Hey folks, I want to tell you about the room by seven plus robot vacuum. It features the clean base automatic dirt disposal which automatically empties its own. Been into an hour and lock bag that hold sixty days of debris in captures. Ninety nine percent Apollon Mould and thus mites. So you can forget about vacuuming four months at a time if it's not from a robot, it's not a for offers and to learn more. Two, I robot dotcom, slash stuff, that's the letter. I robot dotcom, slash stuff, hey everybody, its Josh and Chuck, and we're coming to see you guys some of you, some cities just listen up, that's right, because you know we just did Chicago in Toronto and went great, and I think our topic of what really well sure did everyone loved hearing about me right. So, if you're in Boston Incomes is August. Twenty ninth, the Wilbur Portland made maned

state theatre on August thirty that can't wait another labour, any weakening of the state the whole weekend I'll be all over me. That's great men, world. We're gonna be in Orlando on October night and day I told her tenth we're gonna, be in New Orleans meant and then later on that month, we're doing a three nights. Stand the twenty third twenty four than twenty fifth at the Bell House in Brooklyn. That's right! Twenty fifth is sold out. You can still get tickets for the twenty third twenty. Fourth, we will see then check it out there That's! Why ask alive dot com? Well, step. You should now a production of high radios, hast upward work under the Pakistan Josh Clark and urge Charles the reach of brain there's Jerry over there. This is done You should know that continuing courtroom drama edition,

yeah this one. I think if you take our podcast on memory and our pancreas on police lineups, they made love here. Then It would have this baby as came a little arouse Chuck Peter here. This is, I guess, two thousand Levin was the memory one. So that's been awhile yeah, also sprinkle in a little photographic memory, maybe that was just watching church, came cheers like you. I know, hey Jerry. How are you get your eye? He could answer so Chuck yet have you ever been wrongfully convicted of a crime basin eyewitness testimony not convicted by have been indicted on it. Crime that indicted are. You have been accused of a crime I've been accused.

Crimes he really big issue dish about there. You know crimes against humanity. Ok, Many take all that. As you know, you never have that's great, but it turns out. There are plenty of peace hundred so far in the U S alone, who have been found I've been wrongfully convicted of crimes, big crimes. I mean crimes that have put them on death row based on eyewitness testimony and in the last few decades it's become really apparent that eyewitness testimony is is really got great, Emily! for a long time, but thanks to dna evidence coming along, we can now go back and say yeah. This is this person was, is innocent? actually yeah you wanna hear something a little story. Yes, please so

the we worked with a locations person actually to people's it's a couple on some of the stuff. You should know stuff back in the day running some shorts, sure, remember them and in locations and among us either names breathing to protect them. They were writing their bikes and were hidden run. Last week oh and she's fine now, but she was in the hospital. Was it was not great and they have. Following this on social media, they have video from you know, like everyone, has cameras now businesses and homes and stuff they have video of the incident they have. The the cars license. Plate is clear as day the car as clear as day. The police have all the stuff and the police are like nothing. We can do about it unless you have an eye witness that can like say who the driver was. What The same thing that happened to me Amino Abe when you know until that story back in one of our shows when I

hidden run, and I Didn't identified this young woman in a line up car, oh yeah, like sorry, she said she didn't do it like. That's all you gotta do. Is they didn't? Do it, but same thing is happening to them. They have even believe the clarity of the figures that show the scar hitting and leaving end there like nothing. We can do about it, man. That is crazy. So that's like pretty good example of the law being slow to catch up to the current state of I guess the world based equally Urien they're they're, not in their work. In the case, they're trying to find out who did it, but they can't simply go to the persons House who owns that car, unlike rest somebody. I guess it in a way, though, that I mean it sounds stupid in in dumb, but at the same time it is kind of reassuring, especially with the rise of deep fakes, which we ve talked about. Two you can't just fabricated a video especially commit

one be like go arrest, this person, I guess I might though, is like go bring. The person who wants the car- and you will probably very equally find out who was driving it sure if it wasn't them yeah in a few are really yeah generous with the rubber oh, you know what I and the delousing I met more of the M, the beating with the rubber NL unknown to me. Ok, you to get a different direct. I'll just round first blood, what they d Louse Rambo deal stem and then hit him with the the fire hose okay, but all this to say I witnessed testimony like is what is needed in many cases to to prove Gill.

But it s so unreliable right. It's like a joke. Almost it's! What's the gold standard in the american justice system and I would suspect just about every justice system that if somebody comes into a court in points it them at the suspect or the the defendant and says I saw them, kill that person. I saw them hit that couple with there and drive off. I saw them other people who make up juries will be like wow How are you can argue with that? You can't this person swearing under oath, that they saw them. Do it they don't try me as a liar. They don't seem to have anything to gain from lying about this, so I'm gonna go him believe those this person and convict, but like we were, we ve, can have been toying with the little bit in saying liked. I witnessed some testimony is in great. You, dont have to have some sort of vested interests in sending someone to prison, you don't have to be outright

lying to. Basically, send someone to jail whose actually innocent based on your own testimony and why doing this, while your testifying court, you might actually fully believe what you're saying, even though what you're saying is fabricated, and actually you oh, really recognize the person that you're saying you saw commit this crime. And a jury is way more likely to convict if you're, like soup super sure, and you like, oh no, that was the purse I am one hundred percent positive but as we will learn as we impact this topic that that confidence in court, is not there from beginning necessarily yeah it's true, but if you think that confidence sells it, if you have a cocky witness, the bill did kill the defendant on this. Not too like? Are you one hundred percent sure, and they go word? I just say

where exactly the kind of witness will send you to the electric chair or the lethal injection needle every day that we there called do I stutter witnesses Let's get into get into this been dancing around a quite a bit. It's been a beautiful dance, but let's get into an ok yeah. I guess this night. In fifty nine papers. Kenneth says it all physiologist. I'm sorry psychologist an attorney name, Robert Red Mount said it has been suggested that the presumption is probably Warren to the effect that a random person given accurate original perception. Well in the ordinary course of events reflect a memory competent deserve most of the purposes for which it is demanded, which sort of a long way of saying air memories good enough right yeah, basically that the average person walking around can serve as a reliable eye witness to a crime, basically in

what what this nineteen, fifty nine brief is basically saying, is like this is this: is the state of affairs in the american justice system that, if you say you saw something- and you say you're, pretty sure that what you saw, what you're saying or what you think he saw as accurate the court, Some can rely on you enough to convict somebody yeah, but almost to the pirates Ike I'll just get on the same page here and agree that we'll just leave someone when they say they're, they're really sure I mean it smacks of that too. For sure it definitely does that. I'd like I guess the guy was just trying to shore up any opposition to it, and I mean that was one thousand nine hundred and fifty nine by long before that there were, thanks in the armor of eyewitness. Testimony into town

reliable? It was so I mean people have been using eyewitness testimony fur basically ever sharing it. It's probably all this type of testimony or that there is in any kind of court proceedings or anything like that, but starting in the early twentieth century it as psychology developed. One of the first things that psychology took on was the reliability of memory, and I witnessed testimony, and one of the first people to take it on was the psychologist named Hugo moods Sternberg. It get the womb loud erect thanks man myself, he wrote a book called on. The witness stand in nineteen o eight, and he was he's known still today is the father of Applied psychology.

He was a psychologist to said, hey you, so psychology can help you in your day to day life, especially for day to day life. Is that you're being convicted of a crime based on eyewitness testimony and Adam. He basically showed through a lot of experiments in exercises when he was alive sure at Harvard that memory was definitely not essentially just like a film stripper videotape or for today's kids in MP for a file. You know that that we we d just sit there and record the events going on around us in the world at all times and can go back and replace events in our lives in its an accurate rendering of what we experience. That's just not the case, Oh yeah, this is with with students where they knew They were doing memory test in quizzes, and they knew that they were there to do that and had to focus on the stuff in

they really need to concentrate and remember what I'm about to show. You yeah maybe have a sandwich beforehand yet, and there were still inaccurate and really demonstrated what we are we now know is the fact that human memories very fallible like forget about just how down the street, you got a million things on your mind. You right in the middle of texting. Someone in look up- and you see a crime happen like that has after reading the stuff seems like very little probability of you getting that stuff right right, Yes, I saw somewhere that smartphones in general are they're good. That you know they can help cut, sure videos Reimer photo of a crime, but at the same time, they really make a lot of witnesses unreliable, because everyone is so distracted by their smartphones that they dont really see. What's going on or don't you know they pay might have otherwise been a really good witness, but they were kind of glued to their phone. At the time I mean you can that's true

that even the industrial everything when it comes to smartphones. Yes, I was in paying attention again the phone or the people it. You know that complain about concerts again for a moment. The go ahead people that videotaped entire songs are usually looking at it through their phone and that's the worst possible way to experience alive musical moment really is especially, When you consider that they will probably never go back and watch that that video for in a just and my buddy yeah my tall british friend, he he yells from I am speaking here on the video you never gonna watch it

as loud is again, which is all right. He had probably right like eighty percent of the time, I would say yes, but I would like to see the next day where some of those people watch it and they here, just in the background secured ever gonna much, thereby like what is echoed talking about always like Garret that person watching his like. I showed that guy or so you go Munster, Burgee wrote this thing on the witness stand, basically saying we should not just you know, take everyone's were for it when an eye witness comes forward in criminal proceedings like there's problems with memory and I've just demonstrated it, but his writings were law thirdly overlooked, because during World WAR one he was from Germany, but he became a german american He wandered around vocally. Supporting, many during the first World WAR, which is not something you want to do back then now son, a way to get it book out there now so he was. He was basically just ignore,

for many many years, even though he was one of the first psychologist to take up this mantle and it and until about the mid seventies that psychology again took this up and there were to say just in particular, gaining robber buck out who basically was was the first to be like men. It is not a videotape- is one way to put his research, and then another psychologists, a very famous psychologist, named Elizabeth Loftus in though later he's a few years after buck out was right. Really the one whose work kind of captured the popular imagination, It made us all realise that we're just total frauds when were you calling a memory we. And with the advent of dna evidence and when you know our took was a building of cases being overturned because of dna evidence where I witnessed testimony? That was one hundred percent positive rights directly. Returned you get enough of those mounting up and then

the said, the United States as a problem on their hands, and I have to say well, Maybe we really need to look into this whole about memory, and I witnessed testimony not being super reliable right. Let's take the next thirty here's the morbid over basically picture yeah. That was that the innocents project, in particular, have been people working to exonerate people based on faulty evidence which really got a kid punch in the arm or shot in the arm after DNA evidence that you're saying, but the innocents project in particular was started and ninety ninety two and they ve got like I think three hundred and sixty five exoneration under their belt wonder each day of the year, They they do it. On the on the daily we did a year. We did a shown that do so. Yeah your member or with our world is close again. We talked of policies on his right, so I can tell by that site

I think you're ready for a message break you wanna, take one yams gonna have Google some some policies on the train. Remember who she was here. It we'll be back right up to this miles. It's me, Jack Moraine here you right next year by next to me, just like a work hey, One day I join with you to tell people too tune in to a very special episode special year of tedious.

Yeah. I guess this is actually look. I know you saw the social media Zaza the Ellie Otto. She said what are these two jogger Nazi podcasting doing there when Mazda cause me ever they say miles. We know that you're a loyal, Mazda owner. We want to align with you because you get it yeah. You know what I am willing to answer the call and help Ding Ding help people understand the power of it. So what we did is we actually got to record of special episode inside the new Mazda six. Thirty where we talked about kind of like flow states and was feeling alive and how we feel alive. What makes us feel like it was really doped actually record inside the car. I got to press a lot of buttons and make them mad, because you like, please don't fumble around in here. Set out in it out. I like to explore. Nonetheless, if you actually want to check out the first ever see Ex thirty check it out among the USA, dot com, slash, I heart or, if you're trying to check it up, I already them pull up to the local dealership today,

All right so should we ve been talking about a smack about the human memory, both back it up with some some facts and figures and stuff, ok, yeah, I mean they're, been like you said past thirty years is when the United States started doing. I do said United doing more more studies on on the human memory and how accurate it is, and- it is really expose the flaws and biases. And it's really not even I mean memory, but it's also perception right, what we perceive is going on and There are a lot of like we don't agree on what percent even means and there are a lot of different theories about how visual perception works. Yet, there's like a twofold issue with memory

is the formation of memory and then there's the recall right. So what the formation of memory it's like it, we can agree on what constitutes reality it makes it really tough to perceive reality and like a standard uniform objective way, but you can have a warm wrong memory. That's like that. We won cold in their tracks right exactly and there's the this is. There are basically two ways of looking at. How we perceive react duty and it is either, reality exists in some way that we don't perceive- and we kind of paint this picture that we think of ass reality, but has not actually really reality or Reality is reality, but we just kind of perceive it a piecemeal in in order to save energy, save time safe storage space, what

storage space whatever, but the upshot of both of these and other. I really want to do it and entire episode on the nature of reality, someday, ok, sure. But the upshot of these theories on what reality is and how we perceive them is that what we need from the environment from whatever scene or observing whatever, and then we can fill in the blanks to create this complete picture and in doing so, if if we're just kind of walking through a meadow or something like that, enjoying the day that doesn't really matter right. We can kind of recall what the butterfly that flew by looked like what its colours were with the trees looked like, but if we really dig in do we actually look at the trees, that kind of provided the backdrop of the scene or is it just kind of

conception of what trees in general look like in that situation, that our minds filled in and when people started like thinking about stuff, not just psychologist, but neurologists philosophers always of a lot of different people. Trying to figure out. You know how we go through the In reality, and in perceived the world, it became really apparent there. We do a lot of short hand, construction as workin moving through life and we were, Looking through a meadow, not that important when we're convicting it. Person of robbery and murder. Then it does become imports name. It is an issue that we just kind of fill in the blanks to create a whole picture. That didn't necessarily happen

yeah that I don't know if anyone listening has ever seen the hollow mask illusion that has to do with a short theory, basically that our perceptions are based on perceptual hypotheses so like that's us making his educated, guess, educated, educated guesses, about the sensory information that are eyeballs and our your holes, and we should point out that I witnessed testimony can mean audio like oh yeah, you overheard as well I don't know how well other senses of performed in court. I was thinking about that. Like I guess you know, did you smell it can goals smell or something like that would be one, but I mean I don't know what else you would like to do. Did you feel the murders touch? Taste you like the guy who is robbing the gas station? But if you look at the that, the greatest people of to theory in that perceptual hypotheses is the hollow mass

the online there's one m very as one of our nine Stein and its basically When will show you what looks like? a mask of outward Einstein space and then they start to turn it around and about halfway through you realize that you were looking at the inside of that mask and not the outside of that mask, and it's painted, of course, but it's still a concave, so it shouldn't look convicts, but yet it does in its line trick, and it's really freaky. It is, but it also just kind of goes to show that our brains leap to conclusions sickly, yeah. Absolutely another thing is that the whole darwinian approach is based if you're in a day, their situation. Your brain is gonna, be They decide what is most important to pay attention to in that scene and that that wall of

worse, skew reality depending on what's goin on plus also so so so that's point why our brains, villain blanks, probably more than we realise that- create our idea of reality in memory right. Yes, it is even when we are actually actively taking in information the the just. How good say like our eyes, it is her hearing is early. Gliding is on a street dirt. Exactly and that's one thing that that defence attorneys in particular, will I will try to attack is urgent. Like that. Like you know, do you wear glasses or contacts? Have you ever had lay sick? was it raining out, was at night time. You know how far away where you that's very night was under repair. We have records exactly in the whole crew,

Gus here. Mr big moment, impaired Mason shoots, Duck Harry Mason, farts and court. I didn't say that I said he cheated. It was his his thing. They have at least at first in the early episodes in the producers were like just didn't: go anywhere we're going to drop. This is his thing, your honor. I object for those from episode theories so they're. There has to be a standard here, though, when it comes to court and like how people see. I mean it can't be emulated, case a case in that every cases its own unique thing in court. But there has to be some sort of standard as far as like how well somebody with twenty twenty vision, see, for instance- and there's a guy named Jeffrey Loftus Arrest,

you're from a belief- is that you dub yet you dumb and he kind of developed this formula on twenty vision over distance, which basically says it ten feet. You might not be able to see eyelashes on a person's face right to two hundred feet. You may not be able to see eyes and in five hundred feet you could see a person's head, but it's just a big blur so like this could be. And is this these standard that they use in court, I think he's trying to to make it standard and I'm sure he gets called on as a professional witnesses and says all this, but I dont believe it's it's an actual like it's been judged to be like these, and like them without a chart and court now, but I think, if you really want to get the point across, you could do worse than hiring Jaffrey, Loftus yeah- and I imagine, don't they also do do they test these people

I don't know, I think if you have a really good defence attorney, you could probably ask that or witness if go to not optometrist at least have their their optometrist records subpoenaed. Or in the dramatic tv or film version. See the your honor. If I may step to the rear of the court room and you do that move And then you know you hold up two fingers and you say how many fingers on my holding up and would in the Mr Brady perhaps, as a briefcase and the guy with the neck brace on turned his head? What a chump that guy was has not committed. No, I that's so great that you said that because, there was between that their Perry, Mason joke. For me, if I was gonna sweeping ok, I don't know much bearing Mason. Did he fart in court It is telling me that up. Ok, I don't know anything about me. There is no remember our shared

are no way and use Ironsides or was it he was both body, but I mean There is ever somebody that looked like you, ve farting court, its remember he hit out, even I put together Shaven remember from Perry Mason, yet he does legacy that the little sir cake Non chuck. There is also the problem that researchers and on that we humans have a finite amount of attention, the right and if there's a bunch of stuff going on at once, or we have to pay attention to multiple things in quick succession. It's been found that there are a lot of problems with that near that that we don't really do real well with fast pace, stuff common address, especially when we're stressed out or in a high stress situation. Yeah it's like the stuff is really need. There's something called attention, all blink, not intentional intentional, and that's when when you're just looking around at things,

anywhere you are. It feels, like one fluid thing where you're taking in everything, but that's not real, happening? When you, you know, I'm looking at this coffee cup look up at your face? There's something attention blink, which is a little blip less than a second. Where There is- and I guess just in eruption in input the eye, your attention, yet are you you're shifting from one thing to the other- and it's not a fluid motion- is kind of like a hiccup. But you don't notice this. No, you don't a blend seamlessly, because your brain is filling in these gaps, but during that period if something really vital happened in that say, half of a second span you might notice it, and as we have already seen, that our brains tend to fill in information to create a smooth picture of reality that could be problematic for the person who you're saying you saw do something I didn't see. That's right. The others

about attention a blink too, is that it really kind of points out that a firm, We are really focused on one thing. We might miss another that our attention is is very selective like a smartly. Basically, yet yeah! You know if you're like into your smartphone you're, not paying attention stuff going on around you, the even if like you're driving like it driven up nice somebody in their driving, like thirty, in our under the speed limit which supposedly a safe, but they're on their phone, Adam in, like flip a moth, unlike the rocket a rock at their windshield, that kind of thing They don't even look up. There are major there now they have no idea, that's kind of the same thing but there's this really amazing video there I hadn't heard of, but these two magicians. I know Jared and John who I hope, are working on a podcast about this kind of stuff.

Pointed it out. Did you go see that video that was linked in this article, which one the one was created a ninety. Ninety nine by Daniel Simmons in Christopher, should breasts or share. Were it's the ball passed? video earlier? Ok, so I Wanna, give anything else out about there is only everybody just go. Look up. One thousand. Nine hundred and ninety nine Daniel Simmons Ball passing video and prepare to be amazed, but it really drives home like what the the just, how focused we can become at the expense of other information. That's right what else chuck well, there's something called the psychological refractory period with a pr p. That's when, if two things, if two cognitive tasks- and this can include you know you seeing things they I've really closely together? There is a bit of a mess,

time between when we process these two things at first thing, and then that second thing. So if these things are coming succession, ever they are very intense or there are a lot of different stimuli there. Is a little bottleneck, processing bottleneck that can occur again actually in a like up a scary experience like if someone sticks a gun in your face or something right- that the Euro, the big example you always here is like what was the weapon. Was it a gun or a knife, and it's been can on time again. If Europe, if you are, is someone comes and sticks a gun in your face. You are gonna. Have Europe on the gun and more so than the face, you might not be able to recall what your perpetrator look like you may have more information about the gun, which is a little helpful, but not as much as their face. Yet you know, I think,

told you before their time that you may get mugged. She was not focused on done and did not know that the guy had had a gun on her and her friends when she was asked if there was a gun at the cop station she's like I actually don't know like she didn't process the gun bright and her friends were like. Yet there was a gun. The guy had a gun, which is I hadn't relay get that you know not processing something because of a stressful situation. But it's it's funny that the opposite, apparently of how it usually is here, and I think you can sort of in yourself I mean. Hopefully, this kind of thing doesn't happen over and over again and to you me or anyone else, but like I've, sort of told myself like if anything ever happens, trying keep wits about you and taken as much detail as you can and unlike

repeated in your brain over and over that sis, good advice for like daily living, sure, that's mindfulness, I think yeah, that's good eyes. I told you before figures, the police lineups, when the she was able to pick the guy on the line up. So maybe she was focused on the guy's face in my house missing the gone rather than the opposite exactly she was at a finger in your pocket right turn said the second so I'm not going to I'm just going to leave it up to listen to yes, dirty dirty listeners minds, so I there is also another one, but for forming memories that has conduct confounded researchers for awhile and it's called the own race bias or cross race effect. Yet we talked about this and police lineup I feel like we did. Birthing is worth going over one more time, so it basically is it said. There. If you are a witness, an you witness, a crime that debts carried out by buddy from another race or ethnic

group other than yours you're going to a harder time recognising that person. Then you if they were a member of your own race or ethnic group, and so that the egg seems easy. Pc was that you're, just a racist in every everybody of another race looks alike to you. That's not the case. They found that people who school low on questionnaires about being prejudiced also are subject to the Cross race effect and that it it's across the board for everybody of any race they're all equally subjected their equally. What's the word victims of it, I guess mistaken yeah miss it's in there somewhere misidentified now other equally susceptible. The shuddering, although we got there, but we got there Chuck yet ass. True, naturally interesting like you could you could test out is the least prejudice person on the planet

Dil misidentify someone from another race yeah, they think that different races have different, defining characteristics and that you, as a child, terribly well into adulthood our kind of trained to pick out the identifying characteristics of people of your own race, which doesn't necessarily plied peep other races, Jews, people really are bad at distinguishing differ members of different races, not because their racist and everybody looks like, but because they're looking for the wrong cues distinguishing queues, yeah and you know. Sometimes people can look like other people, sure it's in the famous case, a sexual, and go ahead and pick one out of their oh yeah. The joint very few this case- Ronald Cotton, in nineteen. Eighty four he was identified as the perpetrator of rape since to life in prison, and I went back- and I looked at them-

person, who eventually was found out to be the the he was exonerated cotton was that. The real guy Bobby Pool that saw side by side images. These guys look a lot alike. They look a lot o. I like their noses, are different, but if you block out there knows there let the lower half of their face in their eyes, and forehead are really really similar, and I think that's just a case really bad luck, it was really bad luck, ill ultimate the panel to be really good luck, but I mean, though the the victim. The eyewitness was the victim. A woman named Jennifer Thompson near an during the rape she did was she took your advice and like kept her wits about as much as possible and took the opportunity to study the guy's face here: but because pool and cotton looked so much alike seek. There was there was. It was a case second identity of a witness who actually will see was kind of unsure

first became more more confident with right problem, budge, wink and was exonerated Jennifer Thompson in Ronald cotton went on to write a book about the whole thing together had their friends, they got to be friends. Could she experienced a tremendous amount of guilt? I find this man and in him serving time for some he didn't do and yet I wrote a put together, which is now I was like a man. It's coming, that's gonna be a movie soon. As of right a couple of months ago, it was it was option. I reaffirm nice called at the books, called picking cotton the Uno, picking, cotton, colon, our memoir of injustice and redemption semi colon, So yeah that that the good luck he had, those that Bobby Pool Emerald cotton, cotton on the jail together and they were frequently mistaken for one another as how much

really looks a here and I guess Bobby Pool blab to another and made that he was the one who had really rape Jennifer Thomson in that cotton was in their wrongfully word, got around and then. Finally, thanks to dna evidence, Runnel cotton was was excluded from the crime yeah. I sending that story Is that the only one in the list that does have a nice ending with a true? So here's other thing with eyewitness testimony, or should we take a break through you per unrealistic, a break and I'll tell you about that. Other thing right for this

hi, it's the heard this just in its officially fall, and that means a lot of things to a lot of people. The leaves are changing, collars time to break out the pumpkins break out the put boy, most importantly, break out the truly hard seltzer truly has only one hundred calories, but has five percent a dvd and only one gram of sugar per container if the can't miss drink at a season so pick up truly hard seltzer. Today, truly drink. What you truly want. So here's the other thing about. I witnessed testimony is that, like you have to do

it's a bunch of times. It's not like you identify someone in a police line up and then you're in court the next day right. You are by someone in a line up and then you're gonna get grilled bike. After that and then you're gonna get taught to buy your attorney before and you're gonna, be recalling this in describing the scene, and this do you think the perpetrator, a lot at times and every time this happens things can go wrong with your recall. Basically, yes, I mean like with total, so many times, but every time you recall a memory, you adding to it you're in beer, adding more information to it right and that information can be incorrect or flawed, and if we if our brains, kind of strive to create is complete a picture as possible?

the memory originally is incomplete, the more we recall it, the more we're going to it out to create this. This this picture and since part of the process like you're, saying of going through the no justice system as an eye witnesses to recall, over and over and over again by definition, that process leads contaminated evidence. In this case, they ever of an eye testimony yeah you know not to mention when cops get in there and they asked leading questions a lot of times and even this one again was really great, even swapping out one word more, that. You might not think matters if, if you hear the questions you see the broken headlight as opposed to did you see April in this light that takes on whole different, meaning because in that first one the cop is basically San there was a broken headlight, and did you see it not? Was there one yup, that's called the misinformation

fact, and it can be as innocuous is that it can be purposeful, like if a cop believes that the suspect is the one cops have been known to ask leading shouldn't and when you have an eye witness kind of colonel so so on something after leaving questions in their answering. They can become more more confident in the in there their memory, the recall of the event and that, coupled with the fact that well, this is the right person, obviously, because the cops wouldn't be prosecuting arresting somebody. If it wasn't the right person debts is gives whole thing, even more confidence and studies have found over time the more confidence the longer and more often memories recalled the more confidence grows associated with it and the less accurate. It may be right right. So there's this there's like

a negative correlation air over time between confidence and accuracy. A of a memory over time. That's a big distinction that will get into later, but the longer goes on to say, like from the time of crime, occurs to the time the court date comes. Trials starts. You could be a year in the eye. Witness might have had to recall this for half a dozen people at least not to me in all the friends and family that you ve shared the story with, and so what a lot of people say is by the time may be the second third floor time. You're. Recalling this, you know calling your original memory any longer you're recalling the story that was helped to be fabricated by the cops and the prosecutors and in some part by yourself. Just from telling this Europe telling the story, you not recalling the actual memory and that's a real problem, because that's how people get

wrongly convicted by eyewitnesses who go into court and say I'm a hundred percent certain that that was the person that I saw comment that car yeah, the thing I mean, if you just think about in your own lives, not I mean forget crimes and forget courtrooms like to think about lorries that you like great stories from your life, that you ve told a bunch of different times about this one time when like these, but so burned in your brain as these great stories that, like I'm always curious, like I wish I had video of these stories as they happened. Is it and if you go back and see this funny story about when I my friend and I got shaken down by the Texas Highway patrol like tells us? we all the time they lines. I wonder what really happened that data right.

By the end of this store by the time the stories told it's like I'm Chuck, Norris himself would walk a Texas Rangers. They remember the search or or my go story in Athens like to me. I tell that story, exactly as it happened, but who knows well, yeah, it's kind of like you're playing, a game of telephone with yourself over time like stuff. Just gets kind of muddled in again. Normally this doesn't matter. You know, unless you happen to be telling a bit of a fish tail, the somebody you can't stand fish tales and and calls you out on it doesn't really matter right, like it does matter in a court of law and the fact that the courts have continued. To pretend like this. Susan, an actual implication of the human memory. The human memory is actually infallible and just can you down with eyewitness. Testimonies has been a problem in the past, I'm not sure if we ve gotten that, cross or not, and consider this Do that juries? And may we talked about that confidence

and over time by the time you get that jury, and you are super competent, that's gonna. The huge impact juries are gonna, be far more influence a confident witness than someone's like hey, I'm pretty sure, but you If, I'm really being honest, is among the witness stand, I can be a hundred per cent you're, yet It is a rare I witnessed from what I can tell that that by the time that I'll comes along, they have been so prepped and and guided her hand have become so confident that, from what I can tell it would be really rare to hear an eyewitness be like I'm, not so sure. Maybe they probably wouldn't make it to the witness stand, because the prosecutor doesn't want somebody like that on the stand. So what you a hearing corridors- yes, I'm absolutely sure- and you know juries or just normal people they're not doing the research on, you know that the possible

I'll ability or the possible fallibility of eyewitness testimony. So it's up to the the defence attorneys to kind of poles in this stuff and we will, but for a long time. This is really surprising to me. I had no idea wouldn't allow expert testimony that that basically taught jurors how many problems there are with human memory and that I witnessed testimony is not all its cracked up to be, and that Not only should you not be wowed by the confidence of somebody who comes into Port a year after the crime is, as I'm a hundred percent certain, you should probably discount that that testimony all another year and the reason that they were allowed is that they claim that was common sense. Like everybody knows that our raise aren't great and eyewitness testimony probably isn't great, whereas

seems to me obvious that you would want to get an extra in their to at least explain the stuff, especially in like a capital case yet You can still make up your mind, but at least know. The facts science behind eyewitness identification. So you can take that it considered consideration is adjure right. That's just not the case there was but then apparently they started I'm turning overturning convictions, because the expert witness on eyewitness testimony was disallow. Right and once that started happening, they started allowing them in the actual trials, but that's kind of like. If you have, defence turning you're, your you know, being tried for a really important crime that you could get some serious time for? Do you want that attorney? to bring in an eye witness an expert witness on eyewitness, testimony for sure yeah, the Supreme Court themselves,

nineteen, seventy seven rules, the two that I witness testimony is constitutional does not violate the fourteenth amendment, even if its suggestive, but they said it was subject to five factors. That just depends it's a case by case thing, but the witnesses degree of attention, so you have to determine that the opportunity of the witness to view the criminal at the time of the crime right? So I guess we physically were you able to see this happen right or or smell, or here or lick the criminal, the accuracy of the prior description of the criminal, that's a big one than that still holds up today. Here give You told the cops initially that the guy had a moustache and right never mustache year, here about that from the defence third area during the trial, then we'll get into that later on, but that that you know that sort of virgin

description that the right word his I love, it is the one that really should sure I and then what were the last to factors of the five the level of certainty demonstrated at the confrontation and by confrontation. They mean that it's the thing that you always see, unlike courtroom dramas worth the witness they say you know did: do you see the perpetrator here today in the witnesses. Yes, that man there and then they say let the record show that the deaf, the witnesses, pointing at the defend then, in Perry, Mason farts, that's the that's the particular one that under pack today, because they're saying like how certain does that witness seem when they they confront the defendant in court right and then the last one is the timing, the crime and the line up, like you know, was it's what, if

witness the crime and in the cops don't catch. The person for you know three months is that long ere like does the witness, become unusable at that point and those five those visit the test for constitutionality of an eye witnesses. Testimony yeah, I think, does your five pre. These factors to consider Yegg suffer the one, the one about the certainty demonstrated at Camp Conference and that's the big battle to because some people like look man. If human memory is that fallible, maybe we should just get rid of eyewitness testimony altogether. Right, but now that, I think, is the approach like hey. Why don't we just treat it like anything that can be contaminated from ah from like physical evidence like what are we treat dislike physical evidence and say you know it was that again that virgin identification is the one that counts in everything after that is tainted. Yeah ensue

everybody on this. There is a very kind of a battle over just how much confidence relates to Accuracy in memory gathered. The crux right, but both sides say everything after that: first recall whether its telling the cop on the scene of the crime what you saw or whether it's the lineup wherever it is. The first memory test is what it's called the first time you do that. That is the only evidence that should be admissible, and everybody can talk about that. Evidently, you can come to court indescribable evidence, but every their time. You recall it after that. It should be considered contaminated evidence just as much as you would consider somebody dropping

blight on a blood sample as contaminated over smearing. A fingerprint is contaminated same thing. That's the big! The big crux everybody says, disregard everything after that, where they disagree, though Chuck is just how much during that first that first stir memory test how much confidence is correlated. Accuracy right in some people say it's very highly correlated like one guy said that in I think, fifteen different experiments. They found that the their accuracy was ninety one percent. Ninety seven, percent, accurate confidence indicated and ninety seven percent accuracy and other people are like that's flim flame, don't listen to that guy, but that's the best, what's going on right now, but everybody agrees the whole court room. That's the man right there that

shouldn't hold any water whatsoever. The problem is that holds the most water, because that's what is done in front of a jury vision, beings, you know someone might carry that kind of confidence in every area of their life. Whereas someone else might be very unsure about everything in their life and that wouldn't be for them to be like you know, someone who's, not very confident We can have a hard time being supercontinent about something this important shoe. You know, but you also could imagine that that person would maybe more easily coach than then somebody who does have a lot of self confidence catch him up and that the phrase the throat it says, the t shirt say coach him up, so you wanna go over any of these other ones. I guess we can mean this is all sort of innocence. Project stuff. I mean there certainly been plenty. Examples over the years. I think of the

hundred and well, how many you said, there's three. Fifty two now three sixty five that I three sixty five conventions at this time was to say it was three forty nine, that they had overturned. Seventy percent of them were based on, the testimony of an eye witness- and this is just death row like forget, muggings yeah, the the I dont know, if it's all just a throw or not, but that's did some of these two were not just single witnesses, multiple eyewitnesses, which, if there's one thing they basically says there, was a copper prosecutor who coached everybody to basically share the same story. That's it's a overturned conviction with multiple eyewitnesses. Their dna evidence shows were all incorrect. Yet this one right here is: especially maddening, Jerome White Knight in. Seventy nine was convicted of rape and robbery, and He was exonerated twelve years later, but the

your guy who did the crime was in the actual same line up. Where are we was identified yeah so that one's especially tough pill to swallow, the one that gives me Don t- remember: Troy Davis area they back into those in eleven Georgia executed choice, it is for the murder of a cop mark MC fail, generate yeah, don't Savannah here, and there was no physical evidence and no weapon, nothing tied, Troy Davis. Crime, except for nine eyewitnesses, seven of which recanted their testimony, and there was a big deal because a lot of people are like did look Georgia is going to execute an innocent man. We need to get this commuted to a life sentence, so we can to figure this out and there is a bit in that one around. I remember signing it. There are six hundred and sixty thousand signatures on this petition and it's still didn't get his sentence commuted in Georgia.

Executed what was almost certainly innocent man for the murder of Mark MC fail. Anna was tough, it also means that the murderer of Mark MC fail is still out there somewhere yeah. I think it's not mentioned enough in these cases like it's? Obviously we should think about the victim, your end of it. The second victim, which is a person, falsely accused and then there is also a murderer out there. Maybe there was a Another episode I wanna do is: is you know times when the the Almost certainly innocent people were executed. Ok they'll be a fanatic title for the way he did. You get it put the arm and there too Well, that's it for I witnessed testimony unless you have something else I got up and out the checks. There's nothing else. I got nothing so that means everybody it's time for a listener. Mail is very sweetie now

Hey guys and fathers day in two thousand fifteen or Sun Aaron died from cancer at the age of forty I wanted last wishes was where his beloved australian shepherd dog Skull. To live on a family farm with some wonderful friends. He knew from Pennsylvania Scholars with was with us and sudden California the time. So I began looking options to centre to get his work is only true way to say, good bye and carry out Aaron's wish. I announced that the family I was taking her back I announced that the family I was taking her back in our daughter, come home to be by side, while he was in hospice quickly said she wanted to come with me. Without any further delay. The three of us took off across the country. After a few listen to the radio. Our daughter brandy said you analyse innocent podcast. Sure was my response. What's a podcast, does you plug dinner phone started, absurd of stuff you should now and from that moment on for the next four days, we listen to an endless stream of your guys. I wonder, you for helping us cope with the pain and heartache, we were dealing with

Your banter and fun were very thorough, because my daughter and I travelled across country with our thoughts and Scully being with my daughter and sharing all this time together with you by our sides, was one of the best experiences of life, given the circumstances, I now listen. He has often in my daughter, even bought me aid. Jerry quote blank t shirt given as a reminder of our time together, and that is from dug and Brandy Bell thanks a lot Dugan thanks a lot brandy. I like the cutter. Your jib for suggesting stuffy should now near terrible circumstance, but I am glad sculleries on that form in Pennsylvania. Thanks Doug, thank you brandy and on behalf of all of us. Our deepest condolences go there. We could have some small part in making it a little better for you absolutely if you want to get in touch with us. Like Doug? Did you can go onto sufficient or you calm and check out our social links? You can

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