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If you should know a production of Iheart radio welcome to the park cast Iron Josh clerk Canoes, Charles, the beach of brain over there in this stuff. You should know the man o me and tradition Do you know what I love about this topic? What is It's not just a bunch of like ran about how we think things are and how people think things are it's like so studied and statistic, heavy yeah that you can talk how things are and then say in here's the proof exactly. Here's a lot of data to back it up it's really great. I love it when they dovetail with this yeah. I get the impression, though, that you, when you're talking about the studying race and especially in America like you are, you have to back it up with data

like the rapporteur. I don't know about that, but I want to give a shout actually to scholars both so sociologists of race, professor villain, thereby she trailer from uses Barbara and Professor Tricia Rows of Brown University, both her experts on this stuff and They help me a big time with this and some other research on on racism of done, and they doktor by she trailers said: hey make sure you mentioned this hashtag. We have going called site, hashtag, sorry and I'm making the hashtag symbolic just interrelate hashtag site black women see idee black women in that leads to all sorts of good, often overlooked research by black scholars who are women that don't always get alot of credit. So I'm glad she told me about that one. I wanted to everybody else. So when you that was a stutter when he said so so sociologist

You didn't mean they were just mediocre, so how'd, you know I was. I will not go so geologists. I could see how that would be confusing. I was doing my impression of until call in saying sociologist so Syria will that last joke we're gonna tell oh yeah, probably I was worn by doktor should treat learned to do our usual. Stick man, we're talking about raised financial quantum theory we can handle are so she said I, listen to your stuff. I listen to the broad episode. Just trust me on this earth, like her So then that means the housing discrimination. Absurd officially starts source autonomy. Did discrimination and in the United States- and there is a very long history of housing. Discrimination in you might say, like they're, really sucks that sucks people have trouble buying a homer. Maybe they get less favourable

terms on their loans just because of their race and then does suck that's absolutely true. But it's even the map, because in the United States one of the biggest ways of growth wealth, enter generationally leg over the course of generations within a single family, through a house yeah I mean it's some People have a ton of money to invest in the stock market. Some people think the stock market is not something to trust him one thing that has always been fairly reliable in this country. You know safer. A few moments in history is real estate in the idea that, if you crap up and save enough money for on payment for home. That house will eventually be worth quite more years later and you can sell it in use that extra windfall of cash to invest in the stock market or to pass down

to your kid. So they can then get in the housing market sooner than they might have. Then it just becomes cycle aware it just builds wealth, like the average family in America has most of their net worth tied up in their house. And then you know when it comes down to sell it in the house has paid off debts, lot of money and then, when you take the bucket, your kids get that money, and maybe they get a better house in it just keeps growing and growing. So if you put up barriers to housing, you're actually putting up barriers to passing along intergenerational wealth winners, a big big, problem in America. Still today, I saw a study from I think Brookings that found that the median yeah twenty twenty brooking study said. The median net worth of white family in America is a hundred and seventy one thousand dollars

the media net worth of a black family in America, is seventeen thousand one hundred and fifty dollars about a ten out of what the median is for by people, and that is largely because of housing. Discrimination in the history of housing. Indiscriminate in this country year and as far as history goes, you know it started with literal ray laws where they said, if you're a black person or black family, you cannot live here, that went on for a while, and then those laws were sort of all to the Jim Crow separate, but equal era where they said you know Wilson things are better but is really the same. In the end, and then they got rid of those laws and said all right now we really ass, a meaningful legislation, and now we can just racially discriminate download and very creative ways, yeah, that's basically the pattern that its followed and White Kenneth stuck out to me Chuck, as is

that before about nineteen hundred before, like the rise of like industrialization too really legitimate degree in the United States like there wasn't not nearly as much segregation as we saw starting around nineteen hundred, especially in the north. because if you had a trader craft in the north and you're an african American, there is a really good chance that you are going to be serving white people, as well as black people write and because you usually were very closely your home was tied close to your shop. You often limited of it. If you were like a cobbler, something like that, you made live next door to a white baker or something like that. So the there wasn't a lot to say, irrigation until industrialization came along, and there is a big call for late. Which drew a lot of african Americans Alot of Black Americans out of the south up to the north and all of a sudden, all

people who are living in integrated neighborhoods. All those white people to say had had a problem with this influx of black migration from the south to the north and they responded with a lot of really discussing violence. Yeah I mean we ve talked about some of these raised incidents and race riots and raced almost race wars really here and there on the show in there always are. Talk about, but that was just sort of the reality of things at the time: in the nineteen thirty's. The new deal comes along. this is when legislation starts to kind of kick in when the government stepped in and said you know what we I think we should make it easier for people to own homes. We really want to boost homeownership, because that's a boon for the economy. The country, We're gonna create the home owners Loan Corporation, which is going to help people reef. And in their mortgages, but we need criteria here to sort of establish a year.

the form way of lake. Had it had a dollar this assistance and they reckoned. Let Let's look at every population of forty thousand or more and less create. or coded map based on riskiness these loans and they said you know they talk to real estate brokers, they talk to bankers, they said help us our help, is draw these boundaries and they came up with a one two, three four color graded system right, yeah, that's right! Because again, this is like long before credits wars were developed, so you couldn't really look it. You know if somebody came your bank, ass for alone, you couldn't be like while you're here. Your credit score is this: I'm not gonna win that start. I dont know we should do in episode on if we have an already her. But yes, the for color codes, they had were also delineated by grades grade a b c, indeed great was the most desirable neighborhood they were used homogenous meaning, white

There were lots of professionals living in their great, be, was maybe a step down, but still largely homogenous, if not totally homogenous, and there are considered still. arable and then necessary to get into the lower grades. Great c and d and see was, I think, colored yellow on the map. Yeah, the first two green and blue and then great sea was rated, is declining and colored yellow and that sort of, in fact, I think it even said infiltration of a lower grade population yeah in the document which I had to be a genius to figure out what they were saying there. It means people of color were moving in then finally end up with the color read a great deal, which is is desirable, very densely populated areas always communities of color right. So the ito Elsie created these maps and then along came the

your housing authority in this area, we need similar maps because we're not we're not here to help stem the tide of foreclosures were actually here generate new homeownership among Americans, but we still have the same issue. We gotta figure out whose creditworthy not working to base it on where the people live, and they basically made Donegal maps to the ito, Elsie MAPS and so pretty use them right. There Why of debate? I dont think anyone's found, Smoking gun yet, but if you take a toy Elsie Map in F age, a map- and you put them over one another, their Randy sickly, the same thing- and I I it's kind of all- is up for the debate still, but there. The upshot was that, because of these apps? If you lived in one of these red and often yellow communities, they wouldn't lend to you for for a new mortgage, or even second mortgage to save, remodel your home, and they

also wooden. Assists you with refinancing your existing mortgage, which means major subject for closure, and if you in a red or yellow community you are probably black or a person of color. Or some other ethnic minority, and that means that were shot out of this enormous housing. Boo that generated a tremendous amount of prosperity immediately after the new deal in war war to his will see so after him, Organs were left out over on the fringes of the new deal anyway, and This is where we get to shut out Francis Perkinses Perkins again, which is its funding now that we know so much about heard it continually shout her out but she did a lot of work, arguing in favour of inclusion for by people in the new deal, I guess you know sometimes successfully, sometimes not, but at the end of the day, the F, a J impose these rules through the new deal there

swear. Just like the the Asia will see in the process, of excluding these groups, because Europe cannot read I'll, read lining their. Does it like that where the whole term comes from. The exemplary comes from today, any anytime you discriminated against weathers by insurance or anything like that. Based on your race or say your community, it's called red lining now, but that's where it grew out of those HIV Elsie MAPS and Effigy man and I mean they would use terms, unlike their their handbooks, that, like these communities had quote desirable racial or nationality groups in them. So you couldn't You couldn't wyndham any money or whatever, and it was I mean. I think that this is still like a really big problem today, Yeah I mean back then, basically and still today, in many cases that leaves you with a couple of hours, This is a person of color. You can rent forever, oftentimes back then, and still now, from

white landlord who doesn't live anywhere near that community, not always usually origin. Pay for the home in cash witches stretch for anybody have to do in the sure like wealthy and there there were? I have to say there were black on banks, but there is nine, like oh man and the entire United States in the thirty. So there is a place where you could turn two of you lucky enough to have one in your area, but that there was not a solution to the general population for black. Dickens yeah, like you said it also affected their ability to get second mortgages to do home improvements or do expand on their house and upgraded remodel it That means that the properties organ of deteriorate declined over the years and is just it's part of that systemic races cycle that is just yeah because deal today now eventually overtime people from the outside looking

they look like people can't even take care of their communities. Look at look at how their houses are. I'm just as a result of this. That is definitely is like the definition of systemic racism for sure it's just by the way into the structures, If you hear dogs barking, my dogs are upstairs in there just very cited s topic yeah. Then it got to know what's going on there, but they're not gonna shut up, so I say we press on will press on, We take a break, then press on we're going to press on, like some Lee nails right after a break. How about that alright sounds good. Hey everybody, its Josh and shock, and we wonder remind you that I have great childhood memories from things that shape too. We are today in with a key we co subscription. You in your child can get everything you need to create some new on

global memories in their little heads. That's right- and I gotta say men of in using these little key. We co boxes for a long time with my daughter before they came on board as a sponsor and their great their lifesavers for parents who are looking for something fun to do something created adieu and something that actually teacher kid somethin yeah. They have supercool hands on science, art, geography, projects and they're all deliver Tudor every month, that's right and when they build these. things in their finnish and the complete a box. You can really really see their confidence. Yankee Rico is redefining learning with hands on projects that filled confidence, creativity and critical thinking, skills, there's something for every kid or kid at heart, a key Rico em right now you can get thirty percent off your first month, plus free shipping on any create lined with code ass White Ass k at key. Co k I w I c o dot com Josh. Yes, we're doers, that's right! We're makers, dear, we say shit

here's, what we're definitely dreamers and that's why we you square space as are online home, to tell everyone about our wives shows we ve always use their great templates and that great great website to tell people where we're gonna perform next yeah, We eventually go back out into the world. You bet we're gonna everybody on s why ass king live, are square space built website and it's like you, We don't have anything to sell Chuck, because we would be salmonella gangbusters with square spaces e commerce tools that right they got marketing tools analytics the ease of use. If I can actually do this thing, anybody can guess anybody. Can you can build your own website true with help from square space so had on over two squares based. I come slash as wires cake for free I'll and when you re in a large use the Africa, as well as key to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website domain square space, use it

uh huh I went back and look these things. Look amazing army, The written on it is a little bit of cuticle, showing I didn't put him right up against it, but still it's possible reality. If you pay them just right, that's not so noticeable feelings it. I need. I need to get some fillings so back to the topic at hand joking overlap. so here's the deal, there's like you, said a lot of debate whether or not, I don't think we said this part whether or not the lenders actually used these maps because these were government maps from government programmes. It's not like they said here eggs, have these in you, these, but if you

The statistics it seems like they probably get their hands on some of these maps. It does it also don't forget the government figured out. You know how to draw these maps for every city over forty five and people from the lenders from the bank from the real is there anyway? I get so they knew this anyway. But now the government is basically said it is ok to do this right and so that so yeah, if you, if you look at the outcome of this red, lining the these redline maps, is it really hard to say now? This didn't happen like this defiling, didn't make it out a government hands like Fraser. Let us great step just great, let's trade off between one thousand nine hundred and thirty four and one thousand nine hundred and sixty two over ninety eight percent of all the federally backed mortgage. that were issued in the United States, went to white buyers. Ninety eight percent between one thousand nine hundred and thirty, four and one thousand nine hundred and sixty two. That's right because of this black ownership

since then and continuing today is lag behind white homeownership in America and Twentys contains a few short years ago. Forty four percent, a black. Arrogance on their homes versus seventy, three percent of women arrogance and then the other problem, with red lining a community, as you basically put a pox on its cursed, because that means that those houses or not can you get any kind of attention until they're going to continue to deteriorate? And if you live in this community? As far as a banker's concerned, you are a huge credit risk right and the other was still today. seventy five percent of the neighborhoods that were originally redlined in those maps. Arse are red line we can't communities today there, which is I mean that's pretty surprising, Now- also saw that ninety nine Study found homes in red line neighborhoods in nineteen o six were still worth less than half of those in green neighborhoods

yeah and here's, the one I marked visas, stats with an exclamation point, use that's how excited I get it, but the one I'm really florid by an uneven. Anything except for three exclamation point. I've got three exclamation point by ninety percent of back federally back more use for sure That is definitely one. Here's mine, if it might say: well what about variables, man and education level in income level and stuff like that, like you gotta draw that in a whole other side conversation as far as systemic races, and being able to go to good schools and afford a good education and the good job and all that so just part that to decide, but If you control over all those variables college educated black Americans are still less likely to own their home than white amiss gins without a high school diploma. Yes, that's that's what really get years when they there like. Well, let us just control.

All these factors and the insulin we aerial that remains is the race, people applying for alone or owning, it is still the case that, when it's like wolves is indisputable, actual yeah, and you know you didn't put a price on this red, ended a study last year in twenty twenty, that black american families out on the opportunity to accumulate an average of two hundred and twelve thousand dollars of You know what we're talking about that intergenerational wealth per household, the last forty years, just over the last forty years and me we're talking about stuff. That started me back in the days of sleep, very but really started to take off in the nineteen thirty with the new deal- and this is just since nineteen eighty lost out on that amount of money per household. That's not, and still today, Chuck here's another. When it gets me, black American is five times likely

own a home in a red line, neighbourhood than a white American is so there is still an issue today, so red lining these maps set off this enormous amounts of discrimination. I guess it's all. You can say, and then all of the horrible effects that come out of that that level of discrimination, but they were the only things that set it off gee, I bill really kind of came in and said will hold on hold. My dear I want to mess things up to what is hold my dear me, it means that, like there's, some do just kind of sitting, there was a sure just barely covering got drinking beer watching somebody do something stupid any says hold my here and then let them of the need to deepen more stupid right yeah. I thought that's what it but in a moment, I'm an old man with a shirt barely covering I was quite sure you should spend more. On urban dictionary. It should

I don't u much burning more them, although I do love it. What's your favorite. I mean you know? I love tropical you're here out of Athens, Georgette Ivy Circumference still never had one well, you come over, have a curator. Now, in my day, oh my god and servant it up, but I I don't know why I got it. I got it for friends because I don't drink it's on a beer and then the pending happened, and now I just got a half a beer sitting guided gotta furnish. It always a year? The g I bill this. You know in theory the g I built a great thing in it has done what a good but this case it did block access to homo among Black Americans, because they would come I'm from over to others. I built- was passed. Sir handing out mortgages, the veterans

and they were actually allowed to discriminate based on race. Yet it shocking yeah well like whenever you see that kind of thing you like doesn't gibe with what I understand just look to the Dixie Crafts. The segregation of the out through worry powerful voting block during the Jim Crow era and They were like to appease them and get them to vote for something like a new deal program or did not do everything they could to buy get you had to say. Ok, we will make sure that that blacks are excluded excluded from this, that the black Americans more have access to this amazing programme and they like I'll, get caught Lutz. Let's do it That's that's right! That's where a lot of that came from, and I mean you it's easy to blame the Dixie crash, but you can also be like Bob. You know how hard it try to go around the Dixie credits to mean it was allowed to happen yes by everybody, despite Frances Perkins, best efforts,

yeah me, here's a staff, for instance in Mississippi and nineteen forty seven day, though doled out more than three thousand the aid at home loans that year Two of them were to black veterans. Pretty startling don't, even though the percentage on that ninety nine point, nine eight, a young girl repeating something in there somewhere. and you know this is a big deal, because when we were too ended They wanted a housing burned. There was a lot of the supplies that would have gone to home construction during the war went to the war effort, so that J said you know what we we need. A housing boom here, we're gonna guarantee structure loans. To you like a big can construction companies out there and that's the suburbs popped up for the first time yet and that chain everything forever yeah!

I mean like the they. The birth of the suburbs were like a deliberate programme created by the federal government to to basically get more people buying houses. to start the intergenerational wealth and they create a middle class or to expand the middle class. Dramatically, and they were able to do that partially through just like when the f HIV came along, said hey. You know we're going to back these people's loans as long as they're, not in a red line. Neighbourhood. That's as to the wonders will, then you know that means, even if this person to fall the government will by the loan. For me, I'm gonna get pay back, no matter what they did the same thing to these construction companies to which create this huge housing boom, but there is a heavy ought to it, just like with the visa loans. That said, you can discriminate based on race for loans, even though This is really important chuck. Even though the government, the Ba, would back the loan of a black veteran just

they were back. The loan for white, veteran and you'd be repaid, no matter what you are still allowed to discriminate based on race. The F, a chase supposedly with the birth of the suburbs, said we're going to guarantee your construction. Lonesome can build suppers, but can't sell to black Americans, that's another one that I don't think there's a smoking gun that I saw right, so I dont know if that means like get the word out like you, can't sell the black people or we're not gonna back these loans or if it was stated, policy I haven't been able to turn up, but that's well understood that the FBI J discriminated against black people, basically moving to the suburbs by not backing structural funds like that will yet, and there were neighbourhood, covenants and place. That said that black people cannot Homes in these neighborhoods they were there were clauses, it said you cannot resell your home. If you gotta move, he can't sell it to happen.

family. You do if you wanna, be startle, go search that on Google images. There's like pictures of these clauses in deeds that say You can't sell to anybody. Who is not? Why or even specifically, you can't sell anybody whose black, it's really jarring yet in its I mean it was sort of expressly understood that the suburbs or being created for reason and that to get white people out of the city. A place where they can live among themselves in it It's something that still going on when, during the most recent presidential election campaign Donald Trump replaying preying on these fears. Again, he was saying things like literally Suburban housewives of America Biden, will destroy your neighborhood in Europe. Can dream people living there, suburban lifestyle dream will no longer be bothered a fight or financially hurt by having low income housing built in your neighborhood and these are literal quotes in its history-

to garner a certain kind of vote to be sure. But out you know we'll get to other suffer mean Trump has a long history and his and his family within his father of the house, discrimination but the in result of all this is white people whose dino what color white flight they left the city's moved to the suburbs. People that were in the city, still these african american families in his yellow and redlined communities, where a sort of stuck there so the government of Sudan to bill affordable housing, which it There were racially integrated. There were black people and white people, but then the lower income white people. Head for the suburbs yeah, because wages rose yeah and they live cities in an urban communities almost entirely black yeah. So, proportionately speaking, There was a tremendous drain. of white people from the city's. I do I'm sure it was different on a city to city based

Moreover, you know it was there's. No, you can't put a whole blanket of history. Over every school of the United States, so different cities have different experiences but, proportionately speaking, fighting I have always made up a smaller amount of the American. population overall? But then, if you look at the in a percentage of black people, say in a city and nineteen ninety a theme I think as when it picked for land, in particular its like, say fifty percent blacker, something that's a way larger proportion or disproportionate amount of black people living in the city. Then, in the suburbs and then, conversely, Chuck when you look at the suburbs in the statistics about race, demography and the sovereign. then it really kind of all comes home. Yeah and you know their living in the suburbs they decide. You know we still need to go into the city sometimes, so we need interstates to get us there, because we going to concerts, occasionally or

a professional sports team play in so they build these interstates they'd can a barrel through black neighborhoods than there they often became dividing line in Now these communities were set up to fail. They had less frequent garbage pick up, they head inadequate funding keep up this public housing that they build lower access basic utilities in there, in no position to to succeed, basically I'm trying to remember what episode we talked about proof. I go housing project in in Saint Louis? I think it was environmental psychology episode, if I'm not mistaken, but that was a really good example of this of how people pointed it people from the outside relate like you can't they blame. You can't take care of anything like it that led the degraded state that this housing project is in and it's like, you said like they were set up.

to fail through all through, like a lack of attention, the lack of funding just a black of basically everything and it's it's- that kind of seems to keep perpetuating these biases, for example- and this is a big one that will talk about later- that white people think if by people moving doing, area there, housing values are gonna, go down because of stuff like that. Yeah I mean that sort of the. I guess he caught the dog whistle that everyone leans on their like, hey wit, you know we don't mine bigoted at all. We just want to keep our housing values up. That's right that that, so at one and then the d, the myth that black or just inherently on credit worthy or not creditworthy. Are they,

few things that seem to be used the most as cover for, like you, said, post civil rights era, segregation in the United States, the dog whistle to say yeah I mean, and now is when we can talk a little bit about general. occasion, because I mean the way housing has worked in this country's really fascinating in really gross in a lot of ways, but just enter thing to look at it from a birds. I point of view the way- people move around and what eventually happened with the cities is that you know come on what you want yuppies or day there's a lot and aim for upwardly mobile why people there like hey a move into the city. I wanna be closer to to the concert, although this Can it be controversial? I'm gonna get credit for this, but one most annoying trends, are the less like fifteen years is building on these concert venues out the suburbs area.

It's so annoying, and I know they want their concert venues out there, so they don't have to come to the city, but I hate when I went to my bans plays thirty miles out into the suburbs, and I won't go yet. Is Canada although we do go out a huge, I saw a motley crew thanks to our greatest Strauss, no less true, so that was TAT was worth trip because there was merely through and else Cooper, Think I don't know, I think all sport stadiums and all accounts for around one should be in the city. I'm with you. That's definitely try to go into the city for a big day out when they start moving museums way out in the exercise and I'm done the same thing you can make the same case when they built the highways in everything they just kind of built them through black communities is what they did with with the stadiums and all that is well too,

Well, now, that's true in a little bit about raves, they just plug brays Stadium, TED Turner out just right in the middle of mechanics bill, which is historically black, unity and said everybody move, move aside and dont harass all the white people who come down to see the game on unity, Andy. We should do I mean a loss for its, but we should do area there such a problem. Excited pro sports from that too, billion or owners use city money to build new stadiums when there are other stadium is just like ten years older, whatever. That is definitely problematic. It's crazy! What a crazy amount of waste that produces a won't just then alone all right. So where was I worry I'll wait are moving into the neighborhoods again in the city because they want good, typhoid and these neighborhoods become a little more attractive. The more white people

then to other white people to move in, and they start moving in increasing numbers The houses are generally renovated or improved over time, or sometimes they might those it. You know a pretty decent house with good bones and just to build. You know the biggest house possible him on there. postage stamp of a why it's crazy, how close they build these mammoth houses together, I'm sure, happens everywhere. Atlantis get a real problem with it. What happens is you know? Come values are going to increase that's going to raise taxes on the other homes around them. A lot of time- other homes are owned by long time, lower income residents most times people of color it unsustainable. We have a great great pro. I'm here in my neighborhood and called neighbour a need that is I have four main charities that we work with and give to every year and neighbour, is one of them because we like to say really locally listen, but

neighbours need basically addresses this head on and they now raise a lot of money and they use that money to take your these people. they re here about a neighbor, that's like in need. You know they need like an older african American coupled he's been here for forty years their having to pay way too much and property taxes Can afford a roof on their house and they'll go for it. If on their house or they'll, pay their power bill, it's great, whatever I mean it's a really really great grass roots organisations so very happy to be With them in trying to fight the sort of ills of gentrification overall yeah. That's need because it also draws the community together to help the longest term residents of egg. unity rather than the whole everybody's on their own kind of thing, which, sure most people who move into a community, like you know that is gentrifying, probably

wanna. Do they just don't know how to do it or they don't know how to contact anybody? People notice usually go over to the neighbor's house and knock on the door and introduced themselves any more that's cool. Yeah- and you know this is sometimes they are able to sell their house for a pretty good. You know the housing value does increase other able to get more money than they might have before can be a nice windfall, but I have also seen first hand. Literally with my neighbors diesel, predatory home builders that come in there and while I think it's probably decent money compared to what they thought they could get it still lower than what they would offer a white family, but even just even if they were treated fairly and they walked away with the big windfall from the sale, and you know head a lot of money to retire on that community was still fractured. Did you know? I know The people who are having to move in their neighbors, who already had to move, may have lived there for generation,

Sir evening out this their whole lives and they formed community and it's not like the whole community, just moved elsewhere. It again they all go to different communities. Often the end of their life and it leads to alienation. Isolation. Is it that I mean that's all problem, even even if they are being paid well for the the houses there there being out of because they don't sincerely want to move, but they just can afford the taxes anymore right. So there's there. That's a big issue with gentrification stuff to get around sounds like that neighbourhood groups that you're talking. What's the name again neighbour, a need that they fear that they figured out a way around it. Do you know it there? to be dude is, and this is Chuck twenty twenty two twenty two stuff, ok I think if you live in a house long enough, you shouldn't have the pay property tax, anymore yeah. I think there how to be a lot, maybe it's like twenty years or something

that would solve a lot of this problem. There is is zero reason why so, elderly african american couple. This then in a home for forty years needs to be paying taxes at all on the ass, much less these jacked up right right here, and I think that's that's totally too. I think there's a if it's not lie there's a proposal in Georgia to do that when you're sixty five or something like that- maybe I mean I'm mad about property tax anyway, just because it's the we pay so much in taxes, then he finally scrape up You have to buy a place that around and the governments that, unlike well you're good, had to pay tax on that do right, I know it's unfair. so you shouldn't- have to pay full price for coffee anywhere when she reach sixty five agreed, especially after three p m

very well. Should we take a break in the talk about the fair, ousting act which solve everything they totally did it's all great now right will be right back up to this. This absurd is brought you buy. I be em from laboured you, those two Cronus the world loves a hybrid and study business is so

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hybrid cloud using the tools, platform and expertise of IBM. The world is going hybrid, with IBM, go hybrid at IBM, Dotcom, slash, hybrid cloud yeah oil. We ruin things, they passed the fur housing acting. Racism has been solved in America. That's right. nineteen sixty eight and we talked about the fear housing at a little bit- and you know the good thing they passed it it did Ben discrimination in housing practices officially, but It just lead to a little trick. Your way to get around stuff by doing the download again that is inadequate, and that is for, if you studying systemic Grayson system in the United States that the passing of like the voting rights,

back the Civil Rights ACT, the fair housing act in some other legislation during the sixties really change things. In that it no longer was the government in the business of enforcing discrimination and segregation, and also now you had recourse in the courts. If you were discriminated against but it didn't just a race racism in the United States that the task of enforcing, basically white supremacy racial discrimination and segregation and all the stuff they comes along with it fell to lesser institutions in everyday people who care. it out and when you're talking about something like housing discrimination, the people who now are best able to continue enforcing segregation and discrimination, the United States are people like lenders and real estate agents, and even people who

deciding where to buy a house everyday Americans buying the house often make choices that they don't necessarily think are racist and they might they probably dont, think that racists, but there still there housing choices, often reflect in version or otherwise. Racial choices are choices, long racial lines yeah. In this. You know this next bit were restored resting on real estate professionals, a little bit, I have good friends at a real estate agents, their great people. For the most part we don't meet interest paint. everything with the big broad brought low at the industry does have a history of it for sure. Yes, yes, we have to talk So there was one in it is, there was one practice called block, bustling God not having anything to do with video stores. I noticed the eighties, but literally busting up a block.

A real estate agent would work, are sort of act as a speculator and say either hey! You know what I think you know there are some biting Is it are moving into the area you may now think about selling just to protect your home values before they found or they might sell to a black family and introduced than to the area good then turn around. By these houses from the white residents and seldom to the black residents, or you know, hopefully black residents, but it a big mark up yeah and which, as insult to injury like they created a basically white flight from an area just from the room of black people moving in and then they move like people in and sell their cell to them at wildly inflated rates, which is crazy, and I read one story to chuck- of one of these real estate agents that was doing black busting. They would have a black dad with stroller. Why around the neighbourhood like he had moved it

nervous thinking a moving or whatever, and apparently just that was enough to get people to start to sell and again you, like you know, this is this, is terrible that real estate agents are doing it, but the fact that it was a really says a lot about every day in a white homeowners, two and also again like it. It doesn't mean like that. These white homeowners hate black people, like They were worried about their property values because it such an inn, added myth in America that winnable family, moves into a neighborhood there, so bad at taking care of their there. How in their home values that it's going to drag the home values down in throughout the entire neighbourhood, So everybody need to get out before that happened. That's that's again! That's the definition of systemic racism yeah- and you know this has been busted up to a large degree. Officially, but up until nineteen fifty the official policy the National Association of Real estate boards

said. A real choice should never be instrumental in introducing into a neighborhood member. of any race or nationality, whose presence will clearly be detrimental to property values in that neighbourhood. That was but liberal policy up until nineteen fifty a m, there was a study in two thousand six by the national, fair Housing alliance, that said, and this is something else called steering which is not black. busting, but it's like hey, look We want to show you houses over here in this neighborhood because we think is a better fit for you in you know, the financial instruments available to get mortgages for you and maybe just for everybody, and black people historically have given the full picture. There maybe not shown white neighborhoods study found that steering occurred, eighty cents. percent of the time when researchers his buyers and were shown homes like these sort of under cover operation in steering occurs. Not just you know,

if you're, if your black homebuyers you're not just going to be shown a black neighborhoods, if your white homebuyers they're- probably not going to take the black neighborhoods either so through this process of racial steering. This is basically enforcing patterns of segregation still in the union. states. Here there was another study by brookings. The black on homes are your valued by an average of forty. thousand dollars in this is one that's controlled by all the factors like home quality and immunities in everything we exclamation point here is Rio Grande literally because it is a home on by a black individually up when they control for amenities, where the home is the size of the how's. Everything else about the house. If you compare apples, apples and it's the sea,

house owned by a white person and the other house. That's exactly the same owned by a black person. The black person's house is going to be forty, eight thousand dollars less in value just because it's owned by a black person, and that's that's just basically that whole idea of that black people drag home values down becoming a cell phone. In prophecy, and that, though those same home values are all of that. Undervaluing that same brooking study found amounts to a loss of about a hundred Fifty six billion dollars for black Americans for wealth. They were not to achieve that, and you know we talked a lot about the great recession in the mortgage crisis can and when it was going on, and shortly thereafter, black Americans back then, were likely to receive subprime mortgages These were the loans that were really expensive to repay, and higher fees. They had her interest rates.

also had mechanisms built in if you were a blow alone owner that made. It is for the latter to seize their collateral, which usually there, how yeah sure, and so like it makes sense that if you are taking a great, risk lending to somebody as the bank. You should be they get more money for right, but the problem is MRS, like subprime mortgage is were doled out to black homeowners, a black hole fires way higher rates than they were to white home buyers and that's problem in and of itself, if the, if the rates are less favourable in its easier for the bank to represent the house, but especially, it proved to be a big problem during the mortgage crisis when that bubble burst, because if you are a low income, black american you're probably denied a mortgage of any kind.

But even if you were middle too high income, black homebuyers, you probably got a sub prime mortgage compared to say a white buyer with the same: criteria that you had to offer. So that meant that when those foreclosures happen because the bubble burst black Americans ink, especially wealthier black Americans were disproportionately impacted so that that subprime mortgage debacle, erased way more black intergenerational wealth than it did for white people. Yeah. My last three exclamation point stat during the subprime mortgage crisis study that found a black and white no families, because you mention people of color a few times. It is not just a solely african european families affected in this the black and latino families making too thousand dollars a year or more we're still more likely to receive a sub prime loan than white family.

making less than thirty thousand dollars a unit nuts and six point: percent of white people, with a credit score of six stay or higher, received sub prime mortgage compared to twenty one point, four per a black borrowers with that same creditworthiness, so Chuck, there's big problem with all this in its kind of, like you said at the beginning, like when you Talking about race and especially discrimination by race. People tend to be like specially wiping tend to be like. Why don't know about that? I mean there's a lot of other factors involved like it could be anything, so you really have to kind of proof that this is a thing and ever since the federal government got out of discriminating on paper, it's gotten a lot harder to track. So

back in the seventies, the Department of Housing in urban development. They have an office of research in policy. They came up with a way of testing this to control for as many variables as possible and to see if it's just race that is being discriminated against and is called paired testing. really pretty clever from what I understand. Yeah, that's when you get to equally qualified candidates to apply for hormone or to go to work it will save agent in like look at apartments or houses or whatever they are trained to basic B as identical as they can be the one to respond. The questions in the same way have the same credit. Resale job, satisfying income level and basically sort of bees. blockades of one another, except for their skin color working together, so they don't even know why there's nobody

there are even cause you're not like paired together right there, not like. Oh they got you. I'm gonna try this with them like they. Don't they don't meet one another? They interact with one another there just doing their thing in there just trained to do exactly the same way. The only distinction between them is through their race. Right, and so the Urban Institute, which is a think tank studied s and they came up with, can afford big points from this paired testing excess. eyes, which is they found about discrimination and housing. Vouchers that are in indeed the let low income renters choose from a bigger pull a riddle housing than the real truth even showed There were fewer homes and apartments available to minorities like we were like, mentioned earlier, like just smaller like no, you know, will just look here. Either rate nearing usually result in fewer fewer places being shown

we're steered again to private, primarily You know neighbourhoods of their own ethnicity, and then given less information overall, like a mention about mortgage products, different and learns different kinds of ways during alone, just not given information at all right, so the they also founded protesting, turns a very frequently there em, it's not just even people of color, not just black Americans, but its people of color in general, but it's not even just that under to racial discrimination. There's also a lot of discrimination against people who are differently able they actually sometimes fair worse then minorities when it comes to housing, discrimination, paired testing is, is turn that up as well. So it's still the upshot of all this is that it still a problem.

And there is like some silver lining to it, the the I think that same think tank Urban Institute also turned up that there has been a general decline overall, it's not huge, but it's it's no worthy is remarkable of preference in favouritism toward white white buyers over buyers of thumb, of like minority buyers, by about five percent between ninety nine and two thousand and one for about twenty six percent to twenty one percent. So then, there does seem to be a general decline in racism or discrimination. I should say in the United States so that the Good NEWS is that America seems to be less racist. The bad news is that America's still racist, we still have a long way to go. It's as the sea. Any put. The studies. Findings confirm a hard truth that It has long journey to end housing. Discrimination remains unfinished as

This is still a long way to go, and I think it's really important firmly to realise that there is a long history of discriminating against people of color, but also very specifically, black Americans, and that it still going on today and even though its in a slightly Sir form its very important. If it's going on at all that we we erase it nitrate agreed the anything else had not announce aright Chuck what that's housing, discrimination and ever since I said all right shook his time for listener, mail, well, instead of reading a specific listener mail, and because this episode is all heavy, we thought we'd have a little fun. We got maybe more emails than we are for any other episode in our histories down literally about Necker waivers. a lot of support for the neck. Oh, how from people and a lot of condemnation for yakking yams without even having tried them. You were all correct,

We honor you all and we're gonna Josh godson said unto me: we're try some ECHO first on the air. Listen there I just realized. I think I've made a grave mistake by not having any water in the base. May I realise this is well give a piper didn t I think we should have the same color Aurelio current. we can gonna go. You know, knows the nose, When these before UK, exactly lying, I heard already nasty you know everybody was right about yakking people's young, general, but also because we have tried, and so that's why we're doing this I mean they're just fallen apart when I opened the package, so the strike one they smell. Terrio, I've got a mess. what color are we gonna? Do I mean it's hard to tell this look sort of like a very pale yellow. That's the only hole when, in my hand, pale yellow own even have that got white. I've got orange it- maybe maybe it is white-

While we wait for my have available, I do I do to get ready to the people in these have only a big area, how, my god, it's just like. It's like a flatter, bigger, candy heart becomes In short, this album Legato gave a very hard. The crunch is, I think, would probably gets people. I mean the traces of balance but It's not great, no they're, not great, but I mean who's crazy for conversation, hearts it goes and weirdos. You know the same goes for me as well what's the verdict? Would you ever buy and eat mecca wafers after this? I will tell you I will probably eat the rest of these, and I like it, I like grow you You gonna do one of the great ones. You click. What about you?

no! No, that's not my my labour under the tried chocolates, because those recommended steer clear the dark, grey ones, Liquors Windsor, powerful it is slightly different, into cocoa. I've come around a little bit of the licorice ones at the end wound. Turning into an echo weirdo actually chocolate our bed robots. Can I think that MRS Winner Green, people are so I just got here right now yes very worthy literally the last two people listening this man. I think we should wrap this ok. Well, if you want to tell us that we the New York everybody jam, specially something we haven't tried. We need here that whenever we do that, it's totally true entirely right. Thank every who wrote him you can get in touch with us at stuff. Podcast I heard radio dot com

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