Human experimentation is an age-old practice, dating back to 4 BCE. Listen in as Josh and Chuck give you the low-down on the historic, grisly underbelly of science and medicine -- human experimentation.
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I welcome the podcast unjust clerk happy New year to her that's Chuck Brian. Charles W Brine, they alone here himself yeah those chubby make a baby new year, Chuck Yale two years. Therefore kid He always as it can a curling Erica You have brought up watching me at the local emission happy New year baby thing, maybe new year with huge years oh associates talking about that was like the little stop Clay Mason like Rudolf yeah, but those one for four new year's, and that was the baby that the huge years we took his hat off his ears, a pop out no woman, Chaster ISM.
What it sounds like when he took his ears like that, it's like actually but always felt bad, because I thought so cute little cremation baby here was that the crux of either like he just had big ears and everybody laughed at me. I can't run out any finally found a home or something good cause, there's nothing sadder than a homeless baby. On new year's near figures, Chuck Josh. Have you ever heard of her office. I have you, wanna talk a bit about her awful assure journey back to fourth century BC or, as you like, to say BC. The new BC, he was the is known ass, the Father of Anatomy yeah in one of the ways that he became known as the Father of Anatomy was by dissecting vivisecting life. Human beings, yes live wells, but their life could ever, but it can ever stead through life. Human human patients,
dissecting for for science right in a bloody arrive in pain. They were criminals right many times, yes No we're talking about human experimentation were basing this on an article written by the fine, esteemed writer, Robert Lamb, and he starts out paid zero with them. This account of her office cutting through the eyeball yeah of a guy who is strapped to a table, and I guess something stuffed in his mouth, the muffled strange, but his eyeballs b I set it in front of a group of surgeons by Hurrah Phyllis online gambling once more. The master parts flesh interest buddy maze of arteries and muscle we should. An hour, and he read it and salary at his good stuff. So
Apparently, this guy there dumb that that Robert writing about his victim was one of the more than six hundred that were vivisecting at the hands of her awful us over the course of his lifetime. Right, yes, for alive prisoners now, so that's correct sickening! It is for, if it right, but it was apparently par for the course right. Yet the timeshare saw these people. Why would you? Why would you dissect alive person or vivisectors? I personally think is dissect of his dead and vivid sector. If they're alive is it I believe so? Well I mean there's, there's there's reasons for it. You wouldn't want to justify it, but they were doing
because sometimes I just need a human to perform an experiment on and sometimes a kid ever done, do the job, and before there were scruples they would Ino do it on life purse. Instead of like an animal test right, apparently back in her office as age also, they thought the air was carried in the circulatory system rather than blood, which is weird has a few vivisecting person. Blood comes out her, although I imagine air does too, since you can't see it they're like oh, it's air, the suggest something in disguise the father of anatomy. He s come on. Here's the big ironic twist, all of his writings that he often notes he took over the scholarly works he created based on the deaths or the intolerance
pain experienced by the six hundred people were lost. Yet when the library of Alexandria burned in two seventy to eighty, rapidly devolving sounded like Joe Joe. So what do we tell people? That is sure Jerry got us a little gifts for Christmas. A little were sound machine in the funny thing is that she asked but on the De L and we just told a hundred thousand people, yeah yeah the other thing is: is she actually said we could use it? I thought she was gonna say we're here, but you can never use this right and she encouraged to seize. It is well right so check
the idea of somebody rising under the knife, while guy like her office or anybody else with a sharper sharp object, cuts as I've all open to examine the nerves inside is pretty horrific idea. Indeed, in the problem, is this kind of thing didn't end in eighty two? Seventy two now it continued on. Apparently, history is littered with human experimentation. Yes, so much so that they were body snatching problems in the nineteenth century, because medical schools needed bodies right there. That you couldn't, in the nineteenth century, by the nineteenth century, couldn't vivisecting anybody you weren't supposed seizure and also because of the puritanical ideals you couldn't do any kind of dissection cadavers you right now, corsican, right of which is a good move. The occurs,
like. You said there is a lot of gray, robbing going on to supply the medical schools who still needed this knowledge and wanted it and were willing to pay grave robbers. Were the appetite. Do you remember back in eighteen, eighty nine when they found some bones? Actually, ninety eight hundred bones in the basement of Medical College, Georgia yeah. I did not know tat, they were did they dated back to the nineteenth century and they were linked to rob graves. Oh yeah, that's crazy! In that it is so blue. You know! That's if you don't It covers a few there. Also. If you wanted to experiment on alive living thing, then you would now have to go the route of like chimps and rabbits and mice
rats right which actually, what we ve done it from. What I understand is with you and experimentation we ve put lower and making our quotes here. Lower species yeah in between us and initial discovery by either promised back in the data. They did the same thing, but they considered lower species other humans, specifically convicts yeah or poor and destitute dries exactly the convicts Fisher convicts have pretty much always got pretty bad as far as human experimentation goes, but yeah. So these days we do put rabbits and rats in dumb, chimps and mechanics and in between us, and you know not knowing,
Drug will deal or something like that, but really ultimately still ends up to humans. Sure, and one of the reasons why? Because you know you can't eat a day, we don't even know whether not animals experience happiness. As you know today, how can we figure out if their hallucinating yeah, you sure they can herself report here? asked questions every now and then right and then also I mean, if you're doing, if you're making a drug for humans, you eventually have to find out exactly what it does to human right. Now have the same effect on a rat, although it will probably be clarity and what we're gonna do that in a minute or should we talk about some of the horrific things that have happened throughout our history? Joshua? Don't forget the whole em there's another there's another route. You could take. Oh yeah. I know it self experimentation, yes, living your living self experimenting on yourself, which I mean there have been some famous
samples of this yes famously appear and Marie Curie earned a Nobel Prize in Physics for irradiation, research, yeah, and they did this pie taping radium salts to their skin and seen what happened right So this one way to do it. Another guy who famously tried his his research out on himself as Albert Hoffman. Really who created, LSD, right and apparently, At a diary where he writes about it by cried home after injecting himself Adela, and he had no bike he had a bike, but he was like wow. Nothing is real and I really feel like listening the pink Floyd the yet to be discovered, pink Floyd yet to be born. I think even so check self experimentation has its own flaw. Right. If lawyers vivisecting in eyeball, you do to yourself, you can't do that more than once now, Probably wouldn't even do it at one time yet so really there,
is a lot to be gained from vivisecting human beings. We dont do it and whether it is wise because its horrific, so yes, we talk about some of the horrific human experiments that litter history, J, Marian SAM's, the neighboring about that is considered to be father of Gynecology Voyage Marian SAM since and he even became the president of the enemy in eighteen. Seventy six rut, but he developed experimental surgeries by testing them on african slaves. Many times, thou, anesthesia, yeah, dark side for Sherman yeah. I would call the dark side yet he gets lauded Pro many circle still today he does. Apparently that was what we think of the Nazi suspect. We will talk about them in a minute, but the? U S has a really early history of human experimentation. Again
name Doktor LEO Stanley, injected prisoners at San Quentin, with animal testing to a slow or reverse aging, which did not work out near nineteen, o six yeah, cholera, experiments, honour and the Philippines conducted by us. Nineteen fifteen pellagra experiments in Mississippi right then, apparently we're talking about how prisoners of always got in a bad wrap up until the nineteen Seventys in the United States, pretty much all pharmaceuticals were tested on convicts No he's not want to break the law. Now, I wonder you know people harking back to like the the golden age when there is less crime unless violence and rapture, I wonder how much of it had to do with the fact that if you went to prison like you would be experiment Yeah. I wonder if you know that, though the prey wasn't widely reported till you get to prison, then you're, like oh oops, yet its yeah had
right, but I imagine no recidivism rates for the bone Edward. You were pretty low here, you're, probably right so Chuckie. No also the United States was huge into compulsory, still sterilization. I didn't under that logistics movement. Ok, so between. I guess the early nineteen hundred the first decade of the twentieth century, up until the seventies, I think, maybe the nineteen eighty one sixty four thousand people in the United States were sterilised against their will like while epileptics the mentally handicapped, blind, deaf, mutes, schizophrenia, x and native Americans. Right guests are well, sometimes unknowingly, unbelievable. Yet, which are you that's, not necessarily inexperience, because you know exactly what's gonna happen.
When the prisons gonna be sterilizing, etc. But if you look at it as eugenics, its, it is kind of larger experiment to basically created great race. My another eugenics, the popularity I mean it was well known. This is going on. This was in a secret government program right like encounter right end. There was public support for until war war, to which remember actually can you remember to the future? Yes, when we talk about mercenaries right rang were working, just everything guided the Nazis really lead the way when it comes to human experimentation.
Everyone knows against stirred the Jews gipsies anyone they felt like targeting. They would do things like freezing them to research. I prefer MIA that actually came became huge later there, hypothermia researches, like really use, still more get into a cat. They put them in the compression chambers to test the effects of high altitude flight, which the it doesn't get much worse than that and a sterile asean experiments. As well like the US doing, they would use
phosphorus incendiary phosphorus devices to figure out how to treat phosphorus burns. Japan was another country their unit, seven thirty, one very famous unit, reportedly killed more than ten thousand chinese Corinne and Russian appeared abuse yet to develop biological weapons and test. Stefan and basically right. So the Nazis in particular face the music at Nuremberg and there is in part to the Nuremberg trials called the doctors trials in. I think up a bunch of the guys like seventeen were convicted in most of them, I think were hanged, really yeah and a lot of these guys cases were. Do we didn't break any law? There's no lawful, outlying rov. What to do when your experimenting on human rights in a lot of stuff followed the same
in a protocol that we had before the war right, my which is just horrendous, but in a lot of cases it was actually true right. So one of the results of the Nuremberg trial was the Nuremberg code. Where the international community said, we need to outline some some guidelines for human experimentation right and, if I think, there's like to a ten points to ten large overviews to human experimentation guidelines- and it focuses on reducing fear and paying rent is comfort in the experiment, subjects it can't be coerced. It has to be willing to have to be informed. What's his cover by what said under Gina, like what document or organization as honour, I dont, probably the union. I would think you would have something to do with the EU thinks. But yes, but it's very famous called
I remembered coat right. Then it solves like the moral quandary jealousy extreme measures, Jean Hackmen, he great yeah. So you know like, in the anything earn a sewer somehow Jean Hackmen like if you had to kill wine to save a million when you have to do it, and so the Nuremberg code solve that. An answer by the way is now you wouldn't kill one. Yet that's the old age or question no killing to save many, which is a very utilitarian view of of looking at things like gets. You kill one person to save a million the horse. You do, but we as an international collective of decided that you don't do that. One person's life is worth as much as a million people's potential lives right. So that brings us to the real quandary, though it with human experimentation is what do you do with this information that is gained from me?
awful awful experiment brought. A lot of detractors will say that to use this information supports human experimentation right, but then another way of looking at it is proposed, like candy, do a thought experiment of all right. Let's say that you are you walk in on one of these experiments. You say your death is inevitable in it's going to be a painful horrible death, but you can choose whether or not this data there is that your results from your death is suppressed or used right. When you want well in yeah, you know that most people would say why. If I'm going to die, The wager I would want this data to be used. That's the argument, the other side is he had the? U S credible deal there with her, you, seven thirty one another. We we're is such that we have such a shady. Like we use nazi scientists to get us to the moon while this was particularly to keep it from falling into the wrong hands,
we thought hey, rather than give it to the Russians unit. Seven thirty one! Let's cut a deal where the officers responsible for this good immunity from prosecution and war crimes and we get the data and will even give you a little stipend, on the side who gives the money that right was waiting for him up with those biological weapons. Nicely don't write like we said the Nazi hypothermia experiments which are pretty brutal, apparently the they would put you in an icy vat of water right with a thermometer erect them and they found that most people died when unconscious indictments when their body temperature had seventy seven degrees Fahrenheit. Yet such useful information, but no the useful information
in they were looking for ways to revive people suffering for hypothermia, because the Germans were losing so many people on the eastern front in Germany that they, they actually did figure out ways of quickly reviving people suffering from hypothermia. So I put the postwar hypothermia, researchers alike. Dude these people as ghastly these experiments are re, figured out how to revive people suffering from hypothermia. We need that information right. So I think with with that, I guess that group leading the charge not see
data has been used in a lot of ways. But then there should be cited, I think, was the compromise that the right up with you in that it actually worked the other way to I'm. Jewish doctors would later study on victims of starvation in the ghetto in the worst I'll get a writer, and they use that to aid in the study of Hunger Associated Disease right. So they found a way to use it at least right. So we were talking also about how the? U S? Has a nice long, history of horrible stuff, like the Tuskegee experiments. You wanna talk about that. Yes, a forty year, study of us syphilis began in nineteen thirty two and they use african Americans who sought treatment for them.
Disease and they basically straight up, lied and deceive them. Thinking there are being treated right. They they actually didn't use any kind of medical intervention because they wanted to watch the progression of syphilis. Yet they want to see, gets worse, and so they could charge everything out and they had no idea, and then I guess finally and ninety ninety four. Ninety, ninety seven: U S issues a public apology for for this, and there are still some people alive. You were real experimented on unbelievable amino. If we documented the arrest, he experiments that unsuspecting Americans were dose denied and K alter project we did hold. China did me,
yeah, that's a good horse. He looks like our best one. Didn't really did you forget? Well, it was a long time ago I saw where were you can out of? If you remember the beginning, there was a that right, yeah, we'll roleplaying so check. There was some kind of a huge sea change in the way that human experimentation was looked at and carried out when
after was established in the thirty sure, all the sudden there, a review boards in re handles the universities candy stepped in and said. Are we play a big role in this work? In a start, establishing stricter oversight of human experimentation and that's kind, of course, that we followed since then raised hopes drug trials drug trials? Exactly you know any human guinea pigs now I've never done it. But you know phase. One drug trials is usually where you get the most folks, because you need healthy. Healthy individuals were unwilling to risk their health for money and basically what they're doing in these phase one trousered. You know when you see these commercials that rattle off a hundred side effects there.
Still a frightening. They get these from giving these these medications to people in seeing what happens right, yeah, rubber, Lamb put it really well. He said that if your bottle of medication says that it might result in Bower bowel control, problems or suicidal thoughts, you can bet that someone received a paycheck for experiencing them at some point. F exactly so. How would they now, as that's phase one face, two deals with thy dosing inefficiency and face three enlist actual patients who need this treatment? Not not healthy people and people who volunteer for phase one clinical trials are handsomely paid depending on the risk involved, the problems yeah and I mean it's kind of like a vacation, urea FED and your put up, maybe in a hotel or the hospital room, has like video game console watch movies or whatever they just shoot you
or something and then come in like every fifteen minutes or our red ever and say you know like. Have you seen that leprechaun you're talking to earlier again? You know that kind of stuff, but that's where the problems is that some of these put folks bounce from experiment to experiment and INA Comic a half ass living off. That's right! I guess you can. I mean especially dedicated. He talks about land talks about a an article in the new Yorker that is about it's called guinea pegging, I believe in its about assault culture of clinical drug trial participants who have their own like publications, right that show like whose what upcoming drug trials or are in the pipeline and how much they gonna pay and that kind of stuff. So there is a concern that, like these people are kind of hooked on this lifestyle right
My thing is like you to eat his own sure. You know ye, I mean if their, if there are no laws being broken and they're getting paid in their willing to do this, instead of going to catch up delivering pizzas than you now get on your frankly, if they can get my pizza to me and stay safe harm. Other people and deliver delicious pizza still, I don't care if they're in the midst of a drug. Far right, then here's another thing. I didn't Canada is interesting in this article is that they cannot put the pedal to the metal when it comes to these trials because a U S drug patent, only last for twenty years. So if your hung up for a decade in research and testing, which can happen then that they dont started over once you get it approved, you ve got only ten years left to make
serious money right, airy, speedy sings along they do now. If you're running it through university, they generally have what universities have a young, a reputation for being total sticklers when it comes to institutional review boards right right. So as a result, I think there are a lot of drug companies have found there. If you run it instead, through a private organisation that does the clinical trials, you are you and all of a sudden, you can walk around a lot of these ethical guidelines or in safe conditions in yet again out sourcing to private contractors for money. It sat the way to get around things exactly awful. That's cool experimentation! There's a is a really cool article. It slightly outside of the hostile, forts voice, Weber, land, put his all in all into put his lamp stamp on it. He d at the very least you gotta repay zero, and I defy you to just repaid zero. Yet,
Thus, you got there pigs euros really page one. We just that's the insider lingo. Here we still chuck and I worked for more than two years. We still never figured out why they call it a nice idea. So if you want to read page zero of how human experimentation works, you can type inhuman experimentation in the handy search bar ass, the forks dot com, and I guess you could say that that leads us to listen or me. Yes, Josh. This is about narco states. I remember notice, dates and call it narco state in our food. This is from a crystal. You actually had right, MR back in Syria, boy or girl said never heard that name and crystal dude. So I kissed her says: I've currently live in war as Mexico. What yeah
exactly as we covered, whereas pretty thoroughly yeah. It is sad to stand out as a dangerous narcos on, rather than being recognised for a decent achievement, but things here are indeed pretty crazy. Murders are super high and have tragically law some friends throughout the year as if this wasn't enough, even the government is messing with this. As I had an experience last July, my parents happen on a clothing shop. We were asked by some federal agents to give out it big amount of money. Two hundred and fifty thousand. U S dollars wholly headache, just because, of course, my family refused to do so. A week later,. The king was in order to close and empty my parents shop and locked up my dad. We gave a smaller amount just so he was released and we thought it would just in there. But to our surprise, a month later, we were surrounded by about twenty agents holding an apprehension order to take both my parents charging them for supposedly commercializing party clothing, which was a trumpet charged with lower edge
I was left alone with my three younger brothers for more than three months until the agent on top agreed to let them out of prison for fifty thousand dollars, and the case was closed, the sick experience and thank God it was finally over throughout this three months of grief. You guys were right there with me and you're nice distraction from my awful situation at a time that was clearly troubling, and I want to thank you for that probably doesn't mean the same to you guys, but it was helpful in some way. For me, I no longer want to live in this place and I'm just looking forward to moving to the U S as soon as possible or Beth. I know so. I just want to share this insane merry Christmas, so We had some angry people write him by the way about me saying we should just drop
the borders and that anyone in not just want to say to those folks think about people like Crystal here who are just dying to get to the United States because of stuff like this. In, U S represents. You know something something great to them, and we should forget that, though, that this oh my horse and I'm getting off of it thanks to do. We have a horse effect now I'll see we ve got something close to it, and that would be where, if you have an email about sleeping certain death being extorted by the mexican military or any kind of unjust story right you could send it in an email to stuff podcast at wait happy new year by year, happy new year. Crystal regard your life. Yes,
like everybody who made it through two thousand, I made it through two thousand nine at how stuff works that come more on this and thousands of other topics visit. How works dot com what more house words check out our blogs on the house of works that come home, brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camry. It's ready are you text. They will be before you know it everybody but relax because H in our black as your one stop tack shop, their tax pressure experts, certified and train and eighteen are black, has up front transparent pricing, which means you know the price before
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Transcript generated on 2020-01-28.