to affect their
I mean if they don't have enough yeah, this is all sorts of terrible things that happen to you in your neglected is a baby terrible, so check there
people who say well. We need to emphasise more suggested
therein learn how to empathize, there's plenty people out there who will teach you techniques and empathizing with people more and they may be worth trying.
Like I found them very helpful and a lot of cases, especially teacher and interpersonal communication yeah, but as
is like changing the world on a massive scale. For for the better. Is it again
dear to go out and just empathize empathize empathize, because there's a big question mark with that who exactly
first to empathize, with, like with justice,
Every problem there is a group, that's being helped by something in a group, is being her harm by something, especially when it comes to public policy right so which group you gonna empathize, with the view of the ties with the current victims, any change public policy too,
them well in your leaving the people who are currently benefiting our call right right. So there's a big question of who
should empathize with at any given point in time, which makes this whole.
You're all science knowledge, politics bs!
that is ultimately behind this whole pushed to empathize. More that it's not here.
That any consideration and others a kind of a second facet to that which is studies have found that when you increase empathy in people.
They tend to empathize more with their own group, but it all
in kind increases hostility in those people towards our group's out. You know him
like they see their friend, whose being hurt is more of a victim in how could you do this to them? And now I want to get you back, because one of the sour size of empathy is that it is frequently
with a taste for retribution too, I think, is how Paul bloom put it. While the dark side of empathy,
so just yeah, there is a dark side. There's a dark side, everything in their except you all dark side, you're. All right.
So uh finish up here with a bit on people with autism, because there's this stereotypes that if
you ve everyone's probably heard it that you know it. People autism, like empathy and they don't understandable.
And if you know anybody who either has
tourism or is apparent of a child with autism. They will dispel that myth pretty
right up just from their own lives, but these people did some ice
being in some research, because there are like that's, not good enough for me and is not good enough. Did you say that, like you know, every autism is.
For everyone right have some people have empathy surety without doesn't show empathy, so both everyone's different. So who cares about investigate
yes, I really love the approach they took here. They were kind of really wanted to keep digging which are really respected, so
they said you know what I think might be going on here? There's other condition
old elects a female and
elected EMU means you have a difficulty
understanding your own emotions, so you might, you know you might
They have a feeling that you are experiencing an emotion, but you just don't know what it is about. Ten percent of people have it in the regular population about fifty percent of people of autism have elects Apamia they're, not this.
Thing no, and these guys actually found that people without
some who do not have elects a theme year. Tender display empathy, yeah anyone. You know lots of empathy right lots of everything, the empathy they got, binders for empathy fighters
that's a conveyor area, our remembering that was the most controversial thing going in politics, a man finders full of empathy,
yeah like they had, they sort, you know
strong when it came to measuring empathy and what they did was there any other makes sense already. Did it's very. I really like this study they had for group.
Individuals with Autism and Alexandria individuals without ISM without it
individuals with elected amiable, autism, and then people they didn't have either one, and it basically seems too can approve that yeah. It's just not true that people with autism dont have empathy. It's really elects a female
what's going on right, which is, I think, a novel finding or a novel hypothesis. I don't think this is part of a larger field. I think these his case came up with that
did you see that other study, the from goldsmiths University of London, about the facial expressions yeah? I thought that was pretty interesting to gather the the investigated that if you expose people,
thought ism to the sounds of people's voices and ask them to re, wait emotion that person is experiencing there far better. It come calling that correctly then faces yeah and apparently because people without his intend to spend much less time studying faces, not because they can't empathize. They just start using cues that people without autism use to conclude what emotions
third experiencing yeah, really interesting stuff, and we know why they didn't get more play because it still seems like people cannot
Bang in that drum that you know people with autism darn it
Thank you. I don't! I don't know why. Either this make sense,
We need to do in entire episode on autism yeah, maybe like Slovenia, that I never heard of that. We also
Do you wanna psychopaths
is another group that tends to be appointed to is kind of income
these fires- empathy. Girls were if you're lacking empathy, you're a psychopath were actually turns out,
if you have was called a shallow, affect brightening like you across the board, emotionally you're pretty stunted and
shallow or superficial. That's what really qualifies use a psychopath noticed missing empathy right, but yet again
Other popular misconception is being allowed to persist. I'm just irritated Chuck hasn't happened. I've got a great quote, though, from power
room, and I also want to say that I think that Empathy- also
different kinds. Empathy also get divided among the genders as well, and we ve been said. We ve talked about the study that concluded that women tend to suffer.
Depression because a more empathetic right, I think that maybe that's the case.
There is a biological basis for it and adolescents, but one thing that seems to persist everywhere is that different types of empathy, you're different techniques
Empathy to produce empathy can be learned. They can be taught yet and I think
to say, like women, I really want to solve this problem. I'm not gonna fly off the handle, I'm not gonna lose my marbles. I'm gonna, like really put some thought into it. Nations
be compassionate, but I don't have to completely experience someone else's paint. I dont think that better, a biological
parity of one way or another. I think if you decide to make a choice,
for a change in the way you approach situations that has nothing to do with gender. So right as find a point that out here and as far as teaching empathy
there's been a little bit of pooling of emotional empathy, but I think it's nothing. It's definitely like a pretty good thing to do is apparent to train teacher child. Like hey, you know, how would you feel if
was doing this to you yeah and that's how they learn yeah. Exactly do you don't learn and on your own? I think it has
imparted by good parents agreed and again the the goal, and this is a problem
cause it to two out of every single person. Like you love the people closer to you. Better value
other people, just for the very fact that their human being's right that right goal, then everybody
for with with empathy- and this is called our best hope for the future is not
People to think of all humanity is family, that's impossible, Eliza. Instead in an appreciation of the fact that, even if we don't empathize with distant strangers there
have the same value as the lives of those we love. Does Turkey very interesting now good stuff, good stuff? We should set title this one empathy,
Lucy Goosey episode, also known as what Paul Bloom says. Thank you problem. Yet big big up the problem.
Since I said biggest supplier bloom, the means it's time for listener, male chuck,
I'm gonna call. This look worms
hello from the Sunny South United States summit
those aren't lazy and done they just head hookworm great title by the way, Josh thinking
I brought back a childhood memory and finally handwriting guys group in Florida, so we spent most of the summer weather shoes off
and I remember my mother- distinctly remind me to wear shoes, so I would
get the ground. It is never happen,
I call my mom, who is now eighty eight years old, to verify facts and now about when I saw a girl
from five to seven
started. My mother would give me a worm treatment on my feet.
Explain to her what I learned or in the pot guess about hookworms and how they have
the body when I mention how they cause,
severe anemia and cause a body to be more susceptible to illness. She remembered a story,
fathers cousin, apparently the cousin was so and became so incredibly ill. She was very good
the dying they took in the hospital and found out. She was severely anemic before
again any other diagnostics. They decided sister for hookworm, an bingo. As my mother said, she was full of them
she had a high worm burden, she's dead
mom said it's at three treatments to get rid of the worms. The story was, she was so unfair
they literally came out of her mouth when she was being treated. Oh, my god,
wow. That is the best story of her no sheep and dread disease. I know right because anything she anticipated their reaction.
That's why you don't wanna, be six point: o effective empathetic person gathered right
This cousin is actually still alive and in her early nineties
so this would have been in the nineteen forties. I hope she doesn't listen to this
warm and fancy free in Florida. Some Terry Brunson, Panama City, nice, things like Terry
The great email had everything had.
Rollercoaster right. There was a cousin who have words coming out of her mouth laughed. I cried, there's a mom
also an old man and older, an old cousin.
With a worm. Treatment consisted of a bet there is there? Can there somewhere-
If you want to tell us about your family's weird remedies, we want to know the ingredients are you can treat them to us as why escape podcast or
hit me up at Josh Underscore Underscore Clark.
Can hang out with some facebook at Facebook that comes less than he should know, or Facebook that comes less Charles of you check right, send an email, the stuff podcast. The house support,
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Transcript generated on 2020-01-10.