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Can I see a way right off the bat year I presumed yours are either a couple of sea always I went to issue one not telling anyone had apparent their children. Indeed and two. We realise that the whole concept of free range parenting that will follow is comes from a place of x cream, privilege? Yes to be able to entertain the idea of free range? Parenting comes from place of extreme privilege. Ok I can't I'm men there. Should I wait until we talk about that part of the kind of amended now you can amended so so to me. Free range parenting having the freedom to free range parent is what I saw it ties in with parenting. That's all

being done by people who might not have a choice. Are you saying that the Thee, the the a lady to choose whether you want to free range parent or not is privileged? Yes, ok, yes agreed. I gotcha and in again we'll get into that? But what will get in at the end, but I just wanted to go ahead and we that off, because it's not a privilege involved with being able to say you know that Wanna free range parent. Are you going to? Are you going to land one way or another on it on whether or not I support free range parenting yeah yeah. I mean Emily Knighthood title it or say hey. I think we should do this as a style, but we as it turns out, are sort of dabbling in free range parenting a bit as much as you can for three and a half year old. So you're listening to your instincts.

No I've never had a parenting book, not knocking them, but I've. Never! at one, we parent by instinct and our daughter, has always had a lot of room to free play and explore. And figure stuff out our own in all down and get back up in an all, but all that stuff I am reading between the lines you guys I haven't decided yet are so ready for you. Ain't verging go Ok, so do you remember when we were kids job here? can we used to hang out with kids every would go right, bikes, other like gum sunrise had no idea where we're gonna go, but it might involve swamp, could involve a glacier there. They have been like rail writing. Hoboes. There we shared lunch with who knows what the day was bring, but we're up for all that it may or may not have engaged in any of that during that day,

The end of the day around sunset maybe a little later, depending on whether it was summer, not we ride or by its back home, say see you tomorrow, go to our respective houses and then talk the night away on our soup. Cancer were connected by a rope. That was our childhood right. We Turner lay sure I have talked about my childhood some growing up, but you know I grew up in the woods basically, unlike in couple acres of land, with a creek in forest, not in a subdivision on a street with like seven houses in the woods right in my Other had a we did, this I'd iron Bill Bell, probably about eighteen inches across the mounted on a big like telephone Paul ripe, setter, driveway, and she would at the You know what it was dinner time in the evening. She would go pull that bell and you

here it from like a mile away this, the Bell Tolling and that's when Scott Nigh like our it? Would you know it's time to go eat after having been out all day long with zero supervision, and I had a great mom like she wasn't neglectful crisis. Just how it was done where you latch key kid. I know your Mama's, a teacher. We did, she say a home with you, she didn't go back. Teaching she should quit teaching to raise kids and thence. It up again when I was like, I feel, like eighth ninth grade or something like that. Ok My mom took off until I was like six seven. I guess like kinda new. Maybe she surrounded can guide us. First grade when earlier, when I started school and she's like a camera, backed a nursing and then For that point I was the last he kid for like the rest of my life, but I had like all their sisters who would be arm around the time I would end, but I

Like my own key to my house, there was just a couple blocks away from my school. And I would walk myself around my bike myself: Be home by myself, if my sister is doing something else for it, hours until either my mama my dad showed up- and I think I turned out pretty well too that aid and had a husky ever while you guys palliative you doors. If your mom ring a bell on the telephone, pull the call you in for dinner, he who think we locked our door, ok but you were. You had free range litter of your your house, your yard, the woods around you, but Here's a really big caviar from what I've seen. I think a lot people who were alike, who do are familiar necessarily fringes, free range, parenting, assume that we could have done anything we wanted gotten away with it because we were, we had overly permissive parents. That's not that's, not me

case for me, and I would dare say that was in the case for you as well, that we actually had plenty of rules and structure we're just also given a lot of freedom to to do things within that rules and structure, including she graphic freedom right for sure, ok yeah. So that is what I thought all kids head up to this time, and I knew that There's like such things as piano and Mandarin lessons Mandarin classes. They, Canada, like things, kids were taking more more and they were really busy stressed out and they had like, like gum iphones at age, seven that kind of thing, but I still thought that this happened and I was really shocked about a shocked as I've ever been researching and episodes of you should know too fine that that is not the case. That not only does has this been kind of squeezed out by other activities. It's actually be Come criminalize behaviour by society large among the parents who are raising children today. I was

but loan away to find this out. I really legitimately didn't know. Yeah I mean in getting back to the activities. You not played some soccer and highest and I did like church sports, which there's no lotta. I may I think we did like maybe one basketball practice a week is so it wasn't like everyday practice and stuff like that. I never took lessons. Of any kind like a taught me Self Guitar and all that stuff. So, like I, I don't think I literally ever had a structured post school activity in my life yeah did you say: church sports yeah Church softball in basketball did, like everybody win every game, knows factually fiercely competitive just kidding. No, no, it was it was. It was legit like we had a pretty good basketball, even in the league, was pretty impressive, do yeah, but yeah. Never signed a never had a single class like the idea,

my mom having them. Alright going to take you to violent lesson and their on the weekends we have gymnastics and whatever else people are doing these days was just just. We didn't do that. You just like a play. Right so so there has been and we'll talk about all the reasons why? But there has been a movement away from the kind of child we had a very pronounced one. If you, if you look at you, know cultures and elements swinging one way or another. It is swung very far the opposite way too, where kids lives are structured down to the minute where they have actual calendars and schedules that they have keep up with because they have so many things going on and in their has, come about in reaction to that it antithesis basically- and it is nothing more than lighting kids grow up.

Way that you and I did it has become so, novel in the face of of the world the culture that we haven't, raising kids in the United States. Now then, has its own name, it's a movement. They have to go to court to defend themselves, it so weird, but really feel stupid and look at it. All there doing is raising their. It's the way you and I and Jerry, I'm sure- was raised- will you I mean to a certain degree, but the hall idea and it's not dislike. I want you to grow up, I did What it really is is an argument that says you know what kids will grow up healthier and happier if they have freedom to play and their freedom to fail and freedom to go in a playground scrap in to work it out with another kid on their own and figure things out for themselves. They will end up better people because of this. It's

Oh, I'm lazy, or I have nostalgia for my childhood it. It's an You know there's a lot of research into this now or some research that know. What we're doing is is trying to make a better future adults, by not hovering over my child scheduling them to death and every time they fall run over pick themselves up, unlike in Iraq, them to sleep, you know if they get a Bubu, so I sound so judging mean that well, it's let's take a second a cigar. Breakthrough, Quicken like like yourselves and then we'll come back and really get into what free range parenting us well now job in shock to charge stuff right-

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helicopter style parenting where you're always kind of around your kid there. Their entire life is very structured and supervise, including playtime, and that free range parenting is meant to be a reaction to that and in some ways it is a reaction that, but it all stands on its own and if you stepped back and look at it and look at free, rynch parenting, The reaction to helicopter parenting, but as its own thing is his own philosophy for how to raise a kid you strip away like the genus and stuff. It holds up to me and, like you said, there has been a lot of them a lot of lot more study recently. But the whole thing really started back. Ghana two thousand eight by journalists. There wasn't child psychologist. It was in a young child development psychologist who was in a child development child analyse psychologists, none of those things it may that less, when up, ok It was a journalist, namely nurse Skinner, Z,.

Yes, she is in New York mom and in two thousand eight she wrote a collar for the New York son called why I let my nine year old Ride the subway alone. She was in a store one day in Manhattan and her son had been badgering her to be able arrive, the subway and bus back home by himself. And finally, one day she said, are great: let's do this. Here's a subway map, there's a subway card. Here's twenty bucks, here's some change for a pay phone, have at it the kid made at home, she said he was quote ecstatic with independence or a great the air and, like she got a lot of blow back from this from length. The judgment both ways I mean there were people that said it was neglect and abuse for her to do this let her kid ride the subway alone. Oh, oh! Yes! Yes, if you

to divide the two sides up and start weighing which one was a little judge ear. You would definitely your hand will be much lower holding the helicopter parents, I've for sure yeah. If you're free range kid proponent or you raise your kids following that, there's a whole burden, all social burden that you have, in addition to the burden of raising your kids, that you have to put up with for sure yeah, and I should point out here A quick that it all depends on upon your kid too, and I think there are any sweeping general nations share my daughter has always been very just instinctively kind of safe and smart about stuff, yeah other kids in her class, are just like little wild ban cheese and I would pay really be a lot more worried if she was the kind of kid who has an instinct to like jump out of a tree instead of light back down very slowly out of a tree so right, it's all it's all

If it, depending on your kid, you know or a kid who, like can't, seem to shake being totally fastened with matches or knives, or something like that. I think this is a really good point like it's. You shouldn't sweeper generalised, but I think that's an even larger point. Two people should be left to raise their children, how they see fit given a certain amount of trust invested in the parents, that the parent is it going to harm. The kid or let harm come to the kid, because their parent right right, ok, so this whole thing started with Eleanor Askin Aisy, like you said she got a lot of blow back, but also got a really positive response to an exit actually parlay. The whole thing from that New York son article into a blog that she called free range kid. So from what I understand, she coined the term free range kids,

Thirty writing about this stuff, and at first, a lot of it was just like its debts. Good it's on its face is obvious that this is how you should raise a kid, kids need play, they need to learn how to pick themselves back up when they fall down. And not only that you're doing a disservice to your kid when you pick them up after they fall down. Because they're not learning how to get back up themselves and over time it kind of wine as people became more and more enamoured with her philosophy or this whole free range. Kids idea, more child sex, started weighing in and the whole movement kind of, took the shape and they figured out that for apparent to kind of see the light as the as far as these they were concerned, they had to first choice. In the mind said about what kind of world they were raising a kid in because of your free range. Kid parent, you probably don't, feel,

oh as threatened by the world in general as say a helicopter parent would come out for out here for sure I mean wit, when when parents have experimented with this, there. The changes that they seen in their kids have been pretty striking. If anecdotal, there's just one woman, Dana Bloomberg, she's a school councillor in suburban Chicago. We should also point out depends on where you live as well. If you live in a very safe suburb, her way out in the country, it's a little different than a kid like in the middle of the sea or something like that, but she gave her kid a lot of free range, starting in the second grade. And got some neighbourhood parents involved in letting their kids do it. They said before you know it: they had this little. You know little guy

of kids, can a around the neighbourhood on their own and she's. Getting all these texts from these different parents, I'm saying like what a big change has happened in their own kid, I one parent even said it was life changing for her daughter gave her a nuisance of confidence. And that sort of what the free range thing could look like, but like you're saying at all comes down to a swashing appearance. Fear. The biggest fear, which is my child, will get abducted or my child will get, though be sexual predator to target my child or Heaven forbid my child. What will get kidnapped and murdered right because a you can understand in its really tough too. Somebody who doesn't want their kid wandering around by themselves, because they are afraid that something

really bad is going to happen to their kid so kind of the first step to to adopting like a free range. Kid attitude. Is to adjusting how you see the world. Then they think they think that with this there are several things confused really fascinated me. I love cultural changes, especially when we can point to different things. Yes, Lee unrelated things that all kind of converge and change the world and ways you never think of. That seems to have happened to produce today's helicopter parents at least. Produce the level of of fear the climate of fear that the world is inherently dangerous, brutal sadistic place I hope that, where children have no call to be wandering around themselves, that that is actually, you can trace their back to a convergence of things that have happened.

Starting in like the late seventies and early eighties, and in particular there is some high profile, the child murder cases. Basically there What kind of it took place between nineteen? Seventy, nine ten eighty one and those really changed a lot of parents minds about things yeah in New York, the very sad story of a six year old, eaten pats, disappeared and was later found out to have been murdered. John walls, very famously his son Adam he when it does all the tv shows now think he's on the hunt on CNN and now here and really made this his life's work, but his son, disappeared and died in eighteen, eighty, one, obviously the when a child murders from Sir Nine eighty one and this all converged

on the same time like you're. Talking about this. These these strange things aligning cable news. Coming out. Cnn was launched a nineteen eighty. So the sudden you have parents that are getting this kind of constant flow of fear from the news about their children right because so, if, if Prior to cable news, twenty four hour news: if something happened, a sudden somewhere in some states, maybe a forwards is particularly egregious are outrageous or Everything was kind of set up in just the right way. It would capture the attention, the national media and you'd you're about it around the country, but that was really really rare, and then second too, that the other place there he would hear about child abductions, child urgent murders, horrific way, accidents that befell a child would be locally right like on your local news that maybe maybe expanded,

at region may be the state, but it was pretty abductions, and so, if statistically, thing like that happen fairly. Rarely you aren't gonna, hear very often, and so in your mind, it was a pretty your thing and you weren't afraid of the world in general, but what a lot of commentators and a lot of them, while some people I ran across fairly research, you is that with cable news that potential full of horrible things that befell kids to talk about expanded to the entire nation. That's a local notice, regional or even state. The whole nation set out all the things happening to all the kids around the nation was potential news. Fodder. So when you were watching CNN, it seemed like ever story was about a kid who had been abducted and killed or sexually assaulted, or well any number of horrible things

and there is really no way to put it other than that. That kind of stuff keeps people glued to their televisions, and so it's really in the best interests of news networks like see an end to feed people, because, while you're Gloody television you're also glued to the ads that they show too, and so from this model came a climate of fear. Then a lot of people. Point too is like this is the source and it's such a CNN Cnn gets pointed to because was the one that started at all. There was TED Turner who came up with this and started the first twenty four hour: cable news network, but all cable news. Is guilty of this and became guilty of a pretty quickly, because that's the model, cable news, and because cable news laid that foundation and showed like all you got that kind of you can run. Makes him revenue nightly news tried it's best to resist that guy

thing, but it kind of had to follow suit a little bit too. So we will become more sensational from the eighties onwards as well, not nearly anything like cable news, but compared to how it had been before it was much more sensationalist because it was following that cable news model in all that put together, created the foundations of why people are just scared to death about the world, because we we think It's way more dangerous than it actually is because the statistics are inflated by hearing about the stuff, all the time there's another couple of things that contributed that skin Asia's point, out, one we live in what she Dubbs and expert society so again, on cable news run social media like everywhere, you turn there's another expert, with a new book there trying to sell basically telling How you're doing it wrong is apparent how you should do it and then the whole, that we live in a very litigious society now. So what? If,

I want a free range parent, my kid and they go down in and get their friend out of the house and the writing bikes in one of em gets hurt. Like other parents going sue me because kid Winton in lure them into the main streets right. What the There is another thing to happen check in the seventies, the idea of negligence became really big and there is what's Catholic, a torch revolution to where you went from. Well, you know, your kid was your kid didn't know you that that is the other kids arm was gonna get broken, so you can't get sued for that too. No. There was negligent in we're going to allow the more more case law expanded to try to make people think like lawyers, because of it to give here kid, was. I mean that must have been a thing because did you ever have the the lawsuit threat from another that was such a thing like

yeah I need it. I need to kick your butt or whatever they go yeah with my dad's going to sue you for all the money you got. That's right he's a dentist and so funny did they get back in the seventies. Children threatening losses are quickly forgotten about their for, like ripping their shared or somethin number things kid could generate, allows you you, but in the end he says- and this is, I think, a pretty relevant quote. She said. Ah, the stuff combined has convinced parents that they have to be both omniscient an omnipotent because of fear and monitor every single move that your kid makes. So, let's take a break we're gonna, come back and talk a little bit about the the facts, whether or not your kids are really endanger out on the streets ready for this well now travel shock learn a thing

to from charge and chuck you I dont think America has ever gone back to the way that it will. Before nine eleven of the anthrax attacks, fear was really that there would be a second wave of attacks, and then along comes the DC steeper and all of the countries. Worst fears are realised. The gunman most likely a skilled marksmen fired six times in the course of sixteen hours. The police say they have never had a crime white like this. It is quite a mystery. It was scary to go to the grocery store, fill up your car with gas and then, as the DC sniper case, unfolded that terror only grew. She found out about this terror court in this message to police. I do believe he was

brainwash for lack of a better terms, be talked about extorting money from the: U S: government to go, create a utopian societies where he could bring his children and other young lost souls from hard radio and tender for tv, this monster Deasey Sniper the first two ever loads premier on January second subscribe today on the ice, hard radio, app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast are took so like we're tube to not be just scared to death. Because you're letting your kid to walk home from the park or something like that unsupervised view you will have to go

A change of mindset like you, have to stop seeing the world's very, very scary, place, and sometimes statistics can be actually kind of comforting, so the free range kids movement has really mean a made one of its foundational support. Poles, and you think I would actually beginning better at this all this attire advanced. What he's too humble through something anyway. They talk a lot about statistics in crime. Statistics related kids in particular, and when you look at them in the cold hard light of the day, the aid doesn't seem like is a very dangerous world. After all, right, if you look at the numbers, the national centre for missing and exploited children says that just one percent of the twenty seven thousand missing children cases are now

and family abductions- and that also includes, like friends and acquaintances, so if you're talking about literally a stranger target, in your child and plucking them off a playground. It is seating, Lee RARE that that happens, yeah and that so one percent is nine family right right, but that also doesn't even break down like if it's a friend of or in acquaintance right, it's or something like that, so yell strangers snatching your kid Rarely rarely rarely happens. Yes, so and even that, even including, like friends of the family, somebody who's not, erect firm, family member but known to the kid and non stranger. That's two hundred and seventy kids, that happened in two thousand seventeen out of twenty too when he seven thousand. I think which is that's awful for those kids, that they were kidnapped right. There's, that's that's another thing two's! When you throw it.

It's like this. It's really easy to see that was it You don't want to do that because it is to those two hundred. Seventy families that that's that's all that matters there's really important remembers. While we were kind of tossing out these statistics to yeah to make light of family abductions, witches you, no ninety one percent of abductions. Those are horrific, dramatic as well yeah we're just talking about the bare bones of, like the fear that if I let make it go to park, strangers gonna put them right. If so so big. So even that, even if you look at its twenty seven thousand out of all the kids in the United States into doesn't seventeen twenty seven. Thousand of them, were it went missing into doesn't seventeen and the vast majority of them ran away so If you're worried that your kid is going to get plucked by a stranger specifically out of the park somewhere because Let them go to the park with the free range parenting. People are saying. If you look at the statistics, the chances of that are sold

all. That is actually not worth limiting your kids freedom of movement because of that outlier possibility it just doesn't it it's just a disproportionate response to that risk is what they're saying right If you want to talk about the worst thing that you can imagine, which is a child murder from nineteen. Eighty, two, two thousand eight statistics about murder of children under five years old. Sixty three percent time. The parents are the ones who did it followed by twenty three percent. So that's eighty. Six percent total twenty three percent are male acquaintances. So, like you know, moms boy friend or something like that? Seven percent or other relatives, so only three. Set of all murders of young children are strangers right

again and again, dress tanks were addressed the fear of strangers doing something to your child. Not making light of these other statistics and thereupon It's out there like good. That's enough! That's the fact that happens. One kid makes me want to protect a child and make sure that they don't do that. Ok, they're here parent Europe. Your raising your kid. In that way, I understand, but again what the what the free range kids people are saying is like, like is a really worth that like what what about that is is a mean is really work. That kind of a response and we'll get to we'll get to that because you could like if there were no negative aspects of of completely ensconced in your kid and protection than the free range kid advocates Have any thing they could be like. Ok, well, whatever that's what you're doing with your kid, but there's suspicions that the that actually is

detrimental to the development of a kid protecting them from everything at all costs, and I think that one of the big others foundational platform post tenets of the free range kids thing that one was for showing off our aids. So building on that, like you, like your saying, like they're they're there to be like, in order to get apparent on board with a free range parenting lifestyle, it's not just I wanna be lazy, or I want to go back to my childhood. Its apparent who thinks there are actual benefits to doing so great that outweighs the risk, like you were saying, of the three percent chance or the one percent to the point: five percent chance but something's gonna happen to make. Yet, if they're on their own, There is evidence- and it's good

In growing evidence that all these efforts to scare you're all these activities for your kid r O. Looking one big fundamental element of raising a healthy, well adjusted child. That seems to be getting lost more and more, which is something called free play the America look at me. Pediatrics has report out. They said it. Free play, promotes social, I'm sorry, socio care It is the new the new way of saying. Social, emotional, cognitive language in self regulation, skills that build executive function and a pro social brain play is fundamentally important for learning twenty first century skills like problem solving collaboration, creativity and executive functioning skills that are critical for adult success right and they threw that last went in to be like well, ok, maybe plays good, but its neck, and them in life and theirs.

Yes, it will actually help them in life in their by keeping them from playing year, basically creating a little adult from from the nursery which is interesting to be checked. Is prior to the nineteenth century. When you were a kid sorting around eighty five or something you view had a job eve if it wasn't around like your family's farm maybe you're, helping out with them the war. That your mom took in who knows, but then you like, there was no such thing as childhood: really And then we moved away from that and we developed childhood and now it seems like we're moving away from childhood. Now we're taking kids and they're. Not not working on the farm, we're making them little sea I was in marketing directors and brand managers and stuff like that. But they're they're lose their childhood in that bargain is, I think, that's what they're saying and from play specifically play helps but it helps also like just in and of itself for its own sake, but it all

helps eventually down the road. It's an investment that will pay off. I think, in terms that helicopter parents can understand yeah there's another guy named Peter Gray, he's a developmental psychologists. He is called free to learn and found it. A non profit I believe with Yes can Aisy called let grow low play on words there. Yes, and he basically says that you know if you look back through human evolution, children. Their education was through play with their peers and if you look it societies and cultures and today. That I mean how would you classify these cultures? Traditional societies, I'm not sure maybe, but they say that that children of these cultures that still play and explore freely, if their left to do that

they will do so ended there. Ten years like that is natural instinct is to be among their peers, free playing right, but since like. I think one of the problems that helicopter parents have the idea of play. Is there like it's? It's a waste of time, kid could be learning like cello or in so doing, math flashcards or like creating a better foundation for a better future for themselves. And that, if they're not doing that their falling behind, and so what Peter Grey some of his ilk or saying is like none in play helps, Bela, but child in ways that no other thing you could possibly come up with their supervisor get them to do can, because this is what we ve done all this time, this is how we build. Society is letting little kids playing figure things out on their own and he says that there's apparent around of its supervised it further.

Apparently even within like eyesight earshot. Are you know, there's a guy apparent watching, it's gonna be different. It has to be unsupervised unstructured play so that the kids can be left to make up their own rules can can be taught by group that you know actually now that's airily, fair or it's not really cool, to take the ball and go home because you are winning That's how you learn that stuff and those are good things to learn. That makes you a more socially well adjusted. Kid, then, probably learning cello is going to suffer, were you can try and teach your kid by showing and by telling as much as you can as apparent? And that is all valuable, but nothing will teach a lesson to a kid like learning it through experience with there There's right- and I remember myself- you know when I was a kid like that- biggest lessons I learned world were lessons that I learned

by peer group. You know, like I tough hard lessons that alot appear sitting, tryin even she'll their kid from cause, it's tough stuff. Sometimes, but- and you know you don't want your kid to suffer, traumas and things like that, but not to sound apparent from the nineteen fifties, but that stuff does help build your child's character, and I mean I guess at some sort of old What it does is Alps them learn how to read. Their emotions and out of fit in with their peer group, which is in turn, going to beat eventually just society at large right. It's funny. You say that that sounds, the fifties, because this whole idea of like free range kids, is kind of based on the philosophy of Doktor Spock, who is like one of the first experts the first child experts that America ever really paid attention to and he wrote

book in nineteen. Forty six called the common sense book of baby in child, any basically saying all the stuff that free range got. Kids parents say is likely kid play, let your kid like learned through their own, their own way of, exploring the world like. Let them take risks. Let them be themselves trust your instincts as apparent, and so this were frequent parent seem to be kind of getting back to is like the Doktor Spock School of Thought, Benjamin Spock, not dumb the other Spock, not live long and prosper spot did. He have a first name. I want an amended Mucha STAR Trek added. Neither this lay it on a million people are going to send an email, we're waiting theirs, In March, a star trek added neither this late, honest million people who are going to send an email, we're waiting, there's something called the internal external locus of control scale.

Scale in these days since nineteen sixty there's been a big shift in the scale and how teens report themselves, and their internal control in ten eighteen or very little internal control over their own lives- and grave believes in Think he's really onto some here that these high, levels of anxiety and depression among kids, these days has a lot to do with that meetings is directly related to the decline in free play over the last few. No forty or fifty years right, which I want to say like this. This is like one psychologists, union. It makes a lot of sense to me and I'm sure it does to a lot of people, but it there's enough not necessarily like good gospel truth or set in stone. It sure the jury stood out, but there is a lot evidence out there that the does seem like over. Protecting your kid can stunt them in

emotionally or developmentally, and then them go be themselves and in learn things on their own and learn that they can pick themselves back up and still, I've and failures, not the worst thing in the world can actually help them develop that this is it's just We we routinely shoot holes and in social psychology stuff all the time we do a gleefully. So I dont want I go, the opposite wanes Billy, but this one's right, because we agree with you that guy necessarily the case, and I a lot of people disagree with it, but I tied the kind of favour that that mentality probably be This is how I was raised. Yeah and it like. I said it does sound like a from the 1950s say that failure breeds character. But you know it really does is sort of a simplistic way to say it, but it when you fail, you hopeful, learn something and build on that, and that does build character right. So what are

the things they call, that is, the dignity of risk. Where you are showing your kid I'm I'm. Letting you go figure this out. On your own and in another big gum, misunderstanding with free range parents is that That you just go for like zero to walking in taking the subway in New York at the flip of a switch. That's how it works. You? U slowly, build your kid up for this. You know the big thing that you write an article about, but there's a dozens or scores, or possibly hundreds of a little interactions that you're having to kind of make sure that your kid is up for this when there. Finally, when you decide their finally ready to- and it's not just like flipping a switch- is very kind of thoughtful and protracted and plan, but not necessarily with the kid that's planned paying out of trust, kid can show you yeah, I'm ready for this. I know what to do. I'm not just kinda like ball up

those on the ground in the subway and in start crying entails and caused diamond one in the cops. Come get me well yeah. I m sure, when she sent her kid on the subway home that very first time it wasn't it like our ears, the stuff see later, I'm sure there was a very serious talk like our right dude. I trust you and what you do this I know you know the way we're gonna give this a shot don't if I see you on the news in the middle of times square like you're gonna, be a big trouble right. I'm sure there was a lot of thought in talk that went into that and you know what I'm saying. Yes, I totally in kids get that stuff. You know for sure. Kids are smarter than people given credit for allows. I'm dynamic it's interesting when it comes to the law, because, as such, thing in Utah last year and two thousand eighteen became the first eight to pass what was called a free range parenting law whereby Sickly was just sort of redefining what child neglect was.

In a neutral, fellows or the other way when I was reading this, but it actually went the way of sort of encouraging or being behind free range printing. The new definition apparent cannot be accused of neglect just because their kid is going to a store by themselves. Down the street or playing outside alone or bike the school on their own or at home without apparent there. If there are minor, which is pretty interesting yeah, I thought so too but most free range parents who like how we want to live de new tar, so hopefully our states will all come up with similar laws. They they d criminalize firing parenting, because in a lot of states, things like latch key kids are illegal, like you can have your kid taken from you. If they are alleged to kid under a certain age or think in Washington, you have to be fourteen to be left at home alone. Like you, you could lose your kid.

The real problem with trying free range parenting because part of this helicopter parenting society is also helicopter villages, but rather than picking up the tab When in calling the parents, whose kids you see wandering alone down the street, like you use, it would have done. No people just call pick up the phone call the cops and then the cops respond and they take the kid. Shall protective services and the parent has to go down and explain that They will never do this again in the very. Sorry or else child protective services will take their kid from them, most states rule on what's called the best interests of the child which are totally subjective, is complete. We not based on any actual case law. Necessarily it's just. Does the job protective services person think that that the the kid is is smarter,

to walk from the playground to the house. No, ok, well, we're taking your kid maybe permanently, and so it's it's really risky to raise your kid. This way because p but we ll call the cops if they see your kid walking down the street and real trouble. We're your parent ship of your kid is indeed pretty at that moment, which has got to be one of the worst things that could possibly happen too apparent and this is where we can we get back to the place of like this? Is a privilege has a lot to do with this, because when it comes to the law in children and child protective services. You way more likely to get a visit from child protective services. If you are poor or if your person of color or minority like They may write an article about you in the local magazine praising you, if you're like a white suburban,

parents of middle or upper middle class for letting your kid free range around, but in the case like Deborah hero in two dozen fourteen South Carolina, she wasn't like do I want to be a free range parent she's, like I'm a working mom, and I welcome Mcdonald's and I'm finishing a shift in my nine year, old daughter is playing in a park nearby until I'm done and they sent her to jail for a night and took her daughter for two weeks away from her. Yes, seventeen days yeah, so that it is very much a case of privilege to even be allowed to do this without getting a visit from child protective services. Right, so skin asian and some of the other free range parents say right. This why we need laws that are much more common sense in decriminalizing, the behaviour and to put the trust back and parents to know that their kids are smart enough or if they think their kids are smart enough to be trusted with that kind of stuff. They wouldn't let them do that

They argue that this would benefit everybody, whether no matter you know whether you're minority or whatever hum socio economic status you have, which is which is true. That's a pretty it's a pretty sensible. It sensible but I think that the kind of underscores the larger problem which, as you know, like some people, don't have the choice to to get child care. If the school suddenly cancels class, like you just can't afford it. What are you gonna do and then your beer works as well. You can bring I'm here this is work, you know, but what can you do it? Hopefully, you raise your kid to a point where you can trust them to go play. You know next, nor the playground or something like that, but that doesn't mean that unite could end up in trouble with with the authority. So it's a sticky, sticky situation that were in two it is in here again it depends on your kid depends on where you live like it, brothers neighbourhood, I live there. I would let my kid

and do what she wanted when she was like seven, it's just so safe. And kids are everywhere on their own doing stuff very much like it was when we were kids at my house. I live next to a super scary. Street like I would never let her out of the front of my house, but even it. Have we let her go in the backyard by herself by herself. All the time right I mean just this past weekend, I she's out in the backyard and with the dogs and I went out about a half an hour later. She was walking through the garden the watering can singing, we will rock you like aright things find but again she said my enclosed backyard foods. I wouldn't sweat net. I would. I would never just open them,

door and be like go? Have fun? Memorial drives right? There, writers are going rights de MILES an hour, but that's the point. It's all contacts you know like you would have had to have worked up to that point. She would have had to show you that she was able to be trusted with that busy stream. Maybe she be sixteen before you would, but that's that's the points oak. It's all can its context, Vienna, Vienna, INA again to do the best. You can it's hard there, a thousand ways to do it and everybody thinks where is the right way, is right also just before we sign off, I want to say I didn't mean to pick on kids who take cello, lessons. Cello is by the way my favorite stringed instrument, which means- was the one that was easy is called the mind. That's why it kept bringing up the cello so I am you out their learning cello hats off to you, because it's my fave string instrument would refer with yoyo. Mamma had just been free plan.

But I'll bet yoyo. My did replay ability to both and if he didn't already regret if you want to know more about free range, kids will just go on the internet and start reading. Cuz there's a lot about it. Since I said that also there's a pretty good article on how stuff works. You can read too, since I said that it's time for listen to mail, I'm going to call this desert flooding, Hagen, listen to the park gas this morning on desert survival. I love you Phoenix Arizona and have for nineteen years the flash floods. Is real, even Metro, Phoenix. They have a stupid motorists law here, that's capitalized and end quote: she said, and she said after enduring or heavy rains a lot of Russia's fill with running water, a lot of the washes had been paved. Barriers will be put up

they flood, even if the waters only a few inches deep, but there is always someone who decides that their suv, your truck his heavy enough to get through. And their rescue is always on the nightly news man because they have to pay for it actually to pay for the cost of the rescue. Sometimes he stared devils, don't fair too. Well. Actually lives have been lost and less of moving water in a watch I believe I have heard six inches and Cheek Teresa. In very closes by saying this, do so enjoy your podcast. That's thank you LISA. We do so enjoy your emails to. Yes, I like the way she put that if you want to be like treason, impressed with your verbal written dexterity, we'd love that can stop. You can go to sleep. We should note I come and you can look up on the social links. You can also send us a podcast like Teresa, did to stuff podcast at I heart radio,

Not calm. Stuffy should know. Is the production of Iheart radios? How stuff works for more podcast, my heart radio? Is it that I heard radio apple podcast, Having listened to your favorite shows what is it that makes us human Let us remember taxing my hasn't videos. I've heard saying I I found the perfect dog. What are those moments that turn the ordinary into extraordinary and I thought and I just went that's my kid, like he's more I'm calling bath hosted the new podcast love. What matters presents your story which shares he'll stories of love and compassion from real people all over the nation, listen unsubscribe, and I already or apple podcast or wherever you wasn't upon guests.